Sorry for my ignorance, but what is E6?
You basically stop leveling after 6th level. Any level you would gain after that instead can get you a feat or a slight increase in power. It helps balance out the casters who tend to get exceptionally powerful after this point.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?352719-necro-goodness-E6-The-Game-Insid e-D-amp-D
Wow. Thanks I get it now. I don't like it, but I get it.
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Sorry for my ignorance, but what is E6?You basically stop leveling after 6th level. Any level you would gain after that instead can get you a feat or a slight increase in power. It helps balance out the casters who tend to get exceptionally powerful after this point.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?352719-necro-goodness-E6-The-Game-Insid e-D-amp-D
::jaw drops::
That is gorgeous. That has me rethinking my entire plan for my upcoming campaign.
I don't think 12+ is problem but at around 16th level things can really go sideways with casters. In particular Cleric and Druids. Wizards seem to be too easy to stop. At least that is my experience, it's pretty easy to shut down a wizard with CR 17 and 18 encounters but Clerics not so much. Even easier to shut down a fighter.How are you shutting down wizards and sorcerers at level 16? At those levels they generally do what they want to do.
PS:I am assuming you have a player that has a good selection of spells that can be used in a variety of situations, and knows when to use them.
How? Cyclopes with vorpal weapons. Creatures using a quickened greater teleport to get up close and personal. Anti-magic field. Make the area pitch-black, or in a muddy underwater area, or in a teeny tiny maze of tunnels that only their opponent knows well. There's all sorts of ways - the challenge is to do it in a way that fits the circumstance, doesn't feel tailored to nerf the character, and most of all, is fun.
Frankly, they're powerful. They should be able to do powerful things. But other powerful creatures can just as easily set traps for them.
This thread underscores why I think a Game Mastery for high levels book is a must. Now that I think about it, probably a guide book for 10-20 (roughly) and then a guide for the mythic levels, once that goes live.
I think it'll be wonderful, but no amount of text is going to equal experience, and that's something you just can't buy in a sourcebook. That's why I'm very much not a fan of starting at high level. I want players to start at low levels and to grow into their characters. If a table does that, the GM will grow into their role at the same time. That's part of the genius of the Adventure Paths.
Actually, the best way I've ever found to combat any "game breaking" aspects of high-level play is to let the monsters occasionally do to the players exactly what the players are doing to the monsters. Once the players have weathered a scry-n-fry attack, they will come up with all sorts of creative and imaginative defenses& Which the next BBEG can also use.
Of course, not every villain will be warded like this, but it only takes a couple of spectacular failures sprinkled in with the successes to make your players more cautious. Thereafter, if they take the time (and risk!) to infiltrate the evil villain's lair and sabotage his defenses to ensure that their next scry-n-fry will work, then their next scry-n-fry *should* work - they've earned it!
Right. Sometimes it'll make the encounter a cake walk, then they get overconfident, and then BAM they're trying to keep just one character alive in order to have the chance of using true resurrection to bring the others back. The bad guys can do this stuff too :)
People talk about the GM "knowing the rules" and "being familiar with counters" and I'm sorry, but I'm going to call foul.
It's not just individual spells that are at issue, but their synergy (it's why it's called "scry and fry" afterall).
I am not convinced that the GMs on this thread have contemplated every synergy between the various spells in the Ultimate Magic, plus Core, plus whatever 3PP or campaign-specific stuff that's being used. That's too many spells, too many class abilities, etc to keep track of how they all might interact. And problem is, the 30 INT, five-thousand year-old Red Dragon the party is up against: he does know all those synergies and counters, at least in-game. Problem is, I'm his GM, I only have so much time to prep an encounter, not to mention his lair/backstory and other non-combat elements of the session. While at the same time, I have a handful of PCs pooling all their prep-time browsing through d20pfsrd looking for broken combos. I can't compete with that. And telling me that I should is just rediculous.
And then after they past him in one beautifically executed round, they ask "why didn't Mr Ancient Supergenious Dragon think of that, it could have been totally undone by X, Y and Z spells? They've been around since the founding of Thassalon." and then I throw the book at them, which was printed last month (considerably more recently than Thassalon's founding) and we're back to playing E6.
One way I read about handling this was to treat the superintelligent creatures as sort of omniscient. After all, any creature with an Int of 40 is probably smarter than I could ever conceive of being. So instead of trying to plan ahead for the players (impossible), after they act, do something the creature would have done if it had known what was coming.
The party cast a bunch of spells? Oh, it certainly would have spell immunity running. And mind blank, undoubtedly.
The fighter is charging in to pull of that Greater Vital Strike? Well, certainly there would have been a pit trap right there.
Cheating? Hell no. It's someone with an Int of 10 trying to portray what a creature with an Int of 40 would do. Odds are such a creature would seem to have telepathy and ESP, among other things.
Another option: say it fails. You don't even have to know how it fails. If you're that anal about it (as I am), you can go back after the fact and figure out what abilities and/or magic would be necessary. Or not.
Important: This is not intended to be a justification for ill-mannered GMs to defeat everything the party tries. It's meant to be a justification for the Lord of All Dragons not going down in 1 round because the players found some combination of feats and spells they think should one-shot a dragon.
