None that I can really foresee IMO. This economy has stunk for the past 3 years (since prior to 4E's release) so I'm suprised 4E is doing as good as it is with the large unemployment rates and drastic savings people are doing. And I don't see it really getting that much better either.
Anything else is pure speculation that WotC is failing or other non-sense meant only to douse WotC and D&D 4E with more hatefilled bile. Honestly, I'm sorta sick of the constant bickering and arguing about the subject. People leave companies ALL. THE. TIME. So why is there such as HUGE uproar about this? Because the community is rather small in numbers yet strong in communication so it spreads like wild-fire. And of course people's bias about specific editions comes into play and yet more useless edition-wars spread.
None that I can really foresee IMO. This economy has stunk for the past 3 years (since prior to 4E's release) so I'm suprised 4E is doing as good as it is with the large unemployment rates and drastic savings people are doing. And I don't see it really getting that much better either.
Anything else is pure speculation that WotC is failing or other non-sense meant only to douse WotC and D&D 4E with more hatefilled bile. Honestly, I'm sorta sick of the constant bickering and arguing about the subject. People leave companies ALL. THE. TIME. So why is there such as HUGE uproar about this? Because the community is rather small in numbers yet strong in communication so it spreads like wild-fire. And of course people's bias about specific editions comes into play and yet more useless edition-wars spread.
For me the question is since they laid off 3 people (that I am aware of)from what has become a small department (they moved half over to the team that is making the boardgames and such last year) what are their plans for the RPG division. No I don't believe 4e is coming, or that WotC is going under. Just curious to see where they are going.
--even hookers and porn stars are making less money these days. I, for one, had to get a day job, and that saddens me.
Which movies were you in?
1. The only "announcement" of layoffs I've seen so far was from an ICv2 article who listed their source as "ENWorld." Seriously? Perusing ENWorld, all I've seen was a few threads full of speculation and the usual "hur hur! 4e falez i new it! o look D&D iz ded." I knew ICv2 wasn't big on doing any real research or responsible journalism, but citing a forum as your information source is... sad.
I saw it posted by several people who had worked with those laid off Owen Stephens, I thought Monte Cook said something somewhere, there was another one on twitter.
2. The only thing I've seen from the latest bunch of folks to leave WotC is that they were leaving of their own accord, in direct conflict with the "layoff" theory.
Everyone of them made the statement that it was a layoff.
3. As mentioned, the economy is in generally rough shape, not just in the US, but worldwide. Expenditures on 'entertainment goods' generally take the hardest hit--even hookers and porn stars are making less money these days. I, for one, had to get a day job, and that saddens me.
No argument there.
4. RPG companies in general, and WotC in specific have a pretty high turnover rate. If you take a job at WotC, you do so knowing that it's likely temporary, whether you want it to be or not.
However in this case it was people who had been with the company for a very long time, which maybe why they were chosen.
It is anyones guess at this point, if the layoffs point to a larger problem, a change in direction, or balancing the budget. All I can hope is whoever it affects finds new employment. I can understand the blood in the water reaction to those that oppose 4E, it is just the level some individuals can take it that seems disturbing.
I do believe this is an appropriate time to make yourself heard if you would like 4E to continue.
I am gonna need links on this from the actual people involved. ^_^ Not saying it's not... just saying Bill said otherwise initially and I like Bill. Gonna miss the hell out of him. *sniffle*
I will do some hunting and see what I can find, it looks like Monte's tweet is missing now, so who knows maybe it was there were going to be layoffs and those three choose to leave instead so others didn't have to.
Either way jobs were getting cut for some reason. I do wish them all well either way, and am curious what the plan is for the future.
I would expect at least some change in direction, if for no other reason than those are some fairly important positions, and the chances of someone new coming in and not wanting to make the position their own is very small. That change could be as minor as worrying more about errata than Dragon articles or as big as the start of a new edition, with the most likely outcome being somewhere in the middle. Noticable changes in focus, but not something that is going to be particularly surprising or earth shattering in its significance.
