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So there is a lot of criticism of the Vancian system of casting, some fair and some unfair.
I take this approach.
Vancian is an option. And I think we need to try to find additional options that integrate with it. Just as Wizards and Sorcerers draw from the same spell list in different ways, there may be other ways to deal with the issue and expand options.
Word of Power, with all it's strengths and weaknesses, was a strong effort in this regard.
I propose something a little more radical. This is very rough, and something I was noodling for a psionic option that wasn't point based.
Here is an example of a class I was working on for a Firefly homebrew that never got off the ground..
The concept is simple. As you level you gain the ability to "Focus" on multiple things. At first level you have enough focus to maintain one first level spell from your spell list. Every other level you gain another focus point, and every level you learn two new abilities.
Each level of focus represents a level of spell you can have "Up" at a given time. If you have 1 level of focus, you can only have one 1st level spell "Up"
If you have 2 levels of focus you can have either 1 2nd level spell "up" or 2 1st level spell. And so on up through the levels.
This would have to have a careful spell list, obviously. And would need to be play tested and adjusted for balance, but conceptually I think this is
A) A better way to to Psionics
B) A viable alternative casting option.
Thoughts?
That sounds similar to how Warmachine handles spellcasting. At the beginning of your turn, you regain your total focus (different characters have different totals) and can spend some to maintain spells you cast previously. There is no limit to the number of spells you can cast, so long as you have enough focus to pay for them.
Interesting. I would classify this as spontaneous casting with refreshing spell slots. The notable difference is that you can have multiple spells going that require "concentration" where normally you can't. Although moat spells with long durations don't require cocentration anyways.
Actually what you have here would actually be a good start for a martial class caster system. Limited pool of constant abilities which can be changed by changing focus. Add a fatigue rule for keeping a focus going longer then say 10 rounds (equivalent to running for a minutie plus) with DC increases for having more focus in use.
Agreed, also a possible Psionic or Psi system.
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Interesting. I would classify this as spontaneous casting with refreshing spell slots. The notable difference is that you can have multiple spells going that require "concentration" where normally you can't. Although moat spells with long durations don't require cocentration anyways.
Actually what you have here would actually be a good start for a martial class caster system. Limited pool of constant abilities which can be changed by changing focus. Add a fatigue rule for keeping a focus going longer then say 10 rounds (equivalent to running for a minutie plus) with DC increases for having more focus in use.
Agreed, also a possible Psionic or Psi system.
I considered that, and I think that would be one of the "Options" for available techniques.
I think the key is the spell list, but you could also have different style (martial fighter type would be one) that had a more limited spell list in exchange for more hit points/higher BAB.
So there is a lot of criticism of the Vancian system of casting, some fair and some unfair.
I take this approach.
Vancian is an option. And I think we need to try to find additional options that integrate with it. Just as Wizards and Sorcerers draw from the same spell list in different ways, there may be other ways to deal with the issue and expand options.
Word of Power, with all it's strengths and weaknesses, was a strong effort in this regard.
I propose something a little more radical. This is very rough, and something I was noodling for a psionic option that wasn't point based.
Here is an example of a class I was working on for a Firefly homebrew that never got off the ground..
The concept is simple. As you level you gain the ability to "Focus" on multiple things. At first level you have enough focus to maintain one first level spell from your spell list. Every other level you gain another focus point, and every level you learn two new abilities.
Each level of focus represents a level of spell you can have "Up" at a given time. If you have 1 level of focus, you can only have one 1st level spell "Up"
If you have 2 levels of focus you can have either 1 2nd level spell "up" or 2 1st level spell. And so on up through the levels.
This would have to have a careful spell list, obviously. And would need to be play tested and adjusted for balance, but conceptually I think this is
A) A better way to to Psionics
B) A viable alternative casting option.Thoughts?
I really support casting systems like this; it's very similar to a variant system I started developing but eventually gave up and stuck with the recharge option.
To balance higher end spells you could simply require multiple concentration slots. For spontaneous casters, this is a good fit as-is; I'd have other casters continue to prepare spells and choose from that list.
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So there is a lot of criticism of the Vancian system of casting, some fair and some unfair.
I take this approach.
Vancian is an option. And I think we need to try to find additional options that integrate with it. Just as Wizards and Sorcerers draw from the same spell list in different ways, there may be other ways to deal with the issue and expand options.
Word of Power, with all it's strengths and weaknesses, was a strong effort in this regard.
I propose something a little more radical. This is very rough, and something I was noodling for a psionic option that wasn't point based.
Here is an example of a class I was working on for a Firefly homebrew that never got off the ground..