And then, of course, like Charles Carrier said ... at some point in the future ... do it to them. I know I get a knowing nod from the fighter in my group on the rare occasions that I throw a creature with Devastating Critical at them. I don't do with every creature, and not even that often, but I do do it, and he's even gone down to it.
People talk about the GM "knowing the rules" and "being familiar with counters" and I'm sorry, but I'm going to call foul.
It's not just individual spells that are at issue, but their synergy (it's why it's called "scry and fry" afterall).
I am not convinced that the GMs on this thread have contemplated every synergy between the various spells in the Ultimate Magic, plus Core, plus whatever 3PP or campaign-specific stuff that's being used. That's too many spells, too many class abilities, etc to keep track of how they all might interact. And problem is, the 30 INT, five-thousand year-old Red Dragon the party is up against: he does know all those synergies and counters, at least in-game. Problem is, I'm his GM, I only have so much time to prep an encounter, not to mention his lair/backstory and other non-combat elements of the session. While at the same time, I have a handful of PCs pooling all their prep-time browsing through d20pfsrd looking for broken combos. I can't compete with that. And telling me that I should is just rediculous.
And then after they past him in one beautifically executed round, they ask "why didn't Mr Ancient Supergenious Dragon think of that, it could have been totally undone by X, Y and Z spells? They've been around since the founding of Thassalon." and then I throw the book at them, which was printed last month (considerably more recently than Thassalon's founding) and we're back to playing E6.
That's why you are careful about what sources and materials you use. If you allow all possibly compatible sources with no screening, you deserve what you get. You may not be able to predict every combination, but most of the major ones have clear warning signs.
That's why you are careful about what sources and materials you use. If you allow all possibly compatible sources with no screening, you deserve what you get. You may not be able to predict every combination, but most of the major ones have clear warning signs.
*shrug*
I allow every single official WoTC and Paizo printed book in my campaign.
Sure, there's killer combinations - but all that does is, really, give the party a higher effective level. So the stuff they can deal with is just harder.
I don't have a big problem with any of it except a few corner cases that I've noted elsewhere. Overall, I think it gives a lot of options and I think that's a good thing.
And if they find something cool and they one-shot an encounter ... so what? If it were a 4-hour slot at a con I might be upset. Seeing as it's the sixth year of a long running campaign, I don't really have an issue with it.
That's why you are careful about what sources and materials you use. If you allow all possibly compatible sources with no screening, you deserve what you get. You may not be able to predict every combination, but most of the major ones have clear warning signs.*shrug*
I allow every single official WoTC and Paizo printed book in my campaign.
Sure, there's killer combinations - but all that does is, really, give the party a higher effective level. So the stuff they can deal with is just harder.
I don't have a big problem with any of it except a few corner cases that I've noted elsewhere. Overall, I think it gives a lot of options and I think that's a good thing.
And if they find something cool and they one-shot an encounter ... so what? If it were a 4-hour slot at a con I might be upset. Seeing as it's the sixth year of a long running campaign, I don't really have an issue with it.
I personally am the same way, though I would probably limit the sources initially just because I'd rather find appropriate places for the rest in the world that I would be creating and using additional sources to help make the different regions feel different. But those who are overly worried about potential combinations and than allow massive amounts of material need to understand that they are the source of their own headaches.
Cheating? Hell no. It's someone with an Int of 10 trying to portray what a creature with an Int of 40 would do. Odds are such a creature would seem to have telepathy and ESP, among other things.
Again, something that should go into a High-level book. Along with the admonition not to be a jerk about it.
Actually if you want to extend that there are Skills which cover stuff like this. Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft cover a good chunk of "what is possible with magic". An Int 40 creature has a base +15 and likely ranks to back it. Really though questions (like which 3 spells combined will end me in 6 seconds or less) with DCs of 30 or 40 may not be outside of it's comprehension.
A good sub-rule for a high level book would be a system to fairly adjudicate that kind of foreknowledge but allow a GM to execute it on the fly. Does the BBEG know just where to put the pit for the Vital Strike charging fighter regardless of the actual, possibly convoluted, path he takes? Roll a Knowledge Local check for and see if the BBEG has the relevant psychological knowledge to out guess. It's not about the GM intentionally going after the player's it's about asking WWBBEGD? And being fair to the BBEG's capabilities.
I've seen people (as a general statement) moan about Skills detracting from RP. IMO they are one of the tools for helping simulate a world and creatures so far beyond our mortal kin it's hard to grasp.
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Another tip to include in this hypothetical "Mythic Adventures" book:
Use the others around you for resources. This is why Paizo, WoTC, KQ, and any other good publisher employs teams of people. More heads thinking about something, and sharing those ideas, is better.
Recently, I have been collaborating with a few board members to tweak encounters for my Kingmaker campaign. Just being able to bounce the idea for a particular encounter led to all sorts of awesome plot/NPC development. In fact, a few simple emails helped me create a whole new LBEG for the transition between Book 4 & Book 5.
In addition, listen to your players! Most of the time, they will create wild tangents of thoughts that you would never have dreamed of.
"Hm, that wizard guy last week was really tough. I bet he was really a devil in disguise, or some kind of shapeshifting dragon or something."
Well, he wasn't before, but you can be darned sure he is now.