Some kind of change is inevitable when, for whatever reason, you have to fill that many key spots at once. The question is how much of the inevitable change will be visible to those not directly involved in the day to day workings of WOTC. I'm inclined to think that to those who care to look, the changes will be quite visible, but to those who didn't know or care who filled those roles before won't notice anything different or care if they do notice.
Some kind of change is inevitable when, for whatever reason, you have to fill that many key spots at once. The question is how much of the inevitable change will be visible to those not directly involved in the day to day workings of WOTC. I'm inclined to think that to those who care to look, the changes will be quite visible, but to those who didn't know or care who filled those roles before won't notice anything different or care if they do notice.
There is a reasonable chance that the changes might be mostly noticeable to the internal staff and not so much new staff if it turns out that the slot is being filled by moving people up the ranks. I also suspect that one reason WotC lays people off is partly to help create that movement. I recall looking at a website called...I believe...Glassdoor, which pretty much just looked at various corporations in the area and past and present employees might make comments on what it was like working there. Something that stood out for me in the comments was that a number of people, when commenting on WotC made statements along the lines if "Getting promotions is impossible in this company - you have to practically wait for some one to die."
From this I draw the inference that, we as gamers, think of WotC as firing people left right and centre its not really all that dramatic when one compares to to the corporate world in general. WotC has, according to the same website, 3000 employees. Obviously we only hear about big name lay offs but one does get the impression that there are a lot of people there and some significant turn over is essentially expected in that sort of environment.
Which movies were you in?--even hookers and porn stars are making less money these days. I, for one, had to get a day job, and that saddens me.
Lol. I totally spewed coffee every where after reading this.
I don't think it's flaming, hateful or bileful to note that there are an awful lot of 4th Ed books out there that people are not buying. It's simple observation.
When I go into my FLGS, I see four large shelves packed tight with more books than I, or probably the average gamer, would ever need. Week after week, the same books sit there, not moving. The same FLGS stocks only a handful of Pathfinder, and week after week those are gone, then replenished.
I am perfectly willing to accept that so much unopened WoTC stuff came from a desire to keep their employees employed. Maybe they didn't want to lay anybody off, so they kept making stuff until they created a glut. But for whatever reason, they did create a glut that seems to be undesirable to buyers for one reason or another. People are complicated. The reason it doesn't move could be as complex as bad or superfluous content, or it could be as simple as the fact that people tend not to buy a thing if they suspect nobody else is buying it (the too-well-stocked = no new sales phenomenon). I happen to have much first-hand experience with the latter phenomenon, so I know it is real.
It is a simple fact that if you spend a lot of money making things, then cannot sell all of those things, you are going to lose money. And when money is lost, people get laid off.
This is my layman's opinion of what might be happening, based on simple observations made a couple days a week for many months. Whether it sounds hateful, I think, is on the reader.
The point I was trying to make is that just because it's not immediately visible, it doesn't mean no change. While in most cases, they are equivalently the same to the customer, it is important to keep in mind that there is a difference because when it does come up, it usually means very big changes that will have significant effects on the customer.
I don't think it's flaming, hateful or bileful to note that there are an awful lot of 4th Ed books out there that people are not buying. It's simple observation.
When I go into my FLGS, I see four large shelves packed tight with more books than I, or probably the average gamer, would ever need. Week after week, the same books sit there, not moving. The same FLGS stocks only a handful of Pathfinder, and week after week those are gone, then replenished.
I am perfectly willing to accept that so much unopened WoTC stuff came from a desire to keep their employees employed. Maybe they didn't want to lay anybody off, so they kept making stuff until they created a glut. But for whatever reason, they did create a glut that seems to be undesirable to buyers for one reason or another. People are complicated. The reason it doesn't move could be as complex as bad or superfluous content, or it could be as simple as the fact that people tend not to buy a thing if they suspect nobody else is buying it (the too-well-stocked = no new sales phenomenon). I happen to have much first-hand experience with the latter phenomenon, so I know it is real.
It is a simple fact that if you spend a lot of money making things, then cannot sell all of those things, you are going to lose money. And when money is lost, people get laid off.
This is my layman's opinion of what might be happening, based on simple observations made a couple days a week for many months. Whether it sounds hateful, I think, is on the reader.
