On a related note, I'm not sure just how overt a bard's performance effects are. Would, for example, the target of a suggestion or fear performance that met their DC know you tried to mess with their mind, or would they just be unmoved by your oratory/song/dance?
I'm not sure theres an official rule for that, but I'd say if they just made the save then they wouldn't know.
If they made it by 5 or 10 higher than necessary, then yeah, maybe.
The temple sword is in the APG (so all the relevant stats are available by clicking the PRD link on this site, even if you don't have the book) and is specifically a 'monk' weapon. I hardly think having a jerk DM is something that specifically limits the Geisha above all others... ;)
I forgot that it's there as well. There have been too many reprints and revisions of all those weapons.
I went and looked it up in the APG, and it seems that monks actually do get proficiency in that weapon.
Still, it's non-core, and clearly better than other monk weapons. We actually found an instance of power creep.
I wouldn't call a GM who considered this thing off-limits for geishas a jerk, though.
AC is AC - and that's exactly what you're losing... until you get someone to cast Mage Armour on you, or get those Bracers of Armour, or whatever... Yes, being proficient in, and able to cast in, armour is better than not - of course it is - but it's hardly a game-breaker for a Bard unless you plan to play that Bard like a Fighter.
Mage Armour is a flat +4. Same as a non-magical chain shirt. A magical one will be up to 5 better. And a magical elven chain will be up to 7 better.
Bracers of armour are basically the enhancement bonus of the armour, without the base armour bonus. That means that if you get the bracers and someone else gets light armour, the light armour guy will be about 4 points ahead with his AC. Sure, the bracers go up to 8, so the difference between those and the best light armour (elven chain +5) is only 3, but the bracers are still a lot more expensive (64k for that +8 against 30k for that +11)The bard's AC will be worse than the fighter's. But that doesn't mean it's irrelevant. The bard might not be quite as much in the fray as the fighter, but that doesn't mean he never will be.
The loss of armour demotes the bard from a secondary warrior to a tertiary one.
And the Geisha can still do everything - she just trades some AC for being a better 'face'. So the question remains (if rephrased slightly) - how much focus do you put on each aspect of the Bard class?
The answer remains: I balance things. I don't usually (if you can call it that - I only ever played one bard. Might play more in the future, but that's in the future) focus them on one aspect or ignore another.
The bards I've seen played by others have interestingly focused more on combat than mine did.
Personally, I am looking primarily at everything. Why be a bard, i.e. a jack-of-all-trades, when you are not doing everything.Of course its a trade-off.
All the archetypes are. They substitute some things for others, that make you a better specialist in that area, at the cost of something else
The thing here is that you give up more than you get. You lose knowledge AND combat to gain charm. The trade-off between knowledge and charm would be about equal. With the loss of combat to boot, it's off-balance.
The thing here is that you give up more than you get. You lose knowledge AND combat to gain charm. The trade-off between knowledge and charm would be about equal. With the loss of combat to boot, it's off-balance.
Personally, I am looking primarily at everything. Why be a bard, i.e. a jack-of-all-trades, when you are not doing everything.Of course its a trade-off.
All the archetypes are. They substitute some things for others, that make you a better specialist in that area, at the cost of something else
Hmm, you could say the tea ceremony and the scribe scroll feat replace the armor proficincies.
However the more I think about it the more I have to agree that this is a bad trade-off.
Scribe Scroll is very limited, considering you actually have to know the spell you want to scribe, its not enough to have it on your spelllist. And bards know only a very limited amount of spells. And can cast them spontanously already, so making scrolls out of them isn't such a huge help.
If they could actually scribe any spell on their spelllist, then it could be a huge bonus, but not like this.
And the tea ceremony, while fun and full of flavor is too situational to warrant the loss of armor.
Unfortunately Mage Armor doesn't seem to stack with Bracers of Armor (both are "armor bonus"), so you can't use mage armor to replace the MW Chainshirt and the Bracers for the enhancement.
Hmm, I can kinda agree with that assessment. The geisha, from the armor/weapon proficiency, loses:
- AP (light)
- shield proficiency
- partial WP (martial), EWP (whip)
- no ASF in light armor/shield => we can approximate this as arcane armor training/mastery, although even with those two feats the bardic ability is superior as it requires no action and doesn't cap at 20% (non-mithral chain shirt and light shield).