The trick is to pick & choose those tidbits you lift, and spread them out over time. If you drop the "plot twist exactly as you predicted it would happen" card too many times, they'll catch on to you. If, instead, you absorb that info, integrate into your future plans, and stay flexible enough to use it, bob's your uncle you're all set!
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Here's my problem with high-level play:
At low levels, you have three main ingredients -- investigation, travel/terrain, and encounters. They make a nice mix. By high level, as pointed out, PC abilities have rendered the first two non-functional, leaving you with only the third. We've talked about that, but haven't discussed why it's such a problem.
The issue is that the third one quickly gets absurd, to where there's no logical explanation possible. To challenge PCs, you end up seeing stuff like "this extraplanar city has armies of standard grunt guards who are 15th level fighters/10th level clerics." And one wonders why one of these 25th level mooks hasn't simply plane shifted to Golarion and taken the place over, living there like a god instead of serving as adventurer fodder in Superfriends City. Any one antagonist can depopulate a planet, and there are seemingly infinite numbers of them just standing around waiting to be sword fodder.
High level games should have LESS combat, because realistically, there shouldn't be a "top-heavy" universe full of godlike antagonists, and with only a few low-level threats. But that's EXACTLY how things get structured, because with no investigation or travel avalaible, a hiogh-level campaign is forced to resort to still more combat to fill the gap.
And thus, the need for meaningful social combat.
Example: I need to convince the king to help me. I could of course kill him, because I'm a superhero, but that won't be the same, and there's no way his people would follow me if I am guilty of regicide.
And it's got to be better than "make a diplomacy check". Imagine if we resolved encounters with 'fight checks'
This is going to sound weird, but I really think that there are certain spells that create headaches that can turn into full-blown migraines when the players really get up in levels:
1. Teleport--makes it hard to keep players together (or in the same country)
2. Raise Dead/resurrection: dead is no longer a fear
3. Wish/miracles---Nuff said
4. simulacrum---ability to abuse this spell is amazing
Not saying high level adventuring is impossible, just trickier
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And thus, the need for meaningful social combat.
Example: I need to convince the king to help me. I could of course kill him, because I'm a superhero, but that won't be the same, and there's no way his people would follow me if I am guilty of regicide.
And it's got to be better than "make a diplomacy check". Imagine if we resolved encounters with 'fight checks'
Except a 12th level character who has invested in Diplomacy doesn't want their skill choice negated. At that level with a combination of buffs and aid another can turn even the most hostile enemies into friends (see Diplomacy DCs).
Pacing suffers when the only challenge left is a series of ever increasingly difficult or complicated fights.
Example: I need to convince the king to help me. I could of course kill him, because I'm a superhero, but that won't be the same, and there's no way his people would follow me if I am guilty of regicide.
And it's got to be better than "make a diplomacy check". Imagine if we resolved encounters with 'fight checks'
DC 423 dominate person. BZZZZZT. Thank you for seeing the light of Mesmer. We'll be taking that army to go. Now saddle my horse. Scratch that *quickened polymorph object* You are the horse.
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Responsibility.
The problem with high level campaigns is often tied to to the 'all care, no responsibility' mentality of most of the characters.
I have found this to be less of a problem where the players are responsible folks and not just independently wealthy adventurers living a carefree lifestyle.
As they are levelling up, start granting them cursed blessings... minor titles, landholdings etc. This starts to increase the number of things the players have to worry about, and allows for a lot of adventure hooks - they hae a duty to look after 'plothook'.
Similarly, they can be called upon by those above them to lend aid, or to help ward off mutiny/rebellion/overthrow. Clerics, Paladins, and Inquisitors are already tied to a heirarchy, and the other classes lend themselves to a myriad of other ideas... high level Rogues should be pushed into forming Guilds (which mean they need to protect them)
Scale.
Scale and responsibility.
Then the BBEG's can similarly bring scale... rival guilds, invading armies, Papal overthrow, mutiny, etc etc.
It stops being about 'Team Awesome' of five people, and becomes a game of influence.
And thus, the need for meaningful social combat.
Example: I need to convince the king to help me. I could of course kill him, because I'm a superhero, but that won't be the same, and there's no way his people would follow me if I am guilty of regicide.
And it's got to be better than "make a diplomacy check". Imagine if we resolved encounters with 'fight checks'
Except a 12th level character who has invested in Diplomacy doesn't want their skill choice negated. At that level with a combination of buffs and aid another can turn even the most hostile enemies into friends (see Diplomacy DCs).
Pacing suffers when the only challenge left is a series of ever increasingly difficult or complicated fights.
I don't think Diplomacy is quite intended to be the "instant friend, encounter over" scenario that so many people think it is. Just because you are now a friend, doesn't mean you are going to trusted like a life long buddy, especially if you were previously fighting or appeared out of nowhere asking for the keys to the kingdom army/armory/jewels. You can people to listen, but trust is something else entirely.
You can people to listen, but trust is something else entirely.
Especially as the King lives in a magical world full of people with amazing abilities... a King would have a court Wizard to prevent cheezy spells hitting him, as well as sundry magic items to similarly guard himself. Anyone purporting to be (or being known as) a spellcaster would be well vetted by the Kings spies before being let within a million miles of a throne room, and then EVEN IF the King was influenced there would be a smackton of Courtiers and Advisers to overcome.