The concept is simple. As you level you gain the ability to "Focus" on multiple things. At first level you have enough focus to maintain one first level spell from your spell list. Every other level you gain another focus point, and every level you learn two new abilities.
Each level of focus represents a level of spell you can have "Up" at a given time. If you have 1 level of focus, you can only have one 1st level spell "Up"
If you have 2 levels of focus you can have either 1 2nd level spell "up" or 2 1st level spell. And so on up through the levels.
This would have to have a careful spell list, obviously. And would need to be play tested and adjusted for balance, but conceptually I think this is
A) A better way to to Psionics
B) A viable alternative casting option.Thoughts?
I really support casting systems like this; it's very similar to a variant system I started developing but eventually gave up and stuck with the recharge option.
To balance higher end spells you could simply require multiple concentration slots. For spontaneous casters, this is a good fit as-is; I'd have other casters continue to prepare spells and choose from that list.
The high levels are problematic, but on the other hand with all the focus required you will have no defensive spells at all if you cast them.
Like I said, it needs work but I think it is a framework with a lot of potential.
The high levels are problematic, but on the other hand with all the focus required you will have no defensive spells at all if you cast them.
Like I said, it needs work but I think it is a framework with a lot of potential.
Eventually, I hope most high level spells can be done away with in favor of refracting several lower level spells at once to create the same effect; basically, what the Words of Power system tried to do, but devotes enough space in a book to cover it. With a system like this, it's just a matter of re-writing all the spells in the game. Say goodbye to metamagic feats. I'm excited now.
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Eventually, I hope most high level spells can be done away with in favor of refracting several lower level spells at once to create the same effect; basically, what the Words of Power system tried to do, but devotes enough space in a book to cover it. With a system like this, it's just a matter of re-writing all the spells in the game. Say goodbye to metamagic feats. I'm excited now.The high levels are problematic, but on the other hand with all the focus required you will have no defensive spells at all if you cast them.
Like I said, it needs work but I think it is a framework with a lot of potential.
Don't get me started on the metamagic stuff...the rods can be so broken...
I am not one looking to replace, but rather to add options. The more options in the game, the more robust the system.
Combined with balance, of course.
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A couple of magic systems in other games can be adapted to D&D with a little work.
Ars Magica has a system where you learn things about spells and magic. Two classes of things exist: techniques and forms. They are like skills and you can have different levels in each. For example if you know the technique Creo (creation) and the form Ignem (fire) then you can create fire. How much fire and how easy that is to do depends on the levels you have in those two things. The Techniques are basically Create, Perceive, transform, destroy, and control. I wont' list all the forms but basically one form exist for all categories you will need. They had 3 classes of spells spontaneous, formulaic, and Ritual. Formulaic were spells you knew how to do and had the right Tech/form levels for it. They were easier to cast. Spontaneous was much like words of power in that you could mix forms and techniques on the fly to create new spells limited only by what you knew.
I really enjoyed the Ars Magica system and it can be adapted into a magic system in D&D with even the same forms and techniques.
Mage the Ascension (2nd edition here--newer ones exist) had a similar but less complicated system where 9 spheres of magic were known. They covered forces (burn, cold, electricity, gravity). life, matter (things that exist, could also be used to make acid), spirit (dealing with ghosts, the ethereal plane), prime (the stuff of magic), time, entropy (chance, decay), mind, correspondence (connections between locations, teleport)
Being good in one sphere would let you do powerful effects, mixing several spheres made some cool effects. It was much more free form than D&D could work with but I could see having spheres made up of the schools or the types of spells and making it work with D&D.
Vancian is an option. And I think we need to try to find additional options that integrate with it.
A rough draft of a new resource management concept that I made can be found here.
By removing the Chakra flavor, it can actually work with 3.5 fairly well (I've been playtesting). Though it is a far more radical change than most people would like.
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I get the impression most don't think there's balance now.
None of the fans of the Vancian system seem to think sorcerors are more powerful or even more flexible than wizards. Few of the detractors would probably be so vocal if they didn't agree that spontaneous classes are relatively weak. A few people defend spontaneous caster flexability but the general zeitgung seems to favor the unlimited spell lists of prepared casters. Maybe they're a silent majority, but I'm not inclined to assume so.
The Vancian system just doesn't have enough variables that can be tweaked for balance. Really just spell slots.
If going full alternate system balance is a lot more achievable, even if you keep a mixed system with a vancian element.
First off I'd put in a small, quickly regenerating mana counter for everyone.
