Would i like a level 20+ book
Heck yeah I would
First module? God Maker. Where you go through that accesstion thing that is talked about in Gods and Magic.
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DMchucky and other that are arguing that it costs those of us who do not want more high level support nothing for paizo to publish a high level book (and then continue supporting it) are simply wrong. The Paizo staff does not have infinite time and resources, and thus we are dealing with a zero-sum game.
Any amount of time spent by the Paizo staff working on a "mythic" level book is time they are not spending working on support for the game most people play, therefore it makes perfect sense for those who have no interest in high-level play to agitate against high level rules.
I want paizo to put out products that I have an interest in buying, and I don't want paizo to put out products that won't help me make my campaigns better. Sorry if that ruffles feathers, but don't try and sell people on this nonsense idea that we can all get what we want.
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DMchucky and other that are arguing that it costs those of us who do not want more high level support nothing for paizo to publish a high level book (and then continue supporting it) are simply wrong. The Paizo staff does not have infinite time and resources, and thus we are dealing with a zero-sum game.
Any amount of time spent by the Paizo staff working on a "mythic" level book is time they are not spending working on support for the game most people play, therefore it makes perfect sense for those who have no interest in high-level play to agitate against high level rules.
I want paizo to put out products that I have an interest in buying, and I don't want paizo to put out products that won't help me make my campaigns better. Sorry if that ruffles feathers, but don't try and sell people on this nonsense idea that we can all get what we want.
Well, we should. If my favorite publisher publishes something i don't want to read, will i agonize over it? No. I will wait for them to publish something i would want to read.
I for instance despise psionics. I never use them in any of my games and am a very strong anti-psionics supporter. However, if Paizo asked if people wanted a psionics book and a lot of people said yes, i would not try to prevent that from happening. Not everybody plays as i do. Somebody likes psionics. It is wrong to prevent other people from having fun the way they like just because i selfishly want everything paizo churns out to target me specifically.
Nobody is forcing you to buy those books. Also, you won't die if a book or three that comes out of Paizo does not interest you. Live and let live.
There's also a point where there are no more supplements possible because the only ideas left are "Complete Fishwife," "Complete Book of Planar Lavatories," "Monster Manual 97: Book of Dire Butt Parasites," and "Ultimate Linkboy." Somewhere before those books are on the publishing horizon, I'd like an Epic book myself I reckon.
DMchucky and other that are arguing that it costs those of us who do not want more high level support nothing for paizo to publish a high level book (and then continue supporting it) are simply wrong. The Paizo staff does not have infinite time and resources, and thus we are dealing with a zero-sum game.
Any amount of time spent by the Paizo staff working on a "mythic" level book is time they are not spending working on support for the game most people play, therefore it makes perfect sense for those who have no interest in high-level play to agitate against high level rules.
I want paizo to put out products that I have an interest in buying, and I don't want paizo to put out products that won't help me make my campaigns better. Sorry if that ruffles feathers, but don't try and sell people on this nonsense idea that we can all get what we want.
OK, how about learning a lesson about selfishness, then?
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Will they at least accept the Dreamscarded Press Psionic Unleashed conversion as the psionics book? It is extremely unlikely that Paizo will do psioncs the way 3.5 did, which likely just piss them off even more.
No. While I may not like their decision I kind of respect it. After all their was a lot of bad 3PP stuff during 3.5 run and don't blame them for being cautious about what they purchase now.
Tell them from a guy who likes post-20 and psionics that they are being donkeys.
I have told them about PF now it's up to them to decide if they want to purchase books. I can;t really get too much on their cases about it because I rather not lose players.
Are you following strict PF Society play in your group? If not they need to just get over it. The 3.0 Epic rules (because 3.5 doesn't really cover epic I'd point out) can be made to cover Pathfinder as is. The tell you how to deal with other classes and make Epic progressions for them (which would be all the Pathfinder classes). They will work basically as well for PF as the did for 3.0 and 3.5....
No not using PF society play. When a person is stubborn well not much you can do except recommend them an alternative and let then do what they what with it. It's not that uncommen. The owner of the FLGs in my area has two die hard 3.5 groups who will not touch anything that is not 3.5 in terms of D&D. Then complin when they cannot get missing 3.5 books.
I believe that High-level/Mythic/Epic/20+ support for Pathfinder will be the catalyst for world peace.
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Well, we should. If my favorite publisher publishes something i don't want to read, will i agonize over it? No. I will wait for them to publish something i would want to read.
I for instance despise psionics. I never use them in any of my games and am a very strong anti-psionics supporter. However, if Paizo asked if people wanted a psionics book and a lot of people said yes, i would not try to prevent that from happening. Not everybody plays as i do. Somebody likes psionics. It is wrong to prevent other people from having fun the way they like just because i selfishly want everything paizo churns out to target me specifically.
