While that is an interesting interpretation of the Falling Rules, there is nothing to support this instananeous fall idea in the rules. Furthermore, there is nothing you can't do while falling - except cast a spell. If that was the case why not write "you can perform no actions while falling"?You can deliberately drop (fall) off a 30 ft cliff towards an opponent underneath, and ready an action to strike the opponent when you reach the bottom. And yes, with the rules as currently written, you can begin to fall, quick draw a grappling hook on your belt and hook it onto the ledge with your standard action to save your butt.
Unless they choose to errata this, this is what is written in the book.
Normally, I debate people tooth and nail when I think they are wrong. But this time...I really don't know what to say. The rules as written are really that bad. I might actually be wrong. I might not be. It isn't really clear because nothing is defined well. There are so many uncovered circumstances and bad rules (20d6 falling damage cap is pretty dumb) that it really is open to interpretation. So here's hoping for that errata.
Yes everyone plese hit FAQ at the first post and lets get a ruling though i do find it dumb from a common sense point that you can attempt any standard action except cast a spell in that time.
And to the Jumping down 30ft then attacking idea thats jumping not falling which are two different things.
Woo Woo. Faq train!
@WPharohlin
We agree.
As an aside however, do you doubt that a person could react in some way when falling? I do not, especially if our characters are supposed to be the iconic hero types capable of incredible feats of strength, agility and mental prowess.
And to the Jumping down 30ft then attacking idea thats jumping not falling which are two different things.
Actually, deliberately falling is covered in the falling rules and is mechancially the same (except you can take an acrobatics check for the first 10ft to deal non-leathal damage instead of lethal).
Your right im sorry but your example also has you ending the fall before attacking which means you could cast a spell after falling 30ft.
Your right im sorry but your example also has you ending the fall before attacking which means you could cast a spell after falling 30ft.
Well after the fall is ended you can take your remaining actions, like casting a spell yes, but I was saying you could ready your attack while you're falling, splitting hairs (admittedly), but an example of a standard action while falling none-the-less.
@WPharohlin
We agree.As an aside however, do you doubt that a person could react in some way when falling? I do not, especially if our characters are supposed to be the iconic hero types capable of incredible feats of strength, agility and mental prowess.
If we are talking about reality than it largely depends on the action and the distance fallen. But I don't care for reality in my D&D. Verisimilitude I absolutely want, but reality? Not so much. I think that players should be able to do crazier and crazier things as they level.
So yeah I think druids should be able to turn into birds or storm clouds or whatever when they fall. I think D&D gravity should pretty much be like the gravity in Advent Children: Rule of Cool.
I suggest that if you are a druid crossing a chasm, that you ready an action to wildshape should you fall. Take only move actions to balance your way across the swaying bridge.
See, gravity already has a readied action to drag your mass to the lowest point. It's going to trip you if you can. So only if you can use an immediate action (please read Featherfall) or if you have a readied action, can you stop gravity from having its naughty way with you.
Bad gravity. Bad.
He failed his reflex save to catch himself and would not have enough time (a standard action) to finish changing into a bird before he hit the bottom.
That is why the spell Feather Fall specifically states that it only takes 1 immediate action to cast.
Think of his falling as being similar to a readied action or an attack of opportunity against him that interrupts his current rounds actions. It would take into account the round of falling (500 ft.) before allowing him to complete the rest of his rounds actions (the standard action he has yet to do). If it was a fall of 600 ft. he would have been able to change into the bird before hitting bottom but with only 150 ft. he has no chance.
Pretty much what Purplefixer said but in different words. :p
Could he have taken his standard action to prepare a readied action ("if I fall, wildshape into a bird") and then take his move action to try to move across the bridge?
The way the game played out is like this:
The druid went across the swaying bridge, taking no precautions at all. He failed his Acrobatics check then his Reflex save so he fell 150 feet.
He said he wanted to Wildshape into a bird during the fall. I said he could not do that.
The way I'm reading this, you presented the player a fait d'accompli. I don't think you should have. Assuming your player was in the middle of his move action and still had his standard left, your narrative was too fast.
Player: "I start crossing the bridge."
