He doesn't get the bonus spells from his casting score until he is a high enough level to cast the spell. See paladin or bard as a example of this. When they first gain access to a spell level they can cast a spell 0 times a day... Only that from their ability score.
Core rule book page 218
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show
how many spells of each level a character can cast per day.
These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A
spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell
slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high
enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be
his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of
lower levels.Core rule book page 220
Spell Slots: The character class tables show how many
spells of each level each can cast per day. These openings
for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has
the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level
spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score
to cast spells that would otherwise be her due still gets the
slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.Core rule book page 17
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence
score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a
wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.Core rule book page 78
A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each
spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on
Table 3–16. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he
has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–3).I have looked around and have seen several posts and threads stating a low level spell caster cannot use their higher level bonus spells per day to prepare low level spells (either by themselves or) with metamagic feats.
Example 1:
A 1st level wizard with an intelligence of 20 would have a 5th level bonus spell slots per table 1-3 (page 17) so could he use Quicken Spell to cast a magic missile as a swift action?Example 2:
A 1st level wizard with an intelligence of 14 would have a 2th level bonus spell slots per table 1-3 (page 17) so could he use that spell slot to prepare an additional 1st level spell?The general consensus here on the forums is “no, a spell caster...
I can't believe this keeps coming up, but here you go.
The above is directly from a developer, and it is not the first time he has had to come onboard to clear that up. I linked it in case you need it.
edit:In one of the other times he posted on it he actually broke it down as to why, but I was to lazy to search for the long explanation.
Cool, thanks Concerro, nice that a dev was willing to speak out and clear it up, props to paizo for that. Hopefully they will (or already have) added a note in the core book to prevent future confusion.
They feel as thought it is pretty clear so there won't be any updates.
Basically by the rules you can't access slots until you get to a certain level, and there is no rule printed that allows you to get around that. Those charts for caster show when you get access to those slots. In shot the high ability scores get you extra spells, but not early access, which is all the rules say you get.As a general rule unless the rules say you get something you don't get it.
edit:I hope that explains it. :)
Your water example gives specific formula though. It just does not do the math for you that, that says what you can do.
A slot and a spell are not the same things. A slot is a holder that any spell of that level or lower can go into. In short spell slots are accessed by level, and spells are a combination of level and ability score.
Look at the metamagic feats for an example of a slot not being a spell. They increase the slot a spell takes up, but not the actual spell level. The only metamagic feat that actually increases a spell's level is heighten.
Another example:
10th level sorcerer
cha 13
Casting an empowered fireball takes up a 5th level slot and is possible because fireball is a 3rd level spell.
Casting a fireball heightened to 5th level which also takes up a 5th level slot is not possible, because now that fireball is a 5th level spell, but due to a cha of 13 it is beyond what he can do.
edit:removed text
The book says bonus spells come from your ability score. In order to have a bonus in most situations you need a base. As an example you can't get raise to your salary until you have a salary. I am going to assume the designers had the same thought process in mind.
As to why you can't get the slots early it is most likely due to resource management on the NPC and PC side of things. Boosting your ability score and getting access to higher level slots means you can cast more spells per day, and you would probably not ever run out leading to many Nova issues. Nova issues are frowned upon by many. See a psionics thread as an example.
In short it is mostly a game balance issue. Many things in the game are done in the name of balance. An example is keen and improved critical not stacking even though one of them comes from magic and the other is a natural ability.
Don’t get me wrong, I can see why there should be a limit on low level casters with high ability scores though I don’t see why there wouldn’t be a similar issue with a high level caster that has low ability scores. Personally I think that both the spells per day chart and the bonus spell chart should employ “0’s” and even negative numbers to prevent this sort of confusion. I mean there is no reason that a level 20 wizard with an intelligence of 12 would have the same number of 9th level spell slots as a level 20 wizard with a 27 intelligence.
Having the 2 charts with 0’s and neg’s could correct this, it also has the potential to add some nice features that would not otherwise be in the game, like soft starts for spontaneous spell casters for the next level spells.