Nobody is forcing you to buy those books. Also, you won't die if a book or three that comes out of Paizo does not interest you. Live and let live.
I don't begrudge those who want epic rules, the right to argue for their case. Nor do I pass any judgement on those who want such sourcebooks/support even though I dont. In a perfect world Paizo would produce that too and everyone would be happy.
My reason for asking Paizo not to head in that direction is that we don't live in a perfect world and pursuing that line will (almost) necessarily result in less output that I am actually interested in. There is an opportunity cost to every decision they make and I'm expressing my view so that they can set their course with the most information available about what their customers want. After all, if we took your advice to heart then the only forum posts on this topic would be "We want high level sourcebooks" and it would appear to be a unanimous consensus.
I dont think lobbying a company as to how I'd like them to devote their scarce development resources should be taken to mean I think anyone else is wrong. They can argue for what they want and I'll argue for what I want.
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Well, we should....don't try and sell people on this nonsense idea that we can all get what we want.
But we can't. You gotta deal with the reality that is, not the reality that should be.
OK, how about learning a lesson about selfishness, then?
That's a silly argument. You're conflating self-interest with selfishness. I mean really, I could just as easily turn it around on you: I, and many others, have no interest in high level content, but you're being selfish and demanding that paizo expand the game (and then support the expansion) instead of just supporting the game that already exists.
Watch me do it: You're demanding paizo take time away from producing products we can all use (products that support play from levels 1-20), and put that time into products that are only useful for you, and you call me selfish? Hah, it looks like you could learn a lesson yourself.
See? Silly argument.
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It's not a silly argument. Paizo needs to come up with a psionic and epic level books because then the game line will be complete. Everything that 3.5 and 4E can do now PF will be able to do. It's kind of hard to sell PF to someone satisifed with 3.5 when if asked if it can handle psionics and/or high level play. All I can respond is no not right now but you can use someone else sourcebook for psionics and they might get around to doing epic level book in a few years. Some might go for PF many imo will not.
In the end no one is forcong anyone to use any sourcebook that Paizo release. So far beyond the APG, Bestirary 1 and 2, GMG, UM ansd Inner Sea Campaign setting nothing else haas really interested me. I have enough APs and wish they would publish less. Yet the difference between myslef and some other posters is that I'm not going to tell Paizo to stop publishing the APS. In the end some posters imo are incredibly short sighted. It's not just about you but also what will benefit PF as a whole. Having more options that allow every style of play will benefit the game line more than just support for a certain style of play.
But we can't. You gotta deal with the reality that is, not the reality that should be.Well, we should....don't try and sell people on this nonsense idea that we can all get what we want.
Gailbraithe does have a point. Paizo has limited resources, and they can only do so many things at once. However, the way I see it, they're at a crucial point. It's not like there's an unending amount of core rules they can put out, which means they're going to either branch our or stop publishing hardcovers.
After all, the Adventure Paths, Map Packs and Flip Mats are a fixed market. The places they have flexibility are in the core rulebook line, the modules, and the setting and companion books. Thus, in order to publish material for an above-20th-level rule set, they will need to either expand or curtail other endeavors.
Obviously rules are needed first, which means the rulebook line, but then support is needed. The question is, will having above-20th material harm or help their other lines - the module, companion and setting lines?
Clearly this is the crux of the matter - but this also means that it's likely a question of when, not if. It's likely that Pathfinder will run into the same issues 3.5e did - at some point there's only so many sourcebooks and setting books you can publish.
James Jacobs commented on this recently - there will be a crux point at which if they haven't published above-20th rules, it'll be too late. I'm just hoping that their evaluations of the market show that it's more beneficial to do so than to decide not to.
I believe above-20th rules are inevitable - the biggest question will be whether Paizo publishes them or decides not to and we end up with a fragmented group of 3PP rule sets.
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DMchucky and other that are arguing that it costs those of us who do not want more high level support nothing for paizo to publish a high level book (and then continue supporting it) are simply wrong. The Paizo staff does not have infinite time and resources, and thus we are dealing with a zero-sum game.
Any amount of time spent by the Paizo staff working on a "mythic" level book is time they are not spending working on support for the game most people play, therefore it makes perfect sense for those who have no interest in high-level play to agitate against high level rules.
I want paizo to put out products that I have an interest in buying, and I don't want paizo to put out products that won't help me make my campaigns better. Sorry if that ruffles feathers, but don't try and sell people on this nonsense idea that we can all get what we want.
But here's the really cool part. Paizo designs stuff so well, that even if it isn't something I want or care about; it's still worth buying, just to read in the restroom if nothing else. AP's read like a good novel and I imagine most folks here like reading rulebooks in general or they wouldn't be gamers.
