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I had a similar problem with my GM. He let me play a 10th level magus, but unfortunately in the charcter's first live combat my magus novaed a stone giant and took him down with one intensified shocking grasp crit. After serious negotiations with my GM, I had to nerf my magus and now am doing far less dpr than any of the other melee builds. I basically have to crit to even equal them in a round.

Magi have two nice qualities: spikiness and versatility. True strike isn't a game breaker; it just gives you more versatility with combat maneuvers. You better not be burning a spell a round just to make sure you hit.

Then it must be Rogue Dervish Magus

Throwing in a level or two of rogue types is nice for lots of classes (extra skill options, sneak attack, and evasion), but if you start throwing in too many rogue/ninja levels, then you're really slowing down the already creeping spell progression of the magus; plus you're arcane pool will be too small to be very useful. The problem is that the magus is already a hybrid class . . . .

WalterGM, are you planning on including the new magus arcana from Ultimate Combat in your guide. Just from the little I have seen, don't have the PDF yet, they are better than the ones in UM. If the one line description of "Accurate Strike: make attacks as touch attacks for 1 round" is correct it is beyond blue. Sure it can only be used a couple of times a day but it could change the balance of an encounter. Jaberwock, AC 40, Touch 14, the difference is significant. A spellstrike of Frigid Touch combined with a crit could significantly soften up the jaberwock.

Yes, I'd love to see discussions of these new arcana. Other than the one DougErvin mentions, the others seemed underwhelming. The arcing pool strike feet is interesting, but for two arcana (and 2 pool pts. to cast) I'll still pass. The additional weapon enhancements (ghost touch, holy, etc.) are nice, but only "made available" for the extra cost, so they will eat away at your enhancement points.

Thanks for the quick answers. I can breath easier knowing that I won't auto-fail 5% of my spell strikes!

Quick question. Do you automatically fail when casting defensively on a roll of one?

So, assuming my magus survives to level 2, it might go something like this:

Round 1:
Attack with weapon. Cast Chill Touch defensively (assume success). Attack with Chill Touch
Round 2:
Attack with weapon. Attack with Chill Touch. I would think that even a magus could not cast another spell this round.

OR (even better):
Round 1:
Attack with weapon. Cast Chill Touch defensively (again assume success) with Spellstrike. Attack with weapon again. A hit this time delivers normal weapon damage + Chill Touch damage.
Round 2:
Attack with weapon. A hit delivers normal weapon damage + Chill Touch. Cast another spell using Spell Combat.

Better yet, cast the spell with spellstrike first in the round (casting it defensively), then both attacks in the first round would deliver Chill Touch, and, if you miss the first swing, you could still deliver a charge with the second.

james maissen wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

It is actually considered light armor -- unlike mithral which is light armor for most purposes (but not all).

Elven chainmail has the same wording.. I thought that it had been changed with PF.

Mea culpa,

-James

JJ or JB had commented on this -- elven chain mail is actually different than 'standard' chain mail -- please note that 'normal' mithral chain mail is only 4,150 gp while elven chain mail is 5,150gp. That extra 1,000 gp isn't just the elves charging more -- it's because the armor is actually light armor for all purposes.

Hehe, now if it was Dwarves, I could see the needless upcharge.

Ok.

To elaborate on the holding a touch spell question.
If I was allowed to discharge a touch spell I have held on any melee attack.
Then I could cast and hold a touch spell for one turn, move into position.
Then on the following turn do spell combat which would look like this.
Melee attack with -2 hit
Spellstrike with held touch spell
Spellstrike with the spell granted by spell combat with a -2 hit.

So I would get to do two attacks and two spellcasts in one turn at level 3.
I don't think that's how its supposed to work.
My argument was that all spell strike does is change the delivery method for touch spells into [Range: Melee Attack].
So you couldn't use a held touch spell on an opportunity attack because you cant cast spells as opportunity attacks. Correct?

Yes, but then you would be pretty much done for the day. Hope it's dead ;)

Also, if your first swing missed you would lose that held spell when you cast the next spell using spell combat. Or you would just have to skip your casting that round and have taken -2 for nothing. Not to mention you're casting the second spell defensively. There are trade-offs built into how the magus operates.

So I just started playing a Magus in our game and have gotten to level 3.

Now we have hit a few speedbumps with how some of the class mechanics work and how they interact with core mechanics.

If you hold a touch spell and don't discharge it, can you discharge the spell with any melee attack? Like an attack of oppurtunity?
Or would the only way to deliver the spell be by discharging the spell with the normal standard action touch attack (Which could be converted into a weapon attack via spellstrike)?

Yes, you can.

From PRD:
"Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. . . . . If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

Another issue is a couple of my group think the ability to critically hit a spell on a weapon critical hit using spellstrike is incredibly overpowered. Getting upwards of 60 or more damage at level 4 with good rolls. Anyone have an opinion on that?

Ugh, my GM is of the same opinion, yet somehow none of the hardcore posters here seem to think it unbalanced. The Magus can spike some serious damage. Without these spikes, the Magus really doesn't keep up with other melee classes--who all have better hp's, better BAB, and an unlimited amount of swings at their highest damage output compared to the limited resources of a magus relying on spells for most of his damage. At 3rd level, you have 18-20 chance to crit with weapon as opposed to a 20, so an extra 10%. That is more than counterbalanced by the fact that you're losing spells by having to cast defensively--DC: 15 + (2*spell level).

