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The title sums it up nicely. I have pretty much already decided not to create a feat that allows one of my player's rogue character to intimidate mindless undead. There are a few reasons why I won't be doing this but I would still love to hear other views about how fair I am being and whether or not other GMs out there would have made the same decision.
1st - Allowing a rogue to intimidate mindless undead, even if the feat justifies it by describing some positive energy use, just seems to be stepping on the cleric's toes. The feat as imagined so far would basically grant unlimited uses of turn undead, by the rogue.
2nd - The implacability of mindless undead just seems too classic a trope to turn it on it's head so casually.
3rd - Given the nature of the first couple chapters of CC, this ability could be pretty unbalancing.
Now, I understand that the player wants a character they feel is effective and valuable, and I want that for them. I am more than ready to allow them restructure the character into something they feel is more effective. First of course, I want to make sure they understand that there are and will be more opportunities for social skill use.
What do you other GMs think?
Shane
You made the right call, no reason to give it to him other then a power boost (not that wasting your turn intimidating is all that optimal) tell him to work toward the rogue talent major magic and grab chill touch
Edit: im not actually sure how you could talk to an undead for a min anyway
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If it was just Mindless Undead that were immune to fear, maybe I'd let it slide... probably not still, but anyway...
I'd say No pretty firmly. Tell him to grab UMD and a few scrolls of Control Undead, that's about as close as he's getting.
I don't mind fudging the rules a bit, especially at the cost of a feat, but that ability is too far-reaching. You'll likely regret it pretty quickly if you let him do it, especially if Undead are being featured pretty frequently in your campaign.
However, there's always the option of allowing it temporarily. We're all just speculating here, really, so it could be perfectly balanced and just SEEM to be OMG-POWERFUL.
tl;dr: Would I allow it? Nope. Would I allow it with the condition that I can change my mind if it gets too crazy? Certainly.
For the price of a feat, I would probably allow him to intimidate intelligent undead, as they might actually be able to faked out like that. Mindless undead like zombies and skeletons, forget it, they can barely handle simple instructions. Intimidation would go right over their comprehension level. Perhaps a second feat with the prereq of the first to intimidate mindless undead.
here is what i would do to fix the rogue (for free)
remove immunity and resistance to sneak attack across the board, whether through conditions, creature type, armor property or spell effect. nothing should ever be able to negate a primary class feature. especially one that is so highly specialized in use.
treat the rogue as automatically sneak attacking, regardless of circumstances and allow sneak attack to multiply on a critical hit or even by means of vital strike. sneak attack may as well be a permanent bonus as far as i am concerned.
allow multiple applicable rogue talents to affect a single sneak attack
Sorcerers with the undead bloodline can affect undead with mind controling spells....
if THAT type of character wanted to try the intimidate against skeletons' I'd probably support it. It's thematic with what they already have going on.
Likewise if this rogue dipped into sorcerer,I'd probably give it to him too... but since nobody ELSE can [fear] a skeleton, I wouldn't give it to a standard rogue...
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here is what i would do to fix the rogue (for free)
remove immunity and resistance to sneak attack across the board, whether through conditions, creature type, armor property or spell effect. nothing should ever be able to negate a primary class feature. especially one that is so highly specialized in use.
treat the rogue as automatically sneak attacking, regardless of circumstances and allow sneak attack to multiply on a critical hit or even by means of vital strike. sneak attack may as well be a permanent bonus as far as i am concerned.
allow multiple applicable rogue talents to affect a single sneak attack
This seems awfully drastic, and contrary to the intended tone of the game in many ways.
Golems are all but immune to spells. Spells are a primary class feature of... well, quite a lot of classes actually. Should golems loose this ability? Without it, I'm suddenlty not very afraid of them anymore.
Swarms are immune to weapon damage as well as many combat maneuvers. I would argue that these things are both major features of the Fighter. Should swarms loose this ability? For that matter, swarms being immune to sneak attack makes an awful lot of sense.