Maybe the product would be so intriguing that it might even make a mythic believer out of you. Wow, what a concept. Maybe the reason most folks don't play high-level D&D/Pathfinder is because the rules have sucked sneakers to this point.
Don't be a Debbie Downer.
And let's face it. It isn't a matter of if; it's a matter of when. JJ is obviously a fan of high level play for himself if not his company. The sooner they get the book out, the sooner this vocal "minority" shuts its collective mouth. By the way, I'm not convinced we are a minority; I just don't feel like arguing that point with you.
And finally, you actually are being selfish in your desire for them to not make this product. Just as I am being selfish in my need for them TO make it.
We will not go quietly into the night. We will continue screaming for post-20th level rules, until we get them. So you'd better get some teflon earbuds my friend....
They could......multiclass.
And fight 14th level fire giant sorcerers and stuff...;)
or gread red wyrms with 4 levels of rogue.
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It's not a silly argument. Paizo needs to come up with a psionic and epic level books because then the game line will be complete. Everything that 3.5 and 4E can do now PF will be able to do. It's kind of hard to sell PF to someone satisifed with 3.5 when if asked if it can handle psionics and/or high level play. All I can respond is no not right now but you can use someone else sourcebook for psionics and they might get around to doing epic level book in a few years. Some might go for PF many imo will not.
In the end no one is forcong anyone to use any sourcebook that Paizo release. So far beyond the APG, Bestirary 1 and 2, GMG, UM ansd Inner Sea Campaign setting nothing else haas really interested me. I have enough APs and wish they would publish less. Yet the difference between myslef and some other posters is that I'm not going to tell Paizo to stop publishing the APS. In the end some posters imo are incredibly short sighted. It's not just about you but also what will benefit PF as a whole. Having more options that allow every style of play will benefit the game line more than just support for a certain style of play.
The "silly argument" I was referring to was the argument made by Pale that people who want Paizo to focus their efforts on things other than a high level book are selfish. Which is why my comment was in response to Pale, and not you. See how that works?
In response to your argument, I'd say a few different things:
1) Pathfinder can handle psionics exactly as well as 3.5 does, because the Expanded Psionics Handbook is usable with Pathfinder with a minimum of conversion. Of course, the psionic classes will suck harder in PFRPG than they already do in 3.5, but you can totally use them.
Same goes with High Level Play, except HLP was so poorly supported by WOTC that I'm skeptical of the claim that 3.5 can handle HLP. There was no Epic level support for many (any?) of the classes added later, and there isn't even the possibility of 3PP support for those classes.
2) Things like psionics and HLP can be handled by 3PP, leaving paizo to focus on the core game. There already is a 3PP PFRPG psionics book, Dreamscarred Press's Psionics Unleashed. And frankly, I don't think paizo would be able to improve on it that much, and what improvements they made would certainly be pretty superficial -- better art, better layout, better fluff. But the crunch in Psionics Unleashed is A+. The PU soulknife is seriously badass, exactly what I wanted the 3.5 one to be.
Which is no big shocker, since WOTC never supported psionics beyond the EPH, and anyone who enjoyed using psionics in 3.5 probably alreayd owns a lot of stuff by Dreamscarred, since that's always been the thing they're best known for.
So if you have friends who refuse to switch over to Pathfinder until Pathfinder supports psionics as well as 3.5 does, tell them it already does. If you have friends who refuse to switch Pathfinder until Paizo supports psionics, tell them to stop being so finicky and brand-conscious.
Likewise, a 3PP could easily handle high level play support. And since there are multiple ways to do high level play, it actually makes a lot of sense to leave it to various 3PP to develop competing systems, giving GMs more options. Just like I don't expect paizo to ever support E6 play, but am already thinking about working on an E7 alternative sourcebook.
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But here's the really cool part. Paizo designs stuff so well, that even if it isn't something I want or care about; it's still worth buying, just to read in the restroom if nothing else. AP's read like a good novel and I imagine most folks here like reading rulebooks in general or they wouldn't be gamers.
And you just summed up why I didn't buy a single AP between Rise of the Runelords and Kingmaker, and won't be buying any of them until they do another Kingmaker style sandbox AP. I find them fun to read, but utterly useless as gaming materials -- and $120 is a lot to pay for a story without characters, resolution or snappy dialog. That's actually my biggest complaint about some of paizos stuff (WOTC did this too): a lot of it doesn't feel like it's for gaming, it's for people who read games and think about maybe one day playing them.
Don't be a Debbie Downer.
Don't try to guilt trip me into silence!
By the way, I'm not convinced we are a minority; I just don't feel like arguing that point with you.
::looks around:: Are you talking to me? Because it looks like you're talking to me. But I never claimed you were in the minority. I just think its lame of you to try to guilt trip and insult people into not expressing their opinion because you apparently want it to look like your opinion is held unanimously.
