|
I have a few related questions.
1st) The concept of religious tolerance and “freedom of religion” (freedom of state control or support) seems to me to be a relatively new one.
What were the general attitudes in Medieval Feudal Europe, Feudal Muslim world, Feudal India and Feudal China?
Would these attitudes differ between a monotheistic feudal society and a polytheistic Feudal society?
What would the general attitudes be on Golaron? Would it differ from region to region?
We are starting a Kingmaker campaign, and what would the attitudes be in the River Lands and Brevoy?
What would the limits be of a Monarch’s power? Would he be expected to declare religion x y and z are religions of the state and encouraged? Would a monarch be expected to rule “you may worship whatever religion you want, there are no taxes on religion x or y, but if you want to worship religion z you must pay a tax. Would a monarch be expected to rule, “these religion are legal, these are tolerated and these religion are illegal and you face the penalty of being burned at the stake for worshiping them?
What do you all think?
|
|
As for Feudal Europe, it depends. You've had Bohemia (current Czech Republic) where Husite heresy was drowned in blood, and you had Poland where nobody really cared what the Pope and Inquistion said. Attitudes ran the whole spectrum, but in general Europe was rather deeply intolerant of non-Christian religions, and then split in two during the Catholic-Protestant wars.
Reaper Miniatures
|
I have a few related questions.
1st) The concept of religious tolerance and “freedom of religion” (freedom of state control or support) seems to me to be a relatively new one.
What were the general attitudes in Medieval Feudal Europe, Feudal Muslim world, Feudal India and Feudal China?
Would these attitudes differ between a monotheistic feudal society and a polytheistic Feudal society?
What would the general attitudes be on Golaron? Would it differ from region to region?
We are starting a Kingmaker campaign, and what would the attitudes be in the River Lands and Brevoy?
What would the limits be of a Monarch’s power? Would he be expected to declare religion x y and z are religions of the state and encouraged? Would a monarch be expected to rule “you may worship whatever religion you want, there are no taxes on religion x or y, but if you want to worship religion z you must pay a tax. Would a monarch be expected to rule, “these religion are legal, these are tolerated and these religion are illegal and you face the penalty of being burned at the stake for worshiping them?
What do you all think?
The thing you forget about "freedom of religion" is that it exists because we have a world divided by multiple faiths that lay claim to being "the only true faith"
Real world religion aside, in Golarion religion is more like Ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, Meso-America, India, Scandinavia, etc. Pantheistic - none of the deities of Golarion claim to be the ONE TRUE path. they compete for offerings and followers, they try to shape the world according to their philosophy, as in ancient times, but none of them punish mortals for being clerics of a different one*.
Pantheistic nations honor all the gods to varying levels - even offering sacrifices to the dark gods to appease them, lest they visit the kingdom/city/household with suffering and pain. Even a nation dedicated to the teachings of Iomedae acknowledges Calistria, although the court would spend no funds on Calistria's temples, and require all funding to be private, while the state would build lavish temples for Iomedae.
For questions of religion more relevant to Kingmaker, you should examine the cultures that had pantheistic societies, not the monotheists of medieval times.
*that's not to say Urgathoa wouldn't love to torture some Pharamin priests. Sure, but I mean, not "spanish inquisition" style intolerance.
oddly enough this was brought up in a youtube recently titled just the same thing, here it is. youtube video on the same subject.
anyways in Taldor, I believe searnea is outlawed in order to strike at the kelshite people due to the history there. I can easily see churches of chaotic deities being banned in Cheliax and Isger.
just some thoughts
|
1st) The concept of religious tolerance and “freedom of religion” (freedom of state control or support) seems to me to be a relatively new one.
Quite the opposite, IMO. The allowance of territories to retain their own practices of faith was the rule in the Roman Empire (up until Constantine declared a single state religion, and, not so coincidentally, began shedding territories like water), for instance.
Would these attitudes differ between a monotheistic feudal society and a polytheistic Feudal society?
While it's easy to point at one or two monotheistic faiths and point out burnings and tortures and 'moral suasion' and persecution that occured at one stage of that faiths development and say that they are less tolerant, but these things go in cycles. Islam used to be crazy tolerant of other religions (Saladin allowed Jews to build synagogues and Coptic Christians to build churches when he held Jerusalem, and the Crusaders who came in later not only tore down the mosques, but also the synagogues *and* the Christian churches, killing everyone). More recently, an Islamic government blew up a giant Buddha because they considered it idolatrous. Christianity, which used to blood libel Jews and torture them until they repented and then kill them to send their souls to heaven before they could relapse into heathenry, now, in the majority of denominations, is hand in hand doing interfaith activities and councils and stuff with Jewish leaders and rabbis. There's really no one rule that fits all.
But this is all real-world stuff, none of which is terribly relevant to Golarion, where the twenty 'big gods' are all answering prayers with miracles every day.
Asmodeus-run Cheliax is not the friendliest place for churches of other faiths, but they don't burn Iomedans at the stake (and Iomedae is indeed allied with Asmodeus as one of the patrons of the Godclaw!).
Nidal, on the other hand, seems to tolerate no churches to anyone but Zon-Kuthon.
The witches of Irrisen don't appear to have any interest in what or who the humans they've subjugated worship. Ditto the rulers of Geb, who have their own faith, and I doubt spend a moment's thought worrying about what the 'food' worships.
