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For me Clerics should be as powerful as a wizard if not more so (they get a boost from the Gods) but they in a sense should be more limited. Magic is magic and you understand it or you don't. Once you master it you are limited only by the limits of magic. Clerics need to get help from the Gods and let's face it are the Gods always at the beck and call of the Cleric. Gods in most Fantasy settings are really there for the Clerics to get their spells from. Alot of the Gods are dealing with things within their own reals as well as in the mortal realms. Yes the Cleric prays to their God but does the God always listen? So for me the Cleric should be more powerful than any magic user but a little more restricted.
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Ideally I would like the idea of a cleric having a “prayer book”. By following the example of the wizard, you could give the cleric all Orisons in his “prayer book” when he starts out along with say 3 + his wisdom modifier first level spells of his choice. And then he gets to add spells as he finds the scrolls. This is an idea that I like.Perhaps a compromise, as an earlier poster suggested, is to give the cleric access to all of the Core Rule book spells, but they have to find anything that is outside the Core.
Anyways that’s just my two cents.
I think the thing with a prayer book, is that religions being typically well organized, each template would likely have tomes full of the spells their god grants, and you would be hard put to deny the faithful and blessed access to copy them.
Sure there becomes a space and time limitation on how many prayer books you want to carry, and you would have to return periodically to your church to access them, but they would still be there.
The totally over-the-top solution is to assign all cleric spells into 'spheres' that would be available to only clerics of specific dieties, based on their themes, domains and portfolios, but that way lies madness. :)Tell me about it.
I'm seriously thinking about making them all spontaneous casters and being done with it.
I've found games are just overall better with sorcerers and oracles but no wizards or clerics :)
( Once we get a spontaneous druid... ;p )
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Galnroag, a good point. I was simply from a game mechanic perspective, trying not to re invent the wheel, and use something that already works.
Well granting access to a sacred library, while the cleric will probably be granted access, it would also be an opportunity for world building, to sink in a plot hook, and to develop some NPCs and even the cleric's background.
I could see the organized religions maintaining sacred libraries containing clerical spells. Looking at the Faiths of Purity, I would guess the clergy of Torag, Sarenrae, Iomedae would be quite organized. I might include the clergy of Abadar and Asmodeus in that catagory. I could see those faiths maintaining sacred libraries.
However I don't think the faiths of Shelyn, Desna, Cayden Cailean, and Erastil would be very organized and probably wouldn't have vast sacred Libraries. I could see the clergy of Shelyn maintaining a museum of art however.
I guess the question is if you think that once you gain a level and have access to a particular spell level, you then gain access to all the spells available. I think its a touch too powerful, and i think a Prayer book would be a simple solution.
thanks
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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However I don't think the faiths of Shelyn, Desna, Cayden Cailean, and Erastil would be very organized and probably wouldn't have vast sacred Libraries. I could see the clergy of Shelyn maintaining a museum of art however.
Cayden Cleric researching: Oh come on! tramsnute water to wine, transmute water to beer, transmute saltwater to rum, transmute water to tequelia, transmute water to kvas but no transmute my foes to smouldering piles of ash! Is this a temple or a library?
Senior Priest: Yes.|
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Cayden Cleric researching: Oh come on! tramsnute water to wine, transmute water to beer, transmute saltwater to rum, transmute water to tequelia, transmute water to kvas but no transmute my foes to smouldering piles of ash! Is this a temple or a library?
Senior Priest: Yes.
I'm pretty sure that 90% of Caydenite spell-research is focused on the spells 'Neutralize Hangover,' 'Leomund's Grand Festhall' and the controversial 'Morning After Spell.'
Cayden Cleric researching: Oh come on! tramsnute water to wine, transmute water to beer, transmute saltwater to rum, transmute water to tequelia, transmute water to kvas but no transmute my foes to smouldering piles of ash! Is this a temple or a library?
Senior Priest: Yes.I'm pretty sure that 90% of Caydenite spell-research is focused on the spells 'Neutralize Hangover,' 'Leomund's Grand Festhall' and the controversial 'Morning After Spell.'
Don't forget 'Reflavor Beer', then 'Great Reflavor Beer', plus 'Offset Drunken Stagger', and 'Create Beer' and its many many derivations. Oh, and 'Unflatten Beer', can't forget that!
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Another method, only logical if you trust your GM implicitly:
The cleric has a default prepared spell list. Any time he wants to prepare a cleric spell not on the list, he has to pray for it. The GM decides whether or not the god answers the prayer.
