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I think as more characters start to enter the upper tier ranges, I think it would be a good idea to have a listing of the situations in which you would need a Resurrection (aka Raise Dead and Breath of Life are not options). This might be good FAQ material whenever that rolls out because it lines out what you will (potential) have to spend more PA / gp on should you die.
Here are the times I can think of off the top of my head that require a resurrection:
Disintegrate
Circle of Death
Slay Living
Getting raised as undead
Getting body back to a sizable town is longer than the time restriction for Raise Dead
Things I'm not so sure about (do they count as Death Effects?):
Phantasmal Killer
Suffocation
Cloudkill
I will update the list as more get determined to qualify.
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Getting raised as an undead by an NPC is probably not something that a GM should do, except in extreme cases.
And getting raise to undeath by a PC, could be viewed as PvP since it is essentially destroying a character resource...their body.
The description for the various res spells should be clear enough on when a Raise Dead would apply and when you have to upgrade to a Resurrection.
Time being dead is one. Having an unrecoverable body is another.
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Getting raised as an undead by an NPC is probably not something that a GM should do, except in extreme cases.
And getting raise to undeath by a PC, could be viewed as PvP since it is essentially destroying a character resource...their body.
The description for the various res spells should be clear enough on when a Raise Dead would apply and when you have to upgrade to a Resurrection.
Time being dead is one. Having an unrecoverable body is another.
Unless you fight something like a shadow and fail miserably. I wouldn't say that's extreme.
I'd probably rule that character to be evil at that point for doing that to a party member, but that's a subject for an entirely different thread.
I do not the the descriptions are clear enough (look at the 3 listed and then follow the link I posted). It all depends what exact constitutes as a "death attack."
/Part of this was brought up by the fact a person at a table was killed by Phantasmal Killer. The GM ruled that it was a death attack, and therefore a casting of Breath of Life would not work. I think there is sufficient amounts of evidence to the contrary (and some of the wording is atrocious for all that stuff), so I'm hoping to get a ruling to clear that up - hence the posting in the rules forum and posting here.
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/Part of this was brought up by the fact a person at a table was killed by Phantasmal Killer. The GM ruled that it was a death attack, and therefore a casting of Breath of Life would not work. I think there is sufficient amounts of evidence to the contrary (and some of the wording is atrocious for all that stuff), so I'm hoping to get a ruling to clear that up - hence the posting in the rules forum and posting here.
You're right it is kind of vague in the case of Phantasmal Killer. I would say, however, that Phantasmal Killer is a death attack, and probably the lowest level one.
Death Attacks
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
The spell death ward protects against these attacks.
Phantasmal KillerSchool illusion (phantasm) [fear, mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one living creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will disbelief, then Fortitude partial; see text; Spell Resistance yes
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject's subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell's subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage.
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and possesses telepathy or is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.
While Phantasmal Killer does give you the Will save first, it is a save or die Fort save in the end. The will save merely makes it very hard to use on someone. It is an instant attack, even with both saves. In the end it looks to be that pesky Will save that really raise the question.
Either way, I'm curious as my secondary character is being built to be a Phantasmal Killer machine.
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comments in line
I think as more characters start to enter the upper tier ranges, I think it would be a good idea to have a listing of the situations in which you would need a Resurrection (aka Raise Dead and Breath of Life are not options). This might be good FAQ material whenever that rolls out because it lines out what you will (potential) have to spend more PA / gp on should you die.
Here are the times I can think of off the top of my head that require a resurrection:
Disintegrate
RD doesn't work due to a distinct lack of a body after the fact.
Circle of Death
School necromancy [death];
Finger of Death
School necromancy [death];
Slay Living
School necromancy [death];
Getting raised as undead
Getting body back to a sizable town is longer than the time restriction for Raise DeadThings I'm not so sure about (do they count as Death Effects?):
Phantasmal Killer
School illusion (phantasm) [fear, mind-affecting]
imo this isn't a death effect.No [death] in the descriptor
Suffocation
Necromancy, but no [death] in the descriptor.
You die from 'natural' causes [ie - lack of air]Cloudkill
School conjuration (creation)
An extremely virulent poison, but again lacks the [death] descriptor
I will update the list as more get determined to qualify.
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stuff
While I will agree that spells with the death descriptor can be death attacks, they are not the only things that qualify as death attacks.
The definition in the PRD I linked earlier seems to indicate instantaneous effects that allow for a Fort save or death.
The general description of Phantasmal Killer in the PRD seems to support it being a death attack.
Phantasmal Killer: This is the lowest-level spell that can directly kill a creature, but allows two saves to resist it.
