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Counterpoint to the old man griping in this other thread.
If another hobby with its own culture and terminology seems massively predisposed to buy into pen and paper RPGs because they're interested in the heritage of fantasy gaming — I say welcome them with open arms.
They may "tank" their "toons" and "dps" all the way up Pathfinder's "instance" as far as I'm concerned. Any new blood is good new blood, and I hate to think we are so grognardy about it that we'd make people feel unwelcome. Grognards, it may bother you, but if you just smile and nod and show them how it's done, they'll fall in line eventually!
Seriously, just be a smart, happy, welcoming community. Then girls might want to play with us.
Since the other thread is oppressively opinionated on this matter, I thought we could use a thread for people who don't mind, or people who came to PF/D&D from MMOs, or people who have learned about one game from playing the other.
This concludes the most recent chapter of Evil Lincoln's Just Calm the $*&# Down, People, a 700 part series.
Canes here! Get your canes! All canes have rubber grips to prevent slippage when shaking at unruly kids on your lawn! Extra light! On sale now!
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Well said.
As a bald, fat thirtysomething grognard I am aware that roleplaying is somewhat of a niche activity and it needs new blood to survive. I've seen the prophets of doom circling before now. When M:TG arrived people declared the end of RPG's, people wailed at the OGL killing off roleplaying and now they are pointing at MMO's.
Personally I don't care because I am fairly convinced that RPG's will exist in a pen and paper form 30 years from now. As such we should welcome anything that gets people roleplaying.
("Toon" still winds me up though...)
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Then girls might want to play with us.
Come on now, let's not be ridiculous. :-P
Seriously, there are plenty of cool people that play MMO's. There are even people that actually roleplay in MMO's. When you're in a competitive MMO battle (My MMO experience comes from Guild Wars, but to each his own) it's entirely necessary to be able to give tactical commands/suggestions in a short amount of time. That's why MMO slang is so short - "kite", "DPS", "spike", etc.
It's actually pretty cool to have to make decisions like *snaps* that, and not have to sit around waiting while everyone else does what they're going to do. It's easier to mess up, which is what makes it fun. There's a lot of pressure. While I enjoy that type of scenario less, I still do find it enjoyable, and there is a lot tabletop players can learn from it, if only we'd let ourselves.
I see these sentiments from time to time, and depending on my mood I either roll my eyes or feel vaguely offended before moving on.
I didn't actually come to the pen-and-paper scene from MMOs. What made me aware of its existence was Neverwinter Nights and Knights of the Old Republic. I've always loved roleplaying online whether it was a hack-and-slash type slaughterfest, an RP server, or just free-form roleplaying via forum. And of course there have been a few MMOs in the fray (though few of them were completely traditional ones).
Still, I'm aware of all the terms and the mindset that might come with it. I'm only able to play online and my typical group are all 20 somethings with a similar background (in fact pretty much all of them were introduced to D&D 3.5 by me back in 2007), so we occasionally borrow a term. (Tank is pretty useful shorthand for 'guy whose job it is to intercept pointy bits while the wizard does his thing')
Anyway, rambling aside, I personally don't mind the cranky old men griping about things like this, but part of my brain still lights up into defensive mode when I realize one's talking about people like me. It's a great way for someone just checking out this pen-and-paper thing to get a really bad intro, and as we know first impressions are everything.
I occasionally run demos of Pathfinder at my FLGS. During one demo, one of the players who sat down admitted he'd never played a tabletop RPG and had only played World of Warcraft. I admit, a part of me inside groaned, but I welcomed him to the table, and had him pick out his character and explained the basic terms, etc.
He was probably one of the most enthusiastic players at the table. He picked the game up very quickly, did not spout strange terminology, and used good tactics for a new person to tabletop gaming. He had a little trouble at first understanding that anything outside combat wasn't in turns (probably because he was likening the tabletop RPG to a board game), but once he got that everyone could interact and try things out as they thought of them, he was a creative and valuable player to have.
