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I like ideas involving more classes, more prestige classes, more archetypes, partial gestalt, etc., etc., but I also like simple things. I'd be interested in feedback on this, which is a system to give small bonuses to players for multiclassing. What's below actually involves a lot of bonuses: am I giving too much? Should it be decreased? Any thoughts welcome.
To be clear the issue I see (and am trying to counteract) is that single-classed characters are simply more competent than multiclassed characters, with a widening power gap especially at higher levels.
Upon gaining the indicated level in a class, if you have already attained that level in another class, you gain the listed benefit. Prestige classes do not count for any of these calculations.
1. +1 to the leveling class' ability score
2. +1 to effective level in any one class
3. Bonus feat
4. +1 to effective level in any one class
5. Bonus feat, +1 to the leveling class's ability score
6. +1 to effective level in any one class
7. Bonus feat
8. +1 to effective level in any one class
9. Bonus feat, +1 to the leveling class's ability score
10. Dual focus
+1 to the leveling class's ability score: Each class has an associated ability score. When you attain the indicated level in that class, if you already have that many or more levels in another class, you receive a +1 bonus to that ability score. These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement. The list of classes by class ability score is as follows:
STR - barbarian, fighter
DEX - gunslinger, ninja, rogue
CON - cavalier, ranger, samurai
INT - alchemist, magus, witch, wizard
WIS - cleric, druid, inquisitor, monk
CHA - bard, oracle, paladin, sorcerer, summoner
+1 to effective level in any one class: When you attain the indicated level in a class, if you already have that many or more levels in another class, you add 1 to the effective level of one of your classes for the purposes of determining level-dependent uses per day and effects of class features. This does not grant accelerated access to higher-level features, and it does not improve spellcasting.
Bonus feat: When you attain the indicated level in a class, if you already have that many or more levels in another class, you gain any one feat for which you qualify as a bonus feat.
Dual Focus: When you attain 10th level in a class, if you already have 10 levels in another class, you count your effective class level as 20 for both classes for the purposes of determining level-dependent uses per day and effects of class features. This does not grant accelerated access to higher-level features, and it does not improve spellcasting.
The stat bonuses might make a multiclass character suffer slightly less because of MAD, but are mostly just power creep. The bonus feats are also just power creep unless limited to feats that create synergy between the two classes (like allowing levels in the two classes to stack to determine uses per day of certain abilities).
Dealing with MAD was indeed my hope with that one, though I'm not too disappointed if in the end it was an ill-fated attempt. As for the bonus feats, initially I was planning to limit them to a set list per class but then, well, I got lazy.
The problem with multiclassing is that too many class abilities scale only with class level, but not with character level (if they scale with level at all, which is another part of the problem). Of course this is partly due to the nature of a class based system.
Dual focus and +1 to effective level are the only things that actually help this.
I see your point, but though those are the only things that deal directly with that problem there could theoretically be other bonuses to make up for it.
Does it at least improve caster level? If not then it misses the biggest problem in multiclassing entirely - noting a caster gains is as good as higher level spellcasting. At least caster level would give them something that benefits their spellcasting, even if it's only caster level based variables of low level spells getting boosted.
Martial classes already have the most synergy in multiclassing, this just makes them "more better" at it, while doing little for casters who are generally hosed by multiclassing.
Hmm, yeah, you don't think it'd be 'too good' or whatever to boost caster level?
Or what if instead of separating all your classes' spellcasting, there were some system by which you could combine spellcasting from multiple classes into a kind of one-list, one-daily-allotment kinda thing? I'm going off-topic, though.
Thanks for the input!
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I like ideas involving more classes, more prestige classes, more archetypes, partial gestalt, etc., etc., but I also like simple things. I'd be interested in feedback on this, which is a system to give small bonuses to players for multiclassing. What's below actually involves a lot of bonuses: am I giving too much? Should it be decreased? Any thoughts welcome.