And finally, you actually are being selfish in your desire for them to not make this product. Just as I am being selfish in my need for them TO make it.
Yeah, okay, whatever. If we're both selfish its the same as if we're both not selfish. It cancels out either way. That was my point. Saying I should learn a lesson about selfishness is saying I should shut up, but if everyone is being selfish, then me shutting up only helps you, and you're not going to shut up, so there's no reason I should.
See, this is a SILLY ARGUMENT. It can only ever go around in circles.
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But here's the really cool part. Paizo designs stuff so well, that even if it isn't something I want or care about; it's still worth buying, just to read in the restroom if nothing else. AP's read like a good novel and I imagine most folks here like reading rulebooks in general or they wouldn't be gamers.And you just summed up why I didn't buy a single AP between Rise of the Runelords and Kingmaker, and won't be buying any of them until they do another Kingmaker style sandbox AP. I find them fun to read, but utterly useless as gaming materials -- and $120 is a lot to pay for a story without characters, resolution or snappy dialog. That's actually my biggest complaint about some of paizos stuff (WOTC did this too): a lot of it doesn't feel like it's for gaming, it's for people who read games and think about maybe one day playing them.
That's strange, because I find the Adventure Paths to be like an amalgamation of the Dragon and Dungeon. There's an adventure, sure, but that's slightly more than half of what's in there.
For example, in AP#28, pages 6-55 are the adventure - that's 50 pages out of a 96 page book/magazine. There's also an editorial, an article on possession, some fiction, a campaign article about hellknights, a bestiary, some pregen characters, and a few pages of ads and boilerplate.
I've been a subscriber since day one, and I've yet to ever run an Adventure Path - I run a homebrew campaign. But this is no different than Dungeon before WoTC shot it in the head - I subscribed for years without ever running a game from it, yet I have found it incredibly useful
To me, all of it is inspirational - both the articles and the adventures.
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The thing is Gailbraithe I swithced over to PF because while I liked 4E I missed 3.5. Rather than buy the 3.5 over again I went with PF. And because I wantedf to get more new material. That's just me and not the next guy. Having worked in retail telling someone to buy a product while recommending soneone else product to fill in the missing gaps is not the nest way to sell something. In the case of the 3.5 holdouts they have everything they need. They have no problems playing PF they just do not want to invest in an rpg that requires them to use existing books they already have to fill in the gaps. As one of the put it "why bother switching if I have to use 3.5 books on the first place". Are they possibly being too fussy and stubborn yes. I can;t blame them though. As much as I like PF if I knew that the psionics ansd epic level books would take so long to come out chances are I owuld not have made the switch either. I like my rpgs to be as complete as possible as fast as possible.
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Exactly; the sooner a post 20 book gets put out there, the quicker these "shouting matches" are going to stop (at least on the part of the post 20 supporters, I think; I can't speak for all of them, or for the anti-post 20 level players for that matter).
Yeah, likely story. More like:
And so on it goes forever. Because you guys aren't asking for HLP and no support for it ever again. Are you? No, you want HLP and you want paizo to honor their promise to support extended material. Then again, when you say things like "the piece of crap that was the 3.0 ELH," I rather suspect the conversation will go more like:
I'd like to see some free-for-playtesting 15-20th level APs, before Paizo commits to making any "fast play" changes, let alone epic rules.
PF got playtested for years, and while most here agree that it's a great game, the high levels are a lot of work, however you play them.
That would give us plenty of feedback and ideas for making high-level play more fun and balanced, and maybe a little easier, and set the stage for 21+ rules that work for those who want them.
I'd buy that book.
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The thing is Gailbraithe I swithced over to PF because while I liked 4E I missed 3.5. Rather than buy the 3.5 over again I went with PF. And because I wantedf to get more new material. That's just me and not the next guy. Having worked in retail telling someone to buy a product while recommending soneone else product to fill in the missing gaps is not the nest way to sell something. In the case of the 3.5 holdouts they have everything they need. They have no problems playing PF they just do not want to invest in an rpg that requires them to use existing books they already have to fill in the gaps. As one of the put it "why bother switching if I have to use 3.5 books on the first place". Are they possibly being too fussy and stubborn yes. I can;t blame them though. As much as I like PF if I knew that the psionics ansd epic level books would take so long to come out chances are I owuld not have made the switch either. I like my rpgs to be as complete as possible as fast as possible.
I don't think that's a very reasonable argument, and I don't see any reason why anyone should be sympathetic to it. I mean, no RPG is ever complete. Ever. There hasn't been a game invented yet that couldn't use another supplement.
I don't think most people consider psionics a "missing gap." Psionics was always optional, all the way back to 1E, and was more or less never supported. TSR barely supported it, WOTC flat out didn't support it (just like they never supported anything but SRD Core), and if paizo does publish a psionics book, they'll be hard pressed to support it without annoying the many players and GMs who don't care for psionics -- and while I personally love psionics, I'm not suffering under the delusion that they're broadly popular.