I don't know if he's kept on playing Pathfinder or other tabletop RPGs but he said he had fun and I'm glad both he and I got the chance--me to introduce the game to a person new to it, him to try out tabletop RPGs and the different kind of experience it offers.
Anyone's welcome at my table who's willing to learn and ready to be a team player. And I don't groan inside anymore when I hear someone's first experiences with RPGs were of the MMO variety.
I dont have a problem with the terminology or players from MMOs coming into pathfinder or any other tabletop rpg. Some of them will mesh with my group, some will not. But they likely will mesh with other groups. One of the new additions to my table actually had a relative easy time adjusting to the game despite having never played pen and paper games before because when I said things like experience and class level he wasnt lost. I'd say mmo's and video game rpgs are an asset to tabletop games. And actually I was listening to a recording of a session from paizo con on 'the future of paizo' where they talk about this very thing. They talked about how easy it is to get new players into the game because of things like wow and diablo. I tend to agree.
This influx of new players will be the lifeblood of rpgs like pathfinder. Without the guys who say 'toon', and 'kite'(i have no idea what that means), there may not be a pathfinder or similar game for the gronards to play.
I wonder how many people here realize the average age of wow players is arround 30. A 2005 study put it at 28, and if it followed the general paterns of the rest of the video game industry, it has gone up some since then.
*mutter mutter*
Things were better back in my day....
*mutter mutter*
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I wonder how many people here realize the average age of wow players is arround 30. A 2005 study put it at 28, and if it followed the general paterns of the rest of the video game industry, it has gone up some since then.
Probably at the same point that news networks realise that games aren't played exclusively by spotty teenagers.
I'm fine with MMO-ers joining in pen & paper RPGs. I do have a problem with them trying to recreate their MMO experience at my table. I play MMOs and I play pen & paper RPGs too. I like both because they are different experiences.
I like in pen & paper RPGs that there is a human GM that can handle something beyond the scope of an MMO's programming. I like MMOs because I sit back and not have to worry about tracking all the minutia that goes with running a character.
The classic example of what not to bring to pen & paper RPG's is ability to get 'aggro' and 'kite' the boss. Any half-witted mook should realize what is going on and go after the squishies that are doing all the damage. I want intelligent NPCs in my RPG, not some mindless automaton following his programming.
So, those young whippersnappers are welcome at my table, as long as they know we are going to play a pen & paper RPG not an MMO-without-a-computer.
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'kite'(i have no idea what that means)
It means "run away using evasive maneuvers". The pattern a fleeing character might use is similar to the movements of an airborne kite, darting this way and that in a somewhat unpredictable manner. This is done to keep pursuing melee characters in doubt about which way to run in order to hit the fleeing character.
In case you were remotely curious. :-)
I wonder how many people here realize the average age of wow players is arround 30. A 2005 study put it at 28, and if it followed the general paterns of the rest of the video game industry, it has gone up some since then.
I did not realize that. After considering some things, it does make sense to me. When I was growing up, Atari was cutting edge and not everyone had it. As I got older, younger friends had multiple console gaming systems to choose from (and owned more than one.) It is those guys (and a few girls too), about 10 years younger than me, who drive the console gaming industry.
As for Grognards vs. WOWsers, well I don't really care about either subset. I like to play with gamers, eat good food and drink some beer. If you can do that, I don't care what your personal history is.
Oh, I know grognards will be grognards. I don't really mind people complaining about them damn kids... I just think we all benefit from not being so damned elitist sometimes. "Kids"* have every right to play the game too, and they have right to call things whatever they like. The old guard can wring their hands and moan about it, but I think it would be better to encourage the new blood instead of setting up bulwarks and standing our ground.
*in this case, many adults coming from a different game assumption.
