Too lazy to read the whole thread and avoid repeating stuff that was already said, but here's what I remember needing a fix in "Burnt Offerings":
The oddly-rotated map grid for the Glassworks. OMG. That place is a PITA to draw out. Definitely needs to be fixed.
I think there should be at least a pair of vargouilles in the Catacombs, but that's largely a matter of person taste.
I actually *like* that Erylium is so difficult to overcome. Yes, my players whined about it. Too bad for them. Some stuff is SUPPOSED to be hard.
One minor gripe about the encounter with Lyrie in D15: this area is too small for her to be an effective and memorable foe, IMO. I've both played in and run this adventure, and both times the party fighters just cornered her and beat her to a pulp.
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In my game, Lyrie heard the heroes coming, made herself invisible (leveled up a bit cause the party is large) and hid until they left, fleeing from Melfeshnekor), untied the forgotten Orik who helped her empty the library, and the pair headed to Magnimar.
In book two, they ran into Orik on the street who asked for their help, giving them a bit of info on Ironbriar being dirty. Later, they discovered Lyrie was part of the cult, and Orik was their unwilling sacrifice for the meeting when the PCs broke in. Lyrie still dropped pretty quick, but it was definitely more interesting than her being the sole enemy in a small room.
- The Graul estate is well done, but reintroducing some of the cut content might make it even better. And I'd like some more information on how these creatures fit into the area and the opposition. Most importantly, why didn't the Black Arrows take care of them? Developing the whole area a bit more would be perfect.
Having read some of that cut content, I don't know how much of it would really add to the quality of the encounters. I personally enjoyed reading it and implementing it, but I can see why some of it was cut. It basically takes the quotient of disgusting material included in the final release and ramps it up from an 8 to an 11. Some of the implied gruesome details could really turn off readers - and that would be a shame, because I'd hate for someone to miss out on the awesomeness that is Runelords because of gratuitous and unnecessary grossness.
I keep hearing this, but just like any good rubbernecker on the highway, I want to see it anyway. Is there a PG-13 suammry of what was cut, or, better yet, someplace I can see it for myself online?
IIRC, we ended the Erylium encounter with my raging barbarian grappling and drowning her, so it wasn't as aggravating as it could have been. Mighty satisfying as a matter of fact..
I keep hearing this, but just like any good rubbernecker on the highway, I want to see it anyway. Is there a PG-13 suammry of what was cut, or, better yet, someplace I can see it for myself online?
I have a copy stashed somewhere on my hard drive that was passed on secondhand. I'd gladly post it here under a spoiler tag, provided it wouldn't ruffle any feathers with the Paizo peeps. Anybody know if that's kosher to do or not?
The module still plays out exactly the same way without that content, however - it's purely shock value for players (which is occasionally a good thing, IMO).
I keep hearing this, but just like any good rubbernecker on the highway, I want to see it anyway. Is there a PG-13 suammry of what was cut, or, better yet, someplace I can see it for myself online?
A while back, Nick recounted it on the Sinister Adventure boards... Not that that does anyone any good now..
Maybe email, or post it in Googledocs with a link? Again, only if that's legal and above-board.
I'd love to see what was cut, as the group I'm DMing for is will be completing Burnt Offerings within the next two sessions. If you're willing, could you email it to me?
mets3am at gmail dot com
Hmm, I've scoured my gaming folders and can't seem to put my hands on it at the moment. There really wasn't much more than about a page and a half of content, though, from what I remember.
Two of the Graul kids share a chamber and one of them - a female, I believe - has a vestigial head growing out of her neck that coos and sighs at random intervals, likely as a result of flatulence. The other Graul child in the room, a male, is erotically infatuated with the vestigial head and feeds it spicy foods so that it will "talk" to him.
Also, in Fort Rannick, there's a scene where a disemboweled captive prisoner is tied to a chair and has been magically compelled to eat his own innards. The PCs enter the room to find him happily dining on his own intestines.
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The second one is kinda gross, but not overly moreso than the rest of the book.
The first one you list, I think, actually takes away from how awesome the module is now, thanks to
The second one is kinda gross, but not overly moreso than the rest of the book.
The first one you list, I think, actually takes away from how awesome the module is now, thanks to ** spoiler omitted **
To be fair, I may have misremembered some of the details on that first point - it may have been a
Either way, still pretty gross.
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I apologize for the tone of my posts previously. In the spirit of moving the thread back on track, here's my thoughts on book 2 and 3.Book 2:
I agree that as written, The Big X is a big TPK, unless the party does their homework and thinks outside the box and is ready to drop some coin on potions and scrolls. Unless the DM is ready to pick up the pieces after a party wipe, then she should either be toned down or swapped for Lucretia. Otherwise, I think book 2 is fine. With one notable exception: by-the-book ghasts are weaker than 3.5 ghasts. The advanced template doesn't make ghasts as tough as they were in 3.5, so you probably have to advance them a HD or two to keep the same threat level.
I also suggest more Ironbriar foreshadowing. Having one of the city's 13 Justices be the leader of a murderous cult is only shocking if the party knew that in the first place. I ran a trial for all those captured in book 1 (Tsuto, Orik, Lyrie and Ripnugget) and had Ironbriar preside, all before book 2 started. I also did what others have suggested and made Ironbriar the real father of Tsuto. When Tsuto was sentenced to life in jail, some other schmuck was actually thrown in the Hells and Tsuto was indoctrinated into daddy's cult.
Agree with pretty much all of this. I also apologize for my part and am glad we are both back on the same page.
I also had a similar trial and it worked out great.
Rodney King was right, we can all get along! Go to Gen Con this year and I'll buy you a beer.