It doesnt sound hateful to me, but it does sound anecdotal. My local store stocks a little bit of other RPGS (including PF) which sit there for ages. The 4th edition stuff moves relatively swiftly and is continually restocked. I think it's impossible to draw any conclusions from even half a dozen such observations, especially if they're all from the same geographical area.
It seems to me that, if WoTC really have 3000 employees (I can't believe that, personally), then 4th edition must be selling a healthy number of units (whether online or in hardcover) or we'd have read about far more savage layoffs than just three people.
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Seems to me like it could be sort of a big deal.
Bill was the creative director, Michele Carter was the managing editor and Shoe was the lead d&d developer / designer. It's similar ish to if Paizo laid off (or if they quit):
Creative Director: James Jacobs
Lead Designer: Jason Bulmahn
Managing Editor: F. Wesley Schneider
Or it could just be the yearly turn over.
Or it could just be the yearly turn over.
I don't think it's yearly turn over, since Bill has been there for SUCH a long time. I think Bill has put his 2-cents into the current line of D&D and maybe he doesn't feel his contributions will make a significant impact. So he's heading for other pastures with differences and tastes. That seems to be what he was referring to in his initial "Good-Bye" letter. And it's my impression that most people who go out that way are leaving a mutal partnership with no hard feelings and a hardy farewell.
I hope Bill does create other games and gaming supplements and generes and all that, which would pull in yet more people into the Hobby at large. I've yet to see a really fun Horror-style RP game that wasn't based on Vampires and Werewolves in some boring, Twilight/Anne Rice style, way. Or even a good Future-based RPG that's not Star Wars. I love Star Wars and more importantly SW:Saga but I need something new, seriously.
Anyways, the point I'm attempting to get across is that I don't think Bills leaving is any significant factor or pointer that WotC and D&D-4E is on some downward spiral or on its way out the door.
I saw it posted by several people who had worked with those laid off Owen Stephens, I thought Monte Cook said something somewhere, there was another one on twitter.I'm not a big Twit, so I don't really pay much attention there.
I do know Bill had posted that he was leaving, and doing so on his own terms. I haven't seen anything from his wife--and that link you posted isn't working for me at the moment, but that may have more to do with me being at work than the link being bad.
Everyone of them made the statement that it was a layoff.I am gonna need links on this from the actual people involved. ^_^ Not saying it's not... just saying Bill said otherwise initially and I like Bill. Gonna miss the hell out of him. *sniffle*
However in this case it was people who had been with the company for a very long time, which maybe why they were chosen.Possibly. Frankly, if they were layoffs, several of the folks were high enough up in a position (Mr. Slavicsek, most notably) that they actually likely had a say in who was going, and chose to replace themselves rather than stay on. Frankly, I figured either he and his wife had chosen to take early retirement, or perhaps had left to pursue work on a Star Wars related project.
The links to the to relative tweets that said there were layoffs (not necessarily Bill's but the others) are in this THREAD .
I think that these layoffs are coming at the end of the fiscal year (June into July) aren't really a surprise. It seems that WOTC lays off people every year at least and people who work for WOTC know to expect these layoffs.
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I saw it posted by several people who had worked with those laid off Owen Stephens, I thought Monte Cook said something somewhere, there was another one on twitter.I'm not a big Twit, so I don't really pay much attention there.
I do know Bill had posted that he was leaving, and doing so on his own terms. I haven't seen anything from his wife--and that link you posted isn't working for me at the moment, but that may have more to do with me being at work than the link being bad.
Everyone of them made the statement that it was a layoff.I am gonna need links on this from the actual people involved. ^_^ Not saying it's not... just saying Bill said otherwise initially and I like Bill. Gonna miss the hell out of him. *sniffle*
However in this case it was people who had been with the company for a very long time, which maybe why they were chosen.Possibly. Frankly, if they were layoffs, several of the folks were high enough up in a position (Mr. Slavicsek, most notably) that they actually likely had a say in who was going, and chose to replace themselves rather than stay on. Frankly, I figured either he and his wife had chosen to take early retirement, or perhaps had left to pursue work on a Star Wars related project.The links to the to relative tweets that said there were layoffs (not necessarily Bill's but the others) are in this THREAD .
