Plus your 15 +4 arrows are costing nearly 10000 gp per volley. That's a pretty expensive component for a 5th level spell.Funny I was seeing it as under a 1/3 of a 3rd level GMW spell.
-James
Not fired in the normal manner, the enhancement bonus would not count. The telekinesis spell is simple. It does not say if you throw a +4 sword you get that bonus. Won't apply to arrows either.
I was using Table 1-1 in the Bestiary, i.e. the system baseline for encounters against the baseline attack bonus of the spell. If you want to assume that extra bonuses can only be added to one side, that's the fallacy I was referring to.I'm sorry if you think that a 15th level PC would not have any gear beyond evidently a stat item (otherwise I'm not seeing the attack bonus being that high even).
It doesn't make any sense to me.
If you want to use the table for a CR 16 creature with 31AC and 240hps that's fine, but don't whine when essentially he's taken out twice over.
Items for the rogue: Stat item +6 (36k), ioun stone (4k), luck stone (20k), sniper goggles (20k), staff (15th CL, TK 1 charge, Wall force 10 ch, Interposing Hand 10ch) (40k), 50 adamantine arrows (3k), 50 cold iron/silver arrows which is about half his expected wealth leaving plenty for everything else.
Buffs: Extended GMW (CL 16) on 50 arrows (32hours) [actually likely 2 or so of these], Extended Heroes Feast (on party) (24hours), Extended Heroism (CL 16) (5hours 20min) (the last recast over the day as needed)
But please, do show us the 15th level archer that can deliver over 500 damage to AC 31 from 900+ feet.
-James
Please show me a rogue or arcane trickster that can do 500 points of damage a round indefinitely. Also show me all these creatures sitting perfectly open from a 1000 feet. I'm sure all the BBEGs are just sitting there waiting for the rogue to hit them from a 1000 feet away with a volley of arrows not actively defending themselves.
I calculated Arcane Trickster damage. Their sneak attack is lower than a straight rogue. So their attack only does roughly 390 points of damage compared to a rogue at minimum lvl 16.
You are claiming this is at 15th lvl, yet calculating damage based on a lvl 19 rogue. So why are you doing that?
15th lvl rogue would do 8d6 sneak attack per arrow. 15th level arcane trickser 5d6 assuming lvl 3 rogue/lvl 3 caster/lvl 9 arcane trickster. Look at that, only a lvl 12 caster, 14 with magical knack. So can't even do 15 arrows.
Assuming 7 points every 2d6. An 8d6 rogue does 28 points of damage plus the 2 points for hitting like daggers for 30 points an arrow. 30 x 15 is 450 points if they all hit. For lvl 15 arcane trickster build it would be 6d6 or 23 an arrow x 14 (on average) for an average of 322 damage.
Let's calculate an average archer by that lvl.
14 str 20 Dex
+3 Bow Strengthen
Greater weapon focus
Greater weapon Spec
Deadly Aim
Weapon Training
Attack roll
+15 BAB +5 Dex +3 weapon training +2 greater spec +3 bow -2 rapid shot -4 deadly aim =+22/+22/17/12
Average damage: 1d8 +2 str +3 weapon training +4 double spec +3 bow +8 deadly aim 23 an arrow
Let's say he hits at least with the first two shots.
46 (manyshot)+ second shot 23 points
3 Arrows: 82 damae
4 arrows: 105
5 arrows with haste: 128
So the archer averages anywhere from 69 to 128 a round. Doesn't need to be invisible, doesn't need tricks, and can sustain this from round to round without expending a multiple spells against creatures with fort armor or immunity to critical hits. At lvl 16 his damage rises another 2 points per attack and he gets another attack.
So let's take a lvl 19 archer since you were calculating damage based on a lvl 19 rogue.
Str 16 (12 str Enhancement belt +4)
Dex 28 (18 starting with racial +4 points into dex lvl +6 belt)
+4 bow with holy
Greater Braces of Archery (Since we're creating optimal situations)
Attack roll +19 BAB + 9 dex +4 bow +4 weapon training +2 comp from bracers -2 rapid shot -5 deadly aim = +31/31/26/21/16
Damage: 1d8 +3 str +4 enh +2 comp bracers +4 weapon training +4 double spec +7 holy +10 deadly aim = 38 per arrow
Manyshot 76
shot 2: 114
shot 3: 152
shot 4 190
shot 5: 228
Haste shot: 266
So we have an archer with only haste able to anywhere from 76 points to 266 points a round against all evil creatures with no tricks. If he crits even once, his average crit is 93 +7 holy for 100 points.
