Is WBL based on retail price or resale price?
Is WBL based on retail price or resale price?
Retail. On character creation, you use the purchase price of the item to determine how much to subtract from your wealth.
Thanks for the responses. I figured it was retail-based, but didn't want to read the CRB (lazy.)
After some pretty major hauls and the introduction of a pair of new characters, PC wealth has kind of come into question. In an effort to clarify some things, I made a spreadsheet that keeps track of what the character paid for an item versus how much it is worth. I think that's an accurate reflection of overall value/wealth.
Don't forget when they sell it they still do so at half price. Wealth by level and the wealth by encounter charts assume that some wealth will be used up and lost as the party gains levels. This happens mainly in the form of potions, wands, and other expendables (or expensive spells like greater restoration) but can include the sale or loss of more permanent items too.
Don't forget when they sell it they still do so at half price.
Right - that's a major function of the spreadsheet.
When we started play, we just sort of grabbed whatever was most useful for X character. Later on that process sort of broke down (adding in the 2 new PC's has made things a little bit tricky.) Really, the spreadsheet is more for tracking whose got X and what its worth from either a resale or WBL perspective.
LazarX - the point is to visually see whose got what in their inventory versus what they want from any particular loot pile. Believe me, preparing this sheet was very enlightening.
It also prevents teleporting wands, potions and the like from the party loot pile.
Bob can't suddenly say, "Oh yeah I have the party's wand of (X) so I'll use it."
Party loot...
Currently we have 3 major items that are considered to be party items.
- Folding Boat: this is a useful item, I think it could legitimately be claimed, but it works as a party-use item.
Bag of Holding, type IV: strongest player is carrying this thing. Again, I think it should be claimed but they're not having it.
Wand of Dimension: currently carried by the Witch. She says "I'll use it for the party, but it ain't mine." I get that. It's like when the Fighter buys a wand of Cure Lights for the Cleric.
Our current method of treasure distribution is to add up the entire resale value of all items and divide the product by 5. After that, people start "buying" items (at wholesale prices) from the pile. They get whatever they want plus the remaining cash. It's a little sterile, but it works.
Items that just "work" for a particular character might not be "bought and sold" using the above method. I don't know how that's gonna work out, but I think we can avoid hard feelings with judicious use of diplomacy. :)
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Party loot...
Currently we have 3 major items that are considered to be party items.
Folding Boat: this is a useful item, I think it could legitimately be claimed, but it works as a party-use item.
Bag of Holding, type IV: strongest player is carrying this thing. Again, I think it should be claimed but they're not having it.
Wand of Dimension: currently carried by the Witch. She says "I'll use it for the party, but it ain't mine." I get that. It's like when the Fighter buys a wand of Cure Lights for the Cleric.Our current method of treasure distribution is to add up the entire resale value of all items and divide the product by 5. After that, people start "buying" items (at wholesale prices) from the pile. They get whatever they want plus the remaining cash. It's a little sterile, but it works.
Items that just "work" for a particular character might not be "bought and sold" using the above method. I don't know how that's gonna work out, but I think we can avoid hard feelings with judicious use of diplomacy. :)
Remember that WBL is a baseline of fairness, not a hard cap on how much an individual character can have. Bringing in a new character with normal WBL is fair relative to a party of similarly-equipped adventurers. In an organic game, characters can trade items, decide to equip one character better than the others (for instance, loading up the party Fighter with gear if the other members are casters) so long as the overall distribution (wealth divided by number of party members) is somewhere around the baseline of WBL. So long as you're within, say, plus or minus 25% of standard WBL (a fair amount of leeway in any case, though less than WBL is inadvisable for inexperienced parties), things should be relatively balanced in accordance with official adventure paths.
I've probably misunderstood you and am preaching to the converted, but eh.
Don't forget that wealth by level is only counted for equipment that helps you on the adventure. You have a 1m gp castle back at home? Wonderful -- but it's not going to help you when your up to your hips in drow slaves thousands of miles away in the underdark. Likewise your baron title isn't likely to be of much value in the mana wastes.
Also don't fall into the current WBL trap. My friends other group doesn't keep track of players current wealth they just make sure they aren't over equipped, This leads to the DM constantly throwing things CR+6 at the party because they steamroll his encounters with consumables (which are no longer counted as part of their equipment after use). So they've got things like an archer with drow poison just pumping bad guys with full attacks worth of saves.