I think that these layoffs are coming at the end of the fiscal year (June into July) aren't really a surprise. It seems that WOTC lays off people every year at least and people who work for WOTC know to expect these layoffs.
WOTC's year end is in December.
WOTC's...I saw it posted by several people who had worked with those laid off Owen Stephens, I thought Monte Cook said something somewhere, there was another one on twitter.I'm not a big Twit, so I don't really pay much attention there.
I do know Bill had posted that he was leaving, and doing so on his own terms. I haven't seen anything from his wife--and that link you posted isn't working for me at the moment, but that may have more to do with me being at work than the link being bad.
Everyone of them made the statement that it was a layoff.I am gonna need links on this from the actual people involved. ^_^ Not saying it's not... just saying Bill said otherwise initially and I like Bill. Gonna miss the hell out of him. *sniffle*
However in this case it was people who had been with the company for a very long time, which maybe why they were chosen.Possibly. Frankly, if they were layoffs, several of the folks were high enough up in a position (Mr. Slavicsek, most notably) that they actually likely had a say in who was going, and chose to replace themselves rather than stay on. Frankly, I figured either he and his wife had chosen to take early retirement, or perhaps had left to pursue work on a Star Wars related project.The links to the to relative tweets that said there were layoffs (not necessarily Bill's but the others) are in this THREAD .
I think that these layoffs are coming at the end of the fiscal year (June into July) aren't really a surprise. It seems that WOTC lays off people every year at least and people who work for WOTC know to expect these layoffs.
My mistake then.
This is my layman's opinion of what might be happening, based on simple observations made a couple days a week for many months. Whether it sounds hateful, I think, is on the reader.
It's not hateful, but it does demonstrate to me (and to others who have noted it above) that you take anecdotal observation ("When I go into my FLGS...") and use that anecdote to spin generalizations ("There are an awful lot of 4th Ed books out there that people are not buying"), and that's something that should be avoided. As has been pointed out, you're just as likely to walk into the next FLGS and find the same situation with Pathfinder sitting idle on the shelves instead of 4e.
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Seems to me like it could be sort of a big deal.
Bill was the creative director, Michele Carter was the managing editor and Shoe was the lead d&d developer / designer. It's similar ish to if Paizo laid off (or if they quit):
Creative Director: James Jacobs
Lead Designer: Jason Bulmahn
Managing Editor: F. Wesley SchneiderOr it could just be the yearly turn over.
In my opinion, there is a pretty strong liklihood that these departures mean something is amiss, beyond just the 'normal' WOTC layoff cycle.
What that something is, I have no idea (I have theories, of course :)
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...Or even a good Future-based RPG that's not Star Wars. I love Star Wars and more importantly SW:Saga but I need something new, seriously...
Two words: ECLIPSE PHASE. It's a far future/post-apocalyptic RPG, based in our own solar system, in which death is a curable disease...your body is broken or destroyed...no problem, just upload a backup of yourself into a new "sleeve". Check it out. It is a hard sci-fi setting, detailed, rich, and completely different enough from other settings as to be original. It's got it's own system, so don't expect more of the same overdone d20 class-level mechanics, it's a percentile roll under skill-based system.
My money is on WotC merging D&D with MTG and producing an "adventure card game", something more along the lines of WFRP 3ed.
Pardon me, I need to get some mouthwash to rinse the bile out of my mouth over that concept. It's bad enough that they've turned DnD into a board game. Take my words with a grain of salt everyone. One gamer's bile is another gamer's FUN - the purpose for taking up this hobby at all.
I would guess that WOTC has one vision for the direction of D&D, and Bill and those who supported his position were asked to leave, or they volunteered. If you are around for 20 years, you will have a strong opinions in regards to what to do next. Or it could be cutting overhead at the top. The ultimate decision maker being sustained profit margins and protecting intellectual property.
I am guessing they are looking at any mechanism to seperate themselves from D20, or the OGL in general. I believe future versions of D&D will show the result of those efforts.
