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Just for a bit of background:
I'm embarking on a semi-conversion of Ravenloft to PF rules for a campaign I intend to run next fall. I'll be running the Grand Conjunction modules with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
I'll be converting most stuff on the fly, as it's something that comes rather easy to me. Other than it being something I want to run, I'm doing this to reciprocate for my DM of some 7 years now who did the same thing and brought Dark Sun back to life for his players, not once but twice.
We get about 2-2 1/2 hours of real play in every week, along with probably the same amount of shenanigans and tomfoolery. We tend to be very casual and not take the game too seriously, but nonetheless most of us have a solid mind towards optimization, thus it ends up being hack and slash. This will be the first time I'll run for this group of friends. Where we play is not particularly conducive to the ambiance of Ravenloft, but c'est la vie.
To lend some sense of danger or dread to the game, I won't award experience so no one feels they have to fight an encounter to progress in an adventure. Furthermore I'll keep track of hit points and simply describe the action, so at the very least the players fear for their characters lives.
I'm wondering if the Inquisitor class is just simply TOO good for a Ravenloft game. I fear it might dominate combat, roleplaying, and investigative challenges with its abilities. Any thoughts?
Also, any other advice about conversion or running Ravenloft, specifically in Pathfinder? Any other core class pitfalls I should avoid?
If you don't already have it, check out the "Mistfinder (Pathfinder for Ravenloft)" thread in this (Conversions) forum. Technically, it's still a WIP, but it's extremely good.
I'm not sure what the problem with either Paladins or Inquisitors is in Ravenloft.
One thing I like about Ravenloft is that it is not entirely black. There is black and white and shades of grey. Paladins fit in great in the setting as knights trying to overcome the evil the permeates the land, doing what they can to protect the innocent and the sort of innocent, while being a beacon to guide the others to the path of righteousness.
I put my own flavor on the setting by, among other things, making a campaign secret that paladins and innocents are those who, last time they died, could actually have left the plane if they had wanted to, but instead chose to be reborn so they could show other people the way out. Of course, after being reborn, they forgot all that.
As for Inquisitors, I am not sure what the issue is. Looking at the picture of that green chick, it looks like she'd fit in great in Ravenloft. Unless there is a balance issue I don't know about, where an Inquisitor could be a one man army, I don't see a problem.
Pathfinder characters are going to be more powerful than 3rd edition D&D characters -- that is how they are designed. But Ravenloft is not Call of Cthulhu, where PCs are besieged by forces way beyond their abilities. The Darklords should be unassailable, but there should be conflicts appropriate to their level.
One of my ideas for a Ravenloft adventure was a near-epic adventure in which a town was being attacked by an awakened great whale with about 20 levels of Druid. The idea was that the PCs had to prevent the great whale from becoming a Darklord.
Paladins are a bigger issue than Inquisitor in that setting...
Fair enough, though I doubt anyone in my group would play a Paladin anyway. It's something to think about.
@Utgardloki-My concern revolves around the following. It will probably be a low treasure game, there won't be magic shops and players will have to do with what they get or can manage to craft. Bane from the Inquisitor lets them make their weapon effectively +2 better and deal a ton of damage. They have spells that often specifically target undead or fiends. They have an ability that makes is basically evasion for will/fort saves (and would foil a lot of Horror/Madness effects). They also have Stern Gaze and later Detect Lie which makes intrigue plots hard to pull off.
If you don't already have it, check out the "Mistfinder (Pathfinder for Ravenloft)" thread in this (Conversions) forum. Technically, it's still a WIP, but it's extremely good.
I have taken a look at that, but it's mainly an update to the WWP d20 Ravenloft. After talking to a friend of mine who also loves Ravenloft, we both agree that the best route is cherry picking what we like from the old systems rather than taking anything wholesale. So I will be looking at Mistfinder, as well as its source material, 1e, 2e, 4e, and EtCR/Heroes of Horror.
Paladins are a bigger issue than Inquisitor in that setting...Fair enough, though I doubt anyone in my group would play a Paladin anyway. It's something to think about.