I am the only one who figured out why their DM keeps killing them out of frustration but my friend is having fun with it so he doesn't say anything.
Don't forget that wealth by level is only counted for equipment that helps you on the adventure.
I would say WBL is anything you take with you, wherever you go. :)
I'm not worried that we're over the suggested WBL; rather I'm only concerned that the two new party members are nowhere near the leaders (over 100k.) I think that loot hauls to come will probably address that difference.
I would just add that a magic items listed GP value isn't always an accurate guide for how much it is "worth". This is especially true for some of the misc items. For example, a helm of underwater action is worth 28,000gp. However some campaigns could go from level 1-20 without this item ever being used. I might only value this item at half, unless I thought it might be more useful then say, a potion of water breathing. On the other hand, in an underwater campaign, the helm could be the most valuable item in the game.
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Don't forget that wealth by level is only counted for equipment that helps you on the adventure.I would say WBL is anything you take with you, wherever you go. :)
Well your suggestion doesn't actually fit what wealth by level says it takes into account. Have 24 large +1 greatswords but no means of using them? Then they are bunk as far as wealth by level is concerned. Same with treasure or coins. Until you can actually use it it's a hindrance more than anything (in the form of encumbrance).
Now once those swords are sold and the treasure spent on something you can use -- then it has value. Or if you could use the treasure to get ahead in the adventure (say by hiring a local tribe of orcs, or bribing guards, etc). But until it has ready use it's of no value to WBL.
[if you]Have 24 large +1 greatswords but no means of using them? Then they are bunk as far as wealth by level is concerned.
Oh absolutely, I agree. That's cargo is what that is. Of course it could represent potential WBL as a trade resource.
Don't forget that wealth by level is only counted for equipment that helps you on the adventure.I would say WBL is anything you take with you, wherever you go. :)
I'm not worried that we're over the suggested WBL; rather I'm only concerned that the two new party members are nowhere near the leaders (over 100k.) I think that loot hauls to come will probably address that difference.
Note that an organically-equipped character will have a lot of unsynergized items and other useless knick-knacks. A character that is created at high level using WBL will have a fully synergized set of items with no chaff. The organic players should have a much higher wealth total than the new players, if you want to keep relative power levels balanced. I recommend a 2:1 ratio for "full organic" (ie no crafting, no access to magic shops) and a 1.5:1 ratio for "partial organic" (a moderate amount of purchases/sales and a small amount of crafting). I would only have the ratio approach 1:1 if you've been doing completely custom treasure this whole time.
My Kingmaker party's problem is that we have crafting feats that effectively double our WBL.
For example, we find a Wand of Something We Don't Want. We sell it for half price. Then for half price we craft a Wondrous Item of Win.
Another party without wondrous item crafting would pay full price for what they specifically want, and have only have the net worth of "fits our party" magic items.
True, the feats could have been spent on something else. But merely having one character take Craft Wondrous Item allows the majority of this effect.
My Kingmaker party's problem is that we have crafting feats that effectively double our WBL.
For example, we find a Wand of Something We Don't Want. We sell it for half price. Then for half price we craft a Wondrous Item of Win.
Another party without wondrous item crafting would pay full price for what they specifically want, and have only have the net worth of "fits our party" magic items.
True, the feats could have been spent on something else. But merely having one character take Craft Wondrous Item allows the majority of this effect.
there is to much time in king maker to keep crafting in check. I recomend that only let them craft between mods. Other than scrolls, wands, & potions. Other wise crafting out of control in that path.
You mean you have craft skills which let you create wealth. Craft skills have no affect on WBL.
Really?
So if you craft, say, a Mithral Chain Shirt +2, it has no effect on the receiving character's WBL? If that's what you're saying, you're wrong. Whoever gets that shirt, whatever price they pay, their WBL just went up by 5100gp.
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You mean you have craft skills which let you create wealth. Craft skills have no affect on WBL.Really?
So if you craft, say, a Mithral Chain Shirt +2, it has no effect on the receiving character's WBL? If that's what you're saying, you're wrong. Whoever gets that shirt, whatever price they pay, their WBL just went up by 5100gp.