Immunities to certain things are what make some powerful enemies so powerful. Some enemies force certain classes to come up with different ways to deal with the situation. Playing a Rogue and battling something immune to Sneak Attack? There's a good chance you've got Use Magic Device, so whip out a wand or scroll and toss some spells. Does it have high AC? Use the "Aid Another" action to help the fighter land a hit.
This isn't a JRPG on the Nintendo. You have options beyond selecting "Attack" and waving your sword at the goblin standing on the other side of the screen.
This isn't a JRPG on the Nintendo. You have options beyond selecting "Attack" and waving your sword at the goblin standing on the other side of the screen.
Just because Shuriken Nekogami is unpopular doesn't mean you can flick your dial up to maximum condescension.
You made the right call, no reason to give it to him other then a power boost (not that wasting your turn intimidating is all that optimal) tell him to work toward the rogue talent major magic and grab chill touch
+1. Chill Touch is a good compromise if he's really keen on the idea (and it's not a bad rogue talent to pick up anyway).
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FYI, there are these feats:
"Undead Empathy
Type: General
Source: Eberron Campaign Setting
You are adept at communicating with and influencing the undead.
Prerequisite: Charisma 13
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Diplomacy checks made to influence the reactions of intelligent undead. You can also use Diplomacy to influence the actions of mindless undead, though in this case you do not gain the +4 bonus on your check. Generally, mindless undead begin an encounter with a hostile attitude; a Diplomacy check sufficient to make them indifferent is usually enough to stave off attack. If the undead have been specifically commanded to guard something, a Diplomacy check sufficient to make them friendly is required to make them back off from combat, and a check sufficient to make them helpful is needed to make them abandon what they are guarding.
To influence the behavior of a mindless undead, the character and the undead must be within 30 feet of one another. Generally, influencing an undead in this way takes 1 minute, but as with influencing the living, it might take more or less time."
"Ice Water in your Veins (Wild West Feats II)
You are fearless.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13+, Iron Will, character level 11th+.
Benefit: You are immune to all fear effects and Intimidate checks."
I would allow the feat you were thinking about creating, with the caveat that it might not always work as some baddies might have Ice Water. (Our players don't invest too much in Intimidate due to Ice Water.)
Just because Shuriken Nekogami is unpopular doesn't mean you can flick your dial up to maximum condescension.
This isn't a JRPG on the Nintendo. You have options beyond selecting "Attack" and waving your sword at the goblin standing on the other side of the screen.
That didn't seem particulary condescending to me, it makes a point though.. maybe I read too little into it
Aside from that, I really do not like the 'fixes' Neko suggested, I'd like the solution to be more roguish. Maybe an option to enhance the damage a rogue can do with a single attack for additional SA benefits, additional dice, more ability damage and the like, much like vital strike but usable for SA, to make feinting and spring attack powerful options.
A 12th level rogue could make a single attack for 1d4 (dagger) +12d6 (SA) and possibly double strength damage after feinting or moving into position...
anyway, I just realized the thread is not about that.. intimidate would not work on undead in my campaign without decent fluff and have a hard time seeing it related at all to the intimidate skill. A feat to give limited cleric abilities might be interesting with proper fluff, the rogue might be a 'priest' of the faith, though not really a cleric he might get a small measure of divine power for his devotion and conviction.
This isn't a JRPG on the Nintendo. You have options beyond selecting "Attack" and waving your sword at the goblin standing on the other side of the screen.
Nintendo? The Nineties have just called, they want their games back.
Nintendo has been out of the JRPG deal for quite some time. The Super Nintendo/ Super Famicom was pretty much the last console that had those. I mean, we're talking Final Fantasy here. When Nintendo blew off the disc drive deal with Sony and they decided to do their own console (with blackjack! And hookers!), they managed to get Square away from Nintendo and do their games for PS only, baiting them with whole compact discs worth of space for proper music and video cut scenes and all that.
