We've been playing through a Pathfinder campaign for some time in the Forgotten Realms setting. Our group consists of a glass cannon Alchemist, a half-orc barbarian, a cleric NPC, myself (conjuror), and my cohort (an urban ranger).
My stats are as follows:
Str 6
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 20 (22)
Wis 14
Cha 12
My opposition schools are divination and enchantment, and my arcane bond is a cat familiar.
I've taken the traits Ease of Faith and Fast Talker to give a boost to Diplomacy and Bluff skills, but our party is still lacking in the fop of the group, as it were. Because I'm the only one with high ranks in Diplomacy, I've more or less taken on that role for us, but I could be better at it.
I'm about to hit 10th level, and wanted to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of dipping a level or two into Rogue for the skills. The problem is, I don't care about sneak attacks; if the barbarian does her job right, I'm never close enough to deal them. To be honest, I don't care about trapfinding, either. My urban ranger takes care of traps just fine.
There are no builds of rogue that forgo the sneak attacks for some other ability, but trapfinding replacements are in abundance.
Near as I can tell, there are a couple drawbacks to this: For one, I won't reach my capstone ability in Conjuror, and I'll forgo a wizard feat at 20th level. Also, I would be giving up spellcasting prowess (both caster level and spells) at a time when our party might need it in combat.
Benefits, however, are in abundance: several skills I've pumped ranks into suddenly become class skills, including Sense Motive, Perception, and Stealth, and I gain an additional 5 skill points over what a wizard would gain instead (accounting for the favored class thingy).
tl;dr What would you do if your group had no fop, and you were the only one willing to make a power sacrifice to pick up that role?
As far as whether or not to worry about achieving your capstone ability as a conjurer, how likely is the campaign to last to 20th level and how long are you likely to play at that level? If you think they will ultimately not be factors in play, then don't consider them as arguments against multiclassing.
Just buy a royal outfit or even a hat of disguise if you want to be a fop.
Absolutely no reason to go and shoot yourself in the foot by loosing levels in wizard and permanently delaying your spell progression.
There is an additional trait called "Magical Knack" that keeps my caster level at the top notch.
Another benefit to dipping into rogue would be evasion, if I took two levels. The bane of every wizard's existence is a Reflex save, and the high bonus with this ability almost negates any danger with that.
Just buy a royal outfit or even a hat of disguise if you want to be a fop.
Absolutely no reason to go and shoot yourself in the foot by loosing levels in wizard and permanently delaying your spell progression.
There is an additional trait called "Magical Knack" that keeps my caster level at the top notch.
Another benefit to dipping into rogue would be evasion, if I took two levels. The bane of every wizard's existence is a Reflex save, and the high bonus with this ability almost negates any danger with that.
Magical Knack only helps with variables dependant on caster level, but does nothing for spell progression. FYI
As far as whether or not to worry about achieving your capstone ability as a conjurer, how likely is the campaign to last to 20th level and how long are you likely to play at that level? If you think they will ultimately not be factors in play, then don't consider them as arguments against multiclassing.
We may go into epic levels, if Paizo has published rules for it at that time. The campaign is expected to end around the mid-20s or so, so I may get the capstone ability yet.
Magical Knack only helps with variables dependant on caster level, but does nothing for spell progression. FYI
I'm well aware of that. Magical knack helps me keep up with beating SR and effects only. At the same time, I haven't run into a situation where I end up using all of my spells in a single day anyways. I'm dubious on how much 2 lost levels would really set me back.
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I'm well aware of that. Magical knack helps me keep up with beating SR and effects only. At the same time, I haven't run into a situation where I end up using all of my spells in a single day anyways. I'm dubious on how much 2 lost levels would really set me back.
Magical Knack only helps with variables dependant on caster level, but does nothing for spell progression. FYI
Just checking. You'd be suprised how many people Ive seen that thinks that trait adds to spell progression and everyhting else.
If you're just looking to boost your skills, I'd highly suggest using feats to do that, not class levels. Addition Traits should net you two skills as class skills if you select wisely, with an additional +1, for a net of +4 on those two skills. There's always Skill focus and the various +2/+2 feats, as well.Use all those spells you never use for things that boost your skills, Owl's Wisdom, Eagle's Splendor, etc. Buy various masterwork tools for each of your skills to give them an extra +2.
