I can see two cases where it works just fine. The most obvious being the barbarian has a feat or ability that allows them to rage even when unconscious.
In the second case, it still gives you more of a cushion, it's like having your level added to how much damage you take before you die. So, you still lose your extra hit points from ranging but it takes more to kill you.
For example, a 10th-level barbarian (with 18 Con) would gain 20 hp from raging. Let's say he has 15 hp and takes 20 hp from a hit. He drops to -5, guarded life kicks in, so he is at 5 hp with 10 points of non-lethal damage. That knocks the barbarian unconscious so he loses the extra 20 hp. That means he is at -15 hp and stable. That's much better than -25, unstable, and dead.
I can see two cases where it works just fine. The most obvious being the barbarian has a feat or ability that allows them to rage even when unconscious.Agreed. Raging vitality is an absolute must with this power. Without it, I don't even think guarded life can kick in.
You get to select the order in which various effects take place, i.e. before you apply the 'dead' effect you can apply the guarded life effect. So, while you may technically be at -25 at some point, you don't actually die because guarded life raises you back up to -15 before you apply the results of being dead.
Yes, at low levels this would help. At high levels the HP from raging has drastically outpaced your guarded life ability. At lvl 20 a barbarian gains 80 HP from raging, but can only cover 20 hp with guarded life. Nothing in the game has that kind of Con to survive a 60 HP drop.
My point was that it isn't entirely useless, not that it is useful under all conditions. There are quite a few feats and abilities that lose usefulness as you increase in level. Essentially, this ability devolves down to you automatically stabilize when raging.
In the second case, it still gives you more of a cushion, it's like having your level added to how much damage you take before you die.
Making it completely useless because when you fall unconscious, you lose at least twice your level HP unless you have the Barbarian power to Rage while unconscious. It's a hidden pre-req treed power.
Would it be overpowered for Guarded Life to just convert to nonlethal damage an amount of damage equal to your Con mod increase from rage? Basically have it exactly cancel the HP drop?
Making it completely useless because when you fall unconscious, you lose at least twice your level HP unless you have the Barbarian power to Rage while unconscious. It's a hidden pre-req treed power.
In the second case, it still gives you more of a cushion, it's like having your level added to how much damage you take before you die.
It's not completely useless. See my example above. With the power your are unconscious and alive, without it you're dead. Seems pretty useful to me. :-P
I'm not trying to argue this is an uber-ability that every barbarian needs. It seems most useful in the low to mid level range. Too low level and you don't get much benefit. Too high a level and it isn't enough to save you from dying because your rage ends.
It's only useful when your Constitution plus your level is greater than the hit points you receive from raging.
If I was making a 10th level barbarian for a one-off adventure this would be pretty good otherwise I would rank it a solid Meh.
I do think it needs a re-write so that when you get greater rage and mighty rage, that you get some benefit.
Would it be overpowered for Guarded Life to just convert to nonlethal damage an amount of damage equal to your Con mod increase from rage? Basically have it exactly cancel the HP drop?
That would eliminate any chance that you could die from your rage ending. I don't think that is what the designers had in mind for this. Rather they were looking to reduce the likelihood of your character dying.
I would probably go with double your level back with greater rage and triple your level back with mighty rage.
Another way to fix it: For ever 2 damage converted to nonlethal, you only recieve 1.
So, rewritten:
Guarded Life (Ex): While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points, 1 hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage, but you only take 1/2 of that in nonlethal (the rest is removed).
If the barbarian is at negative hit points due to lethal damage, she immediately stabilizes.
So Say you are 30 hps and take 32 at level 10, you would be -2, but 10 damage is removed.
Leaving you at 8 hp and 5 nonlethal (instead of 10).
But more damage you take the less useful this is even than.
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Not the greatest choice, I agree, but i can think of one situation where its especially handy. If you are playing an invulnerable rage barbarian, take a look at how well this combo can work: IR barbs gain DR X/-, where X is 1/2 of class level. This DR is DOUBLED against nonlethal damage, so that means they have DR equal to their class level for non-lethal damage. So lets look at this situation presented by Tim again.
For example, a 10th-level barbarian (with 18 Con) would gain 20 hp from raging. Let's say he has 15 hp and takes 20 hp from a hit. He drops to -5, guarded life kicks in, so he is at 5 hp with 10 points of non-lethal damage. That knocks the barbarian unconscious so he loses the extra 20 hp. That means he is at -15 hp and stable. That's much better than -25, unstable, and dead.
Same situation, down to 15 HP and takes 20 damage. Here our IR barb has DR 5/-, so flat out the damage is reduced to 15, dropping him to 0. Guarded life doesn't even have to kick in. Now, lets say he took 21 points of damage, or 16 after DR. Drops the barb to -1 hp, guarded life kicks in and turns 10 of that damage to nonlethal. Barb has DR 10 vs nonlethal damage, so that is completely negated, net result is barb takes 6 points of damage and sits at 9hp. Seems VERY useful to the IR barb, IMO.
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Matt and others have brought up more details than I was even aware of,
but I think the main ´question´ about this Power is still simply it´s appicability for when Rage is dropped.