You can sit there and pretend that the Expanded Psionics Handbook was essential to 3.5 in the same way the PHB, DMG and MM were, but that's simply not true by any reasonable standard. If the EPH is essential to your game, then there is Psionics Unleashed.
I can't even figure out what your reasoning is for why Psionics Unleashed isn't good enough. Because it's not paizo? So? Pathfinder is OGL, it's designed to be supported by multiple publishers. What do you have against Dreamscarred Press that you want paizo to publish what will essentially be the same book DP published, thus crushing DP's sales? How do you expect Paizo to make money off psionics when Dreamscarred has already sold most of the people who wanted a PFRPG psionics book the book they wanted? I mean I love psionics, and I really don't see how paizo could top Psionics Unlimited. Nor do I really want them to try.
The same goes for Epic. It wasn't essential to 3.5, and pretending it was isn't going to win you the argument, it's just going to lose you credibility. Right now the Core rules already have rules for going beyond 20th level, so then it becomes a real question of just what exactly do people want in a Epic level book? Do you want a rehash of the Epic Level Handbook, which is regarded as one of the worst books in 3.5?
An Epic level book is going to be real easy to mess up. Read through the threads of what people who like Epic level want and you'll find that you guys don't all want the same thing. Some of you want kingdom building rules and rules for interplanar diplomacy, others want rules for turning Pathfinder characters into Exalted. Paizo should let 3PP develop multiple tracks to support the multiple styles of high level play people want, rather than just rehash the ELH and make something nobody is going to be happy with.
Seriously.. if that's your opinion of the argument people are attempting to make that a 14-20+ themed book would be useful and well received by the player base..
Then you sir cause my faith in humanity to slip slightly.
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Seriously.. if that's your opinion of the argument people are attempting to make that a 14-20+ themed book would be useful and well received by the player base..
Then you sir cause my faith in humanity to slip slightly.
Direct quote from dmchucky: "We will not go quietly into the night. We will continue screaming for post-20th level rules, until we get them. So you'd better get some teflon earbuds my friend...."
Wanna try again? We're not talking about a 14-20 book (that exists, its called the Core Rulebook, it covers levels 1-20), we're talking about paizo's hypothetical take on the ELH. And you can hardly accuse me desparaging anyone who you've got dmchucky and others openly bragging about how they'll "scream" (AGAIN: DIRECT QUOTE) until they get what they want.
It's kind of hard to sell PF to someone satisifed with 3.5
Okay. Why, exactly, is making it easier for you to convince some people who are satisfied with 3.5 to stop playing 3.5 a reason to make people who are satisfied with Pathfinder less satisfied with Pathfinder?
I'd like to see some free-for-playtesting 15-20th level APs, before Paizo commits to making any "fast play" changes, let alone epic rules.
PF got playtested for years, and while most here agree that it's a great game, the high levels are a lot of work, however you play them.
That would give us plenty of feedback and ideas for making high-level play more fun and balanced, and maybe a little easier, and set the stage for 21+ rules that work for those who want them.
I'd buy that book.
I'd support this kind of "compromise step" - partly because it has the added potential to lure some anti-high-level fans to give epic rules another look. (not sure about an AP as such, but a sourcebook followed by a three module arc would be worth a shot, in my opinion.
And I'm asking for the opposite; right now, aside from the upcoming Ultimate Combat, there's nothing else that holds my interest aside from the Core Book, Bestiaries 1 & 2, and the Advanced Player's guide. In fact, that's all we're using to run Pathfinder. I do not, however, oppose your viewpoint for arguing against them. That reasoning I can understand, as opposed to "they'll force me to use those books if they're printed!" mentality.
My reason for asking Paizo not to head in that direction is that we don't live in a perfect world and pursuing that line will (almost) necessarily result in less output that I am actually interested in.
In my opinion this is how these threads should go. I rarely dip my toe in (to ask for high level, but still below twenty material) but when I do, it feels like I'm told to stop trying to ruin everyone else's fun. Which I'm not trying to do - I just see value in arguing for the status quo if you actually do prefer it.
To be completely honest, I'm stunned anyone manages to reach twentieth level anyhow. We've certainly never managed it - so my position isn't even that high level play is wrong/boring/broken/unplayable/unpopular or anything else. It's just irrelevant to me and there's so much more that would have relevance.
It's not like there's an unending amount of core rules they can put out, which means they're going to either branch our or stop publishing hardcovers.
Actually, I may be alone in this, but I actually liked (and used in my campaigns) some of the weird hardcovers WotC put out relatively late in the 3.5/3E development cycle. Like the Tome of Magic. And Magic of Incarnum (ran a game at GenCon once where the main villain was an ormyrr incarnate). I don't really get this about there being no more core rules that can be put out. Sure there are; there's always room for more interesting options.