Heck, you're a conjurer. In a few levels you could just summon someone to do your talking for you, or invest in a cohort. Lots of ideas are better than taking a level in rogue
Don't wanna sound like I'm discounting everything people say, because I appreciate the input on this. I just want to thoroughly explore the good, bad, and ugly.
As such, I'll add a new piece of information to this equation: I've died 3 times in the past 3 sessions. Two of them were due to failed reflex saves. Given the cost of greater restoration and raise dead, that's cost the party 10,000 gp a pop.
At higher levels mages are SICK. Don't trade that for a +3 to a couple skills.
Sense motive, perception, and stealth.... are not as good as
Detect thoughts, clairvoyance/arcane eye, invisibility/ dimension door.
(All are spells you have access to) there are ways for mages to circumvent many problems given the proper spells.
If you're just looking to boost your skills, I'd highly suggest using feats to do that, not class levels. Addition Traits should net you two skills as class skills if you select wisely, with an additional +1, for a net of +4 on those two skills. There's always Skill focus and the various +2/+2 feats, as well.Use all those spells you never use for things that boost your skills, Owl's Wisdom, Eagle's Splendor, etc. Buy various masterwork tools for each of your skills to give them an extra +2.
Heck, you're a conjurer. In a few levels you could just summon someone to do your talking for you, or invest in a cohort. Lots of ideas are better than taking a level in rogue
Don't wanna sound like I'm discounting everything people say, because I appreciate the input on this. I just want to thoroughly explore the good, bad, and ugly.
As such, I'll add a new piece of information to this equation: I've died 3 times in the past 3 sessions. Two of them were due to failed reflex saves. Given the cost of greater restoration and raise dead, that's cost the party 10,000 gp a pop.
I am playing a wizard you took 1 level in rogue and I DO NOT REGRET IT!
The skills are lovely and really help the wizard to know things not just use magic. I evev used the sneak attack once which really suprised the brigand who felt he didn't need to worry about the silly guy in robes flanking him. Admittedly that was a lucky roll, but fun. I say go for it. You moght want to consider only one level though unless you really want evasion which is a very nice benefit. Mind you if you go two levels you also get a rogue talent many of which work well with wizards. If youi do go 2 levels though try to talk any other primary casters in the party to dip into something as well. That way the relative power levels within the party stay stable. If fact it would be funny if you all took a level in something else. A kind of vacation.Short version. Taking levels in anything other than your base class is non optimal, but it is also a great deal of fun.
Good luck
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Alright well I've got a few suggestions to make. A level or two of rogue isn't a horrible thing but as everyone else has mentioned you've got other options when it comes to grabbing some skill points. The feat Cosmopolitan is also good for grabbing class skills.
Living in large, exotic cities has put you in touch with many diverse civilizations, cultures, and races.
Benefit: You can speak and read two additional languages of your choice. In addition, choose two Intelligence-, Wisdom-, or Charisma-based skills. Those skills always count as class skills for you.
Lightning Reflexes is an option for boosting your reflex saving throw and couples well with a ring of evasion which you should be getting around the level to start affording depending on how your GM does wealth.
If you've got some time, using regular Restoration instead of the greater version will save you 3k on those negative levels. Your also getting to the point where you really should have a clone made for you. It runs about 2700 and takes 2d4 months to grow of course, but it's a good investment if you tend to die often.
I am playing a wizard you took 1 level in rogue and I DO NOT REGRET IT!
The skills are lovely and really help the wizard to know things not just use magic. I evev used the sneak attack once which really suprised the brigand who felt he didn't need to worry about the silly guy in robes flanking him. Admittedly that was a lucky roll, but fun. I say go for it. You moght want to consider only one level though unless you really want evasion which is a very nice benefit. Mind you if you go two levels you also get a rogue talent many of which work well with wizards. If youi do go 2 levels though try to talk any other primary casters in the party to dip into something as well. That way the relative power levels within the party stay stable. If fact it would be funny if you all took a level in something else. A kind of vacation.Short version. Taking levels in anything other than your...
That's another interesting point. I know it's not optimal to multiclass, but it does help flesh out a character beyond the normal boundaries.
I'm not talking about the point where I want to go full Arcane Trickster, either.
Also, I am hearing about the option of using traits to make up for it. I've already used my Faith and Social traits up, so I'd be hard pressed to find a Sense Motive or Intimidate trait. Enchantment is an opposition school, so any social interaction skills would likely be done manually anyways.