My group is just about to retake the Fort, but babies, heart attacks, major surgery and trips to europe has put our game on a bit of a hold LoL! Moreso than the 1 and 3 hour travel times for half the group. Hopefully I can have my cardstock outer walls of the fort finished by then, and maybe even have some ogres painted to boot!
The point being, this is as far as I've gotten in the AP, and I won't be able to speak from experience about the rest of it for a looong while, other than just plans and good intentions.
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Moving on to book 4, and this is where I am going to start to make a major suggestion for a global change in the plot...
The Giants Should attack Fort Rannick.
Your players spend half of the last book working on this fortress that is centrally located and they never get to defend it and really have a weak reason to return to Sandpoint to be attacked by Giants.
The giants trying to find a rock to tell them about a guy...weak sauce. Have whatever they need to find be hidden in Fort Rannick. Have that be the reason the Giants attacked Fort Rannick in the first place. Have it found at the beginning of the next book as a reason to return to Sandpoint or used the Library to guide them to Sandpoint...and I'll deal with the other issues of that plot when I get to book 5.
The attack itself is wonderful, it should just be at Fort Rannick. The flavor subplots can be resolved easily with this move and it is just wrong to not let the players use the fort they build to defend against such an epic encounter.
We can still find out about the Scribbler from something that leads us back to Sandpoint for the start of the next book (I'll deal with the the issues I have with that plot in the next book) but they built this Fort, let the players defend it once.
Moving on. Ogre Cattle Rustlers and Storval Stairs fights are fun.
I like how the valley is set up so you have to use strategy and can't just march right in. It also makes players plan well, as running away always means reinforcements will come, and likely you won't be able to camp anywhere nearby since you can be scryed once you show yourself. Plus lots of flying enemies to add some challenges. Well done.
Like the black tower, although it is very easy to miss it entirely in the initial taking of the place.
The courtyard was well set up, my players ended up taking the courtyard and locking the other giants out while they cleared the dungeon (I basically kept the whole thing on a timer, with the assumption that the giants outside would eventually realize something was up and break into the compound.
Doing it all in one go it a slog, but it is supposed to be at this level, and particularly given that the players have tons of prep time before going in to get healing potion/wands etc...the casters were on fumes by the time we got to Mokmaurian, but that isn't a bad thing.
The cavern entrances worked well I think.
I liked the Conna subplot as a resolution as to why the army breaks up after you finish Mokmaurian. I felt like the whole dungeon was hard, but not impossible, and that it included surprises that kept players on their toes without them feeling forced. I give extra thumbs up to the Kobald Barbarian. We all loved the Kobald.
I don't really have any criticism of it.
I agree that Fort Rannick should have more of a starring role. It's the PCs base, in all likelihood, at this point, and yet that means they have to keep traveling back to Sandpoint every book for some random event. I like your idea, Ciretose, to have the giants attack Rannick.
Old Drake was correct about some of the "you fight 4 more regular stone giants" encounters throughout this book becoming tedious. I get that it's a whole army, but by the end of the chapter the fights with regular stone giants were met with groans and rolled eyes by the group.
The Kobold was also a favorite of the party. Just a truly cool encounter.
Our group skipped EVERYTHING aboveground by just scouting the area with a couple fliers and finding the caves that lead beneath the fort. Especially considering that this is how we also breached Fort Rannick, I felt it was a little too obvious and allowed us to skip too many cool things. (Though I'm thankful for a few less "it's 4 stone giants" fights)
Also, the spell "Create Treasure Map" from the APG when used on Longtooth if he is killed in the raid on Sandpoint lent an interesting development to our finding and scouting of Jorgenfist.
The library level with the rounded rooms was awesome. I enjoyed every encounter there, and the clockwork librarian was a really cool scene for our group. Mokmurian needs to be updated for Pathfinder, which may entail some fairly interesting changes. I really liked his "solidfog-reverse gravity-tool on PCs" attack routine, though. He needs to be totally played differently, however, if the group has fliers...just a warning to DMs to look out for that.
I second the above comments that something needs to happen with Jorgenfist after this chapter. In our group, Conna the Wise promised to have the stone giants atone for their violence by building up a trade enclave in Jorgenfist and establishing ties with human communities through Fort Rannick, if the PCs were willing to advocate for them. They'll also act as scouts and a kind of "border patrol" to keep other giants and raiders from descending on the communities of Varisia.
Including some kingmaker level hex stuff would be a really nice touch.
That would allow for Ft. Rannick to be attacked without a huge slog (which is how I did it ... huge slog).
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Moving on to book 5, and here will be the first time I will actively ask for a major change.
I like the Scribbler fine. I love the Runeforge.
I don't buy the hook.
This is particularly annoying since it seems like it should be an easy fix to have a hook that wasn't so tenuous as a double agent who lived for tens of thousands of years, went crazy, and wrote poems about how to find the Runeforge.
The scribbler could have been imprisoned by either Karzoug or Alaznist and still have all the same information. It could be why he was imprisoned, in fact. He could be someone who Karzoug and Alaznist were fighting over because he has some unique ability/spell to get into runeforge, possibly a knowledge of a rune key that opens the door into runeforge that he learned from Lissala...considering currently no Thaumaturge exists, you are going to need to modify this regardless.
Having the scribbler become an Oracle could work, although you would need to figure out what to do about the Quasit, but that should be doable.
And that would make so much more sense and be so much easier to explain/fit into the plot, than what we have. The weird double agent who got trapped underground worshiping Lamatashu...simplify this whole thing.
You can have the PCs find a book that describes the catacombs of wrath and the scribbler, and have it be that both Karzoug and Alaznist were seeking this person in this place in order to learn the secret of entering the runeforge so they could overcome the others defenses...