Then again, since I do seem to be (not entirely but mostly) alone in this, I can see how from the standpoint of company profitability there surely is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to publishing new rulebooks. I personally may have thought Magic of Incarnum was kind of interesting and worth using, but I'm not sure how well it sold.
All of which is tangential to the main point of this thread, but perhaps leads into something that may be more connected: that part about people not wanting to convert to Pathfinder because not everything from 3.5E can be transferred over, and psionics and epic levels will complete the set? No. They won't. There are plenty of other things in 3.5E that don't have Pathfinder equivalents. Like, yeah, the classes from... well, from any book other than the PHB, PH, and ELH. All the Product Identity monsters. The D&D gods. What if a player played a cleric of Pelor, and is upset that Pelor doesn't exist in Golaria? What if a player has a character designed specifically for the Forgotten Realms, or Eberron, and is upset that it can't be converted over? (Actually, that last one is a little less hypothetical and perhaps a bit less frivolous than some of the other things I've listed; I actually have seen posts by people who explicitly listed as a reason they weren't interested in Pathfinder the fact that it didn't have support for the Forgotten Realms or Eberron or other established D&D settings. Which seems like a silly objection to me, but there it is...)
Sure, there's the fact that psionics and epic levels are in the SRD, and therefore could be converted more or less straight over, whereas those other things I mentioned obviously couldn't, since they're not Open Game Content. Still, the fact is that for that very reason Pathfinder can't, even in principle, have a direct equivalent for everything in 3.5E. Say Paizo comes out with a psionics book (which at this point I agree seems kind of redundant, since a perfectly serviceable one already exists from Dreamscarred Press, but let's grant for the sake of argument that Paizo publishes one of its own). So yay, the player who loves playing psychic warriors is happy with Pathfinder now! But uh-oh, what about the player with the warforged character? I just don't get the argument that once Paizo does psionics and high-level play Pathfinder will be "complete" in some important sense. Complete as far as including everything in the SRD, sure, I guess, but to those who want to replicate their direct 3.5 experience, is the distinction between open and closed content really a meaningful one?
I hasten to add that I am not arguing against a Pathfinder Mythic Handbook (or whatever you'd like to call it). In fact, I'd actually like to see such a book myself. But that particular argument for a Mythic Handbook doesn't seem entirely sensible to me.
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Seriously.. if that's your opinion of the argument people are attempting to make that a 14-20+ themed book would be useful and well received by the player base..
Then you sir cause my faith in humanity to slip slightly.
Direct quote from dmchucky: "We will not go quietly into the night. We will continue screaming for post-20th level rules, until we get them. So you'd better get some teflon earbuds my friend...."
Wanna try again? We're not talking about a 14-20 book (that exists, its called the Core Rulebook, it covers levels 1-20), we're talking about paizo's hypothetical take on the ELH. And you can hardly accuse me desparaging anyone who you've got dmchucky and others openly bragging about how they'll "scream" (AGAIN: DIRECT QUOTE) until they get what they want.
I can try to help you find those earbuds at a reasonable discount if you want.
Just wanted you to know that we could stop "screaming" if you would stop trying to be such a roadblock. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but as long as you choose to be so openly against what so many obviously want; you will get major pushback.
Ever go to a casino? Are you familiar with craps? You are like the guy who bets on the "Don't Pass" and "Don't Come" fields. You might make a lot of money betting against the rollers, but don't be surprised if you don't piss a lot of people off in the meantime.
Paizo puts out enough books for everyone to get what they want. What is selfish is to deny any one group their niche product. You say you are doing it for the good of the company. A company that only plays it safe will never prosper; it will merely survive. Paizo took a huge gamble sticking to the 3.5 ruleset; would you have begrudged them for that decision as well?
So keep pushing for the safe path; I just want you to know that I'll be here pushing right back. Earlier you said (I think it was you); may the best man win? This isn't a competition. If Paizo throws the dice and comes up seven; we ALL win. If they crap out; then it's back to the drawing board and no harm, no foul. The entire company's future does NOT hinge on the post-20th level niche. But it could open up a new revenue stream if it is done just right.
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Exactly; the sooner a post 20 book gets put out there, the quicker these "shouting matches" are going to stop (at least on the part of the post 20 supporters, I think; I can't speak for all of them, or for the anti-post 20 level players for that matter).
Really? Because almost everyone at Paizo has expressed that they WILL contain a level cap in their post-20 rules if they put them out. So I give it a couple of months max after they put out a level 21-36 (or whatever) sourcebook before the whole argument crops up again regarding post-36th level play.
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Some people do not use 3PP. I am one of them.