Perhaps as a first iteration your mana is twice your casting stat mod Every hour you get back your stat mod. Casting a spell takes mana equal to its level. That would solve the novaing problem, at least for casters and is a general variable that can be tweaked to balance casters and non-casters either by changing the scaling factor or adding a constant or forcing mana to use a stat other than the normal casting stat.
Three things.
Most of the threads about the weakness of spontaneous casters seem to assume the Wizard/Cleric/Druid/etc have the right spell memorized at the right time all the time, as many times as they need to memorize it that day.
In my experience, this only works out in games with 15 minute days or DM's who makes sure the players write down spell lists before the game starts.
Second thing, regenerating mana is an idea I would be opposed to. The table calculations would be a pain (how much time has passed since...) and it doesn't solve any of the concerns, rather it takes away one of the primary balancing aspects, that you can't get spells back during the day once you've used them.
Third, I have found on these threads that most of the "Broken" spells aren't broken, but misread.
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Vancian is an option. And I think we need to try to find additional options that integrate with it.
A rough draft of a new resource management concept that I made can be found here.
By removing the Chakra flavor, it can actually work with 3.5 fairly well (I've been playtesting). Though it is a far more radical change than most people would like.
Interesting, but a lot of moving parts to keep track of.
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A couple of magic systems in other games can be adapted to D&D with a little work.
Ars Magica has a system where you learn things about spells and magic. Two classes of things exist: techniques and forms. They are like skills and you can have different levels in each. For example if you know the technique Creo (creation) and the form Ignem (fire) then you can create fire. How much fire and how easy that is to do depends on the levels you have in those two things. The Techniques are basically Create, Perceive, transform, destroy, and control. I wont' list all the forms but basically one form exist for all categories you will need. They had 3 classes of spells spontaneous, formulaic, and Ritual. Formulaic were spells you knew how to do and had the right Tech/form levels for it. They were easier to cast. Spontaneous was much like words of power in that you could mix forms and techniques on the fly to create new spells limited only by what you knew.
I really enjoyed the Ars Magica system and it can be adapted into a magic system in D&D with even the same forms and techniques.
Mage the Ascension (2nd edition here--newer ones exist) had a similar but less complicated system where 9 spheres of magic were known. They covered forces (burn, cold, electricity, gravity). life, matter (things that exist, could also be used to make acid), spirit (dealing with ghosts, the ethereal plane), prime (the stuff of magic), time, entropy (chance, decay), mind, correspondence (connections between locations, teleport)
Being good in one sphere would let you do powerful effects, mixing several spheres made some cool effects. It was much more free form than D&D could work with but I could see having spheres made up of the schools or the types of spells and making it work with D&D.
I would love for some very specific variant casting classes to exist, with very limited spell lists in exchange for advantages elsewhere. There was a little of this in some of the variant schools in ultimate magic, but something like an all fire/water/earth/wind spell class would be very interesting to play.
Similarly a variant that could only access one school of magic in exchange for maybe having higher BaB/more skilled, etc...would be interesting.
The true master of a single school/type of magic class could be very appealing if done well.
Interesting, but a lot of moving parts to keep track of.
There are less parts than the vancian casting system. In fact there are only 3 parts. I'm confused as to why you think that. My play testing so far has shown that people have had a much easier time of keeping track of abilities. I'm not being defensive, I'm just looking for feedback.
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There are less parts than the vancian casting system. In fact there are only 3 parts. I'm confused as to why you think that. My play testing so far has shown that people have had a much easier time of keeping track of abilities. I'm not being defensive, I'm just looking for feedback.Interesting, but a lot of moving parts to keep track of.
Vancian is basically you memorize the spell from your spell list, up to however many spell slots you have for the day. Once you cast the spell, you cross it off your spells for the day. Done.
I am honestly having trouble following how the what you described works, as it is unclear what "powers" would be accessible when, how, and how often. Can you do everything on a tier, or are their limits.
Maybe if you can post an example of a character and how they would use the abilities.
Vancian is basically you memorize the spell from your spell list, up to however many spell slots you have for the day. Once you cast the spell, you cross it off your spells for the day. Done.I am honestly having trouble following how the what you described works, as it is unclear what "powers" would be accessible when, how, and how often. Can you do everything on a tier, or are their limits.
Maybe if you can post an example of a character and how they would use the abilities.
That may be because you're thinking from a pathfinder stand point. I wrote this a design concept without any particular game in mind, but I have begun play testing it with 3.5. No powers or abilities exist because you can't create powers and abilities without first knowing how those powers and abilities are going to interact with the games mechanics. But if you want the simple version it goes something like this...