While your lvl 19 rogue/arcane trickster is still hitting with his +15 BAB plus his intel modifier the rogue is doing as much, if not more damage than him, in 2 rounds. He is doing this every single round with crits that a rogue cannot touch. Even if the rogue happens to crit, his arrow does 12 points? Slightly more if you invested some greater magic weapons on them.
The archers damage works fine against Fortification armor or creatures immune to critical hits. It punches through evil alignment DR without additions. Though smart archers have probably already taken Penetrating Strike so they don't even have to think about DR.
Just last night in my lvl 18 game, the Two-hander fighter did 270 points of damage with 4 attacks. He was hasted and got 5 attacks, but he missed once. Do you want spec out a two-hander fighter and see what kind of damage they do? Give it a shot and tell me again how much of a problem you have with the Arcane Trickster or rogue doing 500 points of damage with a telekinetic attack?
Sorry, I don't see the problem. Pathfinder damage is insane. Fights are fast and furious. If a rogue or arcane trickster in my campaign wants to spend all those resources to be able to fire one decent attack a round off every now and then, I'm going to let them do it.
Maybe for someone that hasn't played the game much past lvl 10 except in theory that attack seems like a big deal, but for someone like myself that reglarly reaches lvl 15 or higher. That attack is nothing. One great attack now and again that may not even hit some of these ACs of high lvl creatures. And can be rendered useless by a ton of spells including the new archer bane spell fickle winds.
You're not impressing me. The barbarian in my group averages 46 points hit or 196 points of damage a round and often far more with Come and Get Me. The Two-hander fighter averages 65 points a hit and averages 260 a round with all his to hit bonuses. You want me to begrudge an arcane trickster or rogue a nice big fat hit now and again?
Nah. I'll let them have it if they want to set it up. Life's tough with those low fort and will saves. And plenty of times sneak attack is rendered useless.
Like I said, pull it off in game a whole bunch. See how well it works and how often.And it has changed. I read no volley rule in the sneak attack description. I see no official ruling negating this type of attack.
Pure house rule on your part.
Like I said, it was the rule in 3.5 and Paizo did nothing one way or the other. It wasn't in an OGL product so that's easily a reason why.
But as to which way to go on this I think it's honest to go with 3.5's call on this.
And it's not hard to pull it off in game. All the actions are done way ahead of time just as a cleric casting magic vestments or GMW on items when going adventuring.
It's obviously not intended for a rogue to deal 9 times the damage with a wizard spell than a wizard... let alone that this damage on average kills close to two CR equal opponents.
And again I'm interested in seeing the 15th level archer that's dealing over 500damage to AC 31 at 800+ feet. How much damage can a 15th level archer do? Can you even get close? Have any of you even tried?
-James
3.5 FAQ as far as I know doesn't apply to Pathfinder. I go only by the Pathfinder FAQ or books.
I statted out for you a lvl 15 archer. I showed how your damage was off for the lvl 15 rogue using telekinesis. You added on a bunch of spells the rogue would have to constantly purchase and hope they don't get dispeled.
Lvl 15 arcane trickster does less damage. Which I already showed you.
At lvl 15, the telekinesis does more damage if they all hit than the archer. A lvl 15 archer would probably average 80 to 100 points a round depending on how they build their weapon. But continues to rise exponentially. They do that damage absent any tricks.
You have failed to show me all these monsters sitting around in the open at 900 feet waiting to get hit by a volley of arrows.
You have also haven't taken into account how often cover exists that would affect the telekinetic attack.
They would also have to have Precise Shot to avoid the -4 penalty for melee if the creature was also engaged.
You haven't shown whether or not he could bypass DR with the attack.
Also a simple blur spell completely eliminates the attack as does invisibility which would require more spell investment by the rogue to counter.
So now you want the volley rule in play because you found a means to use it that makes it overpowered for one big attack. Sorry, not going to do it.
Archer rogues can do sneak attack on up to 5 arrows a round or 6 attacks without haste.
Melee characters do huge sums of damage with their hits. Ever stat out what an average cavalier does for damage with a Lance with a standard action against a challenged creature while riding by him? Try it some time. Pray he doesn't crit because it will be far, far more.
Stat out a two-hander fighter. Get back to me on how overpowered that telekinetic attack is.
Or how about a paladin archer that has used smite evil on an enemy. That's always a fun one to see that kind of damage.
So once again I ask, why do you want to begrudge the rogue a huge attack with telekinesis when there are so many ways to make that attack not work? My cross-blooded aberrant/orc sorcerer laughs at rogues at lvl 16. Your telekinetic rogue would do jack squat to him at lvl 15. He'd laugh at all the little pin arrows you shot at him. Am I overpowered because I can laugh at his attack?