1. +1 to the leveling class' ability score
2. +1 to effective level in any one class
3. Bonus feat
4. +1 to effective level in any one class
5. Bonus feat, +1 to the leveling class's ability score
6. +1 to effective level in any one class
7. Bonus feat
8. +1 to effective level in any one class
9. Bonus feat, +1 to the leveling class's ability score
10. Dual focus
...
The problem I see is that the system encourages early level dipping instead of true multi-classing. Get that early rogue level or two for sneak attack, evasion, skills, and now abilities and then get to 18 in your "real" class.
Honestly, I like the fact that single class builds are rewarded and that core hybrid classes get benefits over multi-class builds.
Personally I have a house rule that multiclassing caster level increases similar to BAB.Full caster grants 1/2
Partial caster 1/3
Non-caster 1/4For example:
A Wizard 4/Cleric 6 would have caster levels of 6/8.
A Wizard 6/Fighter 4 would have a caster level of 7.
A Wizard 6/Ranger 6 would have caster levels of 8/6.(Note: 1/1 is just too good)
I'm misinterpreting this somehow. Here's what I understood:
4 levels of full caster (Wizard) grants +2 CL to cleric and 6 levels of cleric (full caster) grants +3 to wizard. But that would be 7/8. If casters across the arcane/divine divide drop down a level, it works up until Wizard/Ranger, but I don't know why Ranger's caster level didn't change.This looks cool.. I'm just not quite understanding what you mean.
...snip...
Does that make it clear?
Crystal! I'd forgotten about the Ranger thing.
And you actually use that, and nobody complains? I suppose in practice it works best for martial characters who want a dip -- a monk/sorc's mage armor will last a little longer, and so on? Would different non-casting classes stack yielding an extra caster level for say, Fighter2/Wizard2/Thief2? What if it were Paladin2/Wizard2/Thief? Can 2/3+2/4 add up?
The problem I see is that the system encourages early level dipping instead of true multi-classing. Get that early rogue level or two for sneak attack, evasion, skills, and now abilities and then get to 18 in your "real" class.
That wouldn't work. You'd get +1 stat in your "real" class and +1 effective level in either rogue or your "real" class. You wouldn't get anything else because you'd only have two duplicating levels, the first two you took with your "real" class.
For instance, my Arcane Trickster went:
Wiz1
Rogue1 (duplicates, gains 1st level bonus of +1 Dex)
Rogue2
Rogue3
Wiz2 (duplicates, gains 2nd level bonus of +1 effective class)
Wiz3 (duplicates, gains 3rd level bonus of bonus feat)
Whereas a Dragon Disciple might:
Sorc1
Barb1 (duplicates, gains first level bonus of +1 Str)
Barb2
Barb3
Barb4
This system benefits evenly split multi-class characters more than lopsided ones or ones just prestiging out quickly.
Now, I think there's a problem with the effective class thing. First of all, I'm not sure whether things like extra sneak attack, which are listed both as level dependent in the writeup and as new benefits under the Special column. Paladin's smites per day are similar.
Honestly, I like the fact that single class builds are rewarded and that core hybrid classes get benefits over multi-class builds.
Why? (I am seriously not trying to be confrontational.) I'm just curious, because I think that single class builds should be hard to mess up, but not necessarily much more powerful than a reasonably-built multi-class character. Dunno. Modern society already puts us in super specialized boxes -- it feels a shame to do that when we're having fun, too.
No worries about the off-topic stuff -- it's interesting to me and I like reading it -- but I am still interested in feedback on my suggestion ;)
And yes, you could theoretically take Level 1 in every base class, ending up with a build of something like L5 Barbarian / L1 everything else, with +15 to your stats, but your class features would be crap and your BAB would be curled up in a little ball somewhere crying. I don't think this system necessarily encourages the dumbest dipping; the idea is that if you have two or three classes, you get some benefits to make up for the lowered class feature progression.