There would be checks and balances like you wouldn't believe, and within that a whole range of other machinations and wheels within wheels.
You are right, TRUST will need to be built, and with a LOT of players in the right places.
Diplomacy is not a win button.
Talk about influence and obligations is good and all, but the Pathfinder rules don't support you at all.
Other game systems do. For example, Damnation City, by White Wolf covers this. Or many indie games nowadays. But there is no framework of support for that kind of play in Pathfinder. The little bits that there are (ie Diplomacy checks) have the aforementioned problems.
GMs are really on their own, running their own pet subsystems, etc. Which is great. Which is fun. Which is something I do and advocate. But it's not playing Pathfinder. You might call it that, but that's not what you're doing anymore.
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the inability of the GM to handle high levels, because it is terrified of what PC are capable and do not know what to do
but nothing that is not settled with planning and experience
I think the "E6" is very terrible and I never would play
and for those who finish the campaign around level 10 I can not imagine how frustrating it must be for players for example, and especially if you are a spellcaster, never get level 9 spells
Talk about influence and obligations is good and all, but the Pathfinder rules don't support you at all.
Really?
How so?
The whole point is there is very little formal support for high level play, Pathfinder is simply a toolkit - to say it doesn't support such play is a very bold ststement, and I'd be keen to see you back up how what I have posted isn't supported...
(Just for the record - I am running a campaign based on exactly that sort of gameplay, and am in another somewhat similar. So far there has been little to nothing 'made up' to support said gameplay)
Really?How so?
to say it doesn't support such play is a very bold ststement, and I'd be keen to see you back up how what I have posted isn't supported...
Take a look at the chapter on 'combat'. Then read up on all the spells which have combat uses, and equipment used in combat.
Now read the section on negotiation. Oh, wait, there isn't one....
In some games, like Burning Wheel, there is actually a entirely different combat system for non-lethal social combat/diplomacy. While the Sixfold Trial was a step in that direction, it's not nearly as robust as the system the game has for solving problems with violence.
The closest you see for giving appropriate gifts, for example, is in Ultimate Magic under dealing with binding outsiders. Why don't we have rules for the captain of the city guard too?
*This is not entirely Pathfinder's fault. 1e was a pioneering move from wargaming to something else, and the idea you could even have something like that didn't come along until fairly recently. Still, it's the one addition I'd like in Pathfinder high-level play, or pathfinder 2.0
Take a look at the chapter on 'combat'. Then read up on all the spells which have combat uses, and equipment used in combat.
Now read the section on negotiation. Oh, wait, there isn't one....
Now show me the chapter on brushing your teeth, going to the toilet, etc.
Just because it doesn't have a 'chapter' prescribing the specifics doesn't mean squat. It is the GM's job to build all that based on the tools he is given in the core rules. The rules provide the ingredients, the GM is the Chef that turns them into a meal.
Now go pick up the GMG, and go pick up Kingmaker (as two obvious ready sources)
Have a loooooong read.
You'll find stuff like the City Guards, stuff like boons, and a whole raft of empire building materials.
Oh and its all Pathfinder.
Simply put the comments
"But the Pathfinder rules don't support you at all"And
"But it's not playing Pathfinder. You might call it that, but that's not what you're doing anymore."
Are both amazing, and I can't wait for him to make his case. Extraordinary stuff coming from soneone in his position.
I find giving players a time limit tends to fix that.
Get your turn completed in an orderly fashion or forfeit.
The highest level character I have played was a 14th level illusionist in 2e.
By that time our party was flying around space in a faster than light magic sailboat. At that time Illusionists' highest level spells were 7th level. My illusionist had three artifacts, the helm of might, the staff of might and the rod of seven parts. The least powerful magic item he had equipped was probably a ring of air elemental command, unless the full set of Ioun stones is considered less powerful. Because of the way Illusionists were able to take seven first level spells in a seventh level spot, he could literally shoot dragons out of the air with magic missile alone. After wiping out every trace of evil on our home planet (including Orcus and Asmodeus) our party was traveling through space in the hopes of finding something to fight.
It was the most boring time I've ever spent playing D&D.
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the inability of the GM to handle high levels, because it is terrified of what PC are capable and do not know what to do
I give this attempt at a troll a 4/10. While the insulting broadside at anyone who doesn't like high level play does a good job of inspiring a heated response, the generally poor grammar and lack of clarity force the reader to puzzle out what you've just said, which has a cooling effect on the temper.
You should have said "The problem with high level play is the inability of some GMs to handle it, because they are terrified of what the PCs are capable of and does not know what to do in response."
That would have done a much better job of communicating your point (that GMs who don't like high level play are incompetent cowards engaging in badwrongfun). Which would have been a really awesome troll. You totally would have got me, that's for sure.
As it is however, I'm going to go work on tweaking the base classes so they all have a 7th level capstone ability and then start thinking about how I'm going to convert the last three parts of Kingmaker to E7 play.
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The highest level character I have played was a 14th level illusionist in 2e.
By that time our party was flying around space in a faster than light magic sailboat. At that time Illusionists highest level spells were 7th level.
Does not compute. In 2E Illusionists were Specialist Mages, and used the same spell progression chart as Mages (and thus had 9th level spells). Are you sure you weren't playing 1E?
