Eidolons and traits


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

Ok there is a trait that reads as follows:

Magical Knack: You were raised, either wholly or in part, by a magical creature, either after it found you abandoned in the woods or because your parents often left you in the care of a magical minion. This constant exposure to magic has made its mysteries easy for you to understand, even when you turn your mind to other devotions and tasks. Pick a class when you gain this trait--your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current hit dice.

Now my question is, if I take that as a 1st level summoner and my next two levels are going to be fighter, can I say that, that trait applies to my eidolon since the summoner class says that summoning an eidolon counts as casting summon monster?

I mean it does say that the abilities for the eidolon are as if that is your level in summoner. Please let me know asap. Playing tonight and want to have the summoner done before we start. Thank you.

Dark Archive

No. Eidolons are not based on caster level.


Caster level and class level are not the same thing. You can get traits and such that increase your caster level, but that does not effect your class level, which is what Eidolons go off of.

Sovereign Court

Jadeite wrote:
No. Eidolons are not based on caster level.

Then why does it say that their abilities are based on what level of summoner you are? And by abilities I mean EP, NA, and HD. I know you don't get the actual listed abilities that a summoner gets unless you take the levels of summoner. But it says that if you are a 2nd level summoner these are the HD NA and EP that the eidolon would have. And if I were a summoner 1 and a fighter 1 with that trait, I would be a summoner two for caster level... Thats the only thing thats confusing me. I mean I know they are not an actual spell but the opperate on the fact that the summoners caster level is a certain number.

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:
Caster level and class level are not the same thing. You can get traits and such that increase your caster level, but that does not effect your class level, which is what Eidolons go off of.

So what trait will allow me to do something like what I'm wanting to where I can take a level or two of fighter but keep moving my eidolon up?

Dark Archive

Class levels aren't the same as caster levels.
There's nothing that allows a summoner to advance his eidolon while multiclassing. For a good reason.
Druids can take boon companion, but that does not apply to eidolons.


There isn't one. What you're wanting is a trait to allow you to essentially gain two whole levels worth of the main class feature, which is far beyond the scope of a trait. It would be like taking a level of Wizard, then two levels of fighter, and still wanting your 2nd level spells.

The only conceivable way I could think of to do it is to see if your GM will allow you to apply the Boon Companion feat to your Eidolon, but I personally don't think it would be balanced in the slighest.


DragonKnight03 wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
No. Eidolons are not based on caster level.
Then why does it say that their abilities are based on what level of summoner you are? And by abilities I mean EP, NA, and HD. I know you don't get the actual listed abilities that a summoner gets unless you take the levels of summoner. But it says that if you are a 2nd level summoner these are the HD NA and EP that the eidolon would have. And if I were a summoner 1 and a fighter 1 with that trait, I would be a summoner two for caster level... Thats the only thing thats confusing me. I mean I know they are not an actual spell but the opperate on the fact that the summoners caster level is a certain number.

The abilities are based off of summoner level. As an example if you are a 10th level summoner, but have a trait or feat that lets you operate as 2 levels higher than your summoner level for X reason then you are a 12th level caster, but your summoner level is still 10. Caster level is a generic term applied to anyone that can cast spells. Summoner levels are levels specifically in the summoner class. If the feat that increased caster levels also increased summoner(READ class levels) then your BAB, Saves, skill points, and so on would increase also.


DragonKnight03 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Caster level and class level are not the same thing. You can get traits and such that increase your caster level, but that does not effect your class level, which is what Eidolons go off of.
So what trait will allow me to do something like what I'm wanting to where I can take a level or two of fighter but keep moving my eidolon up?

There is no such thing, and there probably won't be. There is a feat for animal companions, but Eidolons are so much more powerful that they are not likely to ever see such as thing.

Sovereign Court

ok so I'm going to have to rebuild. Thanks for the help and I have just three more questions.

1. If my dex is 15 so I can take twf and I summon my eidolon which brings my dex down to 12 can I no longer use twf?

2. If I give my eidolon another set of arms can he wield two handed weapons when twf since he'll essentually have two hands on each side of his body to hold the weapons with.

3. If I'm wearing armor and my eidolon has all his armor points designated to natural armor, do I still get the armor bonus from the armor I wear?

Just letting you know for all three questions that I went synthesist alt and it says me and him are one in the same being.


DragonKnight03 wrote:

ok so I'm going to have to rebuild. Thanks for the help and I have just three more questions.

1. If my dex is 15 so I can take twf and I summon my eidolon which brings my dex down to 12 can I no longer use twf?

2. If I give my eidolon another set of arms can he wield two handed weapons when twf since he'll essentually have two hands on each side of his body to hold the weapons with.

3. If I'm wearing armor and my eidolon has all his armor points designated to natural armor, do I still get the armor bonus from the armor I wear?

Just letting you know for all three questions that I went synthesist alt and it says me and him are one in the same being.

1. You should still be able to use it. If someone's strength is dropped below 10 they can still power attack.

2.You should be able to, but you will suffer big penalties because the offhand weapon is not a light weapon.
3.Natural armor and the armor bonus to AC stack so barring a rule that says otherwise there should be no issue.

That synthesis look really powerful if it allows you wear armor, since a normal Eidolon could not, but in your care the eidolon is not wearing the armor you are unless I missed a rule somewhere.