Example:
A level 3 spontaneous spell caster could have 0 2nd level spells known and 0 2nd level spell slots though if there ability score is high enough they could gain a additional spell slot to use for lower level spells.Example:
A level 20 spontaneous spell caster with a ability score of 10 could have –6 bonus 9th level spells which would nullify the “free” 9th spell slots gained by level advancement.I mean you have 2 limiting factors, level and ability score, so these could work in conjunction for a more consistent and understandable system than there is currently.
Of course this is moot as there has been an official ruling on the matter, though such a change would make for a better overall product and hopefully help with Paiza’s over all success.
I don't understood the discussion is moot, but understanding the why's is never a bad things.
The wizard with the 27 is pumping out 9th level spells. Having a 9th level slot is pretty much wasted space for the int 12 wizard. From a fluff and mechanical view it is really a non-factor. He can have his 2nd level spells, but he won't be doing much with them at those levelsHaving negatives would also bring more math into the middle of a session after an ability drain takes place. Rebuilding characters is one reason the energy drain rules were changed. It is also the reason ability damage does not work like it did in 3.5, so it would really be a step back.
It is kinda simple. You can not gain extra of what you do not have. You do not have the slots, then you can not get the extra ones.
Don’t get me wrong, I can see why there should be a limit on low level casters with high ability scores though I don’t see why there wouldn’t be a similar issue with a high level caster that has low ability scores. Personally I think that both the spells per day chart and the bonus spell chart should employ “0’s” and even negative numbers to prevent this sort of confusion. I mean there is no reason that a level 20 wizard with an intelligence of 12 would have the same number of 9th level spell slots as a level 20 wizard with a 27 intelligence.
Having the 2 charts with 0’s and neg’s could correct this, it also has the potential to add some nice features that would not otherwise be in the game, like soft starts for spontaneous spell casters for the next level spells.
Example:
A level 3 spontaneous spell caster could have 0 2nd level spells known and 0 2nd level spell slots though if there ability score is high enough they could gain a additional spell slot to use for lower level spells.Example:
A level 20 spontaneous spell caster with a ability score of 10 could have –6 bonus 9th level spells which would nullify the “free” 9th spell slots gained by level advancement.I mean you have 2 limiting factors, level and ability score, so these could work in conjunction for a more consistent and understandable system than there is currently.
Of course this is moot as there has been an official ruling on the matter, though such a change would make for a better overall product and hopefully help with Paiza’s over all success.
I don't understood the discussion is moot, but understanding the why's is never a bad things.
The wizard with the 27 is pumping out 9th level spells. Having a 9th level slot is pretty much wasted space for the int 12 wizard. From a fluff and mechanical view it is really a non-factor. He can have his 2nd level spells, but he won't be doing much with them at those levelsHaving negatives would also bring more math into the middle of a session after an...
edit:I meant to say "I do understand the discussion is moot."
I don't understood the discussion is moot, but understanding the why's is never a bad things.
The wizard with the 27 is pumping out 9th level spells. Having a 9th level slot is pretty much wasted space for the int 12 wizard. From a fluff and mechanical view it is really a non-factor. He can have his 2nd level spells, but he won't be doing much with them at those levelsstacking meta magic feats or over casting a large number of low level spells, summoning vast hoards of small elementals, that sort of thing.
Having negatives would also bring more math into the middle of a session after an ability drain takes place. Rebuilding characters is one reason the energy drain rules were changed. It is also the reason ability damage does not work like it did in 3.5, so it would really be a step back.the current energy drain wouldn’t be effected so no addition or issue there. As for ability drain, one would still have to reference the bonus spell chart so there is no difference there, though the numbers would change but not that need to reference the chart.
It is kinda simple. You can not gain extra of what you do not have. You do not have the slots, then you can not get the extra ones.one would think however that is not the case, a 16 level spell caster still gains spell slots in levels that they may not be able to cast. But then there is also the issue of paladins for instance, at level 4 they have 0 1st level spell slots however they can gain bonus spells based on there ability score. They are in effect gaining what the do not have.
My point was the with your negatives example a game could come to halt while rebuilding a character. That is what the old versions of ability damage, and energy drain did, so they would view the negatives as going back to the old way of doing things. Most metamagic'd spells still don't equal 9th level original spells, and many still won't be any good. Metamagic feats are generally circumstantial.
The paladin issue is incorrect. That zero is there to allow access. The - is there to prevent access. The two are not the same so there is still no early gain. The game is working as it is intended to work.