EWP (whip) is quite situational, and even the partial WP is less than a full feat, so let's handwave it and say the geisha archetype loses around four feats and a half. It gets one item creation feat and a specific ability enhancing performances, which I can rougly estimate at a feat as well. The feats lost are feats most bards use; the feats obtained are somewhat situational. Considering overall parity of the other abilities (BK vs GK), it isn't a very good deal.
Now, I'm not saying it's too weak, and in the right circumstances the weaknesses can be made into strengths, but I do admit it would be fair if the Geisha archetype got a bit more.
Hmm, you could say the tea ceremony and the scribe scroll feat replace the armor proficincies.However the more I think about it the more I have to agree that this is a bad trade-off.
That's my disingenuous way of changing your mind for you. The Imentesh taught me well. ;-P
Scribe Scroll is very limited, considering you actually have to know the spell you want to scribe, its not enough to have it on your spelllist. And bards know only a very limited amount of spells. And can cast them spontanously already, so making scrolls out of them isn't such a huge help.
That's what I said earlier. One of the great uses of scribe scroll is that you can scribe some scrolls of spells you only use occasionally, so they don't clutter up your spell slots. That doesn't work for bards.
And the tea ceremony, while fun and full of flavor is too situational to warrant the loss of armor.
One more of the things I said. My mind replacement techniques taught to me by the protean sweet-talkers works better than I thought! :D
Anyway, the ceremony is almost too situational for anything. A good idea would be to either speed the ceremony up, or alternatively, let you "store" the benefit for a number of hours, to activate it for its 10 minutes when you need it.
That's my disingenuous way of changing your mind for you. The Imentesh taught me well. ;-P
They did indeed :)
Well, to be fair, at the beginning the discussion was "tea ceremony is crap, and never useful", back there I argued that it can be extended to an hour or so, and might have a use, but would be very situational.
Also "The Geisha can't do anything that a vanilla bard can't do either", which also is wrong, they have more social competence, and can probably get their diplomacy skill higher than almost everyone else (and with the use of perfom (sing), their Bluff and Sense Motive as well)
I'm pretty sure I never actually said anywhere I thought the whole thing was a fair deal. If it sounded like that, then someone secretly edited my post and made it look like that. :)
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I will agree that the geisha isn't for everyone. And if put in a gladiator arena against a standard bard, she is at a disadvantage.
But I really disagree that 'Tea Ceremony' is "to situational". Obviously it's not a great idea to start one in the midst of combat; but what about any time else? Preparing for that mummy you're about to release? Cleric is casting less restoration on everyone, wizard is prepping his spell order. Fighter is chugging some potions, you're starting a tea ceremony for inspire courage.
Not everyone needs the buff, just the warrior and wizard (touch attacks). So that's 8 rounds of performance down. Now she is free to use other bardic performances when the combat starts. Furthermore, when it turns out the creature was a mummified medusa, the poor Geisha who is trying to knowledge-nobility, "wtf?" check, manages to get 'stoned' in the first round. the rest of the party is suddenly very happy to have the tea bonus instead of a standard song.
But I really disagree that 'Tea Ceremony' is "to situational". Obviously it's not a great idea to start one in the midst of combat; but what about any time else?
I'd say that there aren't too many things that allow you 10 minutes of preparation within 10 minutes of them happening.
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I'd say that there aren't too many things that allow you 10 minutes of preparation within 10 minutes of them happening.
But I really disagree that 'Tea Ceremony' is "to situational". Obviously it's not a great idea to start one in the midst of combat; but what about any time else?
Seems like we have 'rest stops' every good bit in our games. Then again I am running an AP atm, so my perspective may be skewed. But I think games are more likely to have periodic breaks than to have the general plot of crank.
I think I'd be also tempted to have a geisha as a cohort at local power center to turn keys and wheels for me. She has the skills to make things work even while below APL.
Geisha's not terrible, though you need the right game. But Tea Ceremony...I feel like the prep time is too long for it to be used in any combat situation, while the bluff lasts too short a time to be useful in extended negotiations or many other courtly situations.
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The perceived loss of weapon-power for the Geisha is a fallicy, IMHO.
You already know you're not going to be using a shield, and we all know that a spare hand is a waste in combat. So the Geisha goes with the longspear as primary weapon of choice: 1d8 damage (+ 2-hander Strength bonus), x3 Critical damage, brace, and reach. Compared to the usual Bard longsword or rapier it's a better weapon anyway... it's just you can't use a shield (or off-hand weapon) with it... If you want to go two-weapon fighting, then the monk weapons offer a good selection.
