In my opinion, there is a pretty strong liklihood that these departures mean something is amiss, beyond just the 'normal' WOTC layoff cycle.
What?! Take your HATE-FILLED BILE(tm) somewhere else!
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I think we're done with the hate-filled bile jokes now.
10-4. Just trying to derail the edition war. I should have just said...smurf.
Well, Gen Con is about 6 weeks away. Let's see what WotC announces relating to the D&D RPG at that time...
I'll bet D&D will be much ado about board games (which are apparently more successful for them than the RPG itself.).
Chief Technical Officer
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Well, Gen Con is about 6 weeks away. Let's see what WotC announces relating to the D&D RPG at that time...
I'll bet D&D will be much ado about board games (which are apparently more successful for them than the RPG itself.).
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Wizards has generally shifted big D&D announcements from Gen Con to the D&D Experience.
That is another avenue I considered, in regards to 4E stopping at essentials, but continue to release board games and/or card supplements, and then make a major push for VTT. If the game does evolve, it would focus on digital content. It goes in line with sustained profit margins and protecting intellectual property. I wouldn't be adversed to such a model, because I have friends that play all over the place, including out of state. But they can't repeat past mistakes in regards to the character builder, etc.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Wizards has generally shifted big D&D announcements from Gen Con to the D&D Experience.
Well, they've said they're doing so -- most recently right before I went to D&D XP in 2007, in fact. Of course, they announced nothing at XP, but 4E at Gen Con later that year.
My money is on some sort of big D&D announcement at this year's Gen Con...
As opposed to the "hatefilled bile" you're apparently comfortable directing at anyone who dares speculate what the lay-offs mean?
I've directed nothing of the sort to anyone. If you've taken umbrage from my post, um....tough? It wasn't meant to be as such but whatever, don't really care. And up until your post, the thread was actually going quite well in the speculation department and keeping the Evil Empire spiel practically non-existant.
Anyway, as discussed on another thread, Pathfinder may well be outselling D&D at this point. The fact that this is even in question is more than enough reason for heads to roll at WotC. Not to take anything away from Paizo, because they've been doing a fantastic job, but let's face it: Things wouldn't be where they are today if WotC hadn't screwed the pooch.
I'd love to see what your facts have been based upon or what led you to this conclusion. Unless it's pure opinion and yet more speculation, which is all fine and dandy. But I think the community is better served if you state it's your opinion or provide the link that says it is fact.
(Pretty sure this is what bugleyman is referring to, anyway.)
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And this one a little lower down:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/general/plansForPathfi nderComputerGame&page=2#89
Scott is totally right here. Pathfinder has surpassed D&D in most of the markets that I check.
Thanks for ninja'ing me Scott!
You're welcome!
To be clear, though, you're saying that it's your belief that the Pathfinder brand has a higher sales volume than the D&D brand?
At this time in history, that is what I have been told by people in the hobby distribution trade, the book trade, and other avenues that both games sell their products into. If you talk to the various retailers, it is a mixed bag, with one telling you one thing and another a different story. But when you talk to the folks who sell those retailers the product that they sell, then you get a clearer picture.
And I am just talking table-top RPG business. I am not talking about board games or card games or video games or whatnot. Just books and digital copies of those books for use in playing a table-top RPG.
-Lisa
At this time in history, that is what I have been told by people in the hobby distribution trade, the book trade, and other avenues that both games sell their products into. If you talk to the various retailers, it is a mixed bag, with one telling you one thing and another a different story. But when you talk to the folks who sell those retailers the product that they sell, then you get a clearer picture.
And I am just talking table-top RPG business. I am not talking about board games or card games or video games or whatnot. Just books and digital copies of those books for use in playing a table-top RPG.
-Lisa
Hmmmmm, I wonder if they include DDI subscriptions in with that total? I don't think WotC offers PDF versions of the books so maybe those numbers are different when you factor in WotC subscribers? I also don't have the ability to talk directly with folks who sell to retailers nor does the public have access to the finance reports and all that stuff, so who knows how reliable that information is?