My illusionist had three artifacts, the helm of might, the staff of might and the rod of seven parts. The least powerful magic item he had equipped was probably an ring of air elemental command, unless the full set of Ioun stones is considered less powerful
Your DM's name wasn't Monty by any chance, was it? I mean sweet lord.
7th level spell limit for Illu is def 1E, and artifacts were given out at 10th+, because by then you were uber.
Having 3 and a FTL vessel is just munchkin, however. Kindly note that magic missile scaled ALL the way up in 1E, too...and monsters had much less hp. It was a great spell at all levels.
==Aelryinth
The highest level character I have played was a 14th level illusionist in 2e.
By that time our party was flying around space in a faster than light magic sailboat. At that time Illusionists highest level spells were 7th level.
Does not compute. In 2E Illusionists were Specialist Mages, and used the same spell progression chart as Mages (and thus had 9th level spells). Are you sure you weren't playing 1E?
My illusionist had three artifacts, the helm of might, the staff of might and the rod of seven parts. The least powerful magic item he had equipped was probably an ring of air elemental command, unless the full set of Ioun stones is considered less powerfulYour DM's name wasn't Monty by any chance, was it? I mean sweet lord.
Yeah, probably was 1e, we converted but by then I was tired of playing that character.
Yes, the GM was crazy generous. But that's the point. The characters were super powered. My 14th level illusionist (15th level with the helm of might as I recall) was a God. My ranger in the same campaign had a magic sword that grew in size and power the longer you fought with it. It once got up to +100.
We were fighting gods. Thor was no match for our party.
I've never been as bored. I was actually objecting to the stuff the GM was giving us but he insisted that we'd "need it." Then we'd go to some planet and kick some super villain's ass.
I was sooooo glad to start up a first level character again.
The highest level character I have played was a 14th level illusionist in 2e.
By that time our party was flying around space in a faster than light magic sailboat. At that time Illusionists' highest level spells were 7th level. My illusionist had three artifacts, the helm of might, the staff of might and the rod of seven parts. The least powerful magic item he had equipped was probably a ring of air elemental command, unless the full set of Ioun stones is considered less powerful. Because of the way Illusionists were able to take seven first level spells in a seventh level spot, he could literally shoot dragons out of the air with magic missile alone. After wiping out every trace of evil on our home planet (including Orcus and Asmodeus) our party was traveling through space in the hopes of finding something to fight.
It was the most boring time I've ever spent playing D&D.
I can see why you would be bored. It's also why high level play tends to get problematic if you insist on the whole "slay the dragon" again routine once you hit double digits. Any plot that relies on a single encounter or outcome is going to get destroyed the second it meets the players.
It was the most boring time I've ever spent playing D&D.
I can only imagine...how horrible :(
I can see why you would be bored. It's also why high level play tends to get problematic if you insist on the whole "slay the dragon" again routine once you hit double digits. Any plot that relies on a single encounter or outcome is going to get destroyed the second it meets the players.
See my other posts. That's why we had the FTL sailing ship. The GM set us up as a D&D version of the Green Lantern Corps. We were the defenders of the galaxy, and he'd pit us against some awesome super-villain on some planet that was raping and pillaging willy-nilly. We'd fly in and save the day.
Now the GM was very imaginative. He made up some really crazy things for us to fight. My ranger died twice, and was cast into the void and had to be retrieved by a wish. (Back then dying cost you a point of constitution, so it was a real bummer).
We weren't fighting an endless parade of dragons. Especially not after we slew an army of dragons on our home planet. We were fighting Nazi versions of Superman, or planet-spanning slimes, or interstellar super beings...
I appreciated the effort he put in, but man, another day of kicking God's ass again? Booooring.
It was the most boring time I've ever spent playing D&D.I can only imagine...how horrible :(
It wasn't so bad up until we fought Orcus and Asmodeus, with their dragon army. But that's when the GM opened up the flood gates of monty haulness. At first I was glassy eyed with glee over all the stuff (especially the rod of seven parts which I had been questing for since 10th level, and had only discovered 5 pieces by then).
That was all fine. But the campaign should have ended then. Instead we became the Justice League of Galaxia. It SHOULD have been fun, I suppose. But there was nothing to do but kick super villain's asses. Nothing.
We didn't need food. We didn't need air. We didn't need a planet. The only thing that could possibly challenge us was some deux ex machina GM fiat uber monster, and each time we beat one, our loot level doubled again.
There was nothing but endless combat that we inevitably won and it became a literal chore trying to decide which awesome magical items to use for the next fight.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. It just went from the sublime to the ridiculous in no time flat.
So...after seeing realm after realm falling, why didn't the BBEG's gather up to form an 'Axis of Evil' and push back?
Skipping the heretical E6/E7 talk....
Things that make mid/high-level unplayable:
1.) The monsters with several special abilities that TPK'ed your party at 6th level with Darkness, Cone of Cold, Unholy Blight, etc? Well, by 9th Level, you've learned your lesson and buffed away those problems or wear magic items to lessen their damage/effect. Some GMs can't cope with adaptive (i.e, optimized) players when they've been killing them at low levels for years and now the players have managed to get to mid-level.