The biggest loss, to my mind, is the whip proficiency, 'cos support characters spamming ranged disarms and trips can be very effective. But it's hardly the universal weapon of choice for Bard builds.
If you're really worried about not having good enough weapons, then most of the races offer nice options anyway. An elf Geisha with the Dreamspeaker alternate racial trait looks like an interesting build, and gets to use long and short bows, longsword, and rapiers anyway just by being an elf. A half-elf Geisha can choose the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait. Dwarves get axes, picks, and hammers. Half-orcs get greataxes and falchions, or flails with the Chain Fighter alternate racial trait. There are plenty of options, really.
The Bardic Knowledge Vs Geisha Knowledge I'd suggest falls in favour of the Geisha, because the skills covered (especially Diplomacy and Perform) tie closer into the class's other abilities (specifically Versatile Performance, and the Countersong / Distraction Bardic Performances) and focus on Charisma, rather than vanilla Bardic Knowledge, which is certainly useful, but is tied to Intelligence. Note that the Geisha doesn't lose the Lore Master class feature - and that feature requires the Bard to have ranks in the related Knowledge skill to benefit from it anyway - so a level 5 Geisha can hit a DC 24 Knowedge check, once per day, of any Knowledge skill she has 1 rank in (assuming she's got no Intelligence modifiers or penalties). Bardic Knowledge + Lore Master allows a vanilla Bard to hit insane check DCs... but how often do really high Knowledge check DCs actually come up in play? IDing a CR 20 monster is just DC 25...
Scribe Scroll is obviously more of a benefit for Wizards (but what isn't?), but with just one rank in Craft (calligraphy) and her Geisha Knowledge bonus to that skill, the Geisha is likely set as far as the skill check to make the things goes. Plus, that 100gp the level 1 vanilla Bard blew on a chain shirt can go on the Geisha scribing herself eight first level scrolls... having enough Charm Person spells available to form your own bodyguard squad at level one is nice...
I can see why people zone-in on the Tea Ceremony thing - it's the glaringly obvious bit of the archetype, but personally I think it's least important part. I can be nice, if you make the effort to use it (and hanging around to pre-buff before 'the last room in the dungeon' was hardly a rare tactic before the Geisha popped up), but the key to the feature is that it doesn't rob you of any of your other Bardic Performance mojo. The other Bard archetypes may all be more flashy at first glance, but they all have to sacrifice something, and generally all the vanilla Bardic Performances are good, solid, things you don't want to give up for (usually) circumstantial bonuses.
Besides... despite the Japanese name for the archetype - the heroine from House of Flying Daggers keeps popping into my head... ;)
After following the discussion for a while, I've decided that my house rule for Geishas going forward will be to make Tea Ceremony last 10 minutes per Geisha level. That neatly fixes the timing problems I have with the ability, allowing the Geisha to calm and center her companions to prepare them for a major endeavor they are about to undertake.
but how often do really high Knowledge check DCs actually come up in play? IDing a CR 20 monster is just DC 25...
Unless it is a rare creature (DC 15+ CR). And let's not forget that higher Knowledge checks yield more information. A result of 25 might tell you a creature's weakness. But a result of 35 might tell you the creature's weakness, immunities, and some abilities.
But still, the geisha is boring- that's why it is so bad. There is nothing unique about it. Instead of being really good at diplomacy (almost always the best in the party), you can be amazingly good at diplomacy. And that's about where the archetype ends.
Every other bard archetype get's something unique- not just a shift in skills. And the Tea Ceremony hardly qualifies. It merely emulates other performances that you already have, and 99 times out of a 100 it is probably better just to use those performances than to use a Tea Ceremony. The Geisha simply doesn't do anything that a regular Bard didn't do already. It does a few things better, a few things worse, but nothing new. And that is why it is boring.
Only as boring as you make it sir! And not any more than regular bard.
Take a court bard. What does it really give you beyond diplomacy reroll? The performances take standard boosting ones and replace them with harmful ones. Overal mechanic effects look somewhat on par except the enemy gets a save to avoid them. And you get get wider area of performance. Nobody's shouting that you don't use these much in cramped rooms.
And yet the court bard is perfect for court playwright and king's jester. Moliére could probably be a good example IMO. Oh and tohose diplomacy rerolls are a cool way to make ammends to the angered bread-givers afterwards probably and could have been developed as a self-defense mechanism :)
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But still, the geisha is boring- that's why it is so bad.