Basically, you have a number of ability slots. You can spend an action to equip an ability. If that ability is a lesser ability, like shooting a fireball, than you can just keep on tossing around explosions forever or until you choose to equip something else (which takes an standard action). If that ability is a Greater ability, than it becomes un-equipped after it is used and must be re-equipped (another standard action).
If you want the SUPER simple version it goes like this...
Abilities can either be used at will or at the cost of additional actions.
I think I get it WPharolin... May I?
Ignoring Prana and High/Low chakra, you have 7 "slots" you can put abilities (spells) into. Each slot has a Max level (my guess) based on character level and such.
For example my Red Slot is rated for 3rd level spells. I can stick a Fireball in it and cast it all day long. If I wanted to change it to Lighting Bolt I'd have to spend a standard action to swap them.
A "greater abilty" say Comtorl Weather clears itself from the "Slot" when cast and needs a standard action to "reload" if you want to use it again.
Interesting system and could, as with your Prana have some kind of limiting pool that depletes with use.
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I've been more an more interested in a fatigue based system. This provides a logical reason why Barabarians can't rage all day. A system wide fatigue DC would be limiter on going nuclear with spells or abilities. I'm not sure how I'd work the back end mechanics. Ideally as an alt system it should interfere with how the game is supposed to flow, no rolls needed unless you start going crazy (time stop, delayed blast fireball repeat as you have slots).
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Vancian is basically you memorize the spell from your spell list, up to however many spell slots you have for the day. Once you cast the spell, you cross it off your spells for the day. Done.I am honestly having trouble following how the what you described works, as it is unclear what "powers" would be accessible when, how, and how often. Can you do everything on a tier, or are their limits.
Maybe if you can post an example of a character and how they would use the abilities.
That may be because you're thinking from a pathfinder stand point. I wrote this a design concept without any particular game in mind, but I have begun play testing it with 3.5. No powers or abilities exist because you can't create powers and abilities without first knowing how those powers and abilities are going to interact with the games mechanics. But if you want the simple version it goes something like this...
Basically, you have a number of ability slots. You can spend an action to equip an ability. If that ability is a lesser ability, like shooting a fireball, than you can just keep on tossing around explosions forever or until you choose to equip something else (which takes an standard action). If that ability is a Greater ability, than it becomes un-equipped after it is used and must be re-equipped (another standard action).
If you want the SUPER simple version it goes like this...
Abilities can either be used at will or at the cost of additional actions.
So basically the ability is the "clip" in your magic "gun" you need to swap out, as a standard action?
So basically the ability is the "clip" in your magic "gun" you need to swap out, as a standard action?
Sort of. With lesser abilities you would have infinite ammo. Greater abilities, yeah, you gotta change your clip or insert a new missile as it were. Or 'power up' if that makes you feel better.
The ability slots are kinda like a hot bar, you can only fit so many in at a time and both your lesser and greater abilities use the space.
I think I get it WPharolin... May I?
Ignoring Prana and High/Low chakra, you have 7 "slots" you can put abilities (spells) into. Each slot has a Max level (my guess) based on character level and such.
For example my Red Slot is rated for 3rd level spells. I can stick a Fireball in it and cast it all day long. If I wanted to change it to Lighting Bolt I'd have to spend a standard action to swap them.
A "greater abilty" say Comtorl Weather clears itself from the "Slot" when cast and needs a standard action to "reload" if you want to use it again.
Interesting system and could, as with your Prana have some kind of limiting pool that depletes with use.
Not exactly. None of your ability slots have any level restrictions. You would just get abilities that are level appropriate as you leveled up. Once you hit a certain level, former greater abilities would be turned into lesser abilities. Your red slot can hold any power your have. But what that power is and whether of not it is at will or not would be dependant on your level.
The only reason you would want to even have a difference between red and blue slots is that you could create feats and items that interact with them. For example, you could have a feat that grants some sort of bonus to any power equipped to your red slot or you could have a spell that temporarily denies access to a certain number of slots.
Yeah, you could fireball all day long and spend a standard action to switch it to lightning bolt. But more problematic spells would cost an extra "re-equip" action until you got to a high enough level that casting it at will wouldn't be a problem.
Normally, prana doesn't do anything aside from sound cool and explain things. But in pathfinder prana could be used to cast greater abilities to prevent all day access to control weather or gate.