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My money is on WotC merging D&D with MTG and producing an "adventure card game", something more along the lines of WFRP 3ed.Pardon me, I need to get some mouthwash to rinse the bile out of my mouth over that concept. It's bad enough that they've turned DnD into a board game. Take my words with a grain of salt everyone. One gamer's bile is another gamer's FUN - the purpose for taking up this hobby at all.
But wouldn't that make sense? They currently have two design teams which are doing twice the same job, read: coming up with imaginary worlds and rules for a multiplayer game. And both are fantasy!
Merging these, in the current economy and industry situation, sounds like a no-brainer.
I would guess that WOTC has one vision for the direction of D&D, and Bill and those who supported his position were asked to leave, or they volunteered. If you are around for 20 years, you will have a strong opinions in regards to what to do next. Or it could be cutting overhead at the top. The ultimate decision maker being sustained profit margins and protecting intellectual property.
I am guessing they are looking at any mechanism to seperate themselves from D20, or the OGL in general. I believe future versions of D&D will show the result of those efforts.
That's pretty much I'm getting out if this. Some long timers deciding that the direction WoTC wants to go with the game doens't mesh with their's so they parted ways. Not an uncommon occurance, but one that will leave its mark as WoTC is now free to put someone in place who is willing to aggresively push the new desired direction.
I am guessing they are looking at any mechanism to seperate themselves from D20, or the OGL in general. I believe future versions of D&D will show the result of those efforts.
Maybe but they still have Mike Mearls and he has even more influence in direction of the company takes toward D&D with Bill Slavicek moving on. The guy is a huge fan of BECMI and AD&D...to much so for my tastes actually, but that is neither here or there. My feeling is that Bill Slavicek was actually more open to new directions and ideas then Mike Mearls and what shifts in focus we see from here on in are more likely then not to continue down the path that was being treaded by Essential's...that is more attempts to capture an 'Old School' look and feel for 4E.
All that said I don't really expect much in terms of big moves for the forseeable future. When the crystal ball starts to get really dark is in the lead up to 2014...that is D&Ds 40th anniversary and if there are going to be earthquakes in the D&D brand it will be timed to either be announced then or to take effect then.
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My money is on WotC merging D&D with MTG and producing an "adventure card game", something more along the lines of WFRP 3ed.Would you like to tell everyone what your opinion of WFRP 3e is based on, please? I'm sure it's not just an assessment made in ignorance, or a suggestion that keeping track of information in any way that isn't solely writing it down on paper is automatically Bad Wrong Fun.
If D&D 3E is "adventure pen and paper game" then WFRP3 is "adventure card game", mmmkay? I appreciate your ability at jumping to wild conclusions, tho.
It seems to me that, if WoTC really have 3000 employees (I can't believe that, personally), then 4th edition must be...
Well I went and did more Google Fu and the numbers come back in two batches. Either its a company with 200-500 people (usually listing around 300) or its a company with 3000. I see nothing definitive in either direction but agree that 3000 sure sounds pretty big and maybe either there was an extra 0 put on some form that has now spread false information around the internet to things like job search web sights or maybe Hasbro as a whole has roughly 3000 employees and that number has been whats getting attached to WotC company profiles. Could be some other reason that I have not considered as well...though even 300 people is pretty big and might cause a corporation to occasionally shuffle people off in part just to make it so that the lower ranks know that there is some chance for advancement if they show initiative, good ideas and otherwise try and distinguish themselves from their peers.
Well I went and did more Google Fu and the numbers come back in two batches. Either its a company with 200-500 people (usually listing around 300) or its a company with 3000. I see nothing definitive in either direction but agree that 3000 sure sounds pretty big and maybe either there was an extra 0 put on some form that has now spread false information around the internet to things like job search web sights or maybe Hasbro as a whole has roughly 3000 employees and that number has been whats getting attached to WotC company profiles. Could be some other reason that I have not considered as well...though even 300 people is pretty big and might cause a corporation to occasionally shuffle people off in part just to make it so that the lower ranks know that there is some chance for advancement if they show initiative, good ideas and otherwise try and distinguish themselves from their peers.
It seems to me that, if WoTC really have 3000 employees (I can't believe that, personally), then 4th edition must be...