'kite'(i have no idea what that means)
In MMO games, monsters will follow the people they have the highest 'hate' or 'aggro' on. To reach them, they always take the shortest possible path-- usually a straight line. So, if you've pissed off some beastie, it'll run at you directly. If you run away, it'll follow you directly, turning as you turn to run the shortest possible distance to catch you. All in all, evading a monster in this way is visually similar to a person running with and being followed by a kite. EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that you consistently build up hate by turning and shooting this monster or zapping it with a spell or giving it what for in the form of a taunt ability. In Pathfinder, a ranger with 40ft movement speed out-maneuvering a troll and using Shot on the Run to keep out of their threatened areas while still dealing damage would be "kiting" the troll. (The difference being that in WoW the monsters are forced to chase, whereas in PF, the monsters could say "#$%! this" and go prone, or throw rocks, or run away)
My Friday table, going around:
GM (me): Plays WoW
P1: Plays WoW
P2: Plays WoW
P3: Plays WoW
P4: Plays WoW
P5: Played FFXII
P6: Makes fun of us for playing WoW
As an amusing anecdote, the five of us who play WoW all raid in the same raid team. When we did 25 man raids, in the interim during trash pulls, breaks, runs back from wipes and boring fights, we would talk about D&D over Ventrilo. Pretty much every time we talked about it, one of the other 20 people in the raid would stop and ask "Hey, what're you guys talking about? What is this?" and when I told them D&D, they'd say, "D&D? But isn't that for nerds?"
I have spent hours trying to explain to people the concept of D&D as a game where no one wins.
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I can think of one thing that tabletoppers could learn from MMO-ers: being timely.
I very often see players sit around talking during everyone else's turn during combat, and then when they finally realize it's their turn, they have to freshly assess the situation for a couple of minutes, verify which enemies are still up (sometimes *after* trying to attack one that's already dead and having someone stop them), and then (and this one really annoys me) rolling their attack and adding up bonuses piece-by-piece: "let's see, that's a 12, plus 4 for strength, plus 1 for BAB, plus 1 for Weapon Focus, plus 1 for masterwork, so... 19 to hit". You couldn't, say, add up all those numbers ahead of time and simply add 7 to each roll?
Though I'm not an MMO-er, I'd wager a guess that they don't have this problem - they're probably ready to go when it's their turn.
I very often see players sit around talking during everyone else's turn during combat, and then when they finally realize it's their turn, they have to freshly assess the situation
This is something that is common in group, face-to-face, interactions. When you're not being paid to listen, when it's not your turn, it is easy for your mind to wander. Some people are better at keeping their focus than others. It can suck or you can try to work with it. My mind wanders a bit, so I'm grateful when my group doesn't give me too much crap about it.
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This is something that is common in group, face-to-face, interactions. When you're not being paid to listen, when it's not your turn, it is easy for your mind to wander. Some people are better at keeping their focus than others. It can suck or you can try to work with it. My mind wanders a bit, so I'm grateful when my group doesn't give me too much crap about it.I very often see players sit around talking during everyone else's turn during combat, and then when they finally realize it's their turn, they have to freshly assess the situation
Fair enough. And really, it was the next part that bugs me the most. Your STRmod, BAB, WF, etc are going to be added to every attack, so you may as well add them all up ahead of time and write down the number, instead of making us all wait while you do the same calculations every single time you attack.
I have spent hours trying to explain to people the concept of D&D as a game where no one wins.
Its improvizational acting mixed with a war game. Don't tell them no one wins. Victory is just telling a cool story.
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I agree that I have no problem with MMOers playing in tabletop and vise versa. I personally play some MMOs on occasion.
And besides that all most MMO terminology originated from games outside MMOs. I have always refereed to a fighter that can take many hits as a "Tank" far before WOW every came out. Kiting I learned to do from the old PS1 Megaman Legends, or at least I learned the word kiting.
And another thing is that they are just short versions of old things that haven't changed. Much like how we call it a tabletop RPG instead of the original "tabletop role playing games played with pencil, paper, and miniature figures".
Its improvizational acting mixed with a war game. Don't tell them no one wins. Victory is just telling a cool story.
I have spent hours trying to explain to people the concept of D&D as a game where no one wins.
Well, in my experience, that description doesn't cover it.