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Not exactly. None of your ability slots have any level restrictions. You would just get abilities that are level appropriate as you leveled up. Once you hit a certain level, former greater abilities would be turned into lesser abilities. Your red slot can hold any power your have. But what that power is and whether of not it is at will or not would be dependant on your level.The only reason you would want to even have a difference between red and blue slots is that you could create feats and items that interact with them. For example, you could have a feat that grants some sort of bonus to any power equipped to your red slot or you could have a spell that temporarily denies access to a certain number of slots.
Yeah, you could fireball all day long and spend a standard action to switch it to lightning bolt. But more problematic spells would cost an extra "re-equip" action until you got to a high enough level that casting it at will wouldn't be a problem.
Normally, prana doesn't do anything aside from sound cool and explain things. But in pathfinder prana could be used to cast greater abilities to prevent all day access to control weather or gate.
I am not saying this is better or worse, but I stand by "lots of moving parts"
What I meant by clip was not so much exhaustible ammunition (although that does seem to come into play with some abilities from what you are saying) but rather more "This is fireball ammo" (swap standard action) "this is lightning bolt ammo."
I think this can be a good idea, but it feels more like an alchemist variant, or even a numerian super-science variant.
I get that isn't what you are going for, but the mechanics of it would make possibly overpowered for utility spells (you could have any utility spell you needed with a standard action) unless each was a consumable, and man would that be a lot of book"keeping.
Again, without seeing a built out build with a role-play example, it is hard for me to picture how it interacts with existing stuff.
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most of the "Broken" spells aren't broken, but misread.
Three answers:
first, you are one of the spontaneous caster apologists. I see no evidence you're in the majority.Second, regenerating mana doesn't give back any spells. It's an added restriction on top of either vancian spell memorization or a cooldown timer system. An hour is long enough that they don't need to be tracked in combat. What it does is provide a place to adjust caster/noncaster balance, something sorely lacking in the current paradigm. It also limits the spell output of this existing D&D 3.5 alternate magic system to allow it to be balanced to exist in the same game as vancian magic.
Third, you apparently define broken quite narrowly. I define it more loosely. If the choice between two spells of the same level is obvious either the weaker is too weak or the stronger is too strong. Both trap options and unambiguously superior options are game breaking in the sense that if the player doesn't have a meaningful choice between options there isn't really a game anymore, just a railroad.
Perhaps you'd be happier with the terminology "spells with power that don't match the granularity of spell...
Three replies
1. Your tone, intentionally or not, is very rude. And your statement is inaccurate. I am not an apologist, I am a realist. If it were not an advantage as perceived by the developers to be able to cast spontaneously, they would not receive spells later.
2. Regenerating by that definition is pointless. The limit on nova is not having a 15 minute adventuring day. If you aren't running low on spells as a non-spontaneous caster, your DM is probably coddling the casters.
3. Name a broken spell, and we can read it together.
For those uninitiated, what is the vancian system?
D&D owes more to this man than it does to Tolkien. Including its magic system.
Even Vecna = V -A -N -C -E
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I think this is
A) A better way to to Psionics
B) A viable alternative casting option.
Thoughts?A) This is more a version of incarnum, not psionics.
B) That said, this absolutely is a viable casting option. In fact, it would also work well for combat feats, since it is essentially an expanded version of ToB stances.
A) Ish. I never read Incarnium until after I made this, and after I read incarnium I can see where there is some overlap, but Incarnium was horribly overcomplicated. It reminds me more of what WPharolin was posting.
Incarnium was never on my radar, and when I read it...well I think it failed by trying to introduce an overly complicated systems on top of an existing systems. What I want to do is add a simple alternative casting method, which I personally think feels more fitting to the flavor of Psionics than a point or mana system.
A psionic is "focusing" to use innate powers. The better they learn to focus, the more powers they should be able to use.
B. Thanks.
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For those uninitiated, what is the vancian system?The spell-slots-per-day magic system. So called because it was inspired by the magic system used in Jack Vance's Dying Earth series.
I've been more an more interested in a fatigue based system. This provides a logical reason why Barabarians can't rage all day.In the APG playtest, I was pushing for something barbarian-like for the oracle. She would enter a trance the way a barbarian enters a rage, with a number of rounds of trance per day and fatigue at the end of each trance. And her spells would be like rage powers: some can be used once per day, some can be used once per trance, and the rest can be used at will while trancing.
They threw you a bone with the rage prophet :)
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A psionic is "focusing" to use innate powers. The better they learn to focus, the more powers they should be able to use.Well, that's what psionic feats that make use of the psionic focus mechanic are for. The more of those feats you accumulate, the more benefits you get for maintaining your psionic focus.
Could some of the longer-duration psionic powers be converted into psionic feats that make use of the psionic focus mechanic? Sure. But you still need a resource-based system for all of the instantaneous and short-duration powers that would be broken if they lasted indefinitely or were usable at will.