And I especially wonder why you begrudge an Arcane Trickster his scorching ray sneak attacks. That's about his best attack. And even that attack is very counterable.
Other classes have tons of options for massive damage. All within the rules. And yeah, that telekinetic attack would definitely hurt. It's definitely a dangerous attack a DM would have to account for. And if some optimized sniper gets it, that's definitely trouble.
But does it screw up my day as DM any more than say a Hold Monster cast on my advanced, giant shoggoth after a Prediction of Failure landed on it? Nope. That rogue would have been useless against that Shoggoth with his telekinetic attack, but the wizard made him look like a total chump. And the two-hander warrior averaged 229 points a round against it after DR.
Just so you know, a lvl 15 cavalier mounted on a lance with creature challenged does the following damage once per round.
Figure 24 str at least by lvl 15. Lance two-handed weapon. At lvl 15 he is one off from higher power attack.
+10 str +8 power attack +3 lance +15 challenge = 36
1d8+36 = 40 average.
So with a standard action he does 160 points Ride by Attacking with spirited charge regardless of any tricks or immunities. It only gets worse as the cavalier optimizes further and further increases his strength and power attack. If he crits he does 240 with one hit.
So many builds can do insane damage, why am I going to cry more over a telekinesis build? It takes more resources to make work. It has more counters. And it becomes incresingly less of an issue as you go higher and higher.
And I don't see many creatures sitting around in the open at 900 feet waiting to get sniped. And once creatures start getting Fortification armor, then you're useless.
They've been needing to rework the rogue for a while now because of how situational its abilities are. I hope they do soon.
I played an arcane trickster once.
One of the best characters I ever played.
She was a Half-Elf diviner 4/rogue 1/assassin 1/arcane trickster 10.
Nobody could stop her. She was a rod crafter and carried several metamagic rods. She would use those for offensive power (frequently doing more damage than anyone else in the party) while using her skills and class abilities for just about everything else. Her spells were often used for defense, stealth, and escape.
There was nothing she couldn't do. Sure she didn't have as many base ranks as a rogue, but with he wizard's intelligence SHE ENDED UP WITH MORE OVERALL.
The ONLY drawback I see to this prestige class is the "slight" delay in spellcasting and the horrible base attack bonus. But hey, if you're idiotic enough to rely on spells and attacks that require attack rolls that's the fault of you being an idiot, not of the prestige class.
EDIT: Oh, and she could tank fairly well too.
Hey, have fun with it. But where PF hasn't changed things I don't see why you would choose to ignore things from 3.5. I can only suspect its for a purpose/goal.
3.5 FAQ as far as I know doesn't apply to Pathfinder. I go only by the Pathfinder FAQ or books.
So, I guess you allow Pathfinder monks to flurry with one hand while using Two-Weapon Fighting to make additional "off-hand" attacks (3.5 FAQ), even though Pathfinder prohibits it.
There are many small changes between 3.5 and Pathfinder. It's compatible, not the exact same system.
|
Calmly point out that it says divinations "like" and lists examples... not an exhaustive list of all such things. If he wants to play semantics then play back.PDK mind blank is your friend and stops true seeing.if you read mind blank and nondetection carefully, you'll see that they both have gaps a DM could use to validate True Seeing as the ultimate anti invisibility tool. The lead sentence of Mind Blank is "protect against divination spells that gather information about you", and goes on to give "see invisibility" as an example... a DM could always claim that "True Seeing is not listed there"
Sigh...
I tried to play that game but my bluff and/or charisma is low... :)
So you agree that both mind blank and nondetection are effective ways to protect an invisible caster against true seeing?
3.5 FAQ as far as I know doesn't apply to Pathfinder. I go only by the Pathfinder FAQ or books.
Hey, have fun with it. But where PF hasn't changed things I don't see why you would choose to ignore things from 3.5. I can only suspect its for a purpose/goal.
I statted out for you a lvl 15 archer. I showed how your damage was off for the lvl 15 rogue using telekinesis. You added on a bunch of spells the rogue would have to constantly purchase and hope they don't get dispeled.
Oh sorry, for some reason I missed it. I have no idea why! I could not have missed that.. I'd swear it wasn't there when I posted!
Honestly I was having the rogue in a 15th level party, and figured very reasonable buffs that he could get from them that would last either all day or all day with a few applications. Seeing how much he could deliver it seemed quite worth it.
But let me comment on your post now.