@Utgardloki-My concern revolves around the following. It will probably be a low treasure game, there won't be magic shops and players will have to do with what they get or can manage to craft. Bane from the Inquisitor lets them make their weapon effectively +2 better and deal a ton of damage. They have spells that often specifically target undead or fiends. They have an ability that makes is basically evasion for will/fort saves (and would foil a lot of Horror/Madness effects). They also have Stern Gaze and later Detect Lie which makes intrigue plots hard to pull off.
I don't think that sounds like too much of a problem. Other classes have abilities that grant bonuses to hit and do damage. The Cleric can target undead. Being resistant to will/fort saves may be a great way to prevent a total party kill -- it's nice to have someone you can rely on. I'm sure there are ways about Detect Lie, but even so, Paladins and Clerics also have abilities to force people to tell the truth.
Unless the Inquisitor is poorly written (and I haven't examined it), it should fit in very well.
As for having little treasure and no magic shops, you might want to invent alternatives. Perhaps special, hard-to-get ingredients could substitute for gold pieces for crafting potions and magic items. You could reduce the cost to create scrolls and wands by the ratio you plan to reduce treasure. (Although perhaps finding supplies of high quality paper and wood may be introduced as a limiting factor.)
Inquisitors in Ravenloft are like Jedi in Star Wars - they're actually a perfect fit, it's everyone else that's a bit off.
This is a very apt analogy, especially in the old Star Wars d6 system. The balance was that the Jedi would spend half his career as dead weight and the other half as a complete god. My worry is Inquisitor only ever being a god.
But let's open up the discussion to anything else you might recommend for running Ravenloft in PF. What mechanics work and don't work in a horror-themed game? How is Carrion Crown?
@Utgardloki-My concern revolves around the following. It will probably be a low treasure game, there won't be magic shops and players will have to do with what they get or can manage to craft. Bane from the Inquisitor lets them make their weapon effectively +2 better and deal a ton of damage.
For X rounds/day, where X is your level.
Compare that to a paladin's smite. +Cha attack +Level damage, ignore DR, and get a nice bonus to AC to boot. And we're talking about a full BAB class here, i.e. better attack bonus and more attacks. And better Power Attack. And don't forget their ability to improve their weapons (unless they want a horsey).
They have spells that often specifically target undead or fiends.
So? I don't see why this is a big problem. A paladin also has some of these. And, of course, lay on hands and channel.
They have an ability that makes is basically evasion for will/fort saves (and would foil a lot of Horror/Madness effects).
And that's worse than outright immunity to fear? 8 levels earlier than the inquisitor gets his stalwart. And paladins are immune to diseases, even supernatural ones.
And immunity to charm effects.
All this before the inquisitor ever gets his chance to shrug off instead of lessen some effects.
And everything the paladin isn't immune to, they can probably avoid with their stellar saves or get rid of with mercy.
They also have Stern Gaze and later Detect Lie which makes intrigue plots hard to pull off.
None of this is fool-proof. Sense motive will still have to oppose bluff, and discern lies allows a will save (and as far as I remember, in Ravenloft, the undead get to openly lie to you when they save against mind reading and the like and you never get to know that they made the save and feeding you baloney (the metaphorical kind).
We're talking about highly charismatic, strong-willed critters here.
Sure, it gives them a good chance of seeing through lies, but what use is it when the players have no chance to see through that stuff?
paladin stuff
I don't disagree that a Paladin is MORE powerful and MORE disruptive than an Inquisitor. But like I said, no one in my group is going to play a Paladin. That being said, in a group of, say, Wizard, Rogue, Bard, Ranger, Inquisitor (for example) do you think the Inquisitor would have an unfair advantage in too many situations?
I should mention that my players ostensibly won't know they're going into Ravenloft from the outset, or at least their characters won't.
One thing you could do is playtest a party. My guess is that your characters will have plenty to do. The important thing is to give characters with lots of skills chances to use their skills, e.g. if there is a Ranger, it is good if she gets to track and find food in the wilderness and stuff like that.
paladin stuffI don't disagree that a Paladin is MORE powerful and MORE disruptive than an Inquisitor.
I don't call it disruptive. Powerful, yes, but no more than wizards and the like.
But like I said, no one in my group is going to play a Paladin. That being said, in a group of, say, Wizard, Rogue, Bard, Ranger, Inquisitor (for example) do you think the Inquisitor would have an unfair advantage in too many situations?