300 people for all of WoTC would actually be fairly reasonable. I would imagine Magic employs a large chunk of people, and even if 4E hasn't been the runaway sucess 3.x was, I suspect it still employs a lot of people. Then there are the general administrative staff and staff for other projects to consider. All in all, the 200-500 sounds about right. I doubt WoTC has to do much to encourage turnover. In a creative industry, the employees will generally generate that themselves.
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Well I went and did more Google Fu and the numbers come back in two batches. Either its a company with 200-500 people (usually listing around 300) or its a company with 3000. I see nothing definitive in either direction but agree that 3000 sure sounds pretty big and maybe either there was an extra 0 put on some form that has now spread false information around the internet to things like job search web sights or maybe Hasbro as a whole has roughly 3000 employees and that number has been whats getting attached to WotC company profiles. Could be some other reason that I have not considered as well...though even 300 people is pretty big and might cause a corporation to occasionally shuffle people off in part just to make it so that the lower ranks know that there is some chance for advancement if they show initiative, good ideas and otherwise try and distinguish themselves from their peers.
It seems to me that, if WoTC really have 3000 employees (I can't believe that, personally), then 4th edition must be...
The 3000 could be old news from when they had retail stores?
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Keep in mind also that gamers these days are more tight with their wallets and may be spending time pirating those materials as PDFs instead of buying them. Paizo may be doing a better job of locking their materials down than WOTC did. That had having released all of the rules material so far as OGL may have helped. Unlike WOTC, they're less dependent on continued sales of rulebooks, it's the adventures and setting material which seem to be the bread and butter.
Before we go blaming piracy for all the sales shortfalls in modern day publishing and digital entertainment, there's also the fact that a DDi sub gets you a lot of that content for a lot less money. Anyone who has a fully updated version of the offline character and monster builders has pretty much everything but Dark Sun, D&D Essentials, and the new Shadowfell stuff. Current subscribers are getting all that included in their digital tools. Buying hard copies of books like Martial Powers 1 & 2 is sort of silly and redundant if you already have the content from an approved, official source - especially if it's player-oriented content that is integrated into a character builder.
None that I can really foresee IMO. This economy has stunk for the past 3 years (since prior to 4E's release) so I'm suprised 4E is doing as good as it is with the large unemployment rates and drastic savings people are doing. And I don't see it really getting that much better either.
Anything else is pure speculation that WotC is failing or other non-sense meant only to douse WotC and D&D 4E with more hatefilled bile.
Hey, if you didn't want to read idle speculation and armchair quarterbacking, why post this? ;-)
Most business decisions by public companies are made for business reasons. WotC is a subsidiary of Hasbro, and its been what - 11 years now? That's quite a bit different from when WotC acquired TSR. Im sure its complicated.
I think every RPGer owes a big thank you to Ryan Dancey and the OGL (whom I spotted at PaizoCon 2011 but was so rushed that I didnt have a chance to say hi). Because of that, companies can come and go, and run their products into the ground, and we still have the rules to play with.
Senior Software Developer
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Hey, if you didn't want to read idle speculation and armchair quarterbacking, why post this? ;-)
I should clarify that this thread is kind of a weird edge case of bugs. Someone originally posted it, someone else replied, and then the first poster and the first responder both deleted their posts. Diffan didn't actually create this thread, just replied to somebody else's post (which nobody can now see).
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hey, if you didn't want to read idle speculation and armchair quarterbacking, why post this? ;-)I should clarify that this thread is kind of a weird edge case of bugs. Someone originally posted it, someone else replied, and then the first poster and the first responder both deleted their posts. Diffan didn't actually create this thread, just replied to somebody else's post (which nobody can now see).
Plus, the in-flight entertainment was cancelled.
Anything else is pure speculation that WotC is failing or other non-sense meant only to douse WotC and D&D 4E with more hatefilled bile.
As opposed to the "hatefilled bile" you're apparently comfortable directing at anyone who dares speculate what the lay-offs mean?
Anyway, as discussed on another thread, Pathfinder may well be outselling D&D at this point. The fact that this is even in question is more than enough reason for heads to roll at WotC. Not to take anything away from Paizo, because they've been doing a fantastic job, but let's face it: Things wouldn't be where they are today if WotC hadn't screwed the pooch.