Yes and no.
Some spells would be broken. But on the other hand if you had to choose to drop all defensive spells to cast a fireball...not so much.
The psionic system needs an overall, as the nova nature of it in 3.5 was completely broken. I personally don't like the psionic point systems and would love for it to go the way of the buffalo, properly replaced.
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The psionic system needs an overall, as the nova nature of it in 3.5 was completely broken. I personally don't like the psionic point systems and would love for it to go the way of the buffalo, properly replaced.I, on the other hand, like the psionic point system, and want to see it 'replaced' with an improvement on the existing point system that puts a few limits on spamming and novas.
(Incidentally, if you set 1 ki point equal to 1 power point per 2 monk levels, the qinggong monk archetype from Ultimate Magic is, numbers-wise, very similar to the existing psionic classes. He even has a power list, albeit an anemic one.)
I don't know how you would nerf it without caps, and caps would change the whole thing...
And I agree the Qinggong monk is functionally psionics...which is why I am not the biggest fan.
Psionics is popular, and I would be a complete hypocrite to say "No" when this thread is all about more options. But it is tough to figure out how to balance it without to many cavaets in the rules that weigh down the class.
Being able to pump powerpoints into a single standard action could get a bit ridiculous in 3.5.
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1. Everyone claims to be a realist, yet the self proclaimed realists don't agree. Perhaps self identification doesn't mean much. Paizo also introduced the human preferred class bonuses. Perhaps spontaneous casters only get delayed spell access for legacy reasons. If WotC didn't make mistakes we wouldn't be playing Pathfinder.2. Novaing wouldn't be complained about if it weren't a problem. Your proposed solution has been proposed with great vigor for quite some time but the problem persists. I can only conclude that your proposed solution doesn't work for everyone.
3. How about rage as an example of lame broken and haste as an example of powerful broken.
Two level 3 wizard spells. Rage gives +1 melee to hit, +1 damage in melee or with slings, and some temporary hitpoints that don't get lost first like proper temporary hitpoints because they're from temporary Con. In turn it drops the "beneficiary" by 1 AC and hits them with the same action restrictions as barbarian rage. Haste effects more people, gives an extra attack at full BAB starting at a level where nobody has iteratives yet, and gives +1 AC, +1 to hit, and a 30' movement speed boost. Why would someone ever choose the former? Why would someone ever not choose the latter? The best case for rage versus haste is someone who never makes full attacks and doesn't want that extra 30' of movement and even he's getting one damage in place of one AC. Judging by power attack and combat expertise or weapon specialization and dodge one AC is worth two damage if you believe the developers.
I'll respond to 1 and 3 with your Haste example.
Haste is pretty much useless to a Wizard. It is a third level spell that lasts rounds per level that grants an extra attack. The wizard isn't going into melee, so he isn't using it on himself. That would be a waste of a spell slot and standard action. If he memorizes it, it is likely only for one of his slots considering he is at least 5th level when he gets it and other 3rd level spells are better. Only reason a wizard would get haste I can think of is for crafting purposes.
Now the sorcerer who picks up haste, he just keeps it in his back pocket. He could cast it several times a day to buff someone, including himself, and if it is never useful, no harm no foul.
But honestly, Haste isn't an ideal spell for either, since neither would use it on themselves and it can be acquired by those who would use it in potion or equipment form.
What you consider "broken" about haste is beyond me. It is an extra attack, +1 to AC, +1 to attack bonus and reflex saves, increased movement, all good things, but the earliest you can have it is 5th level.
Now lets look at rage. +2 to strength and Con means hit, damage and hit points go up, as does will with a -2 to ac. Haste is better, but rage is also medium range, which is nice if you don't want to have to get into melee range to buff your melee buddies.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make pointing out an underpowered spell. But haste is certainly not overpowered.
As two point 2, pick an AP and I will show you under spoilers where the person who wrote the AP designed it so that if you nova, you will quickly run out of resources before the end of an adventuring day.
Only bad DMs let caster nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day.
Haste is pretty much useless to a Wizard. It is a third level spell that lasts rounds per level that grants an extra attack. The wizard isn't going into melee, so he isn't using it on himself. That would be a waste of a spell slot and standard action. If he memorizes it, it is likely only for one of his slots considering he is at least 5th level when he gets it and other 3rd level spells...
I agree that haste is a poor choice for a "broken" spell (slow is better and it isn't broken either). But lets not pretend for a second that transmuters can't make full use of this spell. Transmuters can and do go into melee. Some players choose to wait for polymorph any object. (a spell that is actually broken).