It it has a - you have no ablity to cast spells of that level or store lower level spells there. You have simply not unlocked that level of ability.
Now if it has a 0 You still do not gain spells but have access to the slot, If you have a bonus spells for that slot.
Man only a handful of folks ever seem to have this issue. If you read the rules the intent is clear. If you think about it the intent is clear.
You can not use slots you do not have.
No it does not have the dash. He lacks the ablity to cast spells of that level, but has the slots.
A int 14 wizard of 15th level can not cast any spell over 4th level, but he gains the same slots any other wizard gains. He would not gain any Bonus from high Int, nor could he cast spells above 4th level. But he would have the high level slots.
Edit: Case in point all 15th level wizards gain the base number of slots:4 /4/4/4 /4/4/3/2/1
The difference Int makes is what level of spell they can fill them with and if they gain extra.
Dude, you have lost me. Every caster works the very same way. If they are x level then they gain the slots of that level. The Prime stat will give bonus spells once that level has been unlocked.
You always get those slots at X level, even if you can not cast x level spell. Your score has nothing to do when you get your sp[ell slots for your class. As long as you have a score of 11 you gain slots in that class as you level.
Table 1-3 shows bonus spells. if you have a score of 14 table 1-3 shows you gain an extra 1st and 2nd level slot.
Now we shall look at the bard table 3-3. What we see is that a Bard can not have 2nd level slots until he is forth level. He simply does not have them.
The explanation does not break down, it is simple and cut and dry.
You can not have extra of something you do not have at all. You go off of table 3-3 for what level of spells your bard may cast and what level of slots he has access to.
Chart 1-3 shows that your bard {who maxs out at 6th level spells) gets extra 7,8th and 9th level slots if his score goes high enough. But guess what...He can not have those slots even if his score is 100.
Now at 4th level however your Bard would gain another slot.
To offer another angle on Seeker's point (and he is right by the way):
You don't gain bonus slots for a spell level until you are actually able to cast spells of that level due to your class level in a class that grants spell casting ability.
So if you have an Intelligence 20 wizard that is level 1 you don't gain the bonus spell slots for spell levels 2, 3, 4, or 5. Once you hit level 3 in wizard and can cast 2nd level wizard spells then you will gain your 2nd spell level bonus slots from having a high intelligence.
If it worked any other way then any character with a stat high enough to have bonus slots would have bonus slots for all classes that use that specific stat to cast spells.
An example would be a fighter with Intelligence 14 Wisdom 16 and Charisma of 13 having the following bonus slots:
a first and second level wizard bonus slot
a first and second level witch bonus slot
a first and second level magus bonus slot
a first, second and third level bonus slot for cleric
a first, second and third level bonus slot for druid
a first, second and third level bonus slot for inquisitor
a first, second and third level bonus slot for ranger
a first level bonus slot for: Sorcerer, bard, oracle, summoner, and paladin
This is clearly not the case -- why? Because only those that can cast spells of a given class gain bonus spell slots and they specifically only gain bonus spell slots for the spell levels they can cast from their class levels.
The slots are not limited -- your ability to fill those slots with spells of that level are.
If I have a level 15 wizard with a 14 intelligence I have 7th level spell slots -- but I can't actually cast 7th level spells.
Now why do I have those slots? Because a quickened fireball is still effectively a third level spell for all purposes other than the level of spell slot I have to expend to cast it. Also any caster can prepare a lower level spell in a higher level spell slot (though without metamagic feats you don't gain any advantage from doing so).
Basically put the guy can cast fireball (or haste/fly/whatever) more times than a lower level wizard... but can't cast greater teleport like a more naturally talented wizard could.
In the end it's kind of how a fighter's BAB isn't limited by his strength, and the barbarian's hit points aren't limited by his Con Modifier.
Using the fighter example again (wow we are getting a LOT of mileage here):
For the spell caster to get all his bonus slots right from the get go would be like the fighter getting all the bonus hit points he would get from his Constitution score for all levels (1~20).
So the fighter with a 18 Con would have 90 (possibly 94) hit points at first level.
However as a house rule allowing a wizard (or other spell caster) to using his future bonus slots as lower level spells slots would double the number of spells he could cast at first level possibly extending the adventuring day for your group.