Many groups play the game with the same ruleset, but without either improv acting or wargaming.
I think "role-playing game" is actually the best definition, but Pathfinder is basically an engine for choosing supernatural* powers for a fantasy character who is then faced with hypothetical situations in which to use those powers.
* this includes batman-like supernatural competence without recourse to supernatural explanation, for fighters and rogues, etc.
Acting and tactics are both optional.
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MMO's are the gateway drug to tabletops. And dont let anyone forget it. Whenever I add someone new from MMO crowd, I break it down for them like this: We're a RP PVP Server, RP and Naming Conventions are strictly enforced. If they're good with that, they're welcome. If they're not willing to adjust and learn, do we really need them?
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I agree that I have no problem with MMOers playing in tabletop and vise versa. I personally play some MMOs on occasion.
And besides that all most MMO terminology originated from games outside MMOs. I have always refereed to a fighter that can take many hits as a "Tank" far before WOW every came out. Kiting I learned to do from the old PS1 Megaman Legends, or at least I learned the word kiting.
And another thing is that they are just short versions of old things that haven't changed. Much like how we call it a tabletop RPG instead of the original "tabletop role playing games played with pencil, paper, and miniature figures".
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As an amusing anecdote, the five of us who play WoW all raid in the same raid team. When we did 25 man raids, in the interim during trash pulls, breaks, runs back from wipes and boring fights, we would talk about D&D over Ventrilo. Pretty much every time we talked about it, one of the other 20 people in the raid would stop and ask "Hey, what're you guys talking about? What is this?" and when I told them D&D, they'd say, "D&D? But isn't that for nerds?"
Even amongst nerds, there is a pecking order. One must always remember to refer to the geek hierarchy.
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Seriously, there are plenty of cool people that play MMO's. There are even people that actually roleplay in MMO's.
And there is very, very little overlap between those two groups.
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Pretty much every time we talked about it, one of the other 20 people in the raid would stop and ask "Hey, what're you guys talking about? What is this?" and when I told them D&D, they'd say, "D&D? But isn't that for nerds?"
The correct response is, "You're up late at night in front of a computer killing internet dragons with your magical elf. You'll fit right in."
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I find it pretty funny when people complain that there isn't enough new blood entering the hobby. I also find it funny when people complain about the new blood entering the hobby.
I do my best to introduce new people to the hobby every time I start up a new game, and for the last couple years I have been pretty successful. Last summer I introduced a group of high school kids to 3.5, and last Monday I ran their first Pathfinder game. My wife wanted to play for the first time and I found two new collage kids to play with us, both of them girls.
In both cases, there were WOW players. They do not expect table top RPGs to be anything like WOW though. It doesn't take long to explain everything to them, but I do find that from time to time I need to stop and answer questions about basic things in the game.
My experience tells me that a person needs about year of once a week games to learn enough of the rules to be fully competent with the game. I have players who have been playing for about six months who still ask about their to hit bonuses, ability modifiers, and initiative from time to time.
I wonder how many people here realize the average age of wow players is arround 30. A 2005 study put it at 28, and if it followed the general paterns of the rest of the video game industry, it has gone up some since then.
The problem is that I'm betting that, despite the average age, you still have a larger percentage of younger players involved in MMOs than you do in traditional RPGs.
I find it pretty funny when people complain that there isn't enough new blood entering the hobby. I also find it funny when people complain about the new blood entering the hobby.
I do my best to introduce new people to the hobby every time I start up a new game, and for the last couple years I have been pretty successful. Last summer I introduced a group of high school kids to 3.5, and last Monday I ran their first Pathfinder game. My wife wanted to play for the first time and I found two new collage kids to play with us, both of them girls.
In both cases, there were WOW players. They do not expect table top RPGs to be anything like WOW though. It doesn't take long to explain everything to them, but I do find that from time to time I need to stop and answer questions about basic things in the game.
My experience tells me that a person needs about year of once a week games to learn enough of the rules to be fully competent with the game. I have players who have been playing for about six months who still ask about their to hit bonuses, ability modifiers, and initiative from time to time.