2.) Impossible to hit AC. The BBEG spent the last 20 years in gladiatorial combat and can hit 39 AC with a +18 on damage and a crit threat of 15? Nobody in the party can match that with their armor and shields. Which, with multiple attacks, means the meatshield of the party is hamburger after two rounds. Most parties don't have two meatshields. Everybody else pops smoke and leaves the area.
3.) Magical choice lockup. Let's see, do I use the Level 9 mega-spell that will kill everyone, or the Level 5 spell just for this type of monster, or buff everyone with a Level 7 spell - is it dinner time already?
4.) Railroaded plots. You defeated a room full of ninjas? Sorry, you made too much noise in the dungeon, the ogres in the next room heard you and here they come. Defeat them and the last ogre standing sets off the alarm that wakes up the dragon. Ok, you defeated them all, congrats, you leveled. Which you did last game too. Have your character re-optimized with a prestige class at their new level by next game! You have to race the goblin hordes to save the princess by nightfall. No time for crafting, buying, selling, sleeping, or any of that "normal" stuff. The GM runs a tight ship.
5.) Realizing that at Level 18, your player character can pretty much take on the baddest, drunkest, ugliest dwarf in the bar - and win. Which means the city guard is about as threatening as a set of bowling pins, and you don't have to take their riffraff when they show up to break up the bar fight. By morning you've razed the town to the ground and the GM is staring off into space while everyone else at the table gets more chips.
I wouldn't want to play it, but I wholeheartedly support it for those that do. I may try an E20 thing when my Shackled City gets there.::jaw drops::
That is gorgeous. That has me rethinking my entire plan for my upcoming campaign.
Yay for E20. After playing 3.0 to 39th level (in the case of one Drow elven Rogue/Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage/Arcane Lord.....I know...) we haven't managed more than a couple half-hearted games with our most beloved epic heroes since late 2003.
Recently though, I was talking with a friend about E6 and how it worked, and he goes, "What about E20". I was stunned. It's so easy. All the game shattering math just goes away. It's beautiful.
We have decided to allow characters to keep gaining levels in classes, with a max of 20th for base classes, and 10th for prestige. No ability (sneak attack, spell casting, turning, attack bonus, nothing) can have more than 20 levels of "effect". No matter what combo of classes you have, you take your 'best 20' for all categories, including hit points and saves.
So, I have a Cavalier20/Fighter13 that I've been playing off and on since 1987. But in actual, practical power he is about CR24!
A cool side effect is that you can mash PCs and NPCs together with some level disparity, because the 'limit 20' rule evens them out quite a bit.
-Cheers
I can see why you would be bored. It's also why high level play tends to get problematic if you insist on the whole "slay the dragon" again routine once you hit double digits. Any plot that relies on a single encounter or outcome is going to get destroyed the second it meets the players.
See my other posts. That's why we had the FTL sailing ship. The GM set us up as a D&D version of the Green Lantern Corps. We were the defenders of the galaxy, and he'd pit us against some awesome super-villain on some planet that was raping and pillaging willy-nilly. We'd fly in and save the day.
Now the GM was very imaginative. He made up some really crazy things for us to fight. My ranger died twice, and was cast into the void and had to be retrieved by a wish. (Back then dying cost you a point of constitution, so it was a real bummer).
We weren't fighting an endless parade of dragons. Especially not after we slew an army of dragons on our home planet. We were fighting Nazi versions of Superman, or planet-spanning slimes, or interstellar super beings...
I appreciated the effort he put in, but man, another day of kicking God's ass again? Booooring.
It was boring because be it dragon, god or something else that is being thrown at you, that scenario is far too common in high level play. It involves single encounters that are loosely tied together by the plot. It doesn't work. Encounters have to be tied together. The goal has to shift from "do we succeed?" to "how well do we succeed and how does our actions effect the rest of the world?" The insanity with the magic items didn't help any either.
EDIT: If he had explored the ramifications of destroying that much evil instead of looking for the next god to kill, it would probably have been a much more enjoyable experience.
The insanity with the magic items didn't help any either.
The best thing about that whole campaign is that it broke me of loot-greed forever. Geez, I'll never have that collection of awesomeness again, and you know what? I actually prefer it that way.
I suppose if the GM had developed some sort of galaxy wide plot that we were pursuing, that might have at least made the sessions less of a combat exercise, but fundamentally it just wasn't D&D anymore. It was something else. The magic wasn't even magic, we just did crazy stuff. My ranger could shoot bolts of blue energy out of his sword that would split a moon in half.
(Yeah, I know... "that's no moon. That's a space station!")
That was actually the last session we had. With nothing else to challenge us with, the GM had us go up against a Gamma World technology based world where we were pitting magic against lasers and nuclear weapons.
At that point the players just told the GM we wanted to play D&D again.
the inability of the GM to handle high levels, because it is terrified of what PC are capable and do not know what to doI give this attempt at a troll a 4/10. While the insulting broadside at anyone who doesn't like high level play does a good job of inspiring a heated response, the generally poor grammar and lack of clarity force the reader to puzzle out what you've just said, which has a cooling effect on the temper.
You should have said "The problem with high level play is the inability of some GMs to handle it, because they are terrified of what the PCs are capable of and does not know what to do in response."