A final thought:
The spell caster actually gets additional benefit from his casting stat that no one else gets on top of all the benefits he gets from his stats normally. Everyone gets bonus hit points from a high Con, bonus to hit and damage from strength and bonuses on initiative from Dex as well as bonus skill points from intelligence from a high Int.
Only a spell caster though gets to warp reality with his high casting stat, extra spells and a higher chance of successfully warping reality to their whim with a higher casting stat.
So in a way allowing them earlier access would be like giving them a bonus for having a bonus on an ability.
There is no Inconsistency. At this point I am just gonna stop. You have the answer, and if you do not understand it by this point, Frankly nothing we can say will ever make you.
The paladin issue is incorrect. That zero is there to allow access. The - is there to prevent access. The two are not the same so there is still no early gain. The game is working as it is intended to work.
So the confusion about weather adding a number to a dash or a dash to a number is as intended? Or a spell caster that can’t cast spells of a certain level still having available spell slots and spells known from that level is as intended? The fact that dashes on one chart are treated as 0’s and on another chart they are treated differently negating the formula is as intended?
It’s a math problem and basic addition, 1+2=3 so 2+1=3. the order of the numbers added dose not matter math. We could also treat them as have positive signs in front of them (+1)+(+2)=(+3) and its just a valid of a formula. The break down is in treating the first number differently than the second number when solving the formula. If “dash”+1=1 then 1+“dash” would also =1.
But it doesn’t and there is no rule clarifying it in the books, so what’s intended is open to debate. The fact that feats like quicken spell no longer have a level prereq lends to the idea that the bonus slots where at some point intended to be used by players.
It has been said that the only people that see a problem here are those that choose too, though it appears that the reverse is true, those that don’t see a problem is because they choose not to.
Inside joke-->Hello Seeker this is your buddy Wraith in rules lawyer form. Does it count if we agree under a different alias?
Back to serious mode:
They are treated differently. The dash means the slot is not open at all. The 0 means it is open, but in order to use it you still need a certain ability score. If they intended for them to be the same they would not be treated differently. Notice that for the paladin there is even a note explaining the 0. It is also there for the ranger.
. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Paladin indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level.
Note that it refers you to the ability modifiers and bonus spells section which has been explain to you by a dev basically saying the dash is not open. Then it goes on to explain the 0, which is not treated like the dash is.
Ok, so we are all on the same page,
A spell caster can not have a bonus spell slot of a level that he can not cast. (still not clear on the rule why but that’s neither here nor there at this point).
So the question then becomes, why would a high level spell caster with a low ability score not only learn new spells but also gain the spell slots of spells that they can not cast? (in theory they could even prepare them if needed just not cast them).
In other words,
If bonus spell slots from your ability score are limited by your level,
Then why aren’t spell slots from your level limited by your ability score?
The reason is the designers decided to limit only the spells and not the slots which are different things.
I guess you are looking for a fluff/flavor reason. I look at it like this:As you level you up you get the ability to cast different and higher level spells, but you still need enough mental power to force magic to do your bidding. The higher your stat the more mental power you have.
In game example:
Remember as a wizard levels up he gets higher level spells even if he can't cast them which supports my above position.
The ability to learn the spells and gain the slots, and the ability to cast the spells are not married to each other. You want to see them as one thing when they are not.
Using the fighter example again (wow we are getting a LOT of mileage here):
For the spell caster to get all his bonus slots right from the get go would be like the fighter getting all the bonus hit points he would get from his Constitution score for all levels (1~20).
So the fighter with a 18 Con would have 90 (possibly 94) hit points at first level.
However as a house rule allowing a wizard (or other spell caster) to using his future bonus slots as lower level spells slots would double the number of spells he could cast at first level possibly extending the adventuring day for your group.
A final thought:
The spell caster actually gets additional benefit from his casting stat that no one else gets on top of all the benefits he gets from his stats normally. Everyone gets bonus hit points from a high Con, bonus to hit and damage from strength and bonuses on initiative from Dex as well as bonus skill points from intelligence from a high Int.
Only a spell caster though gets to warp reality with his high casting stat, extra spells and a higher chance of successfully warping reality to their whim with a higher casting stat.