A certain balance needs to be struck between new blood and old blood. Too much new blood, and they start to make the old blood want to go somewhere else; not enough new blood, and there isn't enough people to replace the natural attrition of old blood. As for the new blood from MMOs specifically, I've played MMOs with many people that would fit right in at the table, and I've played with a people that I can barely stand in an MMO, and the very thought of them sitting down at a table with me makes me shudder. So like most things, it depends on which ones you get, but since the former group is much, much larger than the latter group, it really isn't too big of a deal.
I have spent hours trying to explain to people the concept of D&D as a game where no one wins.Good way to describe a lot of raid groups too. :)
Zing!
A certain balance needs to be struck between new blood and old blood. Too much new blood, and they start to make the old blood want to go somewhere else;
This is only bad if the new blood isn't enough to replace it.
Or if you're part of the old blood who wants out.
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A certain balance needs to be struck between new blood and old blood. Too much new blood, and they start to make the old blood want to go somewhere else; not enough new blood, and there isn't enough people to replace the natural attrition of old blood.
I agree to an extent. I believe that there does need to be a balance, but it should be at the game table itself, not in the hobby as a whole.
At any given table, if there is going to be new blood, there should to be at least a couple of players who have experience with the game. Those experienced players also need to be willing and open to help the GM teach the new players the game. Different groups will support different ratios of new to old, but in most of my games where there are new players I have had close to a one to one ratio.
The game where my wife plays, for example, has three new players (my wife included) and two experienced players.
That isn't to say that the entire table can't be all new blood. I learned how to play AD&D with my friends in the library at school, and none of us had any idea what we were doing. I have been the GM for a couple groups where everyone was new to the hobby and it went well enough that they continued to play after I left.
I have seen a disaster with introducing new blood though. I have seen situations where the ratio was about three to one and the minority (either new or experienced) has difficulties fitting in and enjoying the game.
I think that is what you were really referring to. The classic comedy situation where someone brings their girlfriend to the game and the girlfriend ends up feeling left out and never wants to play the game again is a good example of this type of imbalance.
Why does this happen? First of all, many groups of experienced players have been playing together for some time. They have an established bond, culture, and traditions that an outsider might have a hard time adjusting to. Additionally, an outsider might be neglected and left to themselves. I saw this happen twice with my own group. Both times the person who was brought in didn't want to come back. They didn't feel like they fit in with the group.
The flip side, where there is one experienced and many new, is a bit different. The experienced player has an expectation of how a game is supposed to go. They are used to a certain pace, a certain level of play, and a certain level of roleplay. New players are not. New players are slower, dumber, and almost never roleplay. If there is just one experienced player, that player will feel like he has to carry the group, teach them the rules and promt them to do more then roll dice. It is not a fun situation to be in if you are really serious gamer.
It can work if that single experienced player is patient and understanding. It also helps if they are good teachers and know how to streamline character creation and leveling up.
So yeah. There needs to be a balance, but is at the game tables. I don't think the old experienced players would suddenly leave the hobby if there was a giant tsunami of new players suddenly playing the game. If anything, they would just stick to their established groups and refuse to let any new blood join them.
I've seen both sides of the fence, MMO players coming over to the gaming table, and table-top players giving it up to play MMO's. I started playing pen and paper RPG's several years before I played my first MMO, but to this day I play both. I've spent several years on games like Ultima Online, Final Fantasy XI(still play), etc.
I got my little brother into D&D from him playing Ultima Online. He enjoyed that D&D had a much more involved story element, and felt much more invested with our group than his normal PvP buddies in Ultima. He left the hobby a few years later, but he gave it a genuine go for a while and had fun. He didn't go back to MMO's either, however. I blame his having a girlfriend and social life in high school, lol.