That would have done a much better job of communicating your point (that GMs who don't like high level play are incompetent cowards engaging in badwrongfun). Which would have been a really awesome troll. You totally would have got me, that's for sure.
As it is however, I'm going to go work on tweaking the base classes so they all have a 7th level capstone ability and then start thinking about how I'm going to convert the last three parts of Kingmaker to E7 play.
I'm sorry but I'm not trying to be a troll but English is not my primary language
"The problem with high level play is the inability of some GMs to handle it, because they are terrified of what the PCs are capable of and does not know what to do in response."
that's what I was trying to say
Things that make mid/high-level unplayable:
4.) Railroaded plots. ... No time for crafting, buying, selling, sleeping, or any of that "normal" stuff. The GM runs a tight ship.
Interestingly, my experience is exactly the opposite. Problem is: GM gives a quest (Go to the Cerulean Sea and find the lost civilization of Atlantis), player immediately goes Greater Teleport: I'm here, want a souvenir? (substitute Greater Teleport for any of your favored tactics, such as scry'n'fry, find the path and most divination spells, etc)
Almost all objectives are hastily achievable with a lotta spells, and PCs can generally solve one by day. There are little to no downtimes, since if the GM hands any quest, they can probably solve it in one day or two. I converted a 13th level 3.5 campaign to 4e and the wizard player told me: Thank God, I was about to get Greater Teleport.
The PCs are the one who runs a tight ship. You give them an objective, it's generally done in under a week. Try DMing a high-level campaign and leaving your players without ANY goals whatsoever.
Interestingly, my experience is exactly the opposite. Problem is: GM gives a quest (Go to the Cerulean Sea and find the lost civilization of Atlantis), player immediately goes Greater Teleport: I'm here, want a souvenir? (substitute Greater Teleport for any of your favored tactics, such as scry'n'fry, find the path and most divination spells, etc)
Taken from Greater Teleport spell (emphasis mine):
In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location.
Somewhere in the Cerulean Sea is not a reliable description, and while divination magic could be used to a point, chances are, if it was really that simple, it would probably have already been done. Same goes for most such tactics, such as scry and fry, and divination spells in general. If the task is really that simple, it probably would have been done already, so the fact that it hasn't indicates that the task is going to be a bit more complicated than simply casting a few spells and being done in a few days. It takes a bit more prep work for the DM to setup something logical, but that is where two of the points I made earlier comes into play: lay the groundwork early and take the time to actually read the spells. If you already have a list of potential sites, NPCS, and potential plot hooks around them, it is a lot easier than realizing at level 12/15/16/17 that the game has changed and I need something challenging, but still logical, by tomorrow. Also, if you read the spell and power descriptions as they come up, along with other relevant sections of the rules, making notes along the way, countering such tactics isn't all that hard. The key is you have to prepare from the very start. If you try to make something like that up at level 12 with no advance work, it's too late.
Kyuss could have easily mazed the fighter out. No save for that spell. He can gate in CR 20+ backup if needed. I agree that martial characters do a lot of damage, but I would not have Kyuss sitting in one spot so he could do that much damage.So did they start out 5 feet apart or what?
I disagree completely. In Age of Worms adventure path that i converted to PF, do you know who killed kyuss? The fighter who got smite evil from the paladin. He did a full attack and did more then 600 points of damage. Martial characters can obliterate as well as spellcasters...Proof against teleportation or similar things can shut down Maze, and Maze might potentially keep even a fighter for one round.
He's gotta get the Gate off to bring the creatures in...
And Age of Worms is 3.5, not hard to get Pounce then from bunches of sources. Even if it's round 1, they moved up on the suprise round, and the paladin went before the fighter with his aura up, the fighter is still going to get to go.==Aelryinth
They said the paladin let the fighter use his smite so that lends to PF rules, but there is a caveat if you run the battle as written that would allow the fighter to be right beside Kyuss before he even got to do anything about it.
I don't think 12+ is problem but at around 16th level things can really go sideways with casters. In particular Cleric and Druids. Wizards seem to be too easy to stop. At least that is my experience, it's pretty easy to shut down a wizard with CR 17 and 18 encounters but Clerics not so much. Even easier to shut down a fighter.How are you shutting down wizards and sorcerers at level 16? At those levels they generally do what they want to do.
PS:I am assuming you have a player that has a good selection of spells that can be used in a variety of situations, and knows when to use them.
PS:This is not a challenge, just a question.
It's not hard to do, I just build the right adventure with the right encounters. By shutting a wizard down I mean shutting them down from ruining the adventure. I've had many experience in the past where a wizard just took the game apart making the adventure kind of pointless. It takes knowing you players well and knowing the spells. I just imagine what I'd do if I were wizard in my game and look what things would ruin the adventure. Then I prepare for that. If I was playing a wizard and I could cast 3 spells at the start of an adventure hook that would take me to the BBEG and allow me to play the I win card then that is something I prepare to block. That's shutting down the Wizard.
Fighters are easy to shut down. I've had games where the fighter ended the adventure before it begun too by going on killing spree and with out knowing killed BBEG. It's much easier to fix that so that doesn't happen than trying to anticipate every move wizard might make to do the same thing.
That is not what I call shutting down, but I do understand what you were saying and I agree with it.
