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Okay, let's say theoretically I'm a 5th level sorcerer and I cast Burning Hands on a swarm that has DR 10/-. I roll 11 damage, and the swarm makes its saving throw.
Area effect spells have a 50% damage bonus against swarms.
So... what do I calculate first? I get a different result every time. Assuming that DR applies either first or last, which of the following shows the right order we apply these effects?
CHOICE 1:
Area-bonus, then saving throw, then DR:
11 + 50% = 16
16 / 2 = 8
8 - 5 = 3
CHOICE 2:
Saving throw, then area-bonus, then DR:
11 / 2 = 5
5 + 50% = 7
7 - 5 = 2
CHOICE 3:
DR, then area-bonus, then saving throw:
12 - 5 = 7
7 + 50% = 10
10 / 2 = 5
CHOICE 4:
DR, then saving throw, then area-bonus:
12 - 5 = 7
7 / 2 = 3
3 + 50% = 4
I know, it feels like taking the SAT. :p
Thanks in advance!
OK, it works like this:
1) multiply damage by 150% for the extra damage vs swarms for the total damage.
2) make the save, if applicable. If they succeed, half the total damage so far.
3) Subtract fire resistance from the final damage.
The pattern is always:
Calculate base damage, multiplying for vulnerabilities if needed.
Then apply the effects of saves.
Then apply any resistance or DR.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even
nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.
For fire resistance, it ticks off of the total. If you do 10 on dice, then you do 15 total damage. A successful reflex save drops it to 7 damage, and any fire resistance applies after that.
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Okay, let's say theoretically I'm a 5th level sorcerer and I cast Burning Hands on a swarm that has DR 10/-. I roll 11 damage, and the swarm makes its saving throw.
Area effect spells have a 50% damage bonus against swarms.
So... what do I calculate first? I get a different result every time. Assuming that DR applies either first or last, which of the following shows the right order we apply these effects?
DR doesn't apply against spells.
Also note this: DR applies to weapons and things that do slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage. Most spells don't do these things (there are a few exceptions, like ice storm). So it doesn't factor into this at all.
The pattern is always:
Calculate base damage, multiplying for vulnerabilities if needed.
Then apply the effects of saves.
Then apply any resistance or DR.
Do you have a rules quotation for this?
Do you have a rules quotation for this?The pattern is always:
Calculate base damage, multiplying for vulnerabilities if needed.
Then apply the effects of saves.
Then apply any resistance or DR.
Sadly no. It's logical though:
If a creature takes extra damage from a source, or you inflict extra damage (from extra strength or Empowering a spell) it multiplies at the start.
Then any saves or divisions take place - a reflex save represents getting out of the way, for example.
Only then does any DR or resistance apply to the final actual damage that are inflicted.
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DR doesn't apply against spells.Okay, let's say theoretically I'm a 5th level sorcerer and I cast Burning Hands on a swarm that has DR 10/-. I roll 11 damage, and the swarm makes its saving throw.
Area effect spells have a 50% damage bonus against swarms.
So... what do I calculate first? I get a different result every time. Assuming that DR applies either first or last, which of the following shows the right order we apply these effects?
Thanks, you're right.
I'll keep the original example unchanged because people are answering my question.
Besides, this same question would come up when using a slashing weapon against a swarm of Tiny creatures (reduced to half damage) and other situations.
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Do you have a rules quotation for this?The pattern is always:
Calculate base damage, multiplying for vulnerabilities if needed.
Then apply the effects of saves.
Then apply any resistance or DR.
Sadly no. It's logical though:
If a creature takes extra damage from a source, or you inflict extra damage (from extra strength or Empowering a spell) it multiplies at the start.
Then any saves or divisions take place - a reflex save represents getting out of the way, for example.
Only then does any DR or resistance apply to the final actual damage that are inflicted.
I'm guessing this isn't addressed directly in the rules, but I agree with your logic. In a sense, it "starts" from the attacker's end and ends with the target's natural resistances/immunities.