PS:You might want a 2nd opinion on number 3. I could not find anything, but I only skimmed the book(ultimate Magic) also.

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:


That synthesis look really powerful if it allows you wear armor, since a normal Eidolon could not, but in your care the eidolon is not wearing the armor you are unless I missed a rule somewhere.

PS:You might want a 2nd opinion on number 3. I could not find anything, but I only skimmed the book(ultimate Magic) also.

Thats where I got my info from too. All I read on anything is that he cant wear armor because it messes with the link but that I can. And that I can designate his armor to be either type I want.

What would you say the penalties to using two two handers would be with two actual hands on each weapon?


DragonKnight03 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


That synthesis look really powerful if it allows you wear armor, since a normal Eidolon could not, but in your care the eidolon is not wearing the armor you are unless I missed a rule somewhere.

PS:You might want a 2nd opinion on number 3. I could not find anything, but I only skimmed the book(ultimate Magic) also.

Thats where I got my info from too. All I read on anything is that he cant wear armor because it messes with the link but that I can. And that I can designate his armor to be either type I want.

What would you say the penalties to using two two handers would be with two actual hands on each weapon?

I am sure if I am wrong someone will be more than happy to correct me on the armor. As for the two weapons it is the same penalties for having a weapon that is not light in both hands. The penalty is -4,-4 if you have the TWF feat. If you don't have the feat then it is -6, -10.

Sovereign Court

awesome. and this last one should end it.

using synthesist, if i have the ability to use a certain weapon then my eidolon should also have that ability when we are together correct?


DragonKnight03 wrote:

awesome. and this last one should end it.

using synthesist, if i have the ability to use a certain weapon then my eidolon should also have that ability when we are together correct?

From what I understand when you meld with the Eidolon it gives its body to you to use so you are the one doing everything. You just have the Eidolon's powers tacked on to yourself so it should not be an issue.

Ultimate Magic:While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:
DragonKnight03 wrote:

awesome. and this last one should end it.

using synthesist, if i have the ability to use a certain weapon then my eidolon should also have that ability when we are together correct?

From what I understand when you meld with the Eidolon it gives its body to you to use so you are the one doing everything. You just have the Eidolon's powers tacked on to yourself so it should not be an issue.

Ultimate Magic:While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

Awesome. Thank you for all the help. If I survive to lvl 5 I'll let you know how it went. And thank you again for all the help.


DragonKnight03 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
DragonKnight03 wrote:

awesome. and this last one should end it.

using synthesist, if i have the ability to use a certain weapon then my eidolon should also have that ability when we are together correct?

From what I understand when you meld with the Eidolon it gives its body to you to use so you are the one doing everything. You just have the Eidolon's powers tacked on to yourself so it should not be an issue.

Ultimate Magic:While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

Awesome. Thank you for all the help. If I survive to lvl 5 I'll let you know how it went. And thank you again for all the help.

No problem.


wraithstrike wrote:

1. You should still be able to use it. If someone's strength is dropped below 10 they can still power attack.

2.You should be able to, but you will suffer big penalties because the offhand weapon is not a light weapon.
3.Natural armor and the armor bonus to AC stack so barring a rule that says otherwise there should be no issue.

That synthesis look really powerful if it allows you wear armor, since a normal Eidolon could not, but in your care the eidolon is not wearing the armor you are unless I missed a rule somewhere.

PS:You might want a 2nd opinion on number 3. I could not find anything, but I only skimmed the book(ultimate Magic) also.

No ability damage or a reduction in your stats can cause you to lose feats. For example if you are using a headband to qualify for combat expertise. If you enter an AMF you lose combat expertise and the whole feat chain.

So in this case when he fuses with the Eidolon and dex drops he loses TWF.


Gignere wrote:

No[,] ability damage or a reduction in your stats can cause you to lose feats. For example if you are using a headband to qualify for combat expertise. If you enter an AMF you lose combat expertise and the whole feat chain.

So in this case when he fuses with the Eidolon and dex drops he loses TWF.

I agree that you can lose access to feats by having ability scores that are insufficient for the feats. However, you don't necessarily lose the whole feat chain. You lose the ability to use any feats whose prerequisites you no longer meet, but you still have those feats for the purposes of prerequisites.

For instance: Level 1 fighter with 14 STR and the following feats:
Power Attack (req 13STR)
Furious Focus (req 13STR and Power Attack)
Improved Overrun (req Power Attack)

He takes STR damage, lowering his STR below 13.

He no longer meets the prerequisites for Power Attack or Furious Focus, since his STR is too low, so he loses the use of those feats. However, he still has both feats.

He is still able to use Improved Overrun, because he still meets all its prerequisites, even though it's part of a power attack feat chain.


Ability Damage and Drain
"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
"Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."
So the Fighter (Str 14) could continue to use Power Attack & Improved Overrun if their Strength was damaged, but not drained (The D20PFSRD website has an error in the table, it does not list Str 13 as a prereq for Improved Overrun)


David Thomassen wrote:

Ability Damage and Drain

"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
"Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."
So the Fighter (Str 14) could continue to use Power Attack & Improved Overrun if their Strength was damaged, but not drained (The D20PFSRD website has an error in the table, it does not list Str 13 as a prereq for Improved Overrun)

Learn something new everyday. Anyway in this case I think it is fair to say that the OP's synthesist will lose TWF when he is fused, unless the eidolon's dexterity is raised to 15+.

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