Something that I think might be causing some of the stress between the two sides is the perspectives of each other's games. The differences are much, much more severe than just that one is on a screen, one's on a table; the whole mentality is different. In my experience in MMO's, unless you are playing exclusively solo or with close friends, then you are expected to min/max to MAXIMUM efficiency at ALL TIMES, or you will be brutally punished(made fun of in groups, avoided or banned from participating in events, basically driven from the game, etc). "Role-playing" has nothing to do with playing out your character's life, it means playing a "role" in whatever group you are in to accomplish tasks with maximum efficiency(tank, damage dealer, healer, etc). These games turn into little more than a rat race of grind xp, get better loot to grind better xp, to get better loot to grind better xp, repeat ad nauseum. You are not your character, you're a cog in the machine. If your class happens to use Great axes the best, guess what? You're going to use a Great axe, like it or not. If you're not wearing the most 1337 gear and e-peening, then "urdoinitwrong." Individuality and play style preferences outside of the status quo are taboo. Do I sound bitter?
Table-top RPG's put more emphasis on player-choice, story, and all around socialization. While there are many table-top RPG players and DM's who sort of mirror the "xp grind", the mandate of absolute efficiency is a lot more relaxed. This is mostly due to being familiar with the people at your table, or at least more personable if it happens to be a PBP game. You aren't just thrown into the mix with random strangers whom you'll never see again after the objective is reached for whatever mission, quest, xp party, etc.
I think internet anonymity adds an extra layer to allowing selfishness, e-peening and an overall jerk attitude, which doesn't fly at a table of friends and acquaintances. Sometimes these habit developed in MMO's carries over to the table-top, and horror stories and gaming urban legends are born.
In short, table-top gaming involves friends(at least of some sort).
MMO's, you're going to run into these people most of the time, if you aren't careful. Sometimes, they show up at your game table, too.
I wonder how many people here realize the average age of wow players is arround 30. A 2005 study put it at 28, and if it followed the general paterns of the rest of the video game industry, it has gone up some since then.The problem is that I'm betting that, despite the average age, you still have a larger percentage of younger players involved in MMOs than you do in traditional RPGs.
I wouldn't take that bet ever. In the past few months (my friend opened a FLGS in January), I have met dozens of new RPG players under 25. College students make up a huge portion of the gaming populous, and an even larger percentage of those who have the time to spend regularly. They don't make up the largest percentage of the spending populous though, which if I had to guess was people in their late 20s, early 30s, since they have jobs and the first time have disposable income. Interestingly enough, those populations also make up some of the largest populations in MMOs. I'm guessing the <18 crowd in video games is a smaller percentage than you think, based off of the latest demographic data I have seen. 20 and under only makes up ~15-20% of the WoW demographic if that site I quoted earlier is correct in stating the average age was ~28 and the standard dev was ~8.
I did try WoW for about a week back in 2008 and was bored to tears killing dagger fodder for quest items over and over. Not really my thing.
The only MMO I've ever played with any level of dedication is D&D Online. I enjoy DDO, but it is very grindy and advancement is a bit slow for me to play it more than once a week. The better parts of the game world are very immersive and inspiring, however - enough so that I picked up a copy of the City of Stormreach sourcebook for future use in a tabletop game.
(I'm very much looking forward to Star Wars: The Old Republic, however. The teaser video is FANTASTIC.)
The majority of my Pathfinder players are also MMO players - mostly World of Warcraft, though a few have dipped into Rifts of late. Most of them are pretty competent role players, but they do enjoy combat, so I try to throw in at least one good "red meat" fight every session of play.
I've had other random MMO players join me for house games and one-shot scenarios, and they were pretty exclusively into the combat portion of the experience, with no desire for characterization or interaction with NPCs - Dwarf have axe, dwarf see goblin, dwarf smash. I've also noticed that most of these gamers vastly preferred D&D 4E to PFRPG, and they gravitate toward organized play events like Encounters, which generally have minimal focus on RP - and that's NOT how I like to run 4E.