Seriously, if you want to be a jerk and insult someone, at least don't embarrass yourself.
remove immunity and resistance to sneak attack across the board, whether through conditions, creature type, armor property or spell effect. nothing should ever be able to negate a primary class feature. especially one that is so highly specialized in use.
No. It's not as if the immunities are commonplace. It's mostly incorporeal critters, elementals, and other stuff that is totally amorphous. That all makes sense. These creatures don't have any weak spots to speak of, so precision damage or critical hits really don't help.
And the items/spells that help you against that aren't that wide-spread, either. And most only give you a partial immunity (no more than 75% for the really expensive stuff).
treat the rogue as automatically sneak attacking, regardless of circumstances
But it's not something automatic. It's sneak attack. Doesn't make sense that you can doe it all the time.
Plus, that would make it too powerful.
and allow sneak attack to multiply on a critical hit or even by means of vital strike.
Again, it's a balance thing. Extra sneak attack on crits would be too good. I could see crits automatically being sneak attack (maybe with a rogue talent), since we're talking about blows to sensitive places.
Rogues aren't warriors. That's why they don't get abilities that are as good, or even better, than the abilities warriors get. (Warrior meaning class with full BAB here, not the NPC class of the same name).
The title sums it up nicely. I have pretty much already decided not to create a feat that allows one of my player's rogue character to intimidate mindless undead. There are a few reasons why I won't be doing this but I would still love to hear other views about how fair I am being and whether or not other GMs out there would have made the same decision.
Intimidating mindless undead makes no sense at all. They're mindless. They don't know fear. They don't know pride. They don't know anything.
It's like trying to intimidate the enemy's sword - the normal, non-magical, metal kind. Or a simple rock. You can't intimidate a rock. You can't intimidate a mundane sword. And you can't intimidate a zombie.
Clerics can't do it either. They either heal or harm them. When they get a certain feat, they can do something that looks like they intimidate/scare them, but it's not really that. It's more that they disrupt their energy flow using the negative energy they can channel thanks to their divine power. And they can do that only a few times per day.
I could see a feat that allows a rogue to manipulate a bit of that energy a few times per day, doing something similar to Rebuke Undead.
Intimidate shouldn't work on mindless creatures. An ability called "demoralize" should be a morale effect. To demoralize someone means to destroy their morale. Since mindless creatures are immune to morale effects, they should also be immune to demoralize.
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A.) I apologize. I was not trying to be condescending, I was trying to make a joke with a little bit of snark to it... You know, the sort of thing that's almost ubiquitous on these boards, and not uncommon from some of the people rebuking me but I digress. It was meant in good humor, but it was late and I'd just finished slogging through an hour of stats homework and it seems I came off a bit more vitriolic than I intended. If I insulted you Shuriken Nekogami, I am sorry.
B.) For the record KaeYoss: I was *specifically* refrencing the aesthetics of JRPGs on the Nintendo or Super Nintendo which I *realize* are old. Next time I unsuccessfully make a joke, I'll remember to refrence something more current.
a rogue's biggest weakness is that sneak attack is so difficult to set up and so easy to negate. and when you play with weekly william, no matter how melee heavy the party is. sneak attack is almost never going to happen.
casters already have options for harming golems, some of which are nasty against everything else, like glitterdust.
swarms might need to be changed to take half weapon damage.
but as far as i am concerned. an amorphous blob also has weak points, it is just one giant weak point.
A.) I apologize. I was not trying to be condescending, I was trying to make a joke with a little bit of snark to it... You know, the sort of thing that's almost ubiquitous on these boards, and not uncommon from some of the people rebuking me but I digress.
Piece of advice: Use emoticons. You can't confer tone of voice in text. Doesn't matter if you write it intending to make it sound like it was all in good fun, it might be read in a tone of a guy foaming at the mouth, wildly waving a razor around. :P (<-see?)