(a) Am I the only one who reads the Tea Ceremony text as giving the effects of various performances without actually using those performances?
In a low-level campaign it's quite potent to have access to 10-minute buffs of any of inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics!
(b) Since the only class features Geisha swaps out are "the normal bard armor and weapon proficiencies" and Bardic Knowledge it combines well with many other bardic archetypes. This is especially nice since tea ceremony can partially "get back" inspire competence when a second archetype swapped it out.
A character could be a Geisha & either Animal Speaker, Dirge Bard, or Sound Striker, buffing her allies with tea ceremony before entering the dungeon to better be able to use rat swarms, undead, or sonic attacks during combat.
A character could be a Geisha & Archivist, using tea ceremony to mimic inspire courage, which then stacks with the naturalist ability.
A character could be a Geisha and either Celebrity or Demagogue, to better intimidate and gather crowds.
A character could be a Geisha & Savage Skald. "What do you mean you don't like my tea!? Aaarg!"
A character could be a Geisha & Songhealer. That's a lot of cohort potential for buffing and healing...
The problem is, it only lasts for 10 minutes.
Yes, thats alot compared to 1 round/performance as the original, but that only takes 1 standart action to start, this one takes 10 minutes.
You can't buff your party before entering the dungeon, because you might walk around for 20 minutes without meeting anything in there. And you can't really keep stopping all the time to rebuff.
Eh. Unless we're in a dungeon my group rarely has two fights in ten minutes. Even in a dungeon it would only be useful on one or two encounters. I've already outlined a way to fix that ability so it could be useful: Have it so you can activate the effect later, with a immediate action, so you could prepare it in the morning, when the group is already replenishing spells, and then activate later on, when it could be useful, deciding the effect when activating.
Only as boring as you make it sir! And not any more than regular bard.
Huh. Guess you're right. She's only a little more boring than the bard. And I don't even like the bard.
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(a) Am I the only one who reads the Tea Ceremony text as giving the effects of various performances without actually using those performances?
I don't really know if that's the case. Because if you interpret that the Tea Ceremony ability allows you to use performances you usually can't access, then wouldn't logic follow that you can use Tea Ceremony to perform the four Bardic Performances at first level? IE you can Inspire Heroics via Tea Ceremony at first level.
I don't know if that was really the intent. But then again, it's not really clear either.
So, the question is: Can a Geisha use Tea Ceremony to perform inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics when...
1. He already has the appropriate performance available through normal means
2. He reaches the appropriate (bard?) level to use said performance, but does not necessarily have that performance.
3. He takes the first level as a Geisha Bard. He can use all of these performances automatically via Tea Ceremony, regardless of level or availability.
Tea Ceremony (Su): By spending 10 minutes preparing an elaborate tea ceremony, a geisha may affect her allies with inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics. The ceremony’s effects last 10 minutes. The geisha must spend 4 rounds of bardic performance for each creature to be affected.
I think that makes it pretty clear that it can be only one type of performance. It, however doesn't anywhere following things.
Can Geisha do anything while preparing the ceremony? (diplomacy and other no action things)
Can the others do anything while the geisha just prepares ceremony? (preparing spells)
Do the others even have to sit about and consume tea? (searching the room for 5 minutes, checking the next corridor, then Geisha calls "Tee is ready my honoured companions!"?)
When does the itself effect start. It really just says that the geisha prepares the ceremony and then the effect lasts 10 minutes.
I didn't consider these before bat RAI here could be different or not. This thing is rather unclear.
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The Tea Ceremony can only be used for the various performances at the usual Bard levels because of the way the text for the various performances is written, rather than the way the text for the Tea Ceremony is written: i.e. they all start off 'A bard of Nth level or higher can...'
Whether a Geisha with an additional Bard archetype (which swaps out the performances used with the Tea Ceremony) can still use the Tea Ceremony with the base performance effects is less clear. By the general archetype text we know the Geisha can't use things like an Animal Speaker's Soothing Performance in the Tea Ceremony just because that ability swapped out her usual Inspire Competence performance, but nothing seems to indicate that she can't still use the Inspire Competence effect with the Tea Ceremony just because her Animal Speaker archetype means she doesn't normally get it anymore. The wording of the Tea Ceremony doesn't indicate the Geisha needs the performances listed, and the wording of the performances themselves only mentiond Bard levels - which she still has. RAW it looks legal, and it probably isn't overpowered to still allow the multi-archetype Geisha to do this. I'm really not sure on RAI - I can see the arguments either way. Personally, I'd allow it.