As GM and player I like the opportunities multiclassing offers for developing a character. For example, how does the character go about learning to a rogue, especially if there isn't one in the party already? How does he take to it? What do you have to do to find someone willing and able to divulge some trade secrets or simply school you in the way of the new class? Some players might not like this, but I find most players like developing their characters and feeling that the character had to go to some lengths to develop himself, rather than just pointing and clicking.
Enchantment is an opposition school, so any social interaction skills would likely be done manually anyways.
Sounds like multi-classing into Bard would be a better choice... Huge skill selection, another spell list (Hello, CLW!) which doesn't suffer from the specializations as a Wizard.
... not to mention that if your group is still okay with 3.5 material, you could go into the Ultimate Magus prestige class from Complete Mage.
Alright well I've got a few suggestions to make. A level or two of rogue isn't a horrible thing but as everyone else has mentioned you've got other options when it comes to grabbing some skill points. The feat Cosmopolitan is also good for grabbing class skills.
** spoiler omitted **Lightning Reflexes is an option for boosting your reflex saving throw and couples well with a ring of evasion which you should be getting around the level to start affording depending on how your GM does wealth.
If you've got some time, using regular Restoration instead of the greater version will save you 3k on those negative levels. Your also getting to the point where you really should have a clone made for you. It runs about 2700 and takes 2d4 months to grow of course, but it's a good investment if you tend to die often.
I had totally forgotten about the Cosmopolitan feat. We're playing in Forgotten Realms, and my character is from Waterdeep, so that would fit.
Due to some party decisions in the past, as well as some mistakes on the GM's side, however, our gear has been relatively underpowered. I'd like a ring of evasion, but unless I get a Hand of Glory first, my options are quite limited from a story perspective (my two current rings are of great importance to me).
Take Additional Traits to get the class skills you desire.
Or, take Craft Wondrous Item to make items that give you boosts to your social skills. An item that gives +10 to a skill costs 5000 gp to make. One that gives +10 to two skills is 12500 gp. That really isn't much at your level, and you can use CWI to do other cool stuff and make your money go double.
Leadership - get a rogue cohort.
DONE.
Take Additional Traits to get the class skills you desire.
Or, take Craft Wondrous Item to make items that give you boosts to your social skills. An item that gives +10 to a skill costs 5000 gp to make. One that gives +10 to two skills is 12500 gp. That really isn't much at your level, and you can use CWI to do other cool stuff and make your money go double.
Like I said before, our characters are rather undergeared. My current wealth at 9th level stands at about 20k, including gear.
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Enchantment is an opposition school, so any social interaction skills would likely be done manually anyways.Sounds like multi-classing into Bard would be a better choice... Huge skill selection, another spell list (Hello, CLW!) which doesn't suffer from the specializations as a Wizard.
... not to mention that if your group is still okay with 3.5 material, you could go into the Ultimate Magus prestige class from Complete Mage.
I agree I think you would get more out of a dip in bard than rogue. Not to mention Bards get will and ref as good saves.
I agree I think you would get more out of a dip in bard than rogue. Not to mention Bards get will and ref as good saves.
Bard was going to be my second option, but what archetype would I take? Demagogue or Magician seem like the two obvious choices for me.
What about prestiging instead of dipping?
The loremaster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perform (Cha), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
No spell progression or caster level loss.
Actually, as suggested above, the Bard is not a bad idea. However, I'd go with the Magician archtype, given you are a wizard.
Dweomercraft (Su): A magician can use performance to manipulate magical energies. Allies of the magician gain a +1 bonus on caster level checks, concentration checks, and attack rolls with spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability relies on visual and audible components. It replaces inspire courage.
Note you count as your own ally, so while keeping this up, you can boost your own spellcasting ability.
Magical Talent (Ex): A magician gains a bonus equal to half his level on Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device checks. This ability replaces bardic knowledge.
A bonus of +1 for a level dip you wanted to take anyway on 2 of your main skills and a really nice secondary skill (UMD).
Improved Counterspell: A magician gains Improved Counterspell as a bonus feat. This ability replaces countersong.
And a very very nice bonus feat for a wizard, if you don't already have it.
It also gives you all the class skills you wanted for FoP, as well as several others. You get a nice bundle of skill points, access to some more cantrips, and the ability to use all cure wounds wands (this last one is a major boon, since you can heal yourself).