A :) or ;) or :P or ;P or 0:) or ^5^ or }> or.... you get the drift - those little sideway faces will convey the playful, goodnatured tone.
B.) For the record KaeYoss: I was *specifically* refrencing the aesthetics of JRPGs on the Nintendo or Super Nintendo which I *realize* are old. Next time I unsuccessfully make a joke, I'll remember to refrence something more current.
Don't forget that there are people around here who only ever saw a SNES (not to mention a NES) on pictures. They might have played some of the games - on an emulator), but if you tell them that there was a time when Final Fantasy did not have stunning cut scenes and female characters that induce salivating the way only Pavlov's bell usually can, they'd look at you like a dog who's just been shown a card trick. Then they ask you why'd you play, then. (Those cutscenes are really popular ;-))
Yes, we're talking about people who think it's a real bother that those Final Fantasy games take several months to come out outside of Japan. If you tell them that some of those games were never released outside of Japan, you get the card trick dog face again. Unless you're dealing with one of those guys who are younger than the average FF hero but know everything about all the games, drink Potions (they really did make real-life sodas under that label) and own all the action figures.
Oh my, do I really sound that old? I just realised I was just about to rant about how bad things were back then, when you had to write down codes to pick up the game where you left up - if you didn't have to start back at 0 every time you played. Or when you died.
Where was I? Oh yeah, Vanille is hot. No, that wasn't it. Paradigm Shift! Paradigm Shift!
a rogue's biggest weakness is that sneak attack is so difficult to set up and so easy to negate. and when you play with weekly william, no matter how melee heavy the party is. sneak attack is almost never going to happen.
My experience is quite different. Flanking is quite easy to accomplish. That glitterdust you mention can blind the target, which makes everyone invisible. And if everything else fails, feint.
And even if it were hard to set up, that doesn't mean it should be automatic. It means that one somewhat extreme is replaced by an extreme extreme. And that's usually a bad idea.
an amorphous blob also has weak points, it is just one giant weak point.
Okay. Let's assume that blobs are all weak spot. Every attack against them is a sneak attack and critical. Since you cannot hit them non-critical. That means in order to compensate, they're going to get 2-3 times the amount of HP as normal - HP is one of the benchmark stats that get guidelines depending on the CR.
What we have now is some extra rules, we need to tell that those critters are always critted, so there's no cause for alarm for the huge number of HP, we need to remind monster creators that they need to take it into account, and so on.
Too much work. Just keep the normal HP and make them immune to crits. Same end result, less work.
a rogue's biggest weakness is that sneak attack is so difficult to set up and so easy to negate. and when you play with weekly william, no matter how melee heavy the party is. sneak attack is almost never going to happen.My experience is quite different. Flanking is quite easy to accomplish. That glitterdust you mention can blind the target, which makes everyone invisible. And if everything else fails, feint.
And even if it were hard to set up, that doesn't mean it should be automatic. It means that one somewhat extreme is replaced by an extreme extreme. And that's usually a bad idea.
AGREED....
My Rogue is ALWAYS getting his sneak attacks in. Coming from 2E it is AMAZING how often he gets to use this ability.
Remember back then, you could only backstab ONCE per combat, Then the enemy knew you were there and it couldn't be used anymore...
With the exception of our pixie who was naturally invisible... SHE was able to exploit it quite a bit... But NORMAL characters... useless.
a rogue's biggest weakness is that sneak attack is so difficult to set up and so easy to negate. and when you play with weekly william, no matter how melee heavy the party is. sneak attack is almost never going to happen.
casters already have options for harming golems, some of which are nasty against everything else, like glitterdust.
swarms might need to be changed to take half weapon damage.
but as far as i am concerned. an amorphous blob also has weak points, it is just one giant weak point.
set up sneak pretty easy it round 2 where I have a problem. AC & HP make it though the rebuttal.