My point, however, is that I don't think we can get a clear picture how WotC D&D is doing based on how/when they layoff people. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture, to be sure, but it doesn't say Doom and Gloom directly to me either.
My point, however, is that I don't think we can get a clear picture how WotC D&D is doing based on how/when they layoff people. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture, to be sure, but it doesn't say Doom and Gloom directly to me either.
That's true, but the fact that at least in the traditional market, WoTC & D&D has some serious competition, something neither has really had to deal with before, is probably a factor in the high turnover we see as they've tried to find and solidify their best chance for success.
Also as I understand it, the offline character builder was terminated. So that's no longer a factor. WOTC terminated it because they were find that people were terminating their DDI subscriptions and only reupping once every three months or so to download new material.
The bit that got me on that subject was the fact that they seemed to imply that the customers who were doing that were somehow abusing the system when the system seemed to be setup to if not encourage, at least support, such behavior. If they had simply said, this isn't working as we had expected it to, and we need to make certain changes to keep it sustainable, instead of giving ammo to their detractors, the transition probably would have been barely noticed by non-subscribers.
That's true, but the fact that at least in the traditional market, WoTC & D&D has some serious competition, something neither has really had to deal with before, is probably a factor in the high turnover we see as they've tried to find and solidify their best chance for success.My point, however, is that I don't think we can get a clear picture how WotC D&D is doing based on how/when they layoff people. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture, to be sure, but it doesn't say Doom and Gloom directly to me either.
Uh, no.
D&D's "serious competition" is D&D. Pathfinder isn't a separate game like Vampire was.
That's true, but the fact that at least in the traditional market, WoTC & D&D has some serious competition, something neither has really had to deal with before, is probably a factor in the high turnover we see as they've tried to find and solidify their best chance for success.My point, however, is that I don't think we can get a clear picture how WotC D&D is doing based on how/when they layoff people. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture, to be sure, but it doesn't say Doom and Gloom directly to me either.
Uh, no.
D&D's "serious competition" is D&D. Pathfinder isn't a separate game like Vampire was.
I am willing to agree that for most players the distinction between "D&D" and "Pathfinder" tends to be in name only. I can guarantee that neither WoTC nor Paizo hold that light of a view. In their eyes, the other is definitely not their product, and therefore is a competitor, albeit a more or less "friendly" competitor, going after the same market.
At this time in history, that is what I have been told by people in the hobby distribution trade, the book trade, and other avenues that both games sell their products into. If you talk to the various retailers, it is a mixed bag, with one telling you one thing and another a different story. But when you talk to the folks who sell those retailers the product that they sell, then you get a clearer picture.
And I am just talking table-top RPG business. I am not talking about board games or card games or video games or whatnot. Just books and digital copies of those books for use in playing a table-top RPG.
-Lisa
Hmmmmm, I wonder if they include DDI subscriptions in with that total? I don't think WotC offers PDF versions of the books so maybe those numbers are different when you factor in WotC subscribers? I also don't have the ability to talk directly with folks who sell to retailers nor does the public have access to the finance reports and all that stuff, so who knows how reliable that information is?
My point, however, is that I don't think we can get a clear picture how WotC D&D is doing based on how/when they layoff people. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture, to be sure, but it doesn't say Doom and Gloom directly to me either.
DDI is sold directly through WotC correct? I wouldn't think the distribution numbers would include either DDI or Paizo's subscriptions.
DDI is sold directly through WotC correct? I wouldn't think the distribution numbers would include either DDI or Paizo's subscriptions.
I agree, but Paizo does sell their material through PDFs. Someting Lisa says is a factor in distribution sales and so forth. WotC has no PDF sales, but any DDI subscriber can obtain the information in those books through other means such as the CB, the Compendium, etc. thus eliminating the need for PDF copies. This, I feel, might distort the facts on how much one is selling versus another
I agree, but Paizo does sell their material through PDFs. Someting Lisa says is a factor in distribution sales and so forth. WotC has no PDF sales, but any DDI subscriber can obtain the information in those books through other means such as the CB, the Compendium, etc. thus eliminating the need for PDF copies. This, I feel, might distort the facts on how much one is selling versus anotherDDI is sold directly through WotC correct? I wouldn't think the distribution numbers would include either DDI or Paizo's subscriptions.