What, exactly, are you looking for advice on Maybryn? Are you looking for advice on how to be an effective party face? Or how to make more skills class skills/get higher skill bonuses? Or are you looking on how to have higher reflex saves? Or are you just looking for people to tell you that taking levels of rogue sounds like an awesome idea?
I'm just looking for a different set of eyes on this.
There are, from the responses, a number of ways to gain access to skill bonuses without having to rely explicitly on taking levels of rogue. Many of these options also mitigate my fear of reflex saves.
These are my two goals: improve reflex saves, and gain access to skills that help optimize my role as the face of the party (Sense Motive and Intimidate, primarily).
I've already taken Leadership, and I have an Urban Ranger cohort (who acts as a trapfinder and provides potshots and cover fire).
I've died 3 times in the past 3 sessions. Two of them were due to failed reflex saves.
There's usually more than one way to look at that.
For example, if you died from fire damage as a wizard, I'd call that a failure to have resist energy or any number of other spells up, not a failure to make a reflex save.
Just food for thought.
To me this all boils down to one question:
"What would your character do?"
What concept is your character built to fulfill? What may have changed in your character's life experiences that might cause him/her to change their personal self-image?
Presumably your character doesn't have access to the rule books. When these sorts of things come up for my characters I always do my level best to put myself in my character's head and ask the above question.
So, your character has died three times and cost the party 10,000g each time. What does your character think about that?
1. Does he think it's been his fault each time? Or does he feel that the party has not provided him the healing or protection that should have been afforded a mighty mage?
2. How important is gold to him? Is squeezing every last gold piece out of the adventure a major priority? Or is he more interested in the end goal of defeating the BBEG, or is he more interested in building a reputation as a mage to be reckoned with?
3. How much does dying bother him? Were they painful, agonizing deaths or near instantaneous ones? Have you ever once considered while the character was dead whether the character actually WANTED to come back to life? Or is it a given that he wants to?
4. How much does he care about the other party members, or of their opinion of him? Note, I am not asking how much YOU care about the other PLAYERS or their opinion of YOU. Does he really care if he's taking some fraction of loot out of their pockets? Or does he feel that 10,000g here and there is simply a cost of doing business and they should be glad to have him at any cost?
Assuming you go through all of 1-4 and the answer is "He feels it's his fault, he hates losing the gold, he hates dying and he's concerned that the other party members are resentful and wants them to like him" then he might pursue some activity to reduce his chances of dying. But what are his options there?
1. Can he improve his survivability through increased AC, hit points, concealment, etc?
2. Can the party adjust tactics so that he is not as exposed?
3. Are there magical items or abilities that would deal with his situation?
4. What is his long term goal, and how much would addressing this short-term problem affect meeting his long term goals?
Anyway, the point is that the end result of all of this could be that your wizard decides that rogues seem to survive more often and that becoming more like a rogue might be helpful, and then YOU as a player would decide to dip a level into rogue. But there are other ways to become more like a rogue. Feats, magic items, spell buffs, etc.
Not knowing your character, his concept or his personality, it is not really possible to recommend a particular action, but the proposed reaction you have listed here, dipping a level into rogue, seems a drastic approach to the situation unless the character's concept has always been to be a sort of sneaky, skill-monkeyish wizard. If that's not the case and you've so far been playing him as a bookish, aloof, confident magical scholar, then dipping a level into rogue does not seem to fit into that character's past or concept.
The last thing you should do is make a decision based on what the most optimal way to make a high reflex saving throw is.
At least in my opinion.
The last thing you should do is make a decision based on what the most optimal way to make a high reflex saving throw is.
At least in my opinion.
I have to disagree Brass.
I'm one of the first to say Roleplay over Rollplay. However, if the character is concerned about the fact they keep dieing and can't seem to avoid taking hits, then it's perfectly reasonable to look around and see who does a good job at something and go learn how to do it.
NFL players are taking ballet lessons because they want to increase their sense of balance (reflex saves) in real life. Now, I don't know many 6 foot 4 males who really want to take ballet lessons because they like ballet. However, it's a viable response to 'I'm clumsy on my feet'.
So, as long as there's been things in character that makes the wizard not trust his own ability to keep himself safe due to his horrible reaction speed, it makes perfect sense for him to look at what he can do in character to boost it. Training in a different job is a perfectly valid response to that, and trying to pick something that compliments his existing skills and job.
The last thing you should do is make a decision based on what the most optimal way to make a high reflex saving throw is.
At least in my opinion.
I have to disagree Brass.