As a supernatural ability the Tea Ceremony, technically, can't be disrupted in combat and doesn't provoke AoO... but I'd suggest that doing the thing in combat is very much against RAI (and, you know, silly to boot...).
What the Geisha can do whilst preparing the Tea Ceremony is... prepare an elaborate tea ceremony. Talking is also fine, of course, as it generally is (and this isn't a spellcasting effect) - so social interaction skills should work fine.
What the Geisha's allies can do is a lot less clear. Note also that the Geisha herself spends her 10 minutes 'preparing' an elaborate tea ceremony, not 'performing' one...
Compared with, say, the text of the Careful Teamwork perfomance of the Detective archetype in the APG, the Tea Ceremony is kind of nebulous...
It says the Geisha '... may affect her allies with...' which could mean that, instead of the usual 'able to hear / line of sight' range on Bardic Performances, she can affect her allies no matter where they are - which would be seriously powerful. I imagine it would have been called out in the text if this was the intent.
It also doesn't mention when the effects of the Tea Ceremony begin, only that they last 10 minutes... but again, I imagine if there was some sort of built-in delay or trigger after preparing the Tea Ceremony it would have been called out in the text.
There's also no mention of whether affected allies need to see or hear the Tea Ceremony, as would be usual for Bardic Performance. The Tea Ceremony itself seems to specifically not be a type of Bardic Performance, but more a 'modifier' on other performance effects.
I suspect the intent is that the Geisha sits everyone down, spend 10 minutes serving them, and some of her daily performance rounds, and the sheer pleasantness of the cultural experience grants them their extended Bardic Performance bonuses for the next ten minutes after the whole thing is complete. I wouldn't swear that was the designer's intent, however... clarification would be nice on this one (the Tea Ceremony may well be better than I'm assuming!).
I asssume the same for the ceremony, but who knows? For example can the ceremony be prepared and then consumed later in say one minute? I think that would go against the spirit of the ceremony. However the ceremony is supposed to calm one's mind and relive it from the stress. The best place for a tea house is in the middle of the busy street as they say, as the contrast heightens the sensation. What if it was interpreted as a meditative experience from which you could draw strength later?
This particular ability looks like it was shortened...
I don't care too much about tea ceremony, the armor and shields hurt, you can work with the monk and simple weapons, but i really love the skills she gets. She is better at social skills than any other class/archetype out there. My campaign has a lot of social interaction so i love the extra half lvl bonuses.
Here's a hypothetical use of Tea Ceremony in a dungeon: The thief spots a trap. The group has a tea ceremony. The thief gets the bonus from inspire competence and then the geisha (who would have to be lvl 15) would start using inspire heroics while he disables the trap, lol. No, this sucks in dungeons. Much better to give the thief greater heroism and then inspire competence while he works.
One question I that has been bugging me. Can a Geisha Bard inspire competence in herself via Tea Ceremony? Normally she explicitly cannot, but it seems she may be able to with this new ability.
One question I that has been bugging me. Can a Geisha Bard inspire competence in herself via Tea Ceremony?
No, that's the Sake Ceremony. Which also has the benefit of increasing the effective Charisma modifier of everyone you meet.
What makes the geisha fall in my opinion is that she just doesn't seem ro make a good adventurer. You can't stop for ten minutes every time you enter a new room in a dungeon, and even if you can, from a roleplaying standpoint, it would just be weird to have aparty that has five tea ceremonies a day while exploring an underground maze.
I personally like the lotus geisha archetype (from dragon empires primer) better, although its a completely different archetype really. What i dont like about that one though, is she has armor proficiency, and wearing armor seems sort of inappropriate on a geisha.
What makes the geisha fall in my opinion is that she just doesn't seem ro make a good adventurer.What you and others haven't figured out is that she's NOT supposed to be one. At least not in the 10x10 foot room orc on a chest bit. Any more than the aristocrat, or the expert. She's the perfect fit if you are playing a campaign that's modeled after L5R.
Crab Clan geishas can shatter skulls betwixt their bosoms and quaff the finest drink with even the most stuffy of Crane's.
These pampered wenches you call "geisha" have no place near my walls.