So, my experience with MMO players is half and half, here - some of them embrace the spirit of tabletop games, others just wanna bash stuff. It's about on par with the behavioral ratios you find among native tabletop gamers, really. *shrug*
Why does this happen? First of all, many groups of experienced players have been playing together for some time. They have an established bond, culture, and traditions that an outsider might have a hard time adjusting to. Additionally, an outsider might be neglected and left to themselves.
That can be true regardless of whether the newcomer comes from a computer gaming background and this is their first tabletop game or if they have played pen-and-paper games since AD&D. Our current group has been together for somewhere around 6 years and during that time we've become friends as well as fellow gamers.
With all of that history I know that we have our own customs, inside jokes, and even language to some extent. I would imagine that someone joining our group would find that history very intimidating. If the new person is also new to tabletop role playing games, I'd think that the intimidation value would be ratcheted up even further.
As an existing player in the group, I think it's important make a concerted effort to reach out to a newcomer and try to make them feel welcome. If that involves ignoring some MMO terms and overlooking an inherent need to maximize characters, that's a relatively small price. If they're honestly interested in learning how to play and see the examples of how the existing players run their characters, things should adjust themselves over time.
Plus there may even be some things us experienced gamers can learn from the "kids."
So, my experience with MMO players is half and half, here - some of them embrace the spirit of tabletop games, others just wanna bash stuff. It's about on par with the behavioral ratios you find among native tabletop gamers, really. *shrug*
This.
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In short, table-top gaming involves friends(at least of some sort).
MMO's, you're going to run into these people most of the time, if you aren't careful. Sometimes, they show up at your game table, too.
That is so true.
There is also a difference in sensory stimulus between the two types of games, and I think that makes a big difference for a few players. Some people just can't imagine much more then what they can see and have trouble mentally visualizing the game if all they have is a battle mat and miniatures. Things become worse when they are not in a battle situation and the only input they have is the GM's descriptions of the world around them. This problem is even worse if the GM is bad a describing the different elements in the game.
That type of person, I believe, would become more prone to treating D&D like an MMO. Because they have trouble with imagining the world their character is in, they would fall back onto what they know. They will be less prone to role play, because that takes the most amount of imagination, and more prone to hack and slash.
However, I have only seen this happen a couple times. I am finding new players are often less creative (they often recreate their favorite character from a move or anime,) but their imagination is almost always on par with more experienced players.
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Plus there may even be some things us experienced gamers can learn from the "kids."
So true. I have a few people I play with that are new players that are always surprising me. I taught them the game by telling them my number one rule was that they shouldn't worry about if they can or cannot do something. It was my job to worry about that, and if they wanted to do something they only had to say so and then let me explain how it would work or not work.
This has been taken to the extreme at times, but is always entertaining and a learning experience. It also took away the idea of the game being a hack and slash game. The players now had a challenge, try to find out what they couldn't do. Some might think this was wrong, but the players were respectful enough to push things too far and I was good about helping them from acting outside of their alignment and abilities. Most of the time I would just set high DCs, make it possible if only by a slim margin.
So those doors that normally would be set pieces in an MMO were now available for exploration.
Some of the things these new players wanted to do:
- Chuck corpses of their enemies at their enemies.
- Throw weapons like great axes or long swords.
- Shoot the chain of the amulet the bad guy was wearing so it would fall off.
- Poke witches in the eye. (The witch was trying to help them.)
- Bluff their way out of every situation.
In my experience in MMO's, unless you are playing exclusively solo or with close friends, then you are expected to min/max to MAXIMUM efficiency at ALL TIMES, or you will be brutally punished(made fun of in groups, avoided or banned from participating in events, basically driven from the game, etc). "Role-playing" has nothing to do with playing out your character's life, it means playing a "role" in whatever group you are in to accomplish tasks with maximum efficiency(tank, damage dealer, healer, etc). These games turn into little more than a rat race of grind xp, get better loot to grind better xp, to get better loot to grind better xp, repeat ad nauseum. You are not your character, you're a cog in the machine. If your class happens to use Great axes the best, guess what? You're going to use a Great axe, like it or not. If you're not wearing the most 1337 gear and e-peening, then "urdoinitwrong." Individuality and play style preferences outside of the status quo are taboo. Do I sound bitter?