I'm one of the first to say Roleplay over Rollplay. However, if the character is concerned about the fact they keep dieing and can't seem to avoid taking hits, then it's perfectly reasonable to look around and see who does a good job at something and go learn how to do it.
NFL players are taking ballet lessons because they want to increase their sense of balance (reflex saves) in real life. Now, I don't know many 6 foot 4 males who really want to take ballet lessons because they like ballet. However, it's a viable response to 'I'm clumsy on my feet'.
So, as long as there's been things in character that makes the wizard not trust his own ability to keep himself safe due to his horrible reaction speed, it makes perfect sense for him to look at what he can do in character to boost it. Training in a different job is a perfectly valid response to that, and trying to pick something that compliments his existing skills and job.
MDT - Noticing that rogues do a better job of surviving a fireball than wizards do and deciding to emulate a rogue is quite a bit different than scouring the rule books for the most optimal way to get a high reflex save. And I listed that as a potential role playing way to address this.
My point is that the decision should be made as if by the character based on what the character knows, not by the player based on reading the rule books. Or that's how I view it.
My point is that the decision should be made as if by the character based on what the character knows, not by the player based on reading the rule books. Or that's how I view it.
The problem is, without the player having written a tome on the character's background, there's no way of knowing what the character actually knows.
For example, his uncle could have been a performing stage magician, who wow'd crowds and did acrobatic tricks (magician bard). This might have inspired the character to take up wizardry in the first place.
Perhaps his sister is a rogue (acrobat) and he goes to her for some training, and ends up with that class/archtype.
The point is, the player has ultimate control over his or her character background, so long as that background is possible in the GMs world. If the player decides he wants Bard (magician) instead of Rogue (Acrobat), then his background includes the magician bard uncle.
You are coming at it from the opposite way and saying 'You can not do anything you want, you have to do sub optimal at all times to avoid Rollplaying!'. That's as wrong as saying someone has to have a specific build because 'it is the only right way to play a wizard'.
The very fact that the wizard is multiclassing into a face type class is already a roleplay decision based on what happened in game, is not optimizing or min/maxing. There's no need to hit the player with a stick for picking the way to do it that gives them exactly what they want.
My point is that the decision should be made as if by the character based on what the character knows, not by the player based on reading the rule books. Or that's how I view it.The problem is, without the player having written a tome on the character's background, there's no way of knowing what the character actually knows.
For example, his uncle could have been a performing stage magician, who wow'd crowds and did acrobatic tricks (magician bard). This might have inspired the character to take up wizardry in the first place.
Perhaps his sister is a rogue (acrobat) and he goes to her for some training, and ends up with that class/archtype.
The point is, the player has ultimate control over his or her character background, so long as that background is possible in the GMs world. If the player decides he wants Bard (magician) instead of Rogue (Acrobat), then his background includes the magician bard uncle.
You are coming at it from the opposite way and saying 'You can not do anything you want, you have to do sub optimal at all times to avoid Rollplaying!'. That's as wrong as saying someone has to have a specific build because 'it is the only right way to play a wizard'.
The very fact that the wizard is multiclassing into a face type class is already a roleplay decision based on what happened in game, is not optimizing or min/maxing. There's no need to hit the player with a stick for picking the way to do it that gives them exactly what they want.
I didn't say the player had to have a volume of background material to guide this decision. I said the character should be following a CONCEPT of some sort to guide role playing decisions like this. I also said that life experiences could easily MODIFY that concept, but that should be part of role playing TOO.
I have not "hit the player with a stick" in any way, I've simply said "What would your character do" and I've pointed out that there are options, some of which might well be both MORE OPTIMAL and MORE CONSISTENT with the character concept than what the player has proposed.
For some reason I think when someone posts a message on these boards looking for advice and options, I actually think they are looking for advice and options.
For some reason when I offer advice and options to a person on these boards I actually think I am offering advice and options instead of telling them that they have to do it exactly as I say or they are engaging in "badwrongfun." But no matter how carefully I couch the advice or how clearly I say this is just my opinion, I still get this sort of response from someone who wants to characterize my advice as some sort of mandate from on high and my opinion as some sort of "badwrongfun".