Of course I have no idea how you count DDI. It is clearly income for WotC, but it isn't really a sale of anything physical, it is more like renting access.
Also I am pretty sure since Lisa was talking about distributors, so the people that Paizo and WotC sell to that then sell to the stores, it wouldn't include anything Paizo or WotC sells direct to the customer.
DDI is sold directly through WotC correct? I wouldn't think the distribution numbers would include either DDI or Paizo's subscriptions.
Presumably, however, Lisa has access to Paizo's own subscription numbers, but not WotC's. We have a rough idea of how many DDI subscribers WotC has; the DDI group on their online community has over 56,000 members, and you have to have a subscription to join. You also have to have used the forums to show up on that group, so the real number is likely higher.
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Yes it is... it's a different property owned by a separate company that's effectively a competitor to WOTC. It has close roots to D&D but as of APG, and UM/UC it's now a game in it's own right.
That's like saying 4e after the PHB2 was no longer 4e.
But, yeah, the fact that Paizo is a competitor to WotC was the point. Paizo is competing against D&D with D&D-plus-some-new-stuff.
The bit that got me on that subject was the fact that they seemed to imply that the customers who were doing that were somehow abusing the system when the system seemed to be setup to if not encourage, at least support, such behavior. If they had simply said, this isn't working as we had expected it to, and we need to make certain changes to keep it sustainable, instead of giving ammo to their detractors, the transition probably would have been barely noticed by non-subscribers.
I'm near certain that WotC said no such thing. In fact they really did not address the issue one way or another and instead aimed their marketing at just how wonderful in the cloud gaming would be and all the benefits one would get from it.
Any hoopla over the idea that WotC had to make such a move because of subscriber behaviour did not, I'm reasonably certain, come from WotC itself but from people like me who made such statements in message boards as part of threads like this one where people where speculating on why they made the changes.
Yes it is... it's a different property owned by a separate company that's effectively a competitor to WOTC. It has close roots to D&D but as of APG, and UM/UC it's now a game in it's own right.That's like saying 4e after the PHB2 was no longer 4e.
But, yeah, the fact that Paizo is a competitor to WotC was the point. Paizo is competing against D&D with D&D-plus-some-new-stuff.
Are we talking about Pathfinder's roots in 3e as "D&D's competition", or Pathfinder versus D&D + DDI, etc? Sorry, I'm late to the conversation. Just trying to figure out the "D&D is D&D's competition" thing.
If it's the prior, then I'm not sure how Pathfinder + 3e would be a combination competitor, since 3e is no longer published. Disregard if I missed the point entirely, kinda skimming fast on my lunch break.
My biggest problem with the idea of the DDI is what if the ever end it and site goes away? I can't download the content anymore so I don't have anything for what I paid for it. Don't get me wrong I love the idea of the online tools and having access to every book they produce in them. But it is possible (however not likely any time soon) that I could spend hundreds of dollars on stuff I lose if it were to ever stop.
My point, however, is that I don't think we can get a clear picture how WotC D&D is doing based on how/when they layoff people. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture, to be sure, but it doesn't say Doom and Gloom directly to me either.
Well done!
You see, it is possible (and productive) to state your opinion without resorting to insulting those who do not share it. People may even pay more attention...
My biggest problem with the idea of the DDI is what if the ever end it and site goes away? I can't download the content anymore so I don't have anything for what I paid for it. Don't get me wrong I love the idea of the online tools and having access to every book they produce in them. But it is possible (however not likely any time soon) that I could spend hundreds of dollars on stuff I lose if it were to ever stop.Well, all the magazines remain available for download, so those are retained. Any characters you've created and printed out are there as well. I do get the concern, to an extent... but you aren't really spending hundreds of dollars for something, you are spending a few dollars at a time to gain these services... for a time.