Which is the kind of thing the PC's would need to learn to Locate Xin-Shalast and defeat Karzoug.
Which brings me to the second issue I have with this book. The goal is really, really fuzzy. The runeforged weapons are fairly optional, leaving the players to wonder why they are here and what they are doing.
The runeforge is full of possiblities, but it isn't clear why the players are there. And it wouldn't be hard to make it clear or to give the players some clear indication that they will need the weapons (or something) to get Karzoug.
In my game I made it so they discovered the plans they had formulated to save Karzoug in the runewell. The plans were to put himself in a modified stasis spell that from him "out of time" in a demiplane between here and Leng (the leng part was unclear to players, it was described as between two planes)
Karzoug planned to be awakened once the crisis was averted, and the spell would recalibrate him with time at a pace of 10,000 to 1. This would be fine if 10,000 years hadn't passed, meaning it is taking 10 years to recalibrate back to current time...which is why he can't get out.
And they got a tuning fork that combined with the eye of averice would allow them to access Karzoug before he could escape.
That is my suggested fix, I definitely think it needs a fix. The rest of the AP is gold, this is a fixable speed bump.
But enough criticism of the narrative, on to the encounters.
The scribbler is fun, with all the fog and such. The dragon is fine, taking the runeforge a piece at a time.
I wish sloth was hashed out more, but I understand room in books. Same with Abjuration. Necromancy was very well done, Greed was fun but too short. Loved the succubus, and while the clone subplot was odd, it was also fun (as were the traps). Wrath seemed like an afterthought, and honestly could be made a more optional area to streamline the plot.
I was left wanting more of the runeforge, which is a sign of a well made area. I would almost want a full companion book on the runeforge, with this AP only focusing on the needed areas to advance the plot and doing them justice rather than half-done other areas. It felt like the Necromancy area was done well, and the deadlines forced the rest to be rushed.
The Karzoug statue was bit much for me, but to each his own.
Of the 6 books, this was the weakest in my opinion, but it also is a book with a lot of potential for a re-write, as the locations and concepts are very strong. It just wasn't executed as well as the other books.
The whole concept of the Runeforge kind of fails in the Pathfinder world. The groups needed to work together as they all had 2 PROHIBITED schools....but specialist wizards no longer have prohibitions, just oppositions. This drove me crazy in my efforts to convert all the wizards up to Pathfinder standards.
I think the concept is awesome, and I love the Runeforge as a dungeon. However, it reallllly needs to be converted to Pathfinder moreso than any of the other dungeons in this AP. Also, at this point in Pathfinder the players have access to a whole bunch of spells (UM, APG etc) that aren't taken into account in the AP. I know it's common to stay mostly core when writing these things, but these are powerful wizards with thousands of years to work with. I really feel like they need their spell lists done up better OR for a larger section of completely new (and useful) spells that have never made it out into Golarion to be included (especially focused around the flavor of Sins).
If the group is a kind of "take no prisoners" style group it is really difficult to shoehorn in the idea of runeforged weapons. This whole chapter had kind of a "lead-them-by-the-nose" feel to it, even more than some of the previous ones. The hook, background, story, and objective all need to be more natural, obvious, and to flow better.
I intend to use these ancient libraries and mages to introduce a lot of the spells from the APG/UM etc, rather than have the PCs surprising the ancient masters of rune magic with them.
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The whole concept of the Runeforge kind of fails in the Pathfinder world. The groups needed to work together as they all had 2 PROHIBITED schools....but specialist wizards no longer have prohibitions, just oppositions. This drove me crazy in my efforts to convert all the wizards up to Pathfinder standards.
I think the concept is awesome, and I love the Runeforge as a dungeon. However, it reallllly needs to be converted to Pathfinder moreso than any of the other dungeons in this AP. Also, at this point in Pathfinder the players have access to a whole bunch of spells (UM, APG etc) that aren't taken into account in the AP. I know it's common to stay mostly core when writing these things, but these are powerful wizards with thousands of years to work with. I really feel like they need their spell lists done up better OR for a larger section of completely new (and useful) spells that have never made it out into Golarion to be included (especially focused around the flavor of Sins).
If the group is a kind of "take no prisoners" style group it is really difficult to shoehorn in the idea of runeforged weapons. This whole chapter had kind of a "lead-them-by-the-nose" feel to it, even more than some of the previous ones. The hook, background, story, and objective all need to be more natural, obvious, and to flow better.
That is a good point. I really like the Runeforge as concept and as a dungeon, and I like the encounters in this book, but the logic of the book and it's place in the AP need work.
The Giants Should attack Fort Rannick.
While I haven't reached that far in my planning process, at present I plan to remove Fort Rannick as a base entirely. So instead of giving the players a base and then not having anyone attack it, I am likely to not give them a base in the first place. I personally think more of the action needs to take place in Sandpoint, not less.
Consequently, I am aiming for the heroes' sojourn in Magnimar to be short--more like a 'get in, find the bad guys, get out' kind of experience. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to blast through everything post-Misgivings in less than 48 hours of in-game time after their arrival in Magnimar.
As for the trip to Fort Rannick, I have that covered thanks to one PC's background--he is an aasimar with a half-celestial great great grandfather who is a Black Arrow himself. I also plan to figure out a way to have Mokmurian spying on the PCs after they defeat Xanesha (or don't); that way I can characterise the attack on Fort Rannick as a deliberate diversion to get the PCs out of Sandpoint so the giants can attack it with less risk.
I wholeheartedly agree on the Scribbler thing though. I am hoping to remove every single journal, incriminating letter, convenient bit of graffiti et cetera from the entire AP. If the heroes get the information they need through interrogation then great. If they don't, then there will be consequences. I even have plans drawn up for the second goblin invasion of Sandpoint, if the heroes fail to get the information about it from Tsuto.