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stuffWhile I will agree that spells with the death descriptor can be death attacks, they are not the only things that qualify as death attacks.
The definition in the PRD I linked earlier seems to indicate instantaneous effects that allow for a Fort save or death.
The general description of Phantasmal Killer in the PRD seems to support it being a death attack.
Phantasmal Killer: This is the lowest-level spell that can directly kill a creature, but allows two saves to resist it.
If the spell doesn't have [Death] it's not a death effect. That's it. Phantasmal Killer is not a death effect, no way, no how.
Just because something is save or die does not make that thing a death effect. All death effects are save or die, the reverse does not hold true.
Look at Deadly Performance, the bard ability. It calls itself out as a death effect. This is the precedent you look at. If it does not explicitly say it's a death effect, it's not. A GM ruling otherwise is wrong. In my mind this trumps rule 0, as it carries to other tables.
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stuffWhile I will agree that spells with the death descriptor can be death attacks, they are not the only things that qualify as death attacks.
The definition in the PRD I linked earlier seems to indicate instantaneous effects that allow for a Fort save or death.
The general description of Phantasmal Killer in the PRD seems to support it being a death attack.
Phantasmal Killer: This is the lowest-level spell that can directly kill a creature, but allows two saves to resist it.
If the spell doesn't have [Death] it's not a death effect. That's it. Phantasmal Killer is not a death effect, no way, no how.
Just because something is save or die does not make that thing a death effect. All death effects are save or die, the reverse does not hold true.
Look at Deadly Performance, the bard ability. It calls itself out as a death effect. This is the precedent you look at. If it does not explicitly say it's a death effect, it's not. A GM ruling otherwise is wrong. In my mind this trumps rule 0, as it carries to other tables.
And I would say that not all death attacks have the death descriptor. Nothing in the definition of the descriptor says that these are the only spells that count as death attacks. In fact there are things like the Death Attack of the Assassin that count as death attacks and your own example. I would argue that Save or Die are, by definition, death attacks.
The definition of Death Attack seems a bit broader than you describe it. I'm willing to accept a ruling either way.
Regardless, it is a pretty scummy thing to use in a PFS scenario. I certainly would avoid it as a GM unless the tactics specifically call for it.
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And I would say that not all death attacks have the death descriptor. Nothing in the definition of the descriptor says that these are the only spells that count as death attacks. In fact there are things like the Death Attack of the Assassin that count as death attacks and your own example. I would argue that Save or Die are, by definition, death attacks.The definition of Death Attack seems a bit broader than you describe it. I'm willing to accept a ruling either way.
Regardless, it is a pretty scummy thing to use in a PFS scenario. I certainly would avoid it as a GM unless the tactics specifically call for it.
Nope. Assassin's Death Attack is not a Death Effect. Otherwise True Death makes no sense. My interpretation is the only one that allows that ability to do something. You say "the book doesn't say that all death effects are listed." I say it doesn't need to. It did that by listing it for some and not for others.
Deadly performance: Death Effect
Quivering Palm: Not
Phantasmal Killer: Not
Slay Living: Death Effect
Expressio Unius. The fact it was called out means it only applies to those who call it out. Any GM asking you to spend 32 PA to fix a failed save on phantasmal killer is wrong in a way that goes beyond in-scenario.
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And I would say that not all death attacks have the death descriptor. Nothing in the definition of the descriptor says that these are the only spells that count as death attacks. In fact there are things like the Death Attack of the Assassin that count as death attacks and your own example. I would argue that Save or Die are, by definition, death attacks.The definition of Death Attack seems a bit broader than you describe it. I'm willing to accept a ruling either way.
Regardless, it is a pretty scummy thing to use in a PFS scenario. I certainly would avoid it as a GM unless the tactics specifically call for it.
Nope. Assassin's Death Attack is not a Death Effect. Otherwise True Death makes no sense. My interpretation is the only one that allows that ability to do something. You say "the book doesn't say that all death effects are listed." I say it doesn't need to. It did that by listing it for some and not for others.
Deadly performance: Death Effect
Quivering Palm: NotPhantasmal Killer: Not
Slay Living: Death EffectExpressio Unius. The fact it was called out means it only applies to those who call it out. Any GM asking you to spend 32 PA to fix a failed save on phantasmal killer is wrong in a way that goes beyond in-scenario.
Interesting info.
I'm hoping Joseph's post in the rules section get a response from Jason or the like. I can certainly see someone ruling either way.