You misunderstand (and it is understandable that you are, so don't take that as a negative statement) -- the character's actual wealth goes up yes -- but the amount of wealth he should have doesn't.
The GM must balance the fact he now has the item that raises his actual wealth in comparison for where his wealth should be either by limiting future rewards of wealth, or by causing the removal of wealth (either by theft, destruction, or other such means) in order to 'rebalance' the character's actual wealth with where the wealth should be.
AND wealth by level does assume that at times the character will be over or under that number -- it's an average for across a level rather than a pinpoint specific that the character must be following at all times.
So crafting does add to the character's actual wealth -- but it doesn't change where the character should be according to the standards of the game.
*And a sidenote for those lurking -- Wealth by level is a guidelines for the standard assumptions of the game designers. It is not "the rules" or even something that needs to be agonized over too much. IF your game is working and everyone is over wealth by level by 20% -- who cares? Again if your game is working and everyone is under wealth by level by 20% -- who cares? HOWEVER if your game is having problems (either the PCs are having too easy or too hard of a time) consider looking at the wealth by level of the party real quick -- it can provide a barometric reading of what might be causing the problem. Basically put the wealth by level guidelines are a tool for a GM to balance his table and to help him have an idea of where everything is as a standard for the game -- not rules for where his game has to be.
there are a few flaws with sticking to the wealth by level charts like glue
there are literally character options that are intended to let you cheat the wealth by level charts.
there are items that do not provide sufficient bonus for thier price, like guns
and there are items that really provide no real bonus for thier price, like a bardic puppeteer's marionette, a baron's title, or one's clothing. i don't care whether you dress in gothic lolita fashion, a seifuku, prison stripes or a straightjacket. clothing is clothing.
When creating high level characters in our group, we make people pay full price for items UNLESS they invest in crafting feats, at which point we let them get them for the crafting price (provided they are able to make it).
I prefer to think of the WBL rules as "guidelines" in which you don't have to be perfectly in line with.
The only time WBL is wonky is creating higher level characters. They're great GUIDELINES to providing/limiting PC power since such a large portion of their power is decided by gear (or rather what they can buy).
It has been my experience that about 10%-25%, it varies, of party treasure is cash. Since cash can be turned into an item worth twice as much through crafting, and that crafting character or the character the item is crafted for can then easily exceed WBL expectations, it's reasonable to put a limit on how much can be bought at "crafters' discount" when creating a higher level character. A lot of DMs just say "here you go, here's 45,000g spend it how you want" and to a crafter that's 90k not 45k. Not letting someone get some sort of advantage out of taking a crafting feat is unfair, so I feel it's reasonable to say "you have 37,500g to purchase items at Suggested Retail (book) price, and 7,500g to spend however you wish."
I can't think of a better way to break the intention of WBL by letting players use crafting feats to inflate the starting value.
On the other hand, there's an opportunity cost to picking crafting feats vs. encounter-valuable feats.
Which probably doesn't mean you should effectively have double the wealth, but probably shouldn't mean nothing when weighing how much treasure someone should have to be on par, either.
I really don't see a problem with allowing crafting costs if one invests the feats into it. It isn't unfair to anyone since even fighters can choose to take crafting feats if they want now.
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I use a Sleight of Hand discount. If characters have Sleight of Hand, I give them a 100% discount to represent having stolen their gear.
"So I stole all my gear from an archmage; do I get another 880,000gp of stuff now? Okay, here's 880,000gp of stuff. I stole that from the herald of a deity. Uh, so I guess I get another 880,000gp of stuff?" :D
Especially on character creation, I view WBL as the retail value of stuff that they currently have. Things like MIC and sleight of hand are ways to increase your wealth once game play starts. I assume that your character got their WBL by doing what-ever they usually do before the campaign started. If it's thievery, then that's how much you managed to steal before the campaign started etc.
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Especially on character creation, I view WBL as the retail value of stuff that they currently have. Things like MIC and sleight of hand are ways to increase your wealth once game play starts. I assume that your character got their WBL by doing what-ever they usually do before the campaign started. If it's thievery, then that's how much you managed to steal before the campaign started etc.
Agreed; the same premises should also be applied to crafting and other such things. :)