So in a way allowing them earlier access would be like giving them a bonus for having a bonus on an ability.
Even a fighter can warp reality with the excessive use of feats, and they are the only ones that can trade feats out as they level up.
But really it breaks down to damage potential at level 1, a fighter can use their strength bonus for each and every attack and can continue this all day if needed. Spell casters on the other hand could increase their play ability of casting their first level spells up to 10 rounds (or there abouts) which is roughly 1 minute in the game world. Fighters could use a 2 weapon fighting feat to get 2 attacks per round while a spell caster with a stat of 20 and the quicken spell feat could gain a second attack in a round 1 per day for the first 11 levels of game play. Yes they could also quicken a 0...
Fighters can't warp reality. They can do things not possible in our world but so can most archers in pathfinder-land. Rapid and many shot in the middle of combat, and letting all those arrows loose accurately is an example of that.
By warping reality he was referring to things like summoning demons, bring the dead back to life, making people explode literally, change silver to gold, and so on.
I hear what you are saying and you illustrate my point, on the spells per day list dashes and “0’s” are different however on the bonus spell list they are not thus the confusion (this issue apparently keeps coming up, so….)
The dash means no access at all, and the 0 means access, but you still can't use the slot unless your modifier is high enough. I am failing to see the issue here. If the rules state the 0 means you can use it with a certain score, then how is it confusing.
If you can't enter the red building at all, but you can enter the blue building(spell slot with 0) with a key then.......What feat alters energy drain? If I overlooked that one I will be handing it to my next caster. Being energy drained as a caster sucks.
edit:The score is need to prepare the spells not cast them. I will make another post with the supporting rules.
edit 2:Removed misleading information.
Preparing Divine Spells
Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for most divine spells is Wisdom (Charisma for paladins). To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score (or Charisma score for paladins) of 10 + the spell's level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom.
Preparing Wizard SpellsA wizard's level limits the number of spells he can prepare and cast. His high Intelligence score might allow him to prepare a few extra spells. He can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward his daily limit. To prepare a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level.
Spontaneous caster don't have this limitation. It would work because the games only checks for the prereqs.
Edit:If I wake up with a charisma of 24 and get it reduced, then use a spell such as eagle's splendor to get it back to 19 then I have 9th level spells again.
If I start with a 15 and receive the spell then I still have a 19. The game only cares about the score, and so do most GM's. It does not matter when you got it since you never had to prep anything.
The fact that dashes and “0’s” on one chart do not work the same as on the other. You can’t add a dash on spells per day however you can add with them on bonus spell slots.
Yes you can. I was not disagreeing with that. the difference though is that one is absolute access and the other is only access with a certain score.
Spark of Life (Ex): At 2nd level, a savage warrior gains
a +1 bonus on saving throws made against energy drain
and death effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every four
levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.
That is not altering anything. That is just bonus just like the saves regular fighters get vs fear affects.
To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score (or Charisma score for paladins) of 10 + the spell's level.
So it sounds like one casting of owl’s wisdom and your good to go for the day.
If you do it before you prep the spells yes. I thought you were talking about midcombat. You also have to have that score to cast the spell also.
Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Spell Lists. Her alignment, however, may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see chaotic, evil, good, and lawful spells. A cleric must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric's spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric's Wisdom modifier.
All casters work the same with regard to casting spells so you can swap the word cleric out.
-----------------------------------------------------------EDIT: Hold up there is an issue. That one casting won't work.
Spell Selection and Preparation: A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. [b]Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.[b/]
The spells in question only last 1/min per level.
I will also say that is possible to leave some of the slots open during that first hour and then use the 15 minute time to do the rest, but it may take longer than 15 minutes which is already requiring a 15 level caster at the minimum to hook you up.You also need another casting of the spell to actually use the spells later on since you need the higher score to cast anything.
I don't call that a loophole so much as a nuisance.
just so we are clear, there is a problem with a 1st level wizard casting a silenced magic missile however there is not a problem for a sorcerer with a natural 12 cha casting horrid wilting
The minimum spellcasting stat required to cast horrid wilting is 18.
have the cleric use extend spell to get more time, well twice as much time actualy, more than needed for the levels in question.
and or have a hench man/underling do it for you while you prepair, a silenced owl's wisdom or 2 shouldn't disrupt your preperations.