Sheesh... gets old.
brassbabboon:
We can certainly investigate my character's background as well, if you've the time:
The first death was actually my previous character, a Transmuter (more specifically, the Enhancement archetype). It was a combat with a wizard, his druid companion, some shadows, and a mob of fanatic commoners. It went horribly awry on all facets: shadows ganged up on the cleric, who was brought prone, the alchemist went into melee with BBEG and was knocked unconscious (then grabbed by the flying BBEG), I used telekinesis to grab the alchemist, but a Will'o'wisp attacked me, caused me to lose concentration, and drop the alchemist 60' to his death atop a peasant under control of the BBEG. The BBEG, enraged at the death of the alchemist, fired a near-point-blank cone of cold on me and the Will'o'wisp. I failed my reflex save and died. Only one who made it out alive was the barbarian. BBEG raised the alchemist later (don't ask why, the character was willing for some reason).
For reasons I'll not disclose, I decided it was time to move onto a new character, who is a LE noble in exile because her aunt used subterfuge to steal her father's right to succession from him. She's journeying to build her own network of allies to confront her aunt, and happened across the barbarian in hiding because she was searching for the alchemist. Revenge is her primary motivation, so she's willing to go to any lengths to gain enough power to overcome her aunt's growing network of spies and assassins.
However, we did not have a proper healer in the three combat sessions that followed. In the first combat, I was hit by a cone of cold and a fireball in back-to-back rounds. I failed my reflex save on both, which brought me to -20 hp (my character has 65 hit points and 14 CON). The GM called a mulligan on this one and said I was at -13 and stable.
The second combat session took a few hits out of me, but I was still doing fine thanks to some summoned monsters and a well-timed Enervation.
In the next combat, a swarm, however, found me rather tasty. Two times, it moved towards me, and both times caused me to get nauseated. It wasn't the swarm that killed me, however... it was the falling damage when it brought me into dying while I was 40 feet up.
As such, I've only lost 10k gp, which happened when my butler/urban ranger hawked one of my magic items - without the party's consent - to get me raised and restored.
It fits the character's personality to be paranoid (sense motive) and overbearing (intimidate), so that's the primary purpose of looking into gaining these skills. Upon retrospect, I see that a bard is superior to a rogue because of this. Traits won't work because I've already got faith and social traits, but Cosmopolitan matches it perfectly. Also, given that her father and brother both are in the Harpers (it was in my background well before this revelation of "crap I need intimidate and sense motive"), a dip into bard isn't terribly far-fetched.
For some reason I think when someone posts a message on these boards looking for advice and options, I actually think they are looking for advice and options.
For some reason when I offer advice and options to a person on these boards I actually think I am offering advice and options instead of telling them that they have to do it exactly as I say or they are engaging in "badwrongfun." But no matter how carefully I couch the advice or how clearly I say this is just my opinion, I still get this sort of response from someone who wants to characterize my advice as some sort of mandate from on high and my opinion as some sort of "badwrongfun".
Ok, so...
OP asks for options and thoughts.
Other people post options for them.
Then you post your advice, say that the other options posted are not what the character would/should do, that people are just optimizing rather than roleplaying, and your advice should be followed instead.
Someone posts that they don't agree with your advice, and doesn't think your advice should be followed either.
Somehow, your posts are advice, but people who post who are not agreeing with you are either (A) putting out only optimizations, which is not roleplaying, or (B) are attacking you and not giving advice to the OP?
So, you can comment that other people's advice is not real advice, but if someone questions your advice, they are calling you badwrongfun and it's not advice?
Please note that I never said you had not given advice, I simply disagreed with your advice and said why. This is also advice to the OP, because I had strong feelings on it. You don't have to agree with it (obviously you wont), but saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is not giving advice or is somehow attacking you personally is not a way to debate (despite all the BS going on in D.C. trying to prove the contrary).
Please note that I never said you had not given advice, I simply disagreed with your advice and said why. This is also advice to the OP, because I had strong feelings on it. You don't have to agree with it (obviously you wont), but saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is not giving advice or is somehow attacking you personally is not a way to debate (despite all the BS going on in D.C. trying to prove the contrary).
Quite the contrary for me, actually. I'm looking at all of the aspects of this, and both yours and brassbabboon's inputs are relevant to my question.
I hadn't seen that.
That makes taking CWI all the more important :D
It fits the character's personality to be paranoid (sense motive) and overbearing (intimidate), so that's the primary purpose of looking into gaining these skills. Upon retrospect, I see that a bard is superior to a rogue because of this. Traits won't work because I've already got faith and social traits, but Cosmopolitan matches it perfectly.