I also do not use 3.5 stuff. I do not want to mix PF with inferior material.
For most of it's existence as a company, Paizo was a 3PP. And there are a few 3PP that are not inferior...in fact, depending on your tastes, there are probably a few that some would consider superior in the areas they focus on. Paizo has expressed that they really aren't all that jazzed about psionics...which leads me to believe that if they did put out a psionics book, it probably wouldn't be as good as Psionics Unleashed.
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To be perfectly honest, I'd suggest a whole number, such as 40, but 36 is fine. We (our table) just wants post 20 play.
1. 36 is a whole number. :P
2. 36 is a good number to stop at for a number of reasons, if you wanted to go beyond 20. It's even divisible by 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, and 18. So for abilities that advance every few levels, it ends nicely.3. 36 also has a history, with BECMI and the Rules Cyclopedia as being the level cap (for humans, at least).
For most of it's existence as a company, Paizo was a 3PP. And there are a few 3PP that are not inferior...in fact, depending on your tastes, there are probably a few that some would consider superior in the areas they focus on. Paizo has expressed that they really aren't all that jazzed about psionics...which leads me to believe that if they did put out a psionics book, it probably wouldn't be as good as Psionics Unleashed.Some people do not use 3PP. I am one of them.
I also do not use 3.5 stuff. I do not want to mix PF with inferior material.
I agree with the chibi tentacle monster here, and what I've been saying off and on. Don't dis-3rd party. This is a mistake born on the glut of crap that was spawned in the early days of 3.0. While there was crap there was also amazing products vastly superior to 1st party, especially near then end of the 3.5 (points to d20 Modern/Future books by GameMechanics). As Kthulhu points out Pathifnder begin as a 3rd party Adventure Path set and campaign, so good in fact and with such following they could take the risk of keep going on the OGL line solo.
*rant start*
If person likes the changes of Pathfinxr but isnt switching because Paizo hasnt published something yet is, quite frankly, a stick in the mud. Again anything from 3.0 through 3.5 can be used in Pathfinder with slight oversight. Just 3.0 can be used in 3.5. I'd bet these hold outs were the same kind of people who chucked out all their 3.0 books because 3.5 changed things.
Yes, I'd look at a 3rd party Epic/Mythic/God book. It'll likely take a 3rd party to support it with adventures anyways. I'd be happy if Paizo did for the official nood so morons didn't geek about it not being "official" but at the same time they are proving to be less then important in the grand scheme of Pathfinder.
*rant done*
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I'd be content with 5-10 more levels. Every so often a game might push a little beyond 20 before being ready to wrap up and I could see doing a God-Slayer one shot from time to time. The one thing I don't want to see out of 20+ play is new magic rules or 10th+ level spells. Don't re-write the game just for a few higher levels of play. Caster progression should cap at 20.
Paizo puts out enough books for everyone to get what they want. What is selfish is to deny any one group their niche product. You say you are doing it for the good of the company. A company that only plays it safe will never prosper; it will merely survive. Paizo took a huge gamble sticking to the 3.5 ruleset; would you have begrudged them for that decision as well?
This is what I was mainly trying to say in my earlier posts. We all have received plenty of 1-20 content. Which like everyone, I have been very appreciative of. I have bought the supplements of APG, Ultimate Magic and plan on buying Ultimate Combat.
I don't even think we (who want post 20th content) are being selfish in asking for it. If we do receive mythic level supplements, I really do not feel it will ever be to the extent of information for 1-20, even if it takes off. I agree, it is more niche, but we are just asking for at least 'one' book. Where 1-20 has numerous books for options. If you don't receive 1, 2 or even 3 books due to mythic content, is that really being selfish on our part?
I view selfish as in wishing/not allowing ANY content of a certain category.
Earlier you said (I think it was you); may the best man win? This isn't a competition. If Paizo throws the dice and comes up seven; we ALL win. If they crap out; then it's back to the drawing board and no harm, no foul. The entire company's future does NOT hinge on the post-20th level niche. But it could open up a new revenue stream if it is done just right.
That actually was somebody else who said that. But also what I was trying to say earlier, this is not a competition.
If you are unbending and expect 'every' book Paizo publishes to suit you only, then yes, I guess it is a competition to you. But as dmchucky said, Paizo puts out enough books for everyone to get what they want. So why do you have to wish/insisnt for one (or a few books) that might not suit you not to be published?
Exactly; the sooner a post 20 book gets put out there, the quicker these "shouting matches" are going to stop (at least on the part of the post 20 supporters, I think; I can't speak for all of them, or for the anti-post 20 level players for that matter).Really? Because almost everyone at Paizo has expressed that they WILL contain a level cap in their post-20 rules if they put them out. So I give it a couple of months max after they put out a level 21-36 (or whatever) sourcebook before the whole argument crops up again regarding post-36th level play.