If you rent a car for a month, at the end of the month, you didn't spend that money for nothing, even if you have nothing to show for it - you spent the money to use the car for the month, and presumably got use out of it. Same goes with DDI.
Now, I can see the argument for the desire to have an alternative that was a permanent acquisition. Which we have, largely, in the form of the books.
Part of the concern too is that when they do a 5th edition (not saying anytime soon, but we all know they will eventually), can I still use the 4th edition tools? Does it immediately switch to 5th and then I can't use them? Do they some how convert the 4e stuff to 5e?
Part of the concern too is that when they do a 5th edition (not saying anytime soon, but we all know they will eventually), can I still use the 4th edition tools? Does it immediately switch to 5th and then I can't use them? Do they some how convert the 4e stuff to 5e?
Good question. I'll just say this, we all saw what happened to the PDF's of previous editions, so it doesn't bode well. Given their Iron Curtain position on anything that came before 4e, I seriously doubt you'd have any ongoing support for what will then be considered a "previous edition."
Seeing as how this is still many years off, we'll never know for sure until it gets here. Heck, maybe they'll have a change of heart and keep support for it running. It'd be a good move on their part if they did.
To be fair, it should be noted that Wizards still keeps a large archive of 3.5 material available.
Part of the concern too is that when they do a 5th edition (not saying anytime soon, but we all know they will eventually), can I still use the 4th edition tools? Does it immediately switch to 5th and then I can't use them? Do they some how convert the 4e stuff to 5e?Good question. I'll just say this, we all saw what happened to the PDF's of previous editions, so it doesn't bode well. Given their Iron Curtain position on anything that came before 4e, I seriously doubt you'd have any ongoing support for what will then be considered a "previous edition."
Pages of random articles and dead links don't really compare to complete PDF books.
Part of the concern too is that when they do a 5th edition (not saying anytime soon, but we all know they will eventually), can I still use the 4th edition tools? Does it immediately switch to 5th and then I can't use them? Do they some how convert the 4e stuff to 5e?
And this is exactly why "cloud" based applications suck.
(Of course, to be fair, applications that require online activation really aren't much better.)
Pages of random articles and dead links don't really compare to complete PDF books.
Yup.
More stuff becomes unavailable seemingly daily.
Who's "we"?Presumably, however, Lisa has access to Paizo's own subscription numbers, but not WotC's. We have a rough idea of how many DDI subscribers WotC has...
We, as unconnected fans without access to insider information.
Was this unclear?
That is another avenue I considered, in regards to 4E stopping at essentials, but continue to release board games and/or card supplements, and then make a major push for VTT. If the game does evolve, it would focus on digital content. It goes in line with sustained profit margins and protecting intellectual property. I wouldn't be adversed to such a model, because I have friends that play all over the place, including out of state. But they can't repeat past mistakes in regards to the character builder, etc.
Some of the problem with hoping they don't repeat past mistakes is that we don't necessarily agree on what is and is not a mistake. Lets take the recent heavy errata of the Templar (PHB1 Cleric). There was a bit of a hue and cry with that but I personally loved that they would do this. We get better balanced more refined classes with better balanced more refined powers that work with the system as a whole in a more unified manner. However that is largely because I'm very happy with the idea that the game is in perpetual evolution and that all parts of it are open to constant improvement. I want to be playing a game where, when I start a new campaign for example, I am not just playing with one that has more options then the last campaign I began but where all the parts have been improved in order to work better since the last time I started a campaign. A game, in other words, that is being technically improved upon all the time so that I get a better more refined product each time I sit down and particularly where, when considered over a span of years I have a noticeably improved product overall.
Personally I hope they choose to eschew the idea of doing a new edition for a long time and just keep improving 4E constantly. I'd happily keep paying my subscription fee for that product, especially with continuing support in the form of adventures and articles and an ever improved suite of online tools to make adventures with or build our characters.
Just to provide more specifics when I state "mistakes" in regards to the character builder, the biggest one was the sudden change in direction, when you consider everyone was waitng for Dark Sun updates, and the standard monthly update during that time. WOTC first stated it would be delayed, and then it got pulled. I won't argue why they wanted to put it online, it was just the PR they used to get there. I sorely miss the offline character builder.