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In terms of changes to the AP itself, I would personally argue for the removal of Runeforge entirely. While it makes sense from a metagame perspective to fit these various game types into the first AP, it doesn't make a lot of narrative sense to me. I don't know what I would replace it with, but to me Runeforge sticks out amongst the other parts of the AP like a sore thumb.
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Last but not least, book 6.
I like the Dwarf quest with the Wendigo, it worked really well when my group ran it, although I added that the place was so close to where leng overlapped that it interfered with teleportation spells and such. I think there should be a more clear way to Xin-Shalast than starving, perhaps having an item like a sihedron rune in your possession or something, which would also explain the side quest to Runeforge.
You can still have the dwarf thing if they didn't realize until it was too late that having the medallion was the key.
Xin-Shalast I love as a setting. I like the skulks a lot, but I didn't care much for the Hidden Beast. That may just have been personal preference, but I would have liked to have seen something else in that slot.
The Ice Devil and the Dragon work great, and the Giant Subplot is interesting. I would have liked to have a rune giant encounter that lead to another ring being found outside the spire, but again, personal preference.
The spire was a lot of fun, and with updated to Pathfinder NPCs will work fine, the final battle with Karzoug would definately benefit from a pathfinder upgrade and better strategy from Karzoug.
All and all, better book that 5, and a solid book overall.
I was disappointed by the Runeforge, but it's partly my own fault.
I had built it up in my head as some insane, decadent, magitech "factory" where bizarre "production lines" of deadly sinning would create sinspawn, evil magic items, and stranger things. A giant setup that the PCs would have to learn to influence and operate, not just kill their way through (except maybe the Wrath parts). Instead, we got a fairly straightforward sin-themed dungeon crawl, and two of the seven wings had been destroyed long before the PCs got there.
The whole concept of the Runeforge kind of fails in the Pathfinder world. The groups needed to work together as they all had 2 PROHIBITED schools....but specialist wizards no longer have prohibitions, just oppositions. This drove me crazy in my efforts to convert all the wizards up to Pathfinder standards.
This could maybe work, actually. It sticks in my craw that magic never seems to advance, that wizards from a hundred or a thousand years ago are casting the same spells at the same levels and so forth...
What if Thassilonian wizards, who obviously had some differences with modern magic theory what with not treating divination as specialization-worthy, do still have prohibited schools? It's a big weakness of the Runelords waiting to be exploited.
The whole concept of the Runeforge kind of fails in the Pathfinder world. The groups needed to work together as they all had 2 PROHIBITED schools....but specialist wizards no longer have prohibitions, just oppositions. This drove me crazy in my efforts to convert all the wizards up to Pathfinder standards.This could maybe work, actually. It sticks in my craw that magic never seems to advance, that wizards from a hundred or a thousand years ago are casting the same spells at the same levels and so forth...
What if Thassilonian wizards, who obviously had some differences with modern magic theory what with not treating divination as specialization-worthy, do still have prohibited schools? It's a big weakness of the Runelords waiting to be exploited.
THIS.
On the one hand, Thassilonian magic was supposed to be near the pinnacle of human understanding of the art, almost fundamentally beyond the ken of those 'lesser', later practitioners who've struggled to rebuild magical lore - and civilisation itself - since the fall of the major empires like Thassilon and Azlant.
On the other hand, it would highlight the fact that for all its might and majesty, Thassilon wasn't without some humongous blind-spots of its own, and later generations 'overcoming' a 'fundamental limitation' of magic that they were never aware existed - outdoing the Runelords' mastery of magic through the sheer power of 'Achievement in Ignorance', if you'll permit the trope-ism - does have a great appeal. FWIW, I'd eagerly take this suggestion and fly with it. ;)
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The whole concept of the Runeforge kind of fails in the Pathfinder world. The groups needed to work together as they all had 2 PROHIBITED schools....but specialist wizards no longer have prohibitions, just oppositions. This drove me crazy in my efforts to convert all the wizards up to Pathfinder standards.This could maybe work, actually. It sticks in my craw that magic never seems to advance, that wizards from a hundred or a thousand years ago are casting the same spells at the same levels and so forth...
What if Thassilonian wizards, who obviously had some differences with modern magic theory what with not treating divination as specialization-worthy, do still have prohibited schools? It's a big weakness of the Runelords waiting to be exploited.
THIS.
On the one hand, Thassilonian magic was supposed to be near the pinnacle of human understanding of the art, almost fundamentally beyond the ken of those 'lesser', later practitioners who've struggled to rebuild magical lore - and civilisation itself - since the fall of the major empires like Thassilon and Azlant.
On the other hand, it would highlight the fact that for all its might and majesty, Thassilon wasn't without some humongous blind-spots of its own, and later generations 'overcoming' a 'fundamental limitation' of magic that they were never aware existed - outdoing the Runelords' mastery of magic through the sheer power of 'Achievement in Ignorance', if you'll permit the trope-ism - does have a great appeal. FWIW, I'd eagerly take this suggestion and fly with it. ;)
Agree 100%
If anything it is an opportunity for an archtype.
I am hoping to remove every single journal, incriminating letter, convenient bit of graffiti et cetera from the entire AP.
1000 times yes. I know it's a great tool for moving the plot along for writers who don't know what adventurers will be coming along to face it, but the number of villains who make notes of all their schemes is embarassing.