OK, this is good. You've obviously done some work on creating a background and exploring the motivations of this character.
A level of bard would seem to be a reasonable consideration. A bard is also an arcane caster as well. Incidentally bards and rogues both give you a +2 to reflex, but the bard also gives you a +2 to will.
The only question I would have is if you have fully investigated the impact that certain feats and/or magic items would have as opposed to dipping into another class. And on that note, have you entertained any custom feats your GM might be willing to accept?
This is one of those situations if I was the GM I would want to have a detailed discussion with the player about what problem the player was trying to solve. Taking a level in a different class for a full caster is a pretty drastic decision, essentially delaying their access to higher level spells by a full level for the rest of their career. This gets more and more impactful the higher level you go.
Between bard and rogue, I would say bard seems to be more consistent with your background and motivations as you've presented them here.
I hadn't seen that.
That makes taking CWI all the more important :D
CWI is already on my feats, along with CMA&A. :)
I hadn't seen that.
That makes taking CWI all the more important :D
Mental block. CWI?
EDIT : Never mind, Create Wondrous Item
This is one of those situations if I was the GM I would want to have a detailed discussion with the player about what problem the player was trying to solve. Taking a level in a different class for a full caster is a pretty drastic decision, essentially delaying their access to higher level spells by a full level for the rest of their career. This gets more and more impactful the higher level you go.Between bard and rogue, I would say bard seems to be more consistent with your background and motivations as you've presented them here.
The two problems I'm trying to solve are my vulnerability to reflex-based spells and my need for moar skillz. The latter I believe I can resolve with the Cosmopolitan feat, and it looks like I'd be better off solving the former with magic items (belt of dexterity, hand of glory, ring of evasion) rather than with class levels.
I think my path is now clear. Assuming I live to 11th level, I might actually be a diplomatic force to be reckoned with.
Then you post your advice, say that the other options posted are not what the character would/should do, that people are just optimizing rather than roleplaying, and your advice should be followed instead.
Hmmm... I'd be interested in what part of my original post you think says "other options posted are not what the character would/should do." See, I don't think I said or implied anything like that. You may well have INFERRED that, but that's a different thing. Please quote exactly what I said that leads you to believe I said this.
Someone posts that they don't agree with your advice, and doesn't think your advice should be followed either.
Yes, I agree that YOUR post said that my advice shouldn't be followed, but I don't get the "either" part since I don't think MY post ever said "don't follow anyone else's advice." Again, please cite where I said this.
Somehow, your posts are advice, but people who post who are not agreeing with you are either (A) putting out only optimizations, which is not roleplaying, or (B) are attacking you and not giving advice to the OP?
So, you can comment that other people's advice is not real advice, but if someone questions your advice, they are calling you badwrongfun and it's not advice?
Wow, you've really got this firmly in your head that I am telling people that my advice is the only advice worth listening to. I am very, very interested in what leads you to believe that I said or implied this because I don't think I've ever done either.
Please note that I never said you had not given advice, I simply disagreed with your advice and said why. This is also advice to the OP, because I had strong feelings on it. You don't have to agree with it (obviously you wont), but saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is not giving advice or is somehow attacking you personally is not a way to debate (despite all the BS going on in D.C. trying to prove the contrary).
This whole thing boils down to your obvious belief that I have somehow overtly said, or sneakily implied that only my advice should be listened to and I have attacked others for giving their advice.
Please cite, from this thread, from my original post, what leads you to believe this. I am sincerely, seriously interested in that. Because I don't believe it is remotely the case.
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Just buy a royal outfit or even a hat of disguise if you want to be a fop.
Absolutely no reason to go and shoot yourself in the foot by loosing levels in wizard and permanently delaying your spell progression.
There is an additional trait called "Magical Knack" that keeps my caster level at the top notch.
Another benefit to dipping into rogue would be evasion, if I took two levels. The bane of every wizard's existence is a Reflex save, and the high bonus with this ability almost negates any danger with that.
If that is what you want go monk. Evasion at 2nd, add wisdom to dex, two bonus feats, and +3 to all saves for a e level dip.
That being said, stay wizard.
Just want to point that by the time you are 11th level and reach your "pay off", if you had been a wizard you could be binding lillends, succubi, efreeti, and even rakshasa to be your party face, all of which I am sure would have skill modifiers significantly higher than your wiz 9/rogue 2, and sounds more in line with a conjurer, anyway.
ps: Why isnt your wizard under greater invisibility and teleporting away from any hazards? Reflex saves... pshaw!