Not really. The class seems balanced to me. Remember that it's not a full BAB class. Inquisitors do get combat abilities, but so get the warrior classes - and those classes get the abilities in addition to the full BAB.
The way I figure, the worst case scenario is that everybody plays Inquisitors.
As a DM, I believe that you do have the right to disallow a class for whatever reason you want. For my 17th Century campaign, I am decided to limit the number of classes to 20, and the Oracle just does not make the cut. I am also considering, depending on whether or not I like the Samurai, to cut the Summoner class in favor of allowing Samurais. (Or maybe I'll cut the Summoner and allow Oracles, after all.)
But for you, I'd suggest allowing Inquisitors and see what happens.
I don't think the inquisitor will particularly dominate combat. Bane is nice, but I don't think it would overshadow a fighter or ranger, and it's only for a number of rounds per day anyways.
I agree that high social skills and spells like Detect Lies, Read Thoughts, etc. can derail a mystery plot. I'm ambivalent about whether that's a bad thing or not; as a player, I dislike muddling about following red herrings and being in the dark, but as a GM it's sometimes disappointing to have your players skip right to the end of the plot.
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Well, if you play in a vacuum, yes an Inquisitor has some perks that could make things a bit easier for them. However don't forget (like everyone else does) that the Mists of Ravenloft likes to keep it's secrets and isn't afraid of any Deity.
All of the Inquisitors detective abilities will be at half strength (at best) and most of the real creatures in Ravenloft are type Unique and should shrug off most of the bane effect.
(Monster Lore, Stern Gaze, Detect Alignment, Discern Lies) all are obscured by the Mists so they'll never be able to trusts what they see even more than normal characters.
Also being the divine agents they are the mists will take an active role in leading them to falling. Heck they'll be more fun for the mists than any paladin could be.
Their combat abilities are nice but easily countered if you just vary the combats a bit. Mix up the types (vampire Plus animated dead, Mummy with a werewolf pet, etc) and have fun.
There speaks someone who knows their Ravenloft.
All of the Inquisitors detective abilities will be at half strength (at best) and most of the real creatures in Ravenloft are type Unique and should shrug off most of the bane effect.
(Monster Lore, Stern Gaze, Detect Alignment, Discern Lies) all are obscured by the Mists so they'll never be able to trusts what they see even more than normal characters.
Also being the divine agents they are the mists will take an active role in leading them to falling. Heck they'll be more fun for the mists than any paladin could be.
That's entirely too heavy handed for my tastes.
That's entirely too heavy handed for my tastes.There speaks someone who knows their Ravenloft.
All of the Inquisitors detective abilities will be at half strength (at best) and most of the real creatures in Ravenloft are type Unique and should shrug off most of the bane effect.
(Monster Lore, Stern Gaze, Detect Alignment, Discern Lies) all are obscured by the Mists so they'll never be able to trusts what they see even more than normal characters.
Also being the divine agents they are the mists will take an active role in leading them to falling. Heck they'll be more fun for the mists than any paladin could be.
Ravenloft at its purest is like that - The heros' will hold out for a win, when the likey BEST case scenario is entropy and corruption of any good they have wrought.
Even the Story of the Good Vampire who seeks redemption leads to him exposing himself to the sun as a victory... he had to Die to beat the Mists and that victory? Its a purely personal one.
Ravenloft is messed up! Which is a lot of its appeal.
I like the books, I like the setting (mostly), I like the atmosphere. I like that it is relatively low magic, and that magic like everything else there always has consequences. I like the adventures for the Grand Conjunction itself quite a bit. I don't like having to fudge or lie to my players, even for the sake of the story. I also don't like arbitrarily punishing players for doing x or y. Not that you're advocating that, but Ravenloft tends to draw in that kind of DM, the DM as god type. DM fiat is the cardinal sin of gaming IMO.
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I like the books, I like the setting (mostly), I like the atmosphere. I like that it is relatively low magic, and that magic like everything else there always has consequences. I like the adventures for the Grand Conjunction itself quite a bit. I don't like having to fudge or lie to my players, even for the sake of the story. I also don't like arbitrarily punishing players for doing x or y. Not that you're advocating that, but Ravenloft tends to draw in that kind of DM, the DM as god type. DM fiat is the cardinal sin of gaming IMO.That's entirely too heavy handed for my tastes.There speaks someone who knows their Ravenloft.