DM: "The rope bridge is swaying quite a bit. When you're about 15ft out it's twisting around and you might fall off. I need an Acrobatics check to retain your balance."
Player: "Oh, crap, um... three."
DM: "That doesn't cut it. You tip over the edge but good news... you might be able to catch the edge and hold on. How about a Reflex save?"
Player: "Oh, crap, um... natural one."
HERE'S WHERE THINGS WENT WRONG
DM: "You fell, you took damage, I never liked you anyway."
WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED
DM: "Well, you miss catching the rope and are clearly about to fall."
Player: "Oh, well, I still have a wild shape. I use it."
DM: "Good choice."
OR
Player2: "I use my immediate action to cast feather fall on the druid."
DISCUSSION
See, you just said "it happened". That's not generally a good thing in the middle of a character's turn. It's still his turn and he's still got actions. I realize there's a temptation to treat this like a trap where if you fail the save, the consequences happen and there's nothing you can possibly do about them (aside from immediate actions).
The consequence is: you slip from the bridge.
Look at it that way. The character has lost their footing. Normally that would the end of the matter and you can move on to the falling and dying part of the game. In this case and only a very few others (including feather fall) there's actually an edge condition where stopping the stream of events makes total sense.
Forcing the player to take their standard action after the fall is just... punitive. It's being a evil DM, out to screw the player. You denied the player the ability to act during his turn in a natural and useful manner. You decided to impose the fall earlier than necessary. The rules don't preclude supernatural abilities during a fall regardless. Bad ruling for two reasons, sorry.
Just thought I would pipe in. I take turns DMing for our group. My friend and I are the only ones who have dmed our group, but we are trying to encourage others to try. Our current campaigned is custom made for us to swap out and do our own session and decide how to shape events.
Anyway, we both are bothered by how falling works and are considering using a house rule that states you take 1d4 or 1d3 constitution damage for every 10' instead of 1d6 regular damage. We have even thought of a hybrid of the official rules and our rules.
Personally I LOVE the 1d4/10 feet idea. We haven't implemented/tested it yet because we aren't in an area where we could, however it would dramatically affect spells like create pit. Maybe we would have magic spells work as usual, or raise the level of the pit spells.
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Forcing the player to take their standard action after the fall is just... punitive. It's being a evil DM, out to screw the player. You denied the player the ability to act during his turn in a natural and useful manner. You decided to impose the fall earlier than necessary. The rules don't preclude supernatural abilities during a fall regardless. Bad ruling for two reasons, sorry.
The Wild Shape ability does say that it "functions like the beast shape I spell", except as otherwise noted. I don't think it's a stretch to say the cast time is the same, and that one cannot use Wild Shape while falling less than 500 feet; rather, that the druid would not be finished changing by the time he hit the ground.
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For those of you who say that you can do a standard while falling, if that is true, then the following should (barring wind) all be allowed:
make a ranged attack
activate a magic item
channel energy
drink a potion
light a torch with a tindertwig
read a scroll
appraise an item
treat a wound
treat poison
I have a hard time thinking of someone bandaging a wound up, or treating a poison in the time it takes to fall *150', much less reading a scroll.
*150' takes about 3 seconds to fall in real life via Wolframalpha.com
The 100d6 part is wrong actually. It caps at 20d6. Which means that 10th level barbarians can survive falls from the stratosphere, face first and then just get up and flip off the DM.
I know i've asked this, but i can't help myself:
Has anyone tried grappling a foe off of a ledge just so you can kill them with the falling damage?
No image has amused me more than a barbarian grappling a wizard off of a ledge and then getting up, relatively unhurt.
To those arguing that falling isn't instantaneous: You're essentially stating that I could use my move action run off a cliff edge 15 feet, turn around, and run back 15 feet without ever falling? Or that I could run across a 29 foot chasm without falling or making a jump check?
The 100d6 part is wrong actually. It caps at 20d6. Which means that 10th level barbarians can survive falls from the stratosphere, face first and then just get up and flip off the DM.I know i've asked this, but i can't help myself:
Has anyone tried grappling a foe off of a ledge just so you can kill them with the falling damage?