One idea I had for adjusting this is to replace Tsuto's journal in Burnt Offerings to be a sketch book. A lot of the illustrations in the book have a sketch feel to them anyways, and I can see using those in a handout to give the players. The PCs note that the sick-o Tsuto was drawing his glass-encased father, but on further flipping through the book spot, among other things, the drawing of Nualia and a picture of the fortress on Thistletop. These will hint at Nualia's transformation (by showing her demonic hand) and pinpoint the location of their hideout (to anybody who recognizes the rock outcropping as Thistletop).
Although I actually kinda like the Scribbler's scribblings. Those I have no problem keeping intact.
The change of location feels awkward. I mean, I like it in principal; the plot threats from the first two modules are finished and while the players may have a few leads, they'll likely end without clear direction.
My plan for this was to introduce an awards ceremony at the end of Skinsaw Murders where Mayor Whatsisname presents the PCs with tokens of knighthood and public declarations of heroism. Although normally just symbolic, the mayor concludes the very public ceremony with a declaration that these heroes will be taking command of Ft. Rannick and be in charge of Magnimar's more distant holding ("on the leading edge of the city's expansion"). Clearly a political move to get the heroes away from any more power in the city, but the PCs have a choice between accepting or publicly declaring themselves not as brave as everyone thought them to be and rejecting the token of knighthood.
That's my plan, anyways.
The scribbler could have been imprisoned by either Karzoug or Alaznist and still have all the same information. It could be why he was imprisoned, in fact.
I hadn't thought much on it, but maybe it could be that he was from Runeforge? Not sure I'm remembering it right, but the Runelords couldn't enter Runeforge and maybe the people in it couldn't leave? If one of the wizards from inside escaped, he might be a deilicious target for any of the Runelords to find out what's going on in there.
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I GMed the whole AP when it came out. (#1 observation: NEVER run an AP until you have all six in hand. This caused me a lot of trouble.) Here are my comments. Caveat: We had a large, caster-heavy party and a player who was VERY intent on having things making sense and using information extensively. He always knows what is going on many, many modules before the authors expect. I like this, personally, but it makes things run differently.
Burnt Offerings:
This ran well for us, except that my player intensely disliked the fight with the quasit. He felt that the message it sent was "You can't do this. Go away" and that that was derailing.
I really like Sandpoint. I would like to see more towns done this way. I would also recommend changing later parts of the AP to make more use of Sandpoint (more on this later).
Skinsaw Murders:
I loved the first half when I read it, but it fell flat when run because the haunts provide all this information about the past horrific events and then...the PCs can do nothing useful with that information. They just have to kill Aldern. I eventually improvised a way for them to actually break the curse using what they had learned about it. (And, to my shock, the PCs saved Aldern--I ran him as a sort of half-ghoul--and he was with the party for the rest of the AP! One of the best party NPCs ever, but obviously that was really specific to my group.)
I would like to see the conclusion of part 1 offering ways to use all that information and lay the lich's spirit.
In part 2, I agree with people who said that Magnimar is sketchy--on the other hand, we're about to leave and never return, so this may not be the best place for more detailing.
Xanesha was way overpowered for us. My husband ran RotRL for a different group and swapped Xanesha with Lucrezia, which is better but still very hard. My player did beat Xanesha by ambushing her on the ground with a lot of recruited NPC help, but rather than seeming pleased with the victory he was demoralized and nearly quit the game--he felt that it showed his PCs were flatly not up to the challenges. (And it's not an unreasonable response: he had 7 characters who were all 1 level higher than expected and barely won with over half the party down and two dead. The logical conclusion *is* "We aren't up to this" especially since we didn't plan to keep all those NPC allies.)
This kind of encounter kills campaigns. I don't think they should be put in without a VERY clear "campaign killer" warning flag and some advice on what to run instead if you need to avoid that.
I have learned through bitter experience that the CR system cannot be trusted when monsters are given class levels--AC and SR sometimes go up way too high, or the creature is able to cover all its weaknesses. Xanesha fits that pattern exactly.
Hook Mountain Massacre:
We had logic problems with this one. The PCs are in Magnimar when news arrives that Fort Rannick has dropped out of contact--10 to 20 days from Fort Rannick--but when they arrive it looks as though the attack happened yesterday.
This could be solved, and the cohesion of the campaign increased, by putting Fort Rannick much closer to Sandpoint. You would lose the scenic location at the dam, but it would be a lot easier to motivate the PCs. If any of the extra material about _Paradise_ survives, you could also up the emotional stakes a lot by having _Paradise_ dock at Sand Point rather than Turtleback Ferry.
Having the PCs own the fort does not fit with the arc of the rest of the campaign, which pushes the PCs into travelling constantly. It is a nice idea but doesn't belong here.
The river-flood is a beautiful image but doesn't make sense. Maybe it should be optional, for groups that prioritize color over logic. (Nothing wrong with that, it's just not the group I have.)
Fortress of the Stone Giants:
This needs a real, living Giant fortress, not a regular dungeon. I did a lot of work fleshing it out, with the PCs allying with Mother Cora to turn the Giant tribes against Mokmurian. Even so, the lower level was very unsatisfying: too disconnected and random. Stone Giants have an interesting culture (the associated article is golden) but it isn't used at all.
Sins of the Saviors:
We put Runeforge under Sandpoint. I totally recommend this: it improves coherence, and I had some Sandpoint notables who tried to explore Runeforge on their own and got trapped there, to up the stakes a bit.
I agree with other posters that the PC response to Runeforge is likely to be "Why are we doing this?" I also wanted, if there are going to be living inhabitants, to see exploitable politics--ways to turn the factions against each other.
Also, please, if there are going to be traps give them trap writeups with necessary mechanical information. "It just moves you back, don't know if it's teleport or space-bending, no idea how it interacts with spells" might have flown in 1st edition but not in Pathfinder.