This is the paperwork-light version of Set's "spheres" suggestion, above.
With a cool GM, this might actually feel a little more "divine" as the GM can help to guide your spell list to upcoming events in a prescient manner befitting a deity.
I actually like this idea. This gives the cleric's faith the everyday spells that might be used in a day's service without much attention on the part of the deity (aka GM). While special circumstances call for the cleric to pray for other spells a situation may demand. This would also bring to the deity's attention a situation in the mortal world that may require its attention in other ways, such as sending a servant to the cleric, or other subtle method. After all, the "gods" aren't all powerful or all knowing in D&D or Pathfinder, only eminently more powerful than mortals, perhaps seeming all powerful or all knowing.
I actually like this idea. This gives the cleric's faith the everyday spells that might be used in a day's service without much attention on the part of the deity (aka GM). While special circumstances call for the cleric to pray for other spells a situation may demand. This would also bring to the deity's attention a situation in the mortal world that may require its attention in other ways, such as sending a servant to the cleric, or other subtle method. After all, the "gods" aren't all powerful or all knowing in D&D or Pathfinder, only eminently more powerful than mortals, perhaps seeming all powerful or all knowing.Another method, only logical if you trust your GM implicitly:
The cleric has a default prepared spell list. Any time he wants to prepare a cleric spell not on the list, he has to pray for it. The GM decides whether or not the god answers the prayer.
This is the paperwork-light version of Set's "spheres" suggestion, above.
With a cool GM, this might actually feel a little more "divine" as the GM can help to guide your spell list to upcoming events in a prescient manner befitting a deity.
Ideally the divine character would self-regulate this for role playing purposes making it a moot point, but I realize that's not always the case.
If in a game where automatically having all divine spells creates an issue for others or is being abused by clerics not playing by their deity’s portfolio this is how I would solve it too. Obviously swapping domain spells should get auto approval but otherwise this is a good compromise.
Also while I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it already or not I don’t think wizards should ever be given all spells (to even up for the cleric's wide spell selection) because finding new spells is the stereotypical drive for wizards to adventure in the first place.
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Have you considered making all clerics spontaneous wordcasters (using the words of power rules from the PRD)? Effect words are already divided into a short list of groups which would work perfectly as spheres.
Being that I play 3.5 and not Pathfinder, and have not had a chance to actually read Wordcasting, no. :)
This is what I was referring to.
I may even roll the wizard and sorcerer into one class.
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I may even roll the wizard and sorcerer into one class.
That's my ideal.
At 1st level, a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Wizard or Adept chooses whether or not they are going to be a prepared or spontaneous caster.
If prepared, they keep a record of spells known, using the same acquisition mechanic a wizard uses, whether they record the spells in a sheaf of musical notation, an ogham record of squiggles and druidic pictograms inscribed on flexible bark, or a holy codex of rites of the faith, it's the same cost to learn new spells (and 2 free per level, with some being 'automatic,' like domain spells and the spells that a caster gains spontaneously, like cure/inflict spells for a cleric or summon nature's ally spells for a druid).
If spontaneous, they use sorcerer rules, gaining a small, fixed number of spells known, more castings per day and flexible casting.
The sorcerer no longer exists as a class, it's just a wizard who casts spontaneously, and gains the bonus feats of a wizard. Said wizard can call himself a 'sorcerer,' and a spontaneous cleric can call herself a 'favored soul' or an 'oracle,' but they are just folk.
Spell acquisition is not offset. Prepared or Spontaneous, a full caster gets access to second level spells at 3rd level, third level spells at 5th level, etc. At any level, you can swap out a spell known of any level other than the highest level of spell you know (and at 19th and 20th, you could choose to swap a 9th level spell).
I never thought spontaneous / non-Vancian magic required the level of extreme caution that the 3.0 design team did.
The only fiddly part is deciding what to do with casting stats. I'm partial to opening that up as well. A prepared spellcaster of any class could use Int, or their normal casting stat (Wis for cleric, Cha for bard, etc). A spontaneous spellcaster of any class could use Cha, or their normal casting stat. Either way, make this choice at 1st level.
If this opens up the possibility that some clerics and druids are highly literate natural philosophers and ecclesiastic scholars (Int based prepared casters), and others are 'charismatics' and faith-healers (Cha based spontaneous casters), and still others use a combination of devotion, will and keen insight into deeper spiritual realms to fuel their abilities (Wis based casters of *either* sort), I'm good with that.