All of the Inquisitors detective abilities will be at half strength (at best) and most of the real creatures in Ravenloft are type Unique and should shrug off most of the bane effect.
(Monster Lore, Stern Gaze, Detect Alignment, Discern Lies) all are obscured by the Mists so they'll never be able to trusts what they see even more than normal characters.
Also being the divine agents they are the mists will take an active role in leading them to falling. Heck they'll be more fun for the mists than any paladin could be.
Ravenloft at its purest is like that - The heros' will hold out for a win, when the likey BEST case scenario is entropy and corruption of any good they have wrought.
Even the Story of the Good Vampire who seeks redemption leads to him exposing himself to the sun as a victory... he had to Die to beat the Mists and that victory? Its a purely personal one.
Ravenloft is messed up! Which is a lot of its appeal.
Ravenloft did have a tendency to attract that type of GM but nothing in the system was set to encourage it.
The way it was designed to be played was ROLE-play heavy and when combat was inevitable it was designed to be more player vs. self then party vs. BBEG.The game rules are there purely to keep the mystery unresolved for a bit longer and to keep the party on their toes. Your detect alignment ability would show the count as just Lawful (instead of Lawful Evil) or the detect lies on the Gypsy storyteller would show that ONE of the things she told you was a lie but not which one.
The point was to give them just enough magical information to put them on their guard but make them do the legwork themselves.
The Unique types don't take away from the players powers, those still work fine on the mooks and lesser bad guys populating the realms it just makes the final BBEG a wild card and the fights more touch and go.
Here's my favorite example from one of the sessions we ran back in the day.
General premise was pretty basic, the party came out of the mists into a kidnapping mystery, once a year the lord of the manor would claim a village maiden and take her to his castle never to be seen. This year the maiden managed to escape and the lord was going to torch the village if she wasn't returned to him.
The party was tasked with saving the village by either killing the lord or finding the maiden and returning her to him.
They relied on their class skills (tracking, intimidation) plus social skills with the NPCs and good roleplaying to find out that the maiden was the real dark lord of this domain and was attempting to escape Ravenloft by possessing a pure maiden and using her to escape through an annual rift back to the real world. The vampire Lord was her jailor tasked to keep this fiend from ever escaping the rift.
This left the party in the hard position of
a). Escape through the rift with the maiden (if she left she'd get her own body back and flee leaving the maiden unharmed, but everyone on that mist shard would be swallowed up by the mists once the lord left)
B). Return her to the vampire who would contain it for another year in the maidens body (and feed on her) and continue the annual tribute. The maiden would suffer but everyone else would live.
C). Kill the vampire and have someone else take the job as her jailor and find another way to contain her.
D). Find a creative solution.
One good detect alignment/lies spell and the whole story falls apart.
Ravenloft is all about forcing the hard choices with no certainty of whether you are right or wrong. It's a HIGH roleplay world full of shades of gray and I loved it.
I like the books, I like the setting (mostly), I like the atmosphere. I like that it is relatively low magic, and that magic like everything else there always has consequences. I like the adventures for the Grand Conjunction itself quite a bit. I don't like having to fudge or lie to my players, even for the sake of the story. I also don't like arbitrarily punishing players for doing x or y. Not that you're advocating that, but Ravenloft tends to draw in that kind of DM, the DM as god type. DM fiat is the cardinal sin of gaming IMO.
I'ts not arbitrary, its always was in the setting rules. You are not "punishing" players for making it hard to cast a fire spell while walking the elemental plane of water. Gimped or altered magic, horror, madness and power checks and curses are an integral part of the setting.
Quote about paladins from the Realm of Terror book : "To the beasts of Ravenloft, paladins are like salt in a gaping wounds - tey're impossible to ignore. The instant one of these do-gooders step into a domain, the lord of that domain sense-it, for the paladin's glaring aura disturbs the fabric of the land itself."
I you are gowing to play Ravenloft, you are gowing to screw your players, and lie, and cheat. Does the settings tends to draw in that kind of DM? Yes, because the books tell you to be that kind of DM. And it's ok, because the most screwed of all are the dark lords. Your players should be able to understand the setting is such, and you should tell them that they are playing gothic horror and tragic characters.