The fact that it ultimately doesn´t cover all the Rage HPs lost from Rage doesn´t concern me, that was almost certainly intended.
But there is an issue with order of operations that I think may NOT have been intended:
If you drop Rage, let´s say from Calm Emotions, you lose Rage HPs immediately AFTER you are no longer Raging... which means the abilty doesn´t apply per RAW... This is also true if you drop Rage because damage sent you unconscious (and you don´t have the appropriate Feat to counter that). Twice in the ability it directly references being at negative HPs, which isn´t even normally possible while Raging... Which leads me to think the INTENT is that the ability SHOULD still kick in if you were raging before whatever affect caused you to drop Rage.
Hmm there is an issue as to whether the converted damage [ie from lethal to non-lethal] gets to apply DR/non-lethal. It is quite likely that DR applies only to the initial attack and NOT the converted non-lethal damage as it may not be an attack per se. This was pointed out to me previously on another thread!
You wouldn´t apply normal DR a second time, since it´s the same attack.
Now that the damage qualifies as Non-Lethal, Non-Lethal DR should apply.
(i.e. the difference between increased DR vs. non-Lethal and normal DR)
Not much different than if an ability converted Fire damage to Cold, and you had Cold resistance.
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Same situation, down to 15 HP and takes 20 damage. Here our IR barb has DR 5/-, so flat out the damage is reduced to 15, dropping him to 0. Guarded life doesn't even have to kick in. Now, lets say he took 21 points of damage, or 16 after DR. Drops the barb to -1 hp, guarded life kicks in and turns 10 of that damage to nonlethal. Barb has DR 10 vs nonlethal damage, so that is completely negated, net result is barb takes 6 points of damage and sits at 9hp. Seems VERY useful to the IR barb, IMO.
The problem there is that you don't get to apply your DR twice in that situation. The Barbarian takes 21 Hit Points of damage, reduced to 16 thanks to his DR, which drops him to -1. Guarded Life kicks in and turns 10 of the damage to non-lethal... but the Barbarian doesn't get to apply his DR a second time to that damage because: a) it's already been applied to that hit, and b) DR doesn't apply to damage inflicted upon you by your own class features (which is what the non-lethal damage is here), only normal physical damage. So he's now at 10 Non-lethal damage and 9 Hit Points, falls unconscious, stops raging, and loses another 20 Hit Points... putting him on 10 non-lethal and at -11 Hit Points. Granted, if he'd just taken the hit straight (without Guarded Life) he'd have been on -21 after falling unconscious, but for my money I'd still rather skip the Guarded Life, take the Diehard Feat, and happily be swigging potions of cure the very next round...
One helpful house rule for Invulnerable Ragers may be to allow their (normal) DR to apply a second time to the Guarded Life inflicted non-lethal, to represent the usual doubling of DR Vs non-lethal. In that case the example Barbarian wouldn't subtract 5 for the initial hit and 10 from the non-lethal, but would subtract 5 from the initial hit, then another 5 (representing the usual doubling Vs non-lethal) Vs the Guarded Life inflicted non-lethal damage.
But any way you look at it Guarded Life is pretty much a death sentance for a Barbarian who's made it to level 11 or higher.
A simpler, and more useful, rage power with the same basic concept would just be a rage (or 'post rage' if you prefer) power which reduces the post-rage Hit Point crash (maybe one that means the Barbarian just loses their level in Hit Points if they get KO'd whist raging, instead of the normal 2x, 3x, or 4x their level in Hit Points?) which would be much more helpful in actually guarding the guy's life than Guarded Life is...
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Hmm there is an issue as to whether the converted damage [ie from lethal to non-lethal] gets to apply DR/non-lethal. It is quite likely that DR applies only to the initial attack and NOT the converted non-lethal damage as it may not be an attack per se. This was pointed out to me previously on another thread!
It shouldn't matter the source of the non-lethal damage; non-lethal damage is non-lethal damage if it comes from heat, exhaustion, or in this case regular damage being converted. It does not say it only applies to non-lethal damage from specific attacks, it says the barb has its level worth of non-lethal DR. As far as I know, DR applies all the time; on fact most abilities have to specifiy that it automatically overcomes DR.
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The problem there is that you don't get to apply your DR twice in that situation. The Barbarian takes 21 Hit Points of damage, reduced to 16 thanks to his DR, which drops him to -1. Guarded Life kicks in and turns 10 of the damage to non-lethal... but the Barbarian doesn't get to apply his DR a second time to that damage because: a) it's already been applied to that hit, and b) DR doesn't apply to damage inflicted upon you by your own class features (which is what the non-lethal damage is here), only normal physical damage. So he's now at 10 Non-lethal damage and 9 Hit Points, falls unconscious, stops raging, and loses another 20 Hit Points... putting him on 10 non-lethal and at -11 Hit Points. Granted, if he'd just taken the hit straight (without Guarded Life) he'd have been on -21 after falling unconscious, but for my money I'd still rather skip the Guarded Life, take the Diehard Feat, and happily be swigging potions of cure the very next round...