And lastly, is the Magus a strength or dexterity favored class? Another thing I'm simply looking for an opinion on.

Dex needs Dervish Dance, but then outpaces STR builds early on. STR starts to pull ahead mid levels.

Check for the posts on these boards and the excellent guide to the Magus by Walter here

I like ideas involving more classes, more prestige classes, more archetypes, partial gestalt, etc., etc., but I also like simple things. I'd be interested in feedback on this, which is a system to give small bonuses to players for multiclassing. What's below actually involves a lot of bonuses: am I giving too much? Should it be decreased? Any thoughts welcome.

1. +1 to the leveling class' ability score
2. +1 to effective level in any one class
3. Bonus feat
4. +1 to effective level in any one class
5. Bonus feat, +1 to the leveling class's ability score
6. +1 to effective level in any one class
7. Bonus feat
8. +1 to effective level in any one class
9. Bonus feat, +1 to the leveling class's ability score
10. Dual focus
...

The problem I see is that the system encourages early level dipping instead of true multi-classing. Get that early rogue level or two for sneak attack, evasion, skills, and now abilities and then get to 18 in your "real" class.

Honestly, I like the fact that single class builds are rewarded and that core hybrid classes get benefits over multi-class builds.

John Kerrigan wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

For example I know I'm going to be using light armor -- and that celestial armor is the 'best' of the light armors (it grants the highest possible combined armor class), however it has a maximum dexterity bonus of +8.

Now unless I'm mistaken This armor is Chain mail not a chain shirt. Even though the description says that it is considered light, but it doesn't say for proficiency like elven chain.

So how do we know if it is really Light armor or just considered light armor but need Medium Armor Prof. like armor made from different materials?

Celestial chainmail is medium armor, but by the time the magus can afford it he'll be able to use medium armor.

-James

Celestial armor states "it is considered light armor" in the descripton, and unlike mithral doesn't mention anything about needing med armor proficiency (though it is stated as chain mail).

Wow, really sorry about your friend. I would argue that games are, above all else, a way to spend great times among friends.

If travel distance is a problem, I would strongly recommend playing over Skype. It's not the same as being there in person, but I've been playing that way for years and it works surprisingly well.

It's a no go on the spell combat becous it work like two weapon fighting. The spell being cast and the attacks hapen at the same time. So for devirish dance there is a weapon in your off hand the spell being cast.

Spell Combat (Ex)
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.

Calagnar, I believe this issue still hasn't been resolved.

Spell Combat is balanced as if it were akin to 2 weapon fighting, so I suspect from a strictly game-balance issue, you wouldn't be able to use it with Dervish Dance.

From a flavor point, though, the concept of a Sarenite magus fighting with a scimitar is pretty nifty, so I'd allow it in games I run. And by the strict rules as written in the feat, it's legal since you don't have a weapon or a shield in that off hand.

I'm not gonna give a definitive yes/no though, for 2 reasons:
1) I really DO want GMs to make their own educated decisions.
2) The design team is the one that does the actual design stuff. I'm not on that team.

I imagine many DD magi will be very irked if it's ruled illegal, but it seems to be a sort of "wait and see" situation right now officially.

Feats:

7. Lunge

Alternately, change Weapon Focus to Craft Wondrous Items {depending on the campaign}, and delay either Lunge or WF to 9th. The Dex Magus will greatly benefit from earlier access to a Handy Haversack, skill boosting items, and an Efficient Quiver. If allowed, shifting the slot for Muleback Cords to a belt completely solves the carrying capacity problem without straining credulity.

Unfortunately a magus doesn't qualify for Lunge until 8th level (+6 BAB). Also a Belt of Incredible Dexterity is a must item for the waist slot. I just don't see a convenient way to keep strength under 12 for a Magus--I don't like asking the wizard to carry my extra stuff.

I would spend the 20pts as follows:

STR 10
INT 18 (16+2racial)
WIS 07
DEX 19 (17+2racial)
CON 12 (14-2racial)
CHA 07

-James

I prefer more balanced stats (seems to go with the versatility of the Magus as well). I also wanted to keep a bit more strength in case I have to stick with a finesse rapier build; plus I don't want to be fighting against encumbrance limits during the early levels. I am looking at

STR 12
DEX 18 (16 + racial)
CON 12 (14 - racial)
INT 16 (14 + racial)
WIS 10
CHA 8

But I'm still considering whether I want INT or DEX tops. Also still deciding on Focused Mind or Magical Lineage for my Magic trait.

Wait a few months and the question will be. As anyone seen anything BESIDES a Dervish Dance build magus.?

Yea, that's the biggest reason to go with a STR build, but I love the flavor of a dex-based melee character. Even if DD isn't allowed, I like the flavor enough to play with a weaker finesse build.

Maybe I should make INT my 18 (after racial adjustment) instead of DEX. That way I know those points will still be giving me good returns no matter how the feats and weapon end up sussing out.