However, one could also theoretically say that the swarm first tries to avoid the attack, and it's only after this that the effects of contact (e.g. extra 50% damage) apply.
Do you have a rules quotation for this?The pattern is always:
Calculate base damage, multiplying for vulnerabilities if needed.
Then apply the effects of saves.
Then apply any resistance or DR.
Sadly no. It's logical though:
If a creature takes extra damage from a source, or you inflict extra damage (from extra strength or Empowering a spell) it multiplies at the start.
Then any saves or divisions take place - a reflex save represents getting out of the way, for example.
Only then does any DR or resistance apply to the final actual damage that are inflicted.
I'm guessing this isn't addressed directly in the rules, but I agree with your logic. In a sense, it "starts" from the attacker's end and ends with the target's natural resistances/immunities.
However, one could also theoretically say that the swarm first tries to avoid the attack, and it's only after this that the effects of contact (e.g. extra 50% damage) apply.
No, the swarm takes extra damage because it is composed of many small creatures that are individually very weak. Imagine if you counted a rat swarm as twenty individual rats and hit them with a burning hands? twenty dead rats, regardless of their saves because individually they cannot take the damage. That is something the swarm cannot change no matter what it does. Because a swarm occupies an area, it can't really avoid en mass an area of effect, although some individuals may get shielded by others or escape the area of effect.
Hence, damage multiplier first.
DR doesn't apply against spells.Okay, let's say theoretically I'm a 5th level sorcerer and I cast Burning Hands on a swarm that has DR 10/-. I roll 11 damage, and the swarm makes its saving throw.
Area effect spells have a 50% damage bonus against swarms.
So... what do I calculate first? I get a different result every time. Assuming that DR applies either first or last, which of the following shows the right order we apply these effects?
Thanks, you're right.
I'll keep the original example unchanged because people are answering my question.
Besides, this same question would come up when using a slashing weapon against a swarm of Tiny creatures (reduced to half damage) and other situations.
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and
no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to criticalhits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures
takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons.
A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is
immune to all weapon damage. Beastiary Page 313
This is straight up PEMDAS. Multiply (150%) before you divide (50%) and subtract (resist/DR).
Here's a question that I always had.. when dealing with DR, do Melee Weapon properties such as Flaming or Frost get handled by DR or Resistance?
Here's a question that I always had.. when dealing with DR, do Melee Weapon properties such as Flaming or Frost get handled by DR or Resistance?
Energy damage is handled by resistance
Normal damage by DREach is treated separately
That's good to know. It makes energy damage on weapons a bit more useful against things with DR then.
1) multiply damage by 150% for the extra damage vs swarms for the total damage.
2) make the save, if applicable. If they succeed, half the total damage so far.
3) Subtract fire resistance from the final damageThis is correct. Mathematically #1 & #2 can be applied in either order as in (A*B)*C=A*(B*C). However, DR or Resist is always applied last. If there were SR, it would be applied before either.
This would be the case if it were pure multiplication, but in his example it isn't. The equation isn't (A*B)*C vs A*(B*C), but rather f(f(A*B)*C) vs f(A*f(B*C)) where f(x) is the round-down function. As demonstrated in his example, then, it DOES matter what order they are applied in.
If the base damage is 11 and we add bonus damage first then we get:
damage=f(f(11*1.5)*.5)
=f(f(16.5)*.5)
=f(16*.5)
=f(8)
=8
If the base damage is 11 and we do the save reduction first:
damage=f(f(11*.5)*1.5)
=f(f(5.5)*1.5)
=f(5*1.5)
=f(7.5)
=7
So if the save reduction is done first, then final damage will be 1 lower.
I don't know if this is the way that the damage is actually supposed to be calculated, but it is the way that the OP did it in his first post, and nobody has called that out yet as wrong. The downside to not doing it this way is that with multiple modifiers affecting 1 roll, you can wind up with some pretty deep decimals.
For example, what if this spell were first empowered? Then you'd wind up with a final number measured in 8ths, and I'm sure people can come up with ways to get even more fractions in there too.