In Mendev, on the other hand, there are pograms to purge the native people and accusations that their native faiths are demon-worship-cults.
We are starting a Kingmaker campaign, and what would the attitudes be in the River Lands and Brevoy?
Brevoy's 'big three' are Gorum, Abadar and Pharasma. All three are morally neutral gods, and, of them, only Pharasma has 'an enemies list.' Openly worshipping Norgorber (which, frankly, probably misses the point of worshipping the god of secrets anyway...) would probably make an Abadarite clutch his purse and glare at one suspiciously, but the only faith that I would consider *completely* out of the question would be that of Urgathoa, as the Pharasmins are *very* clear on their dislike of thta faith.
What would the limits be of a Monarch’s power? Would he be expected to declare religion x y and z are religions of the state and encouraged? Would a monarch be expected to rule “you may worship whatever religion you want, there are no taxes on religion x or y, but if you want to worship religion z you must pay a tax. Would a monarch be expected to rule, “these religion are legal, these are tolerated and these religion are illegal and you face the penalty of being burned at the stake for worshiping them?
What do you all think?
It could happen, although, as far as I know, Nidal, Razmiran and Rahadoum are the only Inner Sea regions that have official state 'religions,' and, probably not-coincidentally, two of the three of them don't worship a real god...
Edit: I just remembered that Sarenrae is persona non-grata in Taldor, so that's another example.
In the absence of any hard and fast 'verboten' faiths in Brevoy or, especially, the Stolen Lands, I'd say your best bet is to do what you think will be most fun. If a player thrives on the idea of playing an 'outside the box / against the grain' sort of character, savoring the RP potential of playing a worshipper of a faith that is persecuted or 'underground' in the adventure area, then go for it.
If nobody really cares about that sort of thing, or finds it onerous that the deity they picked is one that you've decided to make a put-upon cult in Brevoy, it might be better to skip the whole notion.
|
|
I know you said Feudal, but you did ask about Pantheons as a hypothetical, so I hope you don't consider the below a threadjack...
The examples we think of in terms of pantheism weren't quite the way we picture them. Many of the gods we think of (Loki, Zeus, etc) are amalgamations of local deities. For instance, people in northern Germany might have altars dedicated to Loki, but might never have heard of Odin (or Woden, if you prefer), who was later incorporated and written as Loki's adoptive father. So it wasn't a matter of tolerance or intolerance so much as the followers of the different gods really not crossing paths very often.
Pantheism doesn't automatically come with unity. Egyptians would let you worship both Ra and Osiris. But... kept adding new gods to their lists every time a new Pharoah stepped up, couldn't keep straight who the High God was, and if you worshipped outside the accepted pantheon, expect to get smote by the hand of Ra (or Horus, or Osiris, etc etc etc, whoever's in charge that week)
Even some of the cultures we view as open and accepting didn't have quite the unity and freedom of worship that we envision. Rome might allow you to worship both Jupiter and Mars freely, but Elysium help you if you openly announced your dedication to Bacchus or his mystery cults, and he was IN the Pantheon. Essentially, if it was new and unknown, it was outlawed. And as it came to be more popular, the government had to decide whether they were going to accept it, or arrest a third of the population on heresy.
Which leads to the difference between those in power and those who weren't. Throughout the late Roman era (constantine+), many of the commoners would pay lip service to the church, then go home and pray at the family altar. Even better, since they were used to Pantheism, they had no idea why this might be frowned upon the ruling Christians.
The end result? You can find any historical justification for however you or your fellow players want to run with it.
As for what I would do? I would totally worship Cayden Caileen, set myself up as both the secular and religious authority, tax-exempt alcohol as a religious and national necessity, and only Cayden's holidays are recognized by the local government.
But I would be tolerant of others, if only so that when they have their festivals, us Cayden-ites would totally crash the party and drink the sacramental mead...
|
|
Thank you all for your thoughtful answers.
In the kingmaker campaign I am GMing.
The party has just secured the absinth (the case of potent green herbal liquor) at the bandit camp on the thorn river, they have started exploring, and have their eyes set on the old sycamore
We are using gestalt characters (best of two classes for BAB, Saves FT, RF, and WL, Hit dice. Skill lists for both classes, Skill points for both classes: IE fighter/ Rogue int 14 (2+int mod) + (8+int mod)= 14 skill points / level, Class features for both classes.
The group size is 4 players and a DM. Using Gestalt characters the group can function with as few as two players. Oh there is a GM PC. We plan to rotate GMing.
The party consists of
Barbarian/ Druid of Gorzeth Male human
Bard/ Cleric of Desna Male ½ orc
Sorcerer / Alchemist of Hermia (no faith) Male ½ elf
Fighter/ Rogue (no Faith) Female Tiefling (Rakshasha)
Paladin of Iomedae / Cavalier order of dragon of Male Asimar (GM PC)
To compensate for the parties increased damage out put I have given the monsters full hit points. So far this been working, allowing the monsters to survive for 2 to 3 rounds.
I am asking what people think, because, after the Stag lord is killed, the party will have to figure out what kind of government they want, and if they pick a monarchy, which I think is likely (although you never know with a players) and then they will have to pick which character they want to be “king”. And I think they will need to decide how they handle the relationship between "church and state".
Thank you again for all of your thoughtful answers.