You're forgetting the most important reason for larger fonts and big margins--the demographic of p&p rpg's. If you remember playing 1st edition D&D, then you're probably hoping for a large print edition of PF-2 like I am ; )

Wyrd20 wrote:

Greater invisibility.

Doesn't 100% concealment negate AoO's?

There's no such thing as 100% concealment. It ends at 50% concealment (which is total concealment).

All forms of concealment negate AoO's.

Please note that concealment should not be mistaken for "miss chance" which can be altogether different (in that, unless it comes from concealment, it doesn't negate AoO's).

Darn basic grasp of the English language is getting in the way of mastering PF rules again--total = 50% ;)

I knew all cover prevented AoO's, but I thought only total concealment negated AoO's.

Greater invisibility.

Doesn't 100% concealment negate AoO's?

Also, many people know it but...

Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp) is a Must Have Trait

You take Toppling spell at 1st level and can have Trip Attempts layered on for free for the 1st 7 or so levels.
Later putting Intensify on at higher levels has you doing up to 10d6 with NO save from what is still a 1st level spell.

. . .

The first lets you trip foes of ANY size, the second lets you blast area spells and not hit your allies.

Remember that Toppling only works with force spells.

I've been wondering if there is a size limit for tripping with Toppling Spell.

Back to the OP. Awesome guide. This would probably have helped me build my magus a bit better (though my GM thinks my magus is overpowered as he stands).

One thing I'm wondering is why Combat Casting isn't in your builds. You will be casting defensively every time you use Spellstrike and, especially at lower levels, your spells will be fizzling a lot without that +4 (or +6 with the focused mind trait).

For Corrosive Touch, I like to keep one on hand in case I meet something with resistance to electricity. The lower damage is worth the versatility to me since versatility is what the Magus is all about.

Oh, and a small thing on Arcane Strike is that it's +1 and then +1 per 5 levels.

Also, the magus has one trick that makes the Blood Transcription spell obsolete. At level 7, the magus can prep any spell from the magus spell list with Knowledge Pool and then just copy it into his spellbook for the cost of materials. Much more civilized than having your character drink some evil stranger's blood ;)

Familiar is definitely a solid arcana and opens up the improved familiar feat for later on. Nice to have the alertness bonus and a ready flanking partner for any fight.

Improved initiative will be really handy if you are the one throwing haste on your group (before half of them scatter out of range).

I wish hasted assault opened up earlier. By the time you get it at 9th, you're probably already just casting haste and you're 2 levels from spell recalling it for the same 1 arcane point.

Well, sorry to thread jack again, but I had one more consideration for how DD is interpreted. If you read it as Maxximilius has, then a creature/character with claws would never be able to use the feat.

I hope they clear this up officially as I imagine a lot of scimitar magus's are already hitting PFS play.

Gamegeezer wrote:

Maxximilius, can you link a ruling on this? Most of the posts I've read list the dervish dance build for a magus as legal.

"At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand."

Seems pretty clear to me, or else two-weapon fighting wouldn't have been mentioned, even less the fact that this functions as if the spell is a off-hand weapon.
I humbly guess that if this was intended to consider the off-hand free during spell combat, the description would just say something like "this capacity allows you to additionally cast a spell during a full-round attack action by taking -2 to all your attacks of this round".

I read that as more of an analogy for how spell combat works with the "much like" in there. Also what, happens when using spellstrike where the off-hand doesn't deliver the spell at all?

Dervish dance looks more at whether something is actually held in the off hand (without getting into carried vs. wielded):

You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

A spell is considered as a weapon in your off-hand when using spell combat. So, no free-hand for Dervish Dance.

Maxximilius, can you link a ruling on this? Most of the posts I've read list the dervish dance build for a magus as legal.

I'm not convinced that arcane strike will be that great. Your magus might be using swift actions in other ways and AS isn't that impressive of a damage boost (though at least it doesn't lower the magus's already shaky to hit). Extra arcane pool is always nice to power spell recall and the keen bonus you'll be adding most fights. Instead of close range, you might take wand wielder and buy a wand of shocking grasp for cheap to start out. The +3 to hit for a lot of fights is even better than the extra damage over acid splash. Anyway enjoy your magus. I just started a dex magus and I'm really loving his spinning, dancing, spell weaving style!

I think I saw a posting that sneak attack damage with a vamp touch would add to your temp hp, but I wasn't sure if that was from a special property of sneak attack or a more general rule that all of the damage dealt with vamp touch attack (even non-spell) drained over to the caster

Been digging around for a while and still can't find the answer to these questions, so I've decided to drop stealth and ask.

1. Does weapon damage also get added to the caster's temp hit points (say with spell storing or magus spellstrike) when casting vampiric touch? As a 10th level magus (DD build), would I get 5d6 + 1d6 + dex + enchantment bonus--all converted into temp hp?

2. If I use a spell storing weapon, do I get to wait and see that it crits and then decide to activate the stored vamp touch? If so, does the spell get doubled plus all the other damage (and, again, does all of that or just the 10d6 get added to my temp hp pool)?

Relevant rules/discussion links would be much appreciated.