Spires of Xin-Shalast:
I can't say much about this as I am a weak GM for high-level play. I would cut the huge mechanics writeup on the decapus, though, and use it to flesh out the Giants more. And having Karzoug all alone does not work: if the PCs are going to win at all they probably win in round 1.
Logic problems here again: Karzoug very likely knows where the PCs are all the time, but makes no use of his forces to try to stop them. My player really disliked this. The PCs are very high level now and it's not satisfying for them to be treated as irrelevant (also it feels like a cop-out).
Overall:
This is an opinion and others will certainly disagree, but I think we have learned a lot since 1st edition. Nostalgia is fun, and I enjoyed RotRL a lot; but we should try not to repeat things that were *bad* in old-style games, like enemies who sit stupefied in one room all the time and have no activities or agenda. It would be more work to have a real Giant fortress with Giantish life going on in it, but a lot more interesting!
Random question about Runeforge--has anyone out there tried redeveloping Runeforge into something more like Rapture from the Bioshock games? What Old Drake was talking about got me wondering whether it might be possible to turn Runeforge into a largely abandoned complex full of crazies who are at war with each other and themselves, fighting over some dwindling resource.
The PCs could choose sides, or play hardball, or sneak around...
Hmm.
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My random suggestions.
Make Xanesha an appropriate challenge, not a TPK waiting to happen.
Keep the party in Sandpoint more.
Forget about running Fort Rannick.
Make the runeforged weapons awesome, it is a let down to reach the aweseome-weapon-making-machine and then get not much of anything.
Make FotSG more political.
What if Thassilonian wizards, who obviously had some differences with modern magic theory what with not treating divination as specialization-worthy, do still have prohibited schools? It's a big weakness of the Runelords waiting to be exploited.
HA! I totally called it :)
+1
A hardback for the whole AP, converted to Pathfinder, with bonus material and behind the scene sidebars would be awesome! Like a proper commemorative collectors special addition. Then they should do gold plated ones signed by the paizo staff and auction them off for charity. That would be fantastic. I would not only buy a copy but bid on the special edition.
and beyond. Although I am Italian, equal i will order from the site a copy for each member of my group, since all we buy
only the English manual (the Italian ones, are really too expensive. With the price of an italian book, I bought almost 3 English Manual.)|
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What if Thassilonian wizards, who obviously had some differences with modern magic theory what with not treating divination as specialization-worthy, do still have prohibited schools? It's a big weakness of the Runelords waiting to be exploited.HA! I totally called it :)
Seems a good time to kickstart this thread again.
The river-flood is a beautiful image but doesn't make sense. Maybe it should be optional, for groups that prioritize color over logic. (Nothing wrong with that, it's just not the group I have.)Could you explain why you believe it doesn't make sense?
The dam itself made no sense. How can Skull River exist if Skull's Crossing Dam has no open outlet for water to flow from The Storval Deep to the Skull River? Perhaps there is a hidden outlet below the level of the river (like real hydroelectric dams), but the source material does not mention anything like that nor provide an access tunnel to it.
But I suspect what Mary Yamato means is that if a crack starts in the dam and water pours through, the water is not going to stop flowing as the module says. It will cut the dam in two. Water under pressure is more powerful than ogres with pickaxes and the Black Magga combined. The deeper the water at the base of the crack, the greater its power. Check the history of real dam breaks. See some videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIeNM8cm6J8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEdM6Ys6spA
Furthermore, releasing enough water to drop the level of the Storval Deep by as little as ten feet would wipe Turtleback Ferry off the map. Storval Deep is a gigantic lake.
Therefore, I altered the dam. A thousand years ago, in forgotten history before Cheliax invaded Varisia, stone giants ruled the dam and they were at war with a city in the current location of Turtleback Ferry. So they cut a giant notch in the dam, ten feet wide and fifteen feet deep, and flooded and destroyed the city. Unfortunately, this also flooded the Shimmerglens and parts of Sanos Forest, making the stone giants new enemies who allied with the survivors of the lost city and drove the stone giants out of the area.
The historic stone giants had to kill one pit fiend to depower the dam's self-repair magic. This left the dam without the power to automatically open its skull-shaped floodgates whenever the water got too high. Every since, the notch has been the outlet for the dam, forming a beautiful waterfall. The magically hard stone resists erosion, so the notch had not grown.
Barl Breakbones knew of the historic flood from the stone giant lore, and decided to re-enact it. He did not have adamantine pickaxes to cut the notch deeper, so instead he had the ogres build a sluice gate across the notch and hired the annis hags to create rain to raise the water level. Once the water grew high enough, he would open the sluice gate and release all the water at once.
The ogres had fought the Skulltaker trolls while building and guarding the gate. They had thrown the dead trolls into Storval Deep. That attracted the Black Magga, who began eating trolls and ogres right off the dam. Grazuul sought the advice of the pit fiend inside the dam. The pit fiend suggested that Grazuul throw some animals into the magic circles of the infernal engine to open the main skull floodgate and suck the Black Magga down to the Skull River. Grazuul did so. Powered only by the lifeforce of animals, the skullgate did not remain open long, but it released enough water to send a flood toward Turtleback Ferry.
I timed this to happen as the player characters were traveling up the river to investigate why its water level was so low. They saw the skullgate open. The druid transformed into a bird and flew to the town to warn them to evacuate the floodplain part of town, so the only hazard was when the Black Magga washed into town. Being washed through the skullgate had damaged it heavily, so the party had the fun of being able to kill it
I had intended for the party to prevent the sluice-gate flood by opening the main skullgate one tenth open to slowly and safely lower the water in Storval Deep. However, I had mentioned that the ogres had braced the sluice gate against a low pile of dirt and gravel. After the party defeated the ogres, the druid cast Mud to Rock to create a solid barrier the height of the water in the lake. Then they destroyed the sluice gate.