As to the current online model (please correct me if I am wrong), they actually seperated Pre-Essentials 4E, Essentials, and Dark Sun, so you can not draw from all the sources, but must choose one, when creating a character. That baffles me as well.
As to owning the content, they will have to totally win me over on VTT, because I would be willing to pay for the experience, akin to going to the movies. I would love to play with the folks on these boards.
I can't comment on any recent changes, because they lost me after Dark Sun. I still play 4E, and even joined up with Open Design to participate on projects like the Lost City. I even look forward to the new events starting in September, but I will be dismayed if they limit it to essentials classes.
As to the current online model (please correct me if I am wrong), they actually seperated Pre-Essentials 4E, Essentials, and Dark Sun, so you can not draw from all the sources, but must choose one, when creating a character. That baffles me as well.
Actually, this is not quite correct. The options are quick essential, which with a few choices, makes a essential character with only a few choices. D&D Encounters, which adds more essential options. D&D Homebrew, which adds all options, from core to essentials. Forgotten Realms and Eberron, which I really don't know how they differ, but use all options from core and essentials. Dark Sun has no divine power source classes, but allows the choice of non divine essential classes, including Vampire from Heroes of Shadow!
Since I asked the question you can assume, yes.Who's "we"?Presumably, however, Lisa has access to Paizo's own subscription numbers, but not WotC's. We have a rough idea of how many DDI subscribers WotC has...
We, as unconnected fans without access to insider information.
Was this unclear?
Happy to clear that up for you, then. :)
Just to provide more specifics when I state "mistakes" in regards to the character builder, the biggest one was the sudden change in direction, when you consider everyone was waitng for Dark Sun updates, and the standard monthly update during that time. WOTC first stated it would be delayed, and then it got pulled. I won't argue why they wanted to put it online, it was just the PR they used to get there. I sorely miss the offline character builder.
As to the current online model (please correct me if I am wrong), they actually seperated Pre-Essentials 4E, Essentials, and Dark Sun, so you can not draw from all the sources, but must choose one, when creating a character. That baffles me as well.
As others have noted, selecting "Home Game" at the start of the character creation process allows you to choose from the entire breadth of the game's options. This is to distinguish home games from organized play events (like Encounters) or from specific campaign settings (each with a slightly different array of options). The Essentials option lets you build a character using only those options available in the Essentials line. This can be helpful for new players who don't want to be overwhelmed with unfamiliar options while they're still learning the game, or for players in "Essentials-only" games.
As for the VTT and playing with the folk on these boards, a bunch of us did just that a couple months ago - TigerDave ran the game.
Part of the concern too is that when they do a 5th edition (not saying anytime soon, but we all know they will eventually), can I still use the 4th edition tools? Does it immediately switch to 5th and then I can't use them? Do they some how convert the 4e stuff to 5e?
That is kinda similar to the current crapstorm Apple just created by releasing Final Cut X: 1) it's missing several important features from the previous release, 2) it has no backward compatibility, 3) Apple immediately stopped selling the old version (including site licenses), and 4) there was no advance warning to users that any of this was coming.
I know WotC isn't Apple, but I remember the next-to-no warning when the PDFs were yanked...
Edit: And a couple years ago, Microsoft stopped supporting music files purchased through MSN Music. There was several months advance warning though.
Yes it is... it's a different property owned by a separate company that's effectively a competitor to WOTC. It has close roots to D&D but as of APG, and UM/UC it's now a game in it's own right.
Ok.
D&D's serious competition is D&D...and some splats.
Look I get the rah rah we love Paizo and hate WotC, but at the end of the day, Pathfinder is - by design - 90%+ 3.5. It is, as I have labeled it, 3.55. Again, this is by design. It's not exactly a huge shock to say this when it's more or less printed in your core book to begin with.
Also, the other thing to note is that WotC has as of late cut back on how many products they're putting on the market, which would lead to a decrease in the pure number of sales.