Test:
When you gain a level in a class that grants access to a new form of spellcasting, you permanently choose which method of spellcasting you prefer (yours or the new one). This works like a ninja/monk deciding which ability score to use for his ki pool. So, select one of the two spellcasting classes' spellcasting. Your spellcasting relies upon that class's casting attribute. If that class prepares spells, you prepare spells. If that class casts spontaneously, you cast spontaneously. You have one caster level, equal to the sum of your caster levels in all spellcasting classes.
You gain new spells known/spells in spellbook/etc. the same as if you had taken the new spellcasting class normally. You gain new spellslots as well, but these are added to your spell slots in previous casting classes: all your slots are in one 'pool'.
You can use your slots to cast any spell you know and are capable of casting at the slot's level.
So a Wizard 5/Cleric 1 can cast all his 1st-level cleric spells in his 1st-level wizard slots as if they were cleric slots. Restrictions on domain and specialist slots remain.
Spell access depends on your level in a class; the Wizard 5/Cleric 1 has access only to L0/L1 cleric spells, not to L3 Cleric spells. He could prepare an L1 Cleric spell with metamagic in a 3rd-level Wizard slot, however.
Thoughts? :)
Edit: The problem I see here is that you could take 19 levels of wizard, then 1 of sorcerer/bard/oracle to make your spellcasting spontaneous... thoughts on how to avoid that elegantly?
Hmm, yeah, you don't think it'd be 'too good' or whatever to boost caster level?Too good? Without gaining more/higher level spells it's still fairly weak.
Here is how I solved multiclassed casters.
Caster Level
Deeply multiclassed characters may add one half of the levels in their other classes for the purpose of calculating caster level. For the purpose of this rule, a character must maintain levels in two or more classes with no more than a two level difference in any of them. For example, a fighter3/wizard4 has a caster level of 5 (4 from wizard +1 from fighter). Similarly, a cleric4/wizard6 has a cleric caster level of 7 (4 from cleric + 3 from wizard) and a wizard caster level of 8 (6 from wizard + 2 from cleric). This rule does not affect spells known or other magic characteristics, only caster level. This relieves some of the hit multi-classing spell casters take.
And you actually use that, and nobody complains?Heh, I suppose I always expect people to complain, especially if there's casters involved. :)
It works best for any multiclass combination that includes a caster class. Pairing 2 full caster classes gives the most synergy, with the farther away you get from full caster resulting in diminishing returns.
This is only fair, since it's casting classes that take the biggest hit.
The problem I see here is that you could take 19 levels of wizard, then 1 of sorcerer/bard/oracle to make your spellcasting spontaneous... thoughts on how to avoid that elegantly?
Couldn't you take the Sorc level first and just not switch your method of spellcasting, while gaining the class abilities and new spells of a wizard?
Taking on spontaneous casting at high level wouldn't be a perfect upgrade from starting as sorcerer -- you've wasted any investment you've made into your spellbook, you've lost out on the opportunity for extra spells known via the human preferred class bonus, your spell slots per day are wizard-based, therefore fewer. Now, going the other direction might be better than starting as a wizard if you made the jump at levels where sorc isn't behind a spell level, since Sorcerers have so many more spell slots and that's what carries over. And Sorcerer->Paladin might be holy crap time.
I like the idea of something a little deeper than Caster Level patches -- although Caster level loss really hurts, losing access to the higher level spells hurts too, especially once magic resistance comes into play.
Multiclassing most of these is still a bad though because spell level doesn't keep pace. They really need either an "any two casting classes" version of mystic theurge or another mechanism for getting access to higher level spell slots.
I was thinking of just allowing increase in spellcasting granted by new classes to be transferred to existing classes; making all classes prestige classes of a sort. Partial spellcasting classes could transfer at 1:2 ratios and non spellcasting classes would transfer at 1:3. Wizard, Sorcerer, and Cleric all have pretty nifty things nowadays, and the only class I really imagine being much of an issue is Druid, who could add full spellcasting to sorc/wizard/cleric plus keep all the nifty druid things.
Totally martial characters could even gain spellcasting at 1:3 (their existing caster level would be 0) but I might limit them to divine spells, possibly just Cure spells.