No image has amused me more than a barbarian grappling a wizard off of a ledge and then getting up, relatively unhurt.
Happened like this in my game just a few weeks ago. The fey queen was trying to get out of the tower window to climb away. The paladin grappled her and deliberately pushed them out the window, and the charmed barbarian jumped out after them to protect her. She survived the landing, barely, but not the next round.
To those arguing that falling isn't instantaneous: You're essentially stating that I could use my move action run off a cliff edge 15 feet, turn around, and run back 15 feet without ever falling? Or that I could run across a 29 foot chasm without falling or making a jump check?
I don't think anyone is arguing that falling isnt instantaneous, we're saying hitting the ground is not instantaneous.
Falling should not happen instantly and you have time to perform some actions (albeit brief amounts).
@happler
I think you should be able to perform a standard, why not? It's roughly 3 seconds of time, by your measure that's about the time you have before you splat. Also, when did physics enter the equation? In a game where lightning has no effect on water? Mechanics or not please.
@RD
You might be able to do that except no one said you don't start descending at all. However, your overture of hyperbole is appreciated.
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To those arguing that falling isn't instantaneous: You're essentially stating that I could use my move action run off a cliff edge 15 feet, turn around, and run back 15 feet without ever falling? Or that I could run across a 29 foot chasm without falling or making a jump check?
I don't think anyone is arguing that falling isnt instantaneous, we're saying hitting the ground is not instantaneous.
Falling should not happen instantly and you have time to perform some actions (albeit brief amounts).
@happler
I think you should be able to perform a standard, why not? It's roughly 3 seconds of time, by your measure that's about the time you have before you splat. Also, when did physics enter the equation? In a game where lightning has no effect on water? Mechanics or not please.@RD
You might be able to do that except no one said you don't start descending at all. However, your overture of hyperbole is appreciated.
Sounds good, RAW states that you fall automatically 500' the first round. There is no action type (move, standard, etc) attached to it, and it does not follow any of the standard action rules (can end turn in am illegal space, do not provoke AOO). So, by game terms, it is instant.
Sounds good, RAW states that you fall automatically 500' the first round. There is no action type (move, standard, etc) attached to it, and it does not follow any of the standard action rules (can end turn in am illegal space, do not provoke AOO). So, by game terms, it is instant.
Wow.. way to circle this argument all the way back around to the beginning... and to provide the same citation and draw the same conclusion...
For your reference, here's the text: A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.
Hmm... doesn't say anything about using actions/abilities, falling automatically or anything else. However, it does say you can't cast a spell unless the fall is greater than 500 ft. Why that is, it's not really very clear. But, it seems incorrect to say not casting a spell = not capable of taking any actions.
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So, a druid starts their turn and decided to move, and then do a standard. As they move, they provoke an AoO from an enemy that they not know was there (high hide check), and are tripped. As a reaction to the trip, they wildshape into a bird and avoid being prone after the trip.
This is a fall of less then 500', (more like 4 feet), they still have a standard action left, and they can choose to do their standard action after their move action has ended, right?
If you say that it is okay to wildshape while falling less then 500', then I ask you this.
1) How long a fall is needed to be able to do a standard action? (back up your answer with as much RAW as possible please)
2) When does the fall take place, move action, standard action, non-action, etc? (please also back up your answer with as much RAW as you can).
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To answer my own questions:
1) the fall needs to be more than 500' to have the ability to get a standard action off. I am basing this off of the book stating that you cannot cast any spell other then immediate action spells during any fall shorter then this. I know that it only says spells, but it seems logical (to me at least) to expand this out to standard actions also. After all, why are you not able to cast any spells but immediate ones while falling less then 500'? The only difference is the time to cast the spell, (since it states that you still need to make a concentration check either way).
2) I read falling as an instant action (no type) due to pit traps. If you walk over a covered pit trap, and fail your reflex save, you do not have the time to do anything else, but fall and hit the bottom (assuming that the pit trap is less then 500' deep). I can find no text in the book that gives any duration to any fall under 500'.
I will happily accept being proven wrong or right. I would just like to hear others opinions/readings on those two questions.
