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Why spend a precious feat on Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm and all those other maneuver feats when you only need a Tank (ex: Shield Fighter in Full Plate) with Mobility to execute all those maneuvers with little risk? You see, all those feats only give you a +2 to your CMB for executing a specific maneuver without provoking an AoO. As a Tank with Mobility, you only need to move around in circle within the threatened squares of your opponents to make them waste their AoO on you. After this, you, and all your allies, can try to perform the maneuver you want on them without provoking AoO, unless your opponent have Combat Reflexes, until the end of the round.
Sure, some monsters will be able to hit the Tank even with his Mobility bonus to AC. However, you don't really want to try a maneuver on those kind of monsters. ;)
He's saying draw the AoO first to avoid them on the desirable maneuver. I've done that tons of times.
I think his point is that without Combat Reflexes, a monster only gets one AoO per turn. Have them waste it by moving around and using Mobility for the AC bonus, and then when you trip them, they can't AoO you again.
edit: sniped.
You don't have to take an Attack Of Opportunity when it presents it's self. You can save it until the trip is preformed. Of course most opponents won't pass up an attack of opportunity the first time around but the second time they will. I'm more thinking from DM point of view, if I did this to my players they'd catch on quick.
In my group the tank often grabs mobility using it draw AOO from reach creatures so the rest of the party can move in.
He's saying draw the AoO first to avoid them on the desirable maneuver. I've done that tons of times.It's still not as good as simply not having to deal with the AOO in the first place, plus you lose the bonuses on your roll and you lose the potential of using maneuvers on a full attack. Also, you need a foe who doesn't have Combat Reflexes, who isn't smart enough to see through this, and you need to be a very high AC combatant, in addition to the usual limitations of maneuvers.
This. Is an awesome idea in some case, but say is a substitution is a little bit too much.
He's saying draw the AoO first to avoid them on the desirable maneuver. I've done that tons of times.It's still not as good as simply not having to deal with the AOO in the first place, plus you lose the bonuses on your roll and you lose the potential of using maneuvers on a full attack. Also, you need a foe who doesn't have Combat Reflexes, who isn't smart enough to see through this, and you need to be a very high AC combatant, in addition to the usual limitations of maneuvers.
It's more related with how the GM handles metagame knowledge than the intelligence of the foe. If you're smart, you'll use Mobility to get a flanking position, not only to draw an AoO from your opponent, so he wouldn't have any reason to suspect that this is a dirty trick (at least not the first time). Enemies with Combat Reflexes are few and far between, unless your GM use metagame knowledge against you. While you won't get a full attack because of the move action you are spending, some of your allies will, so that's not a bad tactic at all.
Saying it was a substitution for Combat Maneuver feats was a hyperbole from my part, but if you're feat starving and you like to play a Tank, that's a viable option.
you lose the potential of using maneuvers on a full attack.
Improved Maneuver Feats don't really do anything to allow in-place-of-attack maneuvers instead of normal action economy.
Anyways, even pretend that you don't have Mobility... But that you are maneuvering around an opponent, such as with closing to melee, and will draw an AoO anyway. If they take it, whether or not they hit, you are now in the position to try any Maneuver without AoO unless they have Combat Reflexes. So Mobility just protects you from damage/maneuver AoO in this scenario. So in other words, everybody who doesn't have every Maneuver Feat should be aware of this tactic, to recognize when it happens and more Maneuver options do open up.
I'm going to put out there that provoking an AoO is never fun, can get you killed very quickly, and generally a bad idea to do unless it is a do or die situation. Especially on monsters with moves that can take you out of combat with a single failed save.
This. You'd better have an ungodly AC, 100s of HPs or be pretty confident in the incompetence of your foes to attempt this. I can see trying to provoke a single AoO to clear the way for a comrade, but multiple attacks is asking for a trip to the hospital or the morgue.
This line of thought works well right up until you draw an AOO and get crit or draw an AOO and get hit with an attack which requires a save which you fail. Drawing the AoO on the move to position is a smart tactical play but it is a risk none the less. I don't believe Mobility is end all be all answer, as it's best not to provoke at all.