But you ARENT applying the DR twice, they are seperate DRs. One DR for lethal another for nonlethal. You get hit, you've applied the DR for the lethal damage. Guarded life kicks in and then that damage is NOW non-lethal, meaning its now relavant for the non-lethal DR to stop it.
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'... The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks...' (Core book, page 561)
... Your own class features damaging you isn't a 'normal attack'.
Except the damge WAS from the attack. Just because a power converts the TYPE of damage, doesnt change the source of the damage. Its not the rage power doing the non-lethal damage, its the attack. The power just changes the type of the damage.
One helpful house rule for Invulnerable Ragers may be to allow their (normal) DR to apply a second time to the Guarded Life inflicted non-lethal, to represent the usual doubling of DR Vs non-lethal. In that case the example Barbarian wouldn't subtract 5 for the initial hit and 10 from the non-lethal, but would subtract 5 from the initial hit, then another 5 (representing the usual doubling Vs non-lethal) Vs the Guarded Life inflicted non-lethal damage.
Guarded life isn´t INFLICTING any damage, it´s CONVERTING the type of damage that you took.
There is no need for a separate application of DR to cover what you describe, for cases like Invulnerable Rager where their DR is more effective vs. certain damage types (non-lethal), the DR simply works more effectively vs. the converted damage type.When you read the Invulernable Rager ´DR doubled vs. Non-Lethal´ ability, it´s obvious that the ability effectively functions as an automatic ´second pass´ vs. Non-Lethal (nothing to do with Guarded Life). This is similar in approach to damage multipliers for Crits, Lance charges, etc, which for each xN above 1, adds N-1 to the base damage, just in reverse. The same would hold for cases where you have DR/slashing and DR/- which both apply (and stack) vs. a given attack, which happens to be half slashing and half another damage type.
But you ARENT applying the DR twice, they are seperate DRs.
Not exactly, though this is effectively true (more potent non-lethal DR is essentially it´s own DR step only applicable vs. nonlethal). If you have an attack applying partially normal damage and partially non-lethal, you don´t apply your entire DR (including normal DR and extra-potent nonlethal DR) to each part, you are still only applying DR normally, once per attack... it just happens that it is extra effective agaisnt the non-lethal portion. See my previous comments.
In any case, THIS COULD OBVIOUSLY USE A FAQ ;-)|
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Right, so...
At best the Invulnerable Rager's DR should function as my suggested house rule: so the example Barbarian is taking off 5 for his DR, and then another 5 for the fact his DR is usually double Vs non-lethal. This means you're looking at the damage as a single hit.
At worst the Invulnerable Rager has applied his DR to the attack already, and the non-lethal he's taking is damage from his class feature, so no DR is applied at all. This means you're looking at the damage as one initial hit followed by class feature damage.
I can't see any case for the guy being allowed to apply triple his normal DR to the damage (and in Kabump's original example). This would mean you're looking at the damage as two seperate hits - one which inflicts lethal damage, and one which inflicts non-lethal damage - but are completely ignoring the origins of the latter damage.
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I disagree with Matt that DR cares so much about a specific order of operations that the RAW would result in the described situation of a (Guarded Life-modified) attack not having it´s ´full and just´ DR (vs. all types) applied, because the damage type-modification occured after damage was applied. The fundamental rule for DR is simply that it applies once per attack, and ´updating´ the single application of DR so all aspects fully apply vs. the same attack (and it´s damage type(s)) isn´t violating that.
But I don´t really care to argue that any further... The ability needs some FAQ love, and not just around that issue.
And BTW, I´ve been meaning to for a bit, but keep forgetting... Welcome to the boards, Matt!
You seem like a fairly new poster, but always seem to have a pleasant and productive angle on things.
Lilith would usually hand out cookies, but I suppose that´s now outside the remit of her official position...
SO... Have a Dessert Bar! :-)
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Right, so...
At best the Invulnerable Rager's DR should function as my suggested house rule: so the example Barbarian is taking off 5 for his DR, and then another 5 for the fact his DR is usually double Vs non-lethal. This means you're looking at the damage as a single hit.
At worst the Invulnerable Rager has applied his DR to the attack already, and the non-lethal he's taking is damage from his class feature, so no DR is applied at all. This means you're looking at the damage as one initial hit followed by class feature damage.
I can't see any case for the guy being allowed to apply triple his normal DR to the damage (and in Kabump's original example). This would mean you're looking at the damage as two seperate hits - one which inflicts lethal damage, and one which inflicts non-lethal damage - but are completely ignoring the origins of the latter damage.
We have different ideas on how this works. I can see where your logic is coming from, however. I just dont agree that is how things are actually happening. I just disagree with how your interpreting things, as its all applying at the same time. In order to process the information, we HAVE to split into phases, it would be humanly impossible to calculate the stuff in "real time" as its happening. I dont think its a big deal, as this is a very corner case and the conditions for it to work have to be just right, its not like this happens on EVERY attack. We need a concisely worded post on this however to flag for a FAQ.
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I think the problem with that is that there are multiple things wrong/confusing with Guarded Life. Its tough to put into a one sentence question. I am hoping that the developers will figure out what they want to say and then right a concise question for that answer.
That's true. Perhaps a summation post in here covering all the multiple cases that need addressed :)