Fort Rannick is upriver of Turtleback Ferry. The PCs are supposedly at Fort Rannick (they might also be at the dam itself) when they see the flood go by. They are then supposed to chase the flood downriver and try to save the town.
My player just shrugged and said "The road is gone." It would be, wouldn't it? If enough water came down to flood the town that deep it would surely scour everything off the banks all the way down.
Even if there's a way downriver, unless the PCs are very fast--floods move 10 mph on relatively level ground, more on steep ground. They can't realistically warn the town. Chasing the flood doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
That's not to say it's a bad scene for all groups, but it didn't work for us.
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Fort Rannick is upriver of Turtleback Ferry. The PCs are supposedly at Fort Rannick (they might also be at the dam itself) when they see the flood go by. They are then supposed to chase the flood downriver and try to save the town.
My player just shrugged and said "The road is gone." It would be, wouldn't it? If enough water came down to flood the town that deep it would surely scour everything off the banks all the way down.
Even if there's a way downriver, unless the PCs are very fast--floods move 10 mph on relatively level ground, more on steep ground. They can't realistically warn the town. Chasing the flood doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
That's not to say it's a bad scene for all groups, but it didn't work for us.
I like the concept of the infernal engines, but I don't see it fitting where it is at. I would actually love to see the concept moved into the conjuration section of the rune forge, rather than what they ended up doing with that area.
Fort Rannick is upriver of Turtleback Ferry. The PCs are supposedly at Fort Rannick (they might also be at the dam itself) when they see the flood go by. They are then supposed to chase the flood downriver and try to save the town.
My player just shrugged and said "The road is gone." It would be, wouldn't it? If enough water came down to flood the town that deep it would surely scour everything off the banks all the way down.
Even if there's a way downriver, unless the PCs are very fast--floods move 10 mph on relatively level ground, more on steep ground. They can't realistically warn the town. Chasing the flood doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
That's not to say it's a bad scene for all groups, but it didn't work for us.
The scenarios in the module are about rescuing people trapped in the flood, so the module does not assume that the players can outrace it.
As for the road downriver, the module says, "Unless the PCs can all fly, they must hurry if they wish to use the road to reach Turtleback Ferry, for it would seem that the floodwaters of the rising Skull River will swamp it within hours. In fact, the flooding won’t reach the point where the roads are washed away quite yet (the damage Black Magga did to the dam wasn’t quite that extensive), but it should spur the PCs on nonetheless."
That sounded more like a flood from heavy rains than a flood from a dam breach, so I did not enact it that way myself. I explained that the road to Fort Rannick was well above the river, and the bridge over Skull River was a stone arch spanning a gorge.
I also made the flood fairly shallow, no worse than a fifty-year river flood. I declared that half the town: the wharfs, the taverns, the low-rent housing, and the public school--were in the floodplain of the river and the rest of town was on higher ground that remained safe.
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Bumping since this thread is particularly relevant given the confirmed 5 year anniversary book and the fact that changes will be made.
Basically post suggested changes to specific books. People have posted specific suggestions for specific books throughout the thread, but if you don't feel like going backward, just charge forward with your suggestions.
Bumping since this thread is particularly relevant given the confirmed 5 year anniversary book and the fact that changes will be made.
Basically post suggested changes to specific books. People have posted specific suggestions for specific books throughout the thread, but if you don't feel like going backward, just charge forward with your suggestions.
First thing we can look at changing is that release date...
First thing we can look at changing is that release date...
Heck no. Give 'em time to work.
My wish list:
* Runeforge. Bigger, more elaborate, stranger, and with all seven areas intact.
* Fully restored ogrekin squick. :)
* Have Karzoug be surprisable by some aspects of modern magic. Maybe we're not back up to Azlanti or Thassilonian standards yet, but we made the climb ourselves, not with the "help" of those darn aboleths!
* In general, better transitions and links between the chapters.
Yes, you may have a point there. I'm just desperate for some more magnimar content (which James has promised in the announcement thread, but I don't think I can get away with postponing the campaign for a year. :P)
What I'd like to see are some campaign traits with some tangible ties to the story. Something like CotCT or LoF have with ties to an NPC. I forced something similar on my players but in retrospect it was a little hamhanded. I'd love to see what the paizo boys would do with it.
This book is going to be my first hardcover, so I'm really quite excited for the art. It's apparently got quite the budget, or so I hear...
As for the AP itself?
*a better writeup for Erylium, possibly as a new class (Master Summoner?) and having her run away when her monsters are slain. While trying to grapple her seems to make for a memorable encounter, it's also quite a painful one.
*Some more variety with the haunts in Foxglove Manor. My PCs encountered every one of them. They do wonders with the atmosphere, but with a relatively small group (3) I couldn't divide it up easily, and it seemed to be just a repeditive slog of will saves and perception checks. They're fantastic, but it needs to be trimmed down.
*Sweet, sweet Magnimar content...
*Filling in of "holes" in the AP, such as the lack of encounters at the fort once it's been recaptured
*Perhaps an NPC gallery like in Jade Reagent?
*As I believe was suggested in this thread, making the FotSG fortress more alive.
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Have I missed anything?
Edit: Yes. The ogrekin squick. It's a little overrated (though a coup de grace to the groin with a post holer... yikes...) but I did rather enjoy the final Kreeg encounter. James has said they have no plans to change the maturity level of the content, so this might be out.
So I wanted to have a thread to discuss what is good and should be left alone and what would be fine to...um...rethink.
So taking it a book at a time, I'll start with Burnt Offerings.