The question is do you value not provoking on a certain CMB to make the requisite investments.
He's saying draw the AoO first to avoid them on the desirable maneuver. I've done that tons of times.
I've always seen "drawing someone off their guard" as a standard tactic, nothing unusual at all. Because of that, it's not unusual for my smarter/more paranoid monsters to pass on "obvious" chances for attacks of opportunity lest they be tripped, grappled, disarmed, bull rushed, overrun, or sundered.
While some fear being hit, it's often smarter to suck up one attack than it is to let some bruiser unload his full attack sequence on you. Also, several people can benefit from the AoO one party member suffers: I've seen one guy (generally the toughest tank in the party) suffer a hit to let his whole party position themselves where they can savage their enemies (fighters and rogues surrounding the enemy mage, with the casters and archers corked up where foes can't touch them).
Sure there's some risk: Taking that risk is an adventurer's job.
I already used this tactics a few times in the 3.5 game that I play. I never used it against BBEGs (giants, monsters with the grab or trip special attacks, etc.), because it would be suicidal, and who would try a combat maneuvre against a dragon anyway? It works best against medium and small sized goons, which are more vulnerable to combat maneuvers and have a lower melee attack bonus. I also used it against a tough NPC with a very high AC to trip him, allowing the monk PC to flurry him (and stun him) whit the +4 bonus that you get against a prone opponent. Still, I will probably take Improved Trip next level (6) only for the extra attack that it gives you against opponents that you trip (in 3.5).
People always say that sword'n'board with sky high AC is a suboptimal built. It's true if your main focus is DPR, but, in fact, sword'n'board is the best "battlefield control" fighter type.
I'm going to put out there that provoking an AoO is never fun, can get you killed very quickly, and generally a bad idea to do unless it is a do or die situation. Especially on monsters with moves that can take you out of combat with a single failed save.
That's why I pick my spots. Sometimes it's absolutely worth the risk.
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The real winner is the ninja who can spend a ki point to fake a rogue talent, that rogue talent is combat feat, that combat feat is one of the combat maneuver feats, though you still have to have the prerequisites for those feats, but if that was how you were building the ninja all along, then it's pretty easy to just blow a ki point for an advantage.
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Why spend a precious feat on Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm and all those other maneuver feats when you only need a Tank (ex: Shield Fighter in Full Plate) with Mobility to execute all those maneuvers with little risk? You see, all those feats only give you a +2 to your CMB for executing a specific maneuver without provoking an AoO. As a Tank with Mobility, you only need to move around in circle within the threatened squares of your opponents to make them waste their AoO on you. After this, you, and all your allies, can try to perform the maneuver you want on them without provoking AoO, unless your opponent have Combat Reflexes, until the end of the round.
Sure, some monsters will be able to hit the Tank even with his Mobility bonus to AC. However, you don't really want to try a maneuver on those kind of monsters. ;)
Its possible to do that yes. You're also worst at performing those maneuvers then the person as you lack the bonus and you take the attacks which can injure you absorbing precious supplies. Not only that it takes the right circumstance to be able to do your ability.
Also you lack the ability to hit the greater feats that grant special abilities and at that point you fall even further behind compared.
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Wow, you can do that. What sort of action does it take to activate forgotten trick? *hopes for free action*
That's a good question, it doesn't really say, this implies standard action, which is pretty dumb if you ask me, but it is pretty much the most powerful ninja trick until some of the advanced ones. Now, because you can only take one feat at any given time, you have to take the prerequisites for those feats, but that's no big deal, most of the prerequisites are pretty good.
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I've used Mobility to use up the AoO of a Bebilith. I did get hit and it did hurt, but now the wizard was allowed to move out of combat and start casting spells at the damn thing. And when I did it, the entire group was looking at me like I was stupid until the DM tried to AoO said wizard only for me to ask if the Bebilith had Combat Reflexes. It's a dangerous tactic of course and there are some situations where it isn't viable (you better have ghost touch armor and shields if you have to do this against incorporeal undead and that stuff is expensive) but it certainly is a tactic both PCs and very intelligent foes should keep in mind.