I think you misunderstood: I'm going full wizard, making magic items to suit my devious needs and taking Cosmopolitan as my 11th level feat.
My GM is rather evil, and my IRL Wisdom is pretty low (another player once called me the "dumbest smart person" he knew), so I'm afraid of using Planar Binding of any sort with regard to the backlash I would receive from him. Better to rely on my character's wits and the dice rolls than my own.
You can also just plain summon lillends and succubi w/ summon monster 6. Lillend is far and away my favorite summon as a conjurer. :)
I wish I could greentext so I could do the following:
>Summon Monster 6
>I'm level 9
I'll keep that in mind when I hit 11th level.
This is one of those situations if I was the GM I would want to have a detailed discussion with the player about what problem the player was trying to solve. Taking a level in a different class for a full caster is a pretty drastic decision, essentially delaying their access to higher level spells by a full level for the rest of their career. This gets more and more impactful the higher level you go.Between bard and rogue, I would say bard seems to be more consistent with your background and motivations as you've presented them here.
The two problems I'm trying to solve are my vulnerability to reflex-based spells and my need for moar skillz. The latter I believe I can resolve with the Cosmopolitan feat, and it looks like I'd be better off solving the former with magic items (belt of dexterity, hand of glory, ring of evasion) rather than with class levels.
I think my path is now clear. Assuming I live to 11th level, I might actually be a diplomatic force to be reckoned with.
OK, I'm going to actually offer some direct advice here instead of the general directional advice I originally offered. Of course that just makes it much more likely that I'll be accused of trying to beat you with a stick if you don't listen to me, but whatever. You can do what you like, this is just random advice from a stranger on the internet, and I assume you and everyone else knows what that is generally worth.
Look hard at your battle tactics and your utilization of existing spells and abilities. I've played wizards, sorcerers and other vulnerable spellcasters in combat and in my opinion (let me repeat that since it doesn't seem to always be understood that what I am doing is, in fact, offering my opinion, not some diabolical divine imperative that you must follow or else...) in my opinion a wizard who is failing reflex saves should be looking more at why he is having to make reflex saves than at how to improve his chances to be successful with those saves. I believe (which is not to say that I have omniscience and know with perfect authority) I believe that a ninth level wizard has some available options to avoid getting into reflex save situations in the first place. I would work more on how to avoid those situations than on boosting my reflex saves. That's because even if you boost them, you can still fail them.
As far as the skills go, if you want to boost social skills and want to be a diplomatic force (meaning those are important parts of your character's self-image and concept) then you should pursue that. Feats can help, but taking a level of bard could help more than a feat because it gives you more class skill bonuses. But, again, there are also magical ways to address this as well. I'm not going to recommend that you acquire a cohort or summon someone or something to take that on, not because I think it's bad advice, but because I generally don't play that way. Just a personal preference is all. I would investigate every possible way that I could address those skill issues with a wizard's resources before deciding that dipping into bard is the right way to go. (Update/edit: I see that you have decided to do this already. Good choice.)
But in the end, do what you feel best gives you the ability to play your character and have fun with him. That's all that really matters.
OK, I'm going to actually offer some direct advice here instead of the general directional advice I originally offered. Of course that just makes it much more likely that I'll be accused of trying to beat you with a stick if you don't listen to me, but whatever. You can do what you like, this is just random advice from a stranger on the internet, and I assume you and everyone else knows what that is generally worth.Look hard at your battle tactics and your utilization of existing spells and abilities. I've played wizards, sorcerers and other vulnerable spellcasters in combat and in my opinion (let me repeat that since it doesn't seem to always be understood that what I am doing is, in fact, offering my opinion, not some diabolical divine imperative that you must follow or else...) in my opinion a wizard who is failing reflex saves should be looking more at why he is having to make reflex saves than at how to improve his chances to be successful with...
I certainly agree that we need to look hard at the battle tactics as well. I don't want to make reflex saves any more than necessary. I think my biggest challenge is finding out ways to cast battle-altering spells without becoming the most viable target, which seems to be my downfall. In the situations where I've died, it was because of my attempts to position others on the battlefield. This was like when I tried to save the alchemist from BBEG, or when I used my teleport ability to get my urban ranger closer for melee combat.
I know more than anyone else on this board that I will not make it to 11th level if I don't make some significant changes to my battle tactics.