Well, I'd start earlier. For example, at Sandpoint. Spelling out some of the history revealed outside RotRL is important. (Fates of the Runelords, etc.) Also, stuff from other APs (I understand the seven virtues are detailed in the most recent AP, Serpent Something, for example) that pertains to RotRL should at least have an appendix/index or similar, if not be included directly.
NPCs at Sandpoint should get retconned to new base classes and archetypes. For example, Vorsail Voon, alchemist (I may be getting the name wrong), should NOT get the alchemist class - because he isn't that good of an alchemist. I'd like to see several build options, so if I don't have APG/UM/UC, I have a build that both uses and does not use that material. [hint: doing up the NPCs this way would also be a goodness. Maybe a "mainline" build in the encounter text, and alternate builds in a separate chapter?]
There should be a section for why each NPC isn't going to join the adventure, and perhaps rules for recruiting NPCs. For example, Shalelu is willing to help destroy Thistletop - as long as she isn't the crutch that causes Sandpoint's heroes not to do their own work. I'd think a system of increasing DCs ("But the OTHER deputy is already going - we can't have both the sergeant of the night watch AND day watch away from their posts!") would work well. But by the rules, if Sandpoint just ceases to function for a few days, the NPCs could go ahead and resolve the entire Burnt Offerings path without the PCs at all (And NO, they WON'T do this silly thing, for obvious reasons - the threat isn't THAT serious, and by the time it is, it's beyond their ability to join except as cohorts.).
I'd like to see the fully expounded Sin Magic worked into the AP (or more accurately, stubs to do so). Also, options for "rules stubs" to be inserted along the AP. For example, Kingmaker's mass combat rules as pertains to Fort Rannik, Kingmaker stats for Sandpoint and that small town near the fort, relationship options for Sandpoint NPCS, etc.
I'd like to see sidebars for "What if" that are likely to occur. For example, Erylium cannot leave the Catacombs of Wrath, but PCs often defeat her through CMD/wrestling. What if someone slaps small (goblin) manacles on her and the PCs attempt to carry her outside her "allowed zone"?
Also, points of interest for those plot points likely to be of PC interest by class/archetype, race/culture, and by faith. For example, I don't think we need to stress Zon-Kuthon as much as CotCT does, but the "handles" for faiths just aren't in the original source material.
I'd like to see sections where all the magic items and NPCs are listed by type in alphabetical order, with page references to their stat blocks (or just done in their own chapter, as per Jade Regent).
In general, there's a lot of stuff that just wasn't in the original source because either it didn't exist back then, or there wasn't room for it. There still won't be infinite room in the hardcover, but there should at least be pointers to where that stuff is located. [hint: Paizo, this will GREATLY help your sales, at least of PDF, since some of that stuff is out of print.]
Oh, and an appendix for theme music for the encounters would be appreciated.
Also - I think this thread needs to be broken down into seven parts: Background/General, and one for each adventure in the AP.
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Oh, also - campaign traits, background feats, etc. The Player Document "enriching" stuff that later AP added is a MUST for including in the hardcover. [The PDF by chapter should have the ROTRL Player Guide as its own chapter (yes, I know you already caught that one).]
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Burnt Offering - Erylium is tough. If as the DM you play her tough, she can cause a low level party fits. But you are the DM, and must be in control of the game. Make her tough at first, then let her get cocky and make a mistake. She is a great encounter that forces new players to think outside the box. Don't let the encounter drag on and on, give your party a chance to defeat her, but not before giving them a ride. Erylium has some of the best opportunities I have seen in a low level encounter for a DM to really make for a memorable encounter. I would not change a thing with Erylium.
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First thing we can look at changing is that release date...Heck no. Give 'em time to work.
My wish list:
* Runeforge. Bigger, more elaborate, stranger, and with all seven areas intact.
* Fully restored ogrekin squick. :)
* Have Karzoug be surprisable by some aspects of modern magic. Maybe we're not back up to Azlanti or Thassilonian standards yet, but we made the climb ourselves, not with the "help" of those darn aboleths!
* In general, better transitions and links between the chapters.
I agree with the runeforge. Simplify the subplot getting them to it and fill what you cut with more runeforge remaining if not fully intact with people, fully intact as a space.
The waste of opportunity brought by having an entire wing devoted to conjurationist study...
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I've just played a test game against Xanesha again; the players didn't know what they were up against, just that a BBEG was in the tower.
The first thing they did was turn around, go to the market and buy potions of invisibility, see invisibility, and spider climb; they had bull's strength and the Paladin had eagle's splendor and a scroll of bless. They climbed up, and charged Xanesha from different sides. The fighter hit on a 3, the Paladin on a 6, since Xanesha only has mage armor up unless she expects company. Damage was north of 50 points. Xanesha managed to win initiative the next round, but since she didn't expect trouble I decided she'd not take the best possible action - instead she full attacked the Paladin; 6,1,9 meant all attacks missed. The critical fumble would have left her exhausted (she needed a 19 on her fort save but rolled a 18), but that didn't really matter.
Next was the fighter who hit again with a 9 and the Paladin crited, leaving her at a single hitpoint at the end of the first full combat round - against two characters at level 6. Characters that had no idea what they were facing or what abilities she may have.As such I can just repeat my previous sentiment that Xanesha is an appropriate challenge and if handled correctly she is not a threat to the party - which is pretty typical of spellcasters; and since she is correctly shown as APL+4, every DM knows that she has the potential for TPK if the players handle her incorrectly and can foreshadow in any fashion they think their party requires; however since most parties can surprise her quite easily that usually isn't necessary.
What you described is a hella metagaming combined with nerf DMing. She didn't hear them climbing a rickety tower? She took a suboptimal attack because she didn't feel threatened by a group of invisible attackers?
Yes if you do that, it works out fine.