Only bad DMs let caster nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day.
Only bad DM's try to stop players from making choices because they don't like them.
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Haste is pretty much useless to a Wizard. It is a third level spell that lasts rounds per level that grants an extra attack. The wizard isn't going into melee, so he isn't using it on himself. That would be a waste of a spell slot and standard action. If he memorizes it, it is likely only for one of his slots considering he is at least 5th level when he gets it and other 3rd level spells...I agree that haste is a poor choice for a "broken" spell (slow is better and it isn't broken either). But lets not pretend for a second that transmuters can't make full use of this spell. Transmuters can and do go into melee. Some players choose to wait for polymorph any object. (a spell that is actually broken).
Only bad DM's try to stop players from making choices because they don't like them.
Only bad DMs let caster nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day.
You can make choices. And choices will always have consequences. If you leave to recover, why wouldn't the enemy also regroup? Or worse, follow you and attack you while you are weak and out of spells.
Transmuters can go into melee. And now you've burned two spells.
You can make choices. And choices will always have consequences. If you leave to recover, why wouldn't the enemy also regroup? Or worse, follow you and attack you while you are weak and out of spells.
Maybe you would have been better off saying "Only bad DM's let casters nap and recover spells in the middle of enemy territory." Then your arguement would have solid ground to stand on. But an "adventuring day" doesn't imply anything really. Bar hoping to gather information is totally part of adventuring.
Transmuters can go into melee. And now you've burned two spells.
Maybe. Or maybe you used one of your thousands of scrolls. Either way, it doesn't really mean anything.
Anyway, its probably best we didn't get into this. It isn't on topic.
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You can make choices. And choices will always have consequences. If you leave to recover, why wouldn't the enemy also regroup? Or worse, follow you and attack you while you are weak and out of spells.Maybe you would have been better off saying "Only bad DM's let casters nap and recover spells in the middle of enemy territory." Then your arguement would have solid ground to stand on. But an "adventuring day" doesn't imply anything really. Bar hoping to gather information is totally part of adventuring.
Transmuters can go into melee. And now you've burned two spells.Maybe. Or maybe you used one of your thousands of scrolls. Either way, it doesn't really mean anything.
Anyway, its probably best we didn't get into this. It isn't on topic.
As I said, name an AP and I'll show you where they try to extend you adventuring day and make you pay for leaving and coming back. Enemy territory is anywhere your enemy can get to you. You are looking for them, and once they see you as an enemy and a danger, they are then looking for you.
Scrolls cost money, and are a move action to get out, if you have a handy haversack, and have to be read (good luck in the dark), are fragile, etc...you might as well drink a potion at that point.
It is only semi-off topic, as casting is the topic and someone was trying to argue the lack of balance in the current system.
As I said, name an AP and I'll show you where they try to extend you adventuring day and make you pay for leaving and coming back.Enemy territory is anywhere your enemy can get to you. You are looking for them, and once they see you as an enemy and a danger, they are then looking for you.
Name an AP and I'll name something I couldn't care less about. Adventure paths are poorly written crap IMHO. If you disagree, cool.
You originally said "Only bad DMs let casters nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day." You said this as a declarative statement in a paragraph independent and non-referential. Which does imply that you think a DM is bad if he lets a wizard sleep while exploring the woods.
So I walk into the city, and decide that I should ask around about the local rumors of zombies in the country side. I have used most of my spells for the day so I decide that I should rest even though its still early and maybe memorize some spells that can help with the investigation, and then...suddenly ninjas? Because that's how good DM's roll? "Days not over, no spells for you!" Because I have enemies the world over or something? Why do I even have enemies?
I'm not saying that adventurers don't or shouldn't have enemies or something like that. But why is it the default assumption? Not all adventures even involve intelligent enemies. Sometimes the dungeon really is filled with giant spiders and zombies.
Scrolls cost money, and are a move action to get out, if you have a handy haversack, and have to be read (good luck in the dark), are fragile, etc...you might as well drink a potion at that point.
Scrolls don't cost enough to care. Casters don't need nearly as much gear as other classes do. They have plenty of money to spare. Not since basic and Ad&d have I ever seen a wizard (except ones played by new players) who have had any issue with spells per day after 5th level, except maybe once or twice in the duration of the ENTIRE campaign. Even when I through ten or more challenges at party. Sorcerers have a harder time with spells per day than wizards do.
If your an adventurer light isn't an issue unless an enemy is trying to magically make it an issue. Ion torches are dirt cheap, light is a cantrip, and every other light source is so cheap it could just as well say 'free'.