The rules only say it takes more than 15 minutes for 1/4 of his spells. 15 minutes is 1/4 of an hour so it may take 60 minutes for full memorization. Really it is up to the GM for how much longer than 15 minutes though so I can really use that, but is does make sense.
There is still the issue of a 2nd casting needed before combat. My point is that this is not a loophole.
A casting without silences may not count as a disruption. My point was the hour versus the 1 min/level which forces you to take the 15 minutes later during the day to complete any spells not already chosen.
then there is the case of the 16th level sorcerer with a cha of 12 useing an empowered eagles splender to cast 8th level spells...just so we are clear, there is a problem with a 1st level wizard casting a silenced magic missile however there is not a problem for a sorcerer with a natural 12 cha casting horrid wilting?
there is also a problem with treating dashes on the spells per day charts as zero's however there is not a problem treating dashes on the bonus spells chart as zero's?
i must be getting sleepy, but something just dosn't seam right here.
You can't empower eagle's splendor. You can only empower spells with a variable(when you have to roll the dice to get a result such as fireball) number.
Even if you could I have no issue with using the spell to cast the higher level spells, and it seems rules legal to me.
There is an issue with treating the dashes as 0's because they are mechanically different. Treating the dashes as 0's may lead to the nova issue I discussed earlier. The actual 0's are ok because that way you don't get the slot until a certain level. If all dashes were 0's then you could access them at any level once again leading back to the nova issue.
You even agreed with me on the potential nova issue so why would you want access to all the spell slots at level 1 knowing it is an issue, and knowing that by holding them back game balance is held in check.
Your original argument was..
Don’t get me wrong, I can see why there should be a limit on low level casters with high ability scores though I don’t see why there wouldn’t be a similar issue with a high level caster that has low ability scores.
The nova reason is why it is the way it is. As for higher level casters they lose access to their best spells which is basically all a caster has.
It affects high and low level casters, just in not the way you like because you want slots to be removed if the ability score dropped, but since there is no complaint about it, then it is not an issue.
I am not saying the game has no issues, but this is not one of them.
Stealth rules are an issue. Crafting rules are an issue. The grapple rules still seem to be an issue. High level play seems to be an issue for many.
For the sake of my use of the word an issue is something that people constantly complain about. I don't want you to think I don't care about your view on the topic.
just so we are clear, there is a problem with a 1st level wizard casting a silenced magic missile however there is not a problem for a sorcerer with a natural 12 cha casting horrid wiltingThe minimum spellcasting stat required to cast horrid wilting is 18.
I was about to go back and edit to address that. Thanks.
not sure where the rule is, but i'm pretty sure that temporary modifiers don't affect casting ability, so temporary buffs just can't work to let you cast spells you otherwise couldn't cast.
About the reasoning behind not getting spell slots of a high level, as fluff, here's a thought.
Wizard
To cast a third level spell requires the raw magical power of a 3rd level wizard. before then, you just don't have the energy to store that kind of power, so you can't make a fireball, or empower Burning hands (metamagic adds to that raw kind of power). I also don't have the experience with magic to be able to get how casting a fireball actually works so i can't put it in my spell-book.
The thing about high and low int works like this. I'm really clever (20 int) so i am smart enough to understand how to use bat poop to generate a massive explosion from nothing. I'm so clever, in fact, that i can more efficiently use my raw arcane power (spell slots) to prepare an extra casting of fireball (bonus spell) as well as an extra 2nd level spell, and first level magic is so simple to me, that i can prepare 2 extra castings.
Even though i am also smart enough to cast extra 4th and 5th level spells, I don't have the power to do so, and i don't have the experience to understand the actual arcane writings that would let me do the spell.
no matter how smart you are, you can't do calculus if you don't know what the stupid squiggle thing or the Sigma put near some equations means (derivatives, and I forget the other one)
Hope that makes it easier to understand/accept why the mechanic works the way it does. Haven't figured out any other casters yet, but may think about it for fun. =]
not sure where the rule is, but i'm pretty sure that temporary modifiers don't affect casting ability, so temporary buffs just can't work to let you cast spells you otherwise couldn't cast.