I think you're both correct and incorrect.
Paizo, while they are putting out a general rule set, focus that rule set very closely on their campaign world of Golarion. To have above-20 material that makes sense for Golarion, they need to have a limit on what character levels are in order to make things like demon princes, etc. make sense. Thus, there will be a level cap.
However, I fully expect the general rules, just like the core rulebook, to have a little section talking about "beyond 36th level" just like the core rules talk about beyond 20th level.
I seriously doubt that they'll have some kind of 4e-style End Of The Line for 36th-level characters any more than there's an enforced retirement of 20th-level characters in the current system.
And as far as 3PP material goes, I'm one of those that doesn't use it. Because our current campaign has been beyond the pale for so long I've brought in a total of five extra books, most of them primarily for extra monsters and templates: Necromancer's Tome of Horrors I and II, Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary, Mongoose's Epic Monsters, and Craig Cochrane's epic bestiary.
When the next campaign starts, it will be Paizo books only; there are dozens of them now, and by that time we'll be looking at well over a hundred companions, setting books, rulebooks and adventure paths; I'll have no interest in opening the door to hundreds more 3PP items (though Tome of Horrors will be an exception, and if Green Ronin every updates Advanced Bestiary, I'll use that too).
If (and I'm hoping 'when') Paizo releases above-20 rules, those will be 'the' rules for high level play, whereas any 3PP rules are just one interpretation.
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However, I fully expect the general rules, just like the core rulebook, to have a little section talking about "beyond 36th level" just like the core rules talk about beyond 20th level.
As would I. But you'll notice the existence of that section has done nothing about the "shouting match" for level 21+ play. What makes you think copy-pasting it and replacing the numeral 20 with 36 would prevent THAT "shouting match" ?
I keep reading this thread and wondering if the DMs y'all have played with have tried to put the 'epic' into the normal progression.
I mean, i can legitimately (without a new system) make a Barbarian hold off a horde of orcs without introducing any new systems or complexities, and do it at level 5... This game is plenty epic without going beyond 20th level.
Barbarian standing at the center of the World Wound slaughtering Balors and their minions like they were orcs while the party casters struggle against cosmic forces to seal the World Wound if not permeantly then for millennium.
That's Epic we are talking about.
Yes it's just bigger giant robots still fighting big robot enemies (see Gurren Lagann as analogy to Pathfinder and Epic play), but it's fun to throw galaxies at the BBEG instead of big rocks.
"Mythic" level rulebook for levels 20+..... not that interested.
High level super modules (AP book length +) ..... interested.
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Just wanted you to know that we could stop "screaming" if you would stop trying to be such a roadblock. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but as long as you choose to be so openly against what so many obviously want; you will get major pushback.
All I've done in this thread is say I'm not interested in a Epic Level Handbook for Pathfinder, and especially don't want it supported in every book that comes out afterwards (since eventually that turns into a LOT of material I'm buying that is useless to me), and that I think that's better handled by 3PP. And I've pointed out that some of the arguments that people are using for an ELH are baseless and silly.
And your response? To threaten to scream at me forever, until I shut up and you get your way. Which is what most people call "having a temper tantrum."
Are you six years old? No? Then stop acting like it. Maybe you don't realize this chucky, but this is the internet. You can't actually scream at me. I can ignore you rather easily, and if you insist on presenting your argument as "agree with me or I'll have another temper tantrum" then the only thing you're accomplishing is making your side look really foolish and childish.
Is that really your goal here? To convince everyone that Epic level play only appeals to temper-tantrum throwing little crybabies?
Paizo puts out enough books for everyone to get what they want. What is selfish is to deny any one group their niche product.
Oh, so then you think that paizo should put out an E7 sourcebook, and provide continued support for E7 play? I mean, that would make it much easier on me, since if I want an E7 sourcebook, I pretty much have to write it myself.
You think that every new bestiary should have about a third the number of monsters, with standard, mythic and E7 versions?
You think that when they get around to the Advanced Player's Guide 2 and add new base classes, those classes should come in standard, mythic and E7 versions?
Except some people might want E10 or E12, so paizo should support that to. Right? Is that your argument?
Because that can't happen.
Don't sit there and say that everyone should get their niche product, when what you really mean is "I should get my niche product, and I'll throw a temper-tantrum until I do."
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I would like more support for higher level content (12 to 20). Modules, At least one AP that goes all the way to 20, and a "Guide to High Level Play" book. I'd like for that "Guide" book to include at least one section (1/3 of the book) on Mythic (20+) levels. To support that, I would like to see a couple modules, and maybe one AP that goes past level 20.
Until that happens, I'm going to be content with what I have, and make up rules if need be. My players and I are eager for HLP/Mythic, but are content with rolling dice and making stuff up.