So, a druid starts their turn and decided to move, and then do a standard. As they move, they provoke an AoO from an enemy that they not know was there (high hide check), and are tripped. As a reaction to the trip, they wildshape into a bird and avoid being prone after the trip.
This is a fall of less then 500', (more like 4 feet), they still have a standard action left, and they can choose to do their standard action after their move action has ended, right?
This is actually not a fall as the term is described in Pathfinder Mechanics. But, I understand what you're trying to achieve with your illustration. A creature that is tripped is knocked prone, they don't fall X amount of feet.
Here's the text for Trip.
TripYou can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
A subtle difference, but it goes a long way in PF. No reference for falling damage or falling mechanics.
The way the scenario would play out would be, the during his/her move action, the druid is tripped with the AoO, is knocked prone and then could use its Wild Shape (standard action) to turn into a bird and fly away.
If you say that it is okay to wildshape while falling less then 500', then I ask you this.
1) How long a fall is needed to be able to do a standard action? (back up your answer with as much RAW as possible please)
1) the fall needs to be more than 500' to have the ability to get a standard action off. I am basing this off of the book stating that you cannot cast any spell other then immediate action spells during any fall shorter then this. I know that it only says spells, but it seems logical (to me at least) to expand this out to standard actions also. After all, why are you not able to cast any spells but immediate ones while falling less then 500'? The only difference is the time to cast the spell, (since it states that you still need to make a concentration check either way).
I'm wary to make this leap because it would have been very easy for the developers to write no actions rather than write cast no spells. It could be that casting spells requires materials/focuses so shuffling about through materials is too fine an action to perform while falling. However, stating that you can't cast spells implies that there are things you are able to do while falling.
2) When does the fall take place, move action, standard action, non-action, etc? (please also back up your answer with as much RAW as you can).
2) I read falling as an instant action (no type) due to pit traps. If you walk over a covered pit trap, and fail your reflex save, you do not have the time to do anything else, but fall and hit the bottom (assuming that the pit trap is less then 500' deep). I can find no text in the book that gives any duration to any fall under 500'.
Failing a Reflex Save for a Pit Trap is the equivalent of falling, so again looking at the falling rules, all options are open to you except spellcasting. Pit traps just specify the length of the fall and define the objects and surface you fall upon.
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I'm wary to make this leap because it would have been very easy for the developers to write no actions rather than write cast no spells. It could be that casting spells requires materials/focuses so shuffling about through materials is too fine an action to perform while falling. However, stating that you can't cast spells implies that there are things you are able to do while falling.
By that logic, distance of fall should not matter. You would never be able to cast spells when falling as it would be just as hard to get the components out on a 1000' fall as a 300' fall.
I am not saying that you cannot do anything, only that on a fall of less then 500', there is not time for an action (standard or move, not counting free actions) before you impact.
So, for example:
(move action) character runs 10' forward and runs over a covered 300' pit trap.
(interrupting action) since the character was running, they auto fail the reflex save and drop 300' taking 20d6 damage and survive. (deep pit!)
At this point the character (now at the bottom of the pit) can either:
a) finish the rest of their move action if they can.
b) stop their move action and take a standard action.
Having the character wildshape has the character interrupting an interrupting action to perform a standard action.
If you can do this for a fall, then you should be able to do this for a trip AoO. As that is also an interrupting action. And since you cannot trip a flying creature, the druid should be able to avoid being prone.
Having the character wildshape has the character interrupting an interrupting action to perform a standard action.
If you can do this for a fall, then you should be able to do this for a trip AoO. As that is also an interrupting action. And since you cannot trip a flying creature, the druid should be able to avoid being prone.
I appreciate your efforts to find the answer, as I too would like to see some resolution to this subject.
They are similar, but not the same. As I said before, tripping someone is not the same as a fall. By excluding only spellcasting at falls less than 500ft the developers automatically include all other actions aside from spellcasting to be possible - whether we think that's correct or not, this is the impression they have given us.
This is not the case for a trip (which is not the same as falling), being knocked prone is an immediate consequence of the trip maneuver. By the falling rules own admission, taking falling damage is not immediate (which at least we can both agree is true for falls that are greater than 500feet).