The transmuted creature becomes wiser. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom, adding the usual benefit to Wisdom-related skills. Clerics, druids, and rangers (and other Wisdom-based spellcasters) who receive owl's wisdom do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Wisdom, but the save DCs for their spells increase.
The only thing the spell denies are additional spells to your bonus spells to a slot. If you are putting an item on such as an headband that boost a mental stat you have to wear it for 24 hours to get the benefit.
Even the temporary bonus does not deny you the ability to cast and prepare a spell. It even helps with the spell's DC.The rules for ability score are here.
The only thing that is checked when you try to cast or prepare a spell is what you ability score is. Of course if that is the intent then this is a good FAQ post, but in my earlier example of someone getting Int drained, and then having it restored by Fox's Cunning I don't think they would be denied access to their spells.
and as to the - and 0 thing, I'm a 20th level wizard. I have the raw power to will reality to change, or time to stop. I've also been at this a LOOOONG time.
sadly i'm an idiot (say 15 int) and the most complicated spells that i can understand are level 5. sucks to be me.
Now with all that power i have the magical energy to store 4 9th level spells. I jsut don't get any of them. But i do get 5th level spells, and now i have the power and energy to quicken 4 of them every day.
How smart i am doesn't affect my level of godlike power, just what i can do with it. If i were clever i could be more efficient, but the designers didn't want to say that since you're dumb, you can't use that raw power efficiently.
I get why you are saying that there should be a penalty for a low stat, and suggesting that for Low int, you get -1 or -2 bonus spells of high levels, but honestly, that just sucks too much.
perhaps you'd be more receptive to the bonus spell chart if it had 0 written instead of a -. cause that is what it means. you just don't get any bonus spells with a low score, and you just don't get any bonus slots with a low level
not sure where the rule is, but i'm pretty sure that temporary modifiers don't affect casting ability, so temporary buffs just can't work to let you cast spells you otherwise couldn't cast.The transmuted creature becomes wiser. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom, adding the usual benefit to Wisdom-related skills. Clerics, druids, and rangers (and other Wisdom-based spellcasters) who receive owl's wisdom do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Wisdom, but the save DCs for their spells increase.
The only thing the spell denies are additional spells to your bonus spells to a slot. If you are putting an item on such as an headband that boost a mental stat you have to wear it for 24 hours to get the benefit.
Even the temporary bonus does not deny you the ability to cast and prepare a spell. It even helps with the spell's DC.The rules for ability score are here.
The only thing that is checked when you try to cast or prepare a spell is what you ability score is. Of course if that is the intent then this is a good FAQ post, but in my earlier example of someone getting Int drained, and then having it restored by Fox's Cunning I don't think they would be denied access to their spells.
I wouldn't think you should get the ability to prepare or cast spells of a higher level that you could at the beginning of the day.
I'll have to look at the rules for temporary ability damage, and temporary buffs, and how they interact with what you can cast, it's be nice to have the rules posted for the discussion, cause i can't look right now...
not sure where the rule is, but i'm pretty sure that temporary modifiers don't affect casting ability, so temporary buffs just can't work to let you cast spells you otherwise couldn't cast.The transmuted creature becomes wiser. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom, adding the usual benefit to Wisdom-related skills. Clerics, druids, and rangers (and other Wisdom-based spellcasters) who receive owl's wisdom do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Wisdom, but the save DCs for their spells increase.
The only thing the spell denies are additional spells to your bonus spells to a slot. If you are putting an item on such as an headband that boost a mental stat you have to wear it for 24 hours to get the benefit.
Even the temporary bonus does not deny you the ability to cast and prepare a spell. It even helps with the spell's DC.The rules for ability score are here.
The only thing that is checked when you try to cast or prepare a spell is what you ability score is. Of course if that is the intent then this is a good FAQ post, but in my earlier example of someone getting Int drained, and then having it restored by Fox's Cunning I don't think they would be denied access to their spells.
I wouldn't think you should get the ability to prepare or cast spells of a higher level that you could at the beginning of the day.
I'll have to look at the rules for temporary ability damage, and temporary buffs, and how they interact with what you can cast, it's be nice to have the rules posted for the discussion, cause i can't look right now...
I put a link to it in my last post. The spell does not care what your starting ability score was.