I've had this experience, too. When I play DDO, I do it with two of my close friends from my tabletop group and another guy who plays a LOT of MMOs. I get no end of crap from the non-TTRPG'er about under-optimizing my characters because of my feat choices, spells known, and/or class build. Often, the attitude is one of, "Your personal choices about what makes the game fun are detrimental to my performance and hence killing my fun". That's an attitude I DON'T want to see creep into tabletop gaming, and it irks me to no end to hear some people (certain posters on these very boards among them) apply the same logic to TTRPGs.
SIDE NOTE: On DDO, I have a Dwarf Sorcerer 7/Favored Soul 1/Fighter 1 that annoys the hardcore MMO crowd to no end - particularly because I'm quite effective when I play the character, and it defies their conviction that multiclassing in DDO is badwrongfun. (Add usernames Ekatheon and Agram on Thelanis server if you feel like playing!)
In my experience in MMO's, unless you are playing exclusively solo or with close friends, then you are expected to min/max to MAXIMUM efficiency at ALL TIMES, or you will be brutally punished(made fun of in groups, avoided or banned from participating in events, basically driven from the game, etc). "Role-playing" has nothing to do with playing out your character's life, it means playing a "role" in whatever group you are in to accomplish tasks with maximum efficiency(tank, damage dealer, healer, etc). These games turn into little more than a rat race of grind xp, get better loot to grind better xp, to get better loot to grind better xp, repeat ad nauseum. You are not your character, you're a cog in the machine. If your class happens to use Great axes the best, guess what? You're going to use a Great axe, like it or not. If you're not wearing the most 1337 gear and e-peening, then "urdoinitwrong." Individuality and play style preferences outside of the status quo are taboo. Do I sound bitter?I've had this experience, too. When I play DDO, I do it with two of my close friends from my tabletop group and another guy who plays a LOT of MMOs. I get no end of crap from the non-TTRPG'er about under-optimizing my characters because of my feat choices, spells known, and/or class build. Often, the attitude is one of, "Your personal choices about what makes the game fun are detrimental to my performance and hence killing my fun". That's an attitude I DON'T want to see creep into tabletop gaming, and it irks me to no end to hear some people (certain posters on these very boards among them) apply the same logic to TTRPGs.
SIDE NOTE: On DDO, I have a Dwarf Sorcerer 7/Favored Soul 1/Fighter 1 that annoys the hardcore MMO crowd to no end - particularly because I'm quite effective when I play the character, and it defies their conviction that multiclassing in DDO is badwrongfun. (Add usernames Ekatheon and Agram on Thelanis server if you feel like playing!)
Most of my negative comments draw from Final Fantasy XI, and yes, I still play it. I gave up on the rate race for e-peen glory, and just play for fun with my wife, brother, and some other real-world friends. I tried DDO a little bit, but didn't really care for it. I might give it a go as long as it's free to play.
In my experience in MMO's, unless you are playing exclusively solo or with close friends, then you are expected to min/max to MAXIMUM efficiency at ALL TIMES, or you will be brutally punished(made fun of in groups, avoided or banned from participating in events, basically driven from the game, etc). "Role-playing" has nothing to do with playing out your character's life, it means playing a "role" in whatever group you are in to accomplish tasks with maximum efficiency(tank, damage dealer, healer, etc). These games turn into little more than a rat race of grind xp, get better loot to grind better xp, to get better loot to grind better xp, repeat ad nauseum. You are not your character, you're a cog in the machine. If your class happens to use Great axes the best, guess what? You're going to use a Great axe, like it or not. If you're not wearing the most 1337 gear and e-peening, then "urdoinitwrong." Individuality and play style preferences outside of the status quo are taboo. Do I sound bitter?
Let me tell you, if I were in a fantasy world and my life depended on whether my fellow party members and I made smart decisions in our training and outfitting, you bet I'd be upset with one of them if they were relying on training or equipment that is less than optimal.