People talk about the GM "knowing the rules" and "being familiar with counters" and I'm sorry, but I'm going to call foul.
It's not just individual spells that are at issue, but their synergy (it's why it's called "scry and fry" afterall).
I am not convinced that the GMs on this thread have contemplated every synergy between the various spells in the Ultimate Magic, plus Core, plus whatever 3PP or campaign-specific stuff that's being used. That's too many spells, too many class abilities, etc to keep track of how they all might interact. And problem is, the 30 INT, five-thousand year-old Red Dragon the party is up against: he does know all those synergies and counters, at least in-game. Problem is, I'm his GM, I only have so much time to prep an encounter, not to mention his lair/backstory and other non-combat elements of the session. While at the same time, I have a handful of PCs pooling all their prep-time browsing through d20pfsrd looking for broken combos. I can't compete with that. And telling me that I should is just rediculous.
And then after they past him in one beautifically executed round, they ask "why didn't Mr Ancient Supergenious Dragon think of that, it could have been totally undone by X, Y and Z spells? They've been around since the founding of Thassalon." and then I throw the book at them, which was printed last month (considerably more recently than Thassalon's founding) and we're back to playing E6.
When I was playing 3.5 I knew just about every combination that could give me issues. The only reason I don't know the APG and UM as well is because I don't play or GM nearly as much since life has interfered. It is definitely possible to shut down auto-win situations, barring a nat 1. I even knew the silly combos from the FR books, and I never even play in FR. It helped when players tried to bring "splitting" and spellfire or whatever it is called to the table. People with no life and/or a good memory can learn a lot of things.
As to your last point knowing how to stop basic high level tactics is what I think the point was, not advanced things.
Responsibility.
The problem with high level campaigns is often tied to to the 'all care, no responsibility' mentality of most of the characters.
I have found this to be less of a problem where the players are responsible folks and not just independently wealthy adventurers living a carefree lifestyle.
As they are levelling up, start granting them cursed blessings... minor titles, landholdings etc. This starts to increase the number of things the players have to worry about, and allows for a lot of adventure hooks - they hae a duty to look after 'plothook'.
Similarly, they can be called upon by those above them to lend aid, or to help ward off mutiny/rebellion/overthrow. Clerics, Paladins, and Inquisitors are already tied to a heirarchy, and the other classes lend themselves to a myriad of other ideas... high level Rogues should be pushed into forming Guilds (which mean they need to protect them)
Scale.
Scale and responsibility.
Then the BBEG's can similarly bring scale... rival guilds, invading armies, Papal overthrow, mutiny, etc etc.
It stops being about 'Team Awesome' of five people, and becomes a game of influence.
I would turn those cursed blessings down because I would see the trouble in advance, and so would my players. I have had players that like to be in charge, but most of the characters they play just want to take care of the supreme evil and be retire. If it works for a group though it would not even be seen as a cursed blessing because they would enjoy such things.
PS:I still don't see how this impacts the issues with high level play though.
"Unplayable" is definitely not the right word. "Difficult" suits it better.
Statblocks get huge. It's hard to keep track of what characters can do and use all of their options.
Player characters get powerful. Entire plots can be solved with a single action. DMs have to keep in mind the many powerful abilities their players have access to.
Combat can take even longer to resolve. More attacks, more interrupt options, more defenses, more characters, all add to the time it takes to resolve turns. Inexperienced players make this even worse.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Prepare for a bunch of responses along the lines of "I've never had that problem" and "If your group was like mine you wouldn't think that way".
I agree almost completely, I just don't think player characters get too powerful.
For example: I wrote down around 15 full attack options for my paladin and his evil outsider bane weapon (to hit/damage) and how they are affected by varying combinations of spells, divine weapon bond (a handful of different options in itself) and smite evil.
This gives me a good basis, but it is still only the tip of the iceberg. I also might be affected/buffed by the spells/ablilities of our oracle, wizard and my cohort cleric. Often there are negative status effects from enemy spellcasters or supernatural monsters. A lot of calcuation which certainly takes some time.
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I personally am the same way, though I would probably limit the sources initially just because I'd rather find appropriate places for the rest in the world that I would be creating and using additional sources to help make the different regions feel different. But those who are overly worried about potential combinations and than allow massive amounts of material need to understand that they are the source of their own headaches.That's why you are careful about what sources and materials you use. If you allow all possibly compatible sources with no screening, you deserve what you get. You may not be able to predict every combination, but most of the major ones have clear warning signs.*shrug*
I allow every single official WoTC and Paizo printed book in my campaign.
Sure, there's killer combinations - but all that does is, really, give the party a higher effective level. So the stuff they can deal with is just harder.
I don't have a big problem with any of it except a few corner cases that I've noted elsewhere. Overall, I think it gives a lot of options and I think that's a good thing.
And if they find something cool and they one-shot an encounter ... so what? If it were a 4-hour slot at a con I might be upset. Seeing as it's the sixth year of a long running campaign, I don't really have an issue with it.
Mixing WOTC 3.5 stuff with Pathfinder stuff without screening is a very bad idea.
Too many game mechanics, feats and spells have been changed.You can add selected pieces of one to the other, but with a lot of caution.
Pro-memory: when adding a long post to an already existing one always copy it with CTRL-C before posting it. :(