If they only want heroic fantasy with vampires ghosts and werewolves (which is quite ok and quite fun also, Ravenloft is not for everyone) and no special mechanics to screw with the pcs, Golarion (Ustalav) may be a better setting for your taste.
But, hey, it's your game - you play the setting the way you want, but Ravenloft, when done right, can be quite fun if you have the right group with the right mindset. Don't balk before trying!
Quote about paladins from the Realm of Terror book : "To the beasts of Ravenloft, paladins are like salt in a gaping wounds - tey're impossible to ignore. The instant one of these do-gooders step into a domain, the lord of that domain sense-it, for the paladin's glaring aura disturbs the fabric of the land itself."
I think this is the right way to do it. You can give (imo) a much better experience if the dark powers focus on a paladin or inquisitor in a more organic, roleplay friendly way. Instead of taking away ability X, make it so every time a character uses ability X, the dark lord of the domain knows exactly where that character is. That's how I did it in my Ravenloft games, anyway.
Yes, keep in mind, that any creature with an Aura, and specially paladins ping asap in the Darklords radar as soon as they enter her domain.
I think that inquisitors, would make an excelent addition to any Ravenloft games. However, keep in mind a few things.
Spellcasters ARE rare, an inquisitor should be a rare finding, also keep in mind that divinations works diff. in ravenloft. The evil/good axis works as law/chaos. So, keep an eye on those abilities.
IMO i think that just for the fluff of the setting, inquisitors should be either stripped of their spellcasting and domain, or have it reworked as arcane (Same spell list, arcane source) depends on wicked and evil you are!
They feel more like hunters - Van Richten comes to mind - than Church´s inquisitors to me (At least in this setting).-
On the other hand, a Vistani Witch...
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I can see the concern that the OP may have. Stat wise, an inquistor is no more dangerous than the Pally or a Cleric (even Oracle in some instances). If mean in regards on how easy they may have it against, Evil/Unholy? Thats a risk you take on letting players use any divine characters. From a roleplaying stance? Fear the Inquisitor! Paladins are predictable, Clerics and Oracles less so. Inquisitors will do whatever it takes to get the job done with minimal loss to them. DAIN GER US!
You might as well play a rogue or bard in those cases.IMO i think that just for the fluff of the setting, inquisitors should be either stripped of their spellcasting and domain, or have it reworked as arcane (Same spell list, arcane source) depends on wicked and evil you are!
Oh yes, totally. I was going just for the fluff.
Paladins are a bigger issue than Inquisitor in that setting...Fair enough, though I doubt anyone in my group would play a Paladin anyway. It's something to think about.
@Utgardloki-My concern revolves around the following. It will probably be a low treasure game, there won't be magic shops and players will have to do with what they get or can manage to craft. Bane from the Inquisitor lets them make their weapon effectively +2 better and deal a ton of damage. They have spells that often specifically target undead or fiends. They have an ability that makes is basically evasion for will/fort saves (and would foil a lot of Horror/Madness effects). They also have Stern Gaze and later Detect Lie which makes intrigue plots hard to pull off.
On top of that, they have greater magic weapon and magic vestment as spells 3rd level spells (level 7), meaning they can easily just cast both of those spells and be magically equipped for the next 7 hours. At 8 they can have a +2 shield, a +2 suit of armor and a +2 weapon for 8 hours. At 12, they can use extend metamagic with those spells to have +3 weapon/+3 armor/+3 shield for 24 hours.
They really quickly break out of the "low magic" spectrum if you consider them to be selfish casters.
Paladins are a bigger issue than Inquisitor in that setting...Fair enough, though I doubt anyone in my group would play a Paladin anyway. It's something to think about.
@Utgardloki-My concern revolves around the following. It will probably be a low treasure game, there won't be magic shops and players will have to do with what they get or can manage to craft. Bane from the Inquisitor lets them make their weapon effectively +2 better and deal a ton of damage. They have spells that often specifically target undead or fiends. They have an ability that makes is basically evasion for will/fort saves (and would foil a lot of Horror/Madness effects). They also have Stern Gaze and later Detect Lie which makes intrigue plots hard to pull off.