I've disliked Save or Die spells since their creation. I think their cheap ways of trying to accomplish what you normally cannot. (yes, I realize the hipocrisy in saying that when I'm creating a phantasmal killer build) I find them rather heinous in OP, and as I said above, simply would not used them unless the mod specifically told me to. The loss of Raise Dead from a 7th level NPC who used it on them seems ultra-cheap. You could be facing these at levl 4 with literally no way to get the character back which should always be an option, even if it is a highly unlikely one.
Joseph, did you run into this in a mod? If so which one?
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i would hate to be the subject of a phantasmal killer while under the effects of a Witch's misfortune hex.
Toss in a rod of Persistent Spell (or just use the feat)... roll 2 saves take the lowest. If you succeed, roll 2 saves and take the lowest again.
Great fun for all. And by "all" I mean "the witch"
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i would hate to be the subject of a phantasmal killer while under the effects of a Witch's misfortune hex.Toss in a rod of Persistent Spell (or just use the feat)... roll 2 saves take the lowest. If you succeed, roll 2 saves and take the lowest again.
Great fun for all. And by "all" I mean "the witch"
Make the Phantasmal Killer cast by a gnome illusionist with a an 18 Int and Greater Spell Focus and you're also talking a DC of 22
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Now the interesting thing, and the thing that I think stopped breath of life was not that phantasmal killer was a death effect, but that because it's an instant kill, there's no negative hp to raise them up. Someone dead by a save or die spell is at -infinity, or at least that was the understanding at the table at the time.
Since I'm the one who dropped the phantasmal killer in question. Just being clear. To be fair, I wasn't sure myself precisely how they interacted, so I did ask another GM for a second opinion.
But the Breath of Life wasn't stopped from PK being a death effect. Pretty clear where I stand on that one, heh.
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Now the interesting thing, and the thing that I think stopped breath of life was not that phantasmal killer was a death effect, but that because it's an instant kill, there's no negative hp to raise them up. Someone dead by a save or die spell is at -infinity, or at least that was the understanding at the table at the time.
Since I'm the one who dropped the phantasmal killer in question. Just being clear. To be fair, I wasn't sure myself precisely how they interacted, so I did ask another GM for a second opinion.
But the Breath of Life wasn't stopped from PK being a death effect. Pretty clear where I stand on that one, heh.
That's actually the second thing that has been niggling at me on this.
If PK is not a death attack, either you would go up from -CON or from the hp you were at at the time of death I would think.
EDIT: Same question Alorha, was this a mod?
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Now the interesting thing, and the thing that I think stopped breath of life was not that phantasmal killer was a death effect, but that because it's an instant kill, there's no negative hp to raise them up. Someone dead by a save or die spell is at -infinity, or at least that was the understanding at the table at the time.
Since I'm the one who dropped the phantasmal killer in question. Just being clear. To be fair, I wasn't sure myself precisely how they interacted, so I did ask another GM for a second opinion.
But the Breath of Life wasn't stopped from PK being a death effect. Pretty clear where I stand on that one, heh.
That's actually the second thing that has been niggling at me on this.
If PK is not a death attack, either you would go up from -CON or from the hp you were at at the time of death I would think.
It's why I needed a second opinion. It's in one of the grey rules areas. If someone tacked on the little [death] tag I'd know exactly how to deal. Without that tag, save or die is complex in relation to Breath of Life, (and really only Breath of Life). Let me see if I can't find the text that lead to my ruling of other than -con. Said ruling may have been wrong. It's happened.
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I think it goes beyond whatever was decided at a table because it really is inconsistent in the Core. As discussed in the rules forum post, the only other statement used under "Death Attacks" (besides Fort save or die) is the fact that death ward protects against it. But when you look at death ward it says "subject gains a +4 morale bonus on saves against all death spells and magical death effects." Does that mean "magical death effects" constitutes as being a "death attack?" The mind is left to wonder...
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So I've come to believe spells like Suffocation don't count as "death effects" if you assume the [death] descriptor is necessary. I think when they kill you, they just drop your HP down to your negative Con score. But that's still in a huge, undefined gray area.
The negative infinity damage might be a holdover from 3.5, before Pathfinder started putting associated damage dice with some of the save or die spells. That leaves non-[death] descriptors with an open definition.
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So I've come to believe spells like Suffocation don't count as "death effects" if you assume the [death] descriptor is necessary. I think when they kill you, they just drop your HP down to your negative Con score. But that's still in a huge, undefined gray area.
The negative infinity damage might be a holdover from 3.5, before Pathfinder started putting associated damage dice with some of the save or die spells. That leaves non-[death] descriptors with an open definition.
Yeah, I'm thinking similarly now. In which case you could have Breath of Life'd the rogue. Many apologies. Too many spell mechanics for my addled brain to work out at midnight.