It is only semi-off topic, as casting is the topic and someone was trying to argue the lack of balance in the current system.
Its your thread :)
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Name an AP and I'll name something I couldn't care less about. Adventure paths are poorly written crap IMHO. If you disagree, cool.
You originally said "Only bad DMs let casters nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day." You said this as a declarative statement in a paragraph independent and non-referential. Which does imply that you think a DM is bad if he lets a wizard sleep while exploring the woods.
So I walk into the city, and decide that I should ask around about the local rumors of zombies in the country side. I have used most of my spells for the day so I decide that I should rest even though its still early and maybe memorize some spells that can help with the investigation, and then...suddenly ninjas? Because that's how good DM's roll? "Days not over, no spells for you!" Because I have enemies the world over or something? Why do I even have enemies?
I'm not saying that adventurers don't or shouldn't have enemies or something like that. But why is it the default assumption? Not all adventures even involve intelligent enemies. Sometimes the dungeon really is filled with giant spiders and zombies.
So to be clear, the AP's are poorly written...why you don't say, but you do say they are poorly written.
But my criticism of DM's who allow 15 minute days and don't have consequences for leaving things unfinished to run away and memorize new spells is out of bounds somehow?
Looking at your example, what are you investigating? If it's murders, than probably more will occur while you aren't stopping them.
In your games you walk into town and something is happening, you start to deal with it, but when you run out of spells the world goes on timeout until you take a nap? Is that what you are saying?
I mean, if we are putting words into each others mouths...
So to be clear, the AP's are poorly written...why you don't say, but you do say they are poorly written.
Why I don't like AP's irreverent. The only reason I brought it up is to show that I don't care what someone once wrote in an AP. They aren't relevant to the discussion.
But my criticism of DM's who allow 15 minute days and don't have consequences for leaving things unfinished to run away and memorize new spells is out of bounds somehow?
No. Only the words you chose to express that. Your quote doesn't account for all situations and does (like it or not) insinuate that you think adventurers should always be punished for resting early no matter what the given circumstance are. That's fallacious on all kinds of levels.
Looking at your example, what are you investigating? If it's murders, than probably more will occur while you aren't stopping them.
My example is nothing more than a parody of your statement that DM's are bad if they allow wizards to regain spells during an adventure by going to sleep earlier.
In your games you walk into town and something is happening, you start to deal with it, but when you run out of spells the world goes on timeout until you take a nap? Is that what you are saying?
Not at all. I'm saying that logical consequence is the only type of consequence that should apply to the game. Your statement inplies the contrary.
I mean, if we are putting words into each others mouths...
I didn't put any words in your mouth. The statement "Only bad DMs let caster[s] nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day." really does imply that you think it would be better for enemies (ninjas in my example) to ambush the caster than it would be to let the player regain some spells.
Anyway...now I really AM convinced that this isn't going to stay on topic. I'd be happy to continue this in a "Should wizards be allowed to rest?" thread. But not here.
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I didn't put any words in your mouth. The statement "Only bad DMs let caster[s] nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day." really does imply that you think it would be better for enemies (ninjas in my example) to ambush the caster than it would be to let the player regain some spells.
Anyway...now I really AM convinced that this isn't going to stay on topic. I'd be happy to continue this in a "Should wizards be allowed to rest?"
The game is designed on the assumption of a minimum of 4 equal CR encounters a day. Absolute Minimum. And this is assuming you have a party of 4, following WBL, on point buy. If not, they should be facing over CR encounters 4 times a day. Minimum.
The APs are completely relevant, as they are the only basis of comparison we can all look to for determining the intent of the designers. I don't know what you run, or how you run. I can only make assumptions. The AP exists, and we can look at it. If your criticism comes from them not allowing time to rest, my praise comes from that very same fact.
If you are running adventures without deadlines and allowing the Wizard to leave to learn new spells whenever he is out, and not having enemies adjust tactics, then yes the Wizard will be overpowered.
Just as if you have monsters always move before attacking and never get full attacks, problems will arise.
You think the APs are examples of poorly made campaigns, but are criticizing my statement that Wizards should have to play the game as designed.
It is as it would be if the game were "real". Things don't wait for your to rest up before you can do something about them. Things happen and you need to react.
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The game is designed on the assumption of a minimum of 4 equal CR encounters a day.
No it is not. It's designed with the assumption that 4 encounters of equal CR should exhaust the party. It then says that harder or easier encounters will increase or decrease the number of encounters the party can handle. There is no minimum number of encounters, nor maximum number.