Example:If I wake up with a charisma of 24 and get it reduced, then use a spell such as eagle's splendor to get it back to 19 then I have 9th level spells again.
If I start with a 15 and receive the spell then I still have a 19. The game only cares about the score, and so do most GM's. It does not matter when you got it since you never had to prep anything.
The above example was for a sorcerer, and the temporary ability scores rules only restrict bonus spells not spells you can cast.
The transmuted creature becomes wiser. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom, adding the usual benefit to Wisdom-related skills. Clerics, druids, and rangers (and other Wisdom-based spellcasters) who receive owl's wisdom do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Wisdom, but the save DCs for their spells increase.
I guess it's time for a FAQ!
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It's actually right there in the Ability Scores rules. (Though, perhaps, it could be phrased more clearly.)
Abilities and Spellcasters
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details.
(Emphasis mine.)
Seeing that the above text comes right before the bonus spell slots table, it seems clear to me that you don't get the slot until you're high enough level.
(And, yes, I do see SKR's FAQ post, just thought I'd add this for reference.)
yes and the use or multiple use of spells like eagles splendor omits that req.
The minimum spellcasting stat required to cast horrid wilting is 18.
No, not at all. When you cast that spell the enchanced attribute is your new attribute so you are not getting by with a lower score, and more than someone with haste can be said to be getting by with less attacks just because a spell helped them out.
preparing half your spells for a half hour then casting an extended owl’s wisdom then preparing the second half of your spells is only 6 seconds more time in the morning. So not really that much of a problem, just part of your morning preparation.
You said it was covered with one casting of the spell, but it is not. At a minimum you have to cast it twice for the day.
so just cast it twice instead, problem solved.
I see no problem with that.
Well the nova issue isn’t about game balance but peoples perception, again going back to the level 1 fighter with 20 strength reference.
Actually it is about game balance. The falls apart when people are allowed to do things the game did not intend for them to be able to do. low level characters being tagged by an magic missile spell or empowered maximized scorching ray.
For the sake of my use of the word an issue is something that people constantly complain about. I don't want you to think I don't care about your view on the topic.
that’s not a problem, what is a problem is multiple level ups gaining new spell slots and spells known without a problem that the player cant naturally cast. One level I can understand, 2 levels is starting to push it but 6 or 7 levels is getting abusive. Refer to the case of a fighter with a cha 11 taking 1 level of sorcerer to fill the prereq for dragon disciple, leveling up and because some one else cast eagles splendor on them they are able to cast fire ball as there first spell ever.
They could not cast fireball as their first spell ever until they get to be the caster equivalent of a 6th level sorcerer. With one level of sorcerer and two levels of dragon disciple they are only a 2nd level sorcerer for the purposes of casting spells. By the time than can cast fireball they would have to a 7th level dragon desciple, 1st level sorceror, and 1 level of fighter from your example. What you have is a 9th level character that has to have another character burn a spell just so he can cast fireball. He is not good at casting due to the low mental stat. This goes back to my nuisance thing I mentioned earlier. There is no advantage here. To speed things along I thing you should say how this is beneficial to do. Everything you brought has been something that is a hindrance, as opposed to a help for the characters in question. Don't use corner cases. How is this an issue in actual play is something you should use for all of your example. In a game the cleric is not casting a spell on me, just so I can cast fireball. It is just too inefficient to do so.
Going back to the wizard, would it make sense to allow a wizard to train a 9th level spell at 1st level? Then what about training a 9th level spell with a first level ability score. Because that’s how the system works. And this isn’t a problem but allowing a 1st level wizard to cast an additional magic missile because of there high ability score seams to be an issue. It doesn’t seams consistent to me, if one is a problem then why not the other?
We already explained that as you level you learn to unlock higher level slots. That is why. At first level you are barely above apprentice level so the higher level slots are closed to you. If you don't want to accept that reason, that is fine, but we have given you mechanical and fluff reasons as to why.
Most of the rules put game balance first, then they add in the fluff behind it. If you think it is ok for a low level character to get a few extra spells a day then talk to your GM, but I don't think he will go for it. Well, he might, but then you might get tagged with metamagic'd spells that should not be available.
Thanks RD. I was about to make something similar, but I remembered you had just done it.