On top of that, they have greater magic weapon and magic vestment as spells 3rd level spells (level 7), meaning they can easily just cast both of those spells and be magically equipped for the next 7 hours. At 8 they can have a +2 shield, a +2 suit of armor and a +2 weapon for 8 hours. At 12, they can use extend metamagic with those spells to have +3 weapon/+3 armor/+3 shield for 24 hours.
They really quickly break out of the "low magic" spectrum if you consider them to be selfish casters.
aye, Aye, thats why you should ask for arcane - and obscure - material components. Like "mandrake root, touched by full moon´s first light". Or therwise, ban the access to spells. Maybe rework some of the spells, or even lower the duration to 10min/lvl.- Its not that hard, and ravelonft its a wonderful setting.
also, keep in mind that the grand conjunction adventures, are brutal AND LOVELY! however, people die... a lot. i havent tried them in PF, maybe i should give them a try *evil grin*
Oh well, you got me, saturday night, my players will find a thick white fog coming for them.-
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Paladins aren't terribly overpowered in Ravenloft. They're not immune to fear if you're using the 3.5e Ravenloft rules. They get the Courage feat (+4 vs Fear saves) for free at first level instead. I think there might be a caveat about being immune to magical fear, but not physical, gut-wrenching, oh-dear-that's-a-long-fall fear. Paladins are also not immune to Horror or Madness. They can't detect evil either (again, per the 3.5e version of the rules), since evil permeates the very matter of the demiplane. They detect Innocence or Chaos. Innocence is an exceptionally rare thing.
The poor paladin in my current Ravenloft game went a little bonkers when he used his Detect ability on the serial killer the party had been hunting and found her to be an Innocent. He's permanently insane now. Well, his primary personality is insane. His other 8 personalities are all pretty stable, after a sense.
I don't see inquisitors being able to shrug off anything any better than a paladin. The Stalwart ability only applies to spells or effects that have a reduced effect on a save. If the inquisitor passes, they suffer no ill effects. If the inquisitor fails, they still suffer the full effects. In terms of Fear, Horror, and Madness, this has no impact. The Will saves for those three effects are universally Save or Something Terrible Happens. So against the abilities of monsters, that's a great passive defense! Against opening a door and discovering a fetid pile of corpses arranged into a smiley face? Not so helpful. Also, good luck getting to level 11 in Ravenloft. Like paladins, inquisitors that make themselves known for being a thorn in the sides of those that do evil tend to draw the attention of evil beings. On a plane that generally rewards acts of evil.
As for the monster identifying skills and advantages to combat an inquisitor has, well, those I find reasonably in flavour for Ravenloft. It reminds me of Van Richten and his followers. I think there was even a prestige class in 3.0/3.5 Ravenloft that built off rangers to become a monster hunter. I think inquisitors fit well in that niche and don't have a serious advantage over a ranger who picks his favoured enemy well. Remember that most of the seminal, iconic monsters in Ravenloft get a power boost. Fiends, lycanthropes, the undead, hags, and all that get some serious boosts simply for being in the demiplane. Also, inquisitors, using paladins as reference, could only detect alignments on the Law-Chaos scale, since Good-Evil are undetectable in Ravenloft.
The big thing to remember is that Ravenloft is a big game of consequences. You can't run it like a regular game and expect the same atmosphere. It's the Demiplane of Dread, for gods' sakes. It eats character sheets like players eat your snacks. Your players need to be fearing for their characters' lives. Being a constant beacon of hope and good is going to bring down some awful comeuppance. Worse, it may bring promises of assistance and support; all of which are tainted with the intent of engineering the downfall of a good man/woman. As a Ravenloft GM, you are working to engineer the downfall of your players. That doesn't mean they can't succeed, it just means they have to work harder and smarter and be willing to make sacrifices. As GM, you are roleplaying the demiplane, and the demiplane is actively against its denizens.
i know this is an old post, but how it went? did this guy have done already the conversions? im embarking in the same trip too. Only that i need to do two things: converting it and translating it to my languageSince then, this has come out, which you might find useful. There's also a huge monster compendium, and darklord stats.
Good man, you beat me to it. In case you need the rest of the material, here's the link to the forum post where you can get all 3 books, including the book of darklords and the monster book.