Assuming 7 points every 2d6. An 8d6 rogue does 28 points of damage plus the 2 points for hitting like daggers for 30 points an arrow. 30 x 15 is 450 points if they all hit.
If you'll look at the post you'll see that the arrows have a +4 GMW spell on them, so there's another 60pts of damage.
And I've been quite clear that I am talking about a 15th level rogue or alchemist variant (I believe they get full sneak progression, right?) using a staff of TK. I detailed out the items as well as the active spells in the post that you quoted.
Now as to your 15th level archer.. you're claiming 128 damage in a round. So about 1/4 the damage! That should be telling you something there... especially as you didn't figure in range penalties to the hit chance. Oh wait, you didn't figure out the chance for you to miss there, did you? Meanwhile the rogue in question is hitting that 31 AC on a 2 and critical hitting on a 20.. so that's basically a wash.
Even your 19th level archer is doing about half this damage.
Sorry...
What purpose or goal might that be since I am the DM?
I have shown you your damage is off for an arcane trickster because they do less with sneak attack. If a rogue seriously wants to invest that much into doing a single huge attack from range, more power to him.
What my problem is is this: rogues are weak and poorly designed. This is coming from a DM. A rogue's big schtick in combat is sneak attack. It's all they can do to keep up with the enormous damage output of high level players and creatures. Yet sneak attack is counterable in so many ways. I don't even bother to send rogue enemies against my players because they are so ineffective. All my melee characters buy fortifcation armor before they buy addional enhancement bonuses because preventing big crits is more beneficial than AC.
So if some rogue uses a great telekinetic attack on occasion, more power to him. Most encounters do not take place at 900 feet away with the rogue having perfect line of sight and effect to the target. Which they would need to execute this attack. Most major enemies have fairly active and substantial means of dealing with something as simple as invisibility. If the target is invisible or in tight quarters with lots of guards, the rogue has to fight his way through them without alerting the enemy.
The rogue can also needs a constant supply of arrows. He also needs to pull them out, which is not a free action because a bundle of 15 arrows is not free action to draw ammunition. It's a unique scenario the DM will have to adjudicate as it happens.
And picking lvl 15 knowing full well that damage for other characters goes up substantially at lvl 16 is a poor way to compare.
If this telekinetic attack ever becomes a problem in my campaigns, I'll probably at worst house rule that telekinesis does not allow the exact attack capability needed to execute a sneak attack.
I will not implement a volley rule taking away scorching ray from arcane tricksters. It's one of their best attacks. In a game favoring melees when it comes to damage, I see no reason to further weaken the rogue.
I play enemies in my campaigns as intelligently as players. Which means all they ever purchase on their armors and defenses is fortification. A key crit is far more dangerous than a standard hit. So fortification is more valuable an ability. Which pretty much renders rogues nearly useless at high levels.
And the arcane trickster has lots of other options to use to be effective. The arcane trickster is much more powerful than the rogue as a class. I have no idea why you consider them needing changes or as ineffective. They are one of the more attractive rogue options.
Whenever I get in these conversations, I wonder if I'm even playing the same game as some of you. Or there is a huge number of people that aren't very good at optimizing a character in D&D. It is so easy to make characters that do insane amounts of damage or are completely resistant to precision-based damage like sneak attacks.
One of the first thing my parties do is get something to make them immune to crits, which renders precision-based damage nearly obsolete. I don't fault them for this. Given armor options like negligible spell resistance and energy resistance, fortification is by far the most beneficial armor modification you can buy and very much worth the bang for the buck.
Do your players not purchase fortification armor the first chance they get or one of your players obtain Craft Arms and Armor to put fortification armor on as soon as they are able? My players do it all the time, every campaign. I'm not going to stop them. There are no other worthwhile armor mods other than maximum fortification. Until there are, I see no reason to punish my players.
Thus rogues are fairly weak in my campaigns. Even arcane casters usually obtain Elemental Body 3 or cast a simple blur spell if they think a rogue is about as part of a standard buff sequence to eliminate sneak attacking.
Redesigning the rogue class so that its entire combat potency wasn't dependent on sneak attack would make the class more playable as well as elminate rules problems like this telekinetic attack or the volley rule. I'm surprised Pathfinder didn't take this step when do class redesigns.
I've played an AT and I think it is a weak combat class till you get Surprise Spells (which plays oddly because it works best with spells that you probably avoided up to that point). It gives you a lot of flexibility in out of combat and scouting situations, but if your game isn't going to have those its not great. Here's my general advice:
Race should be Human or Elf for a Wizard base or Halfling for a Sorcerer base.
Good options for a Wizard base are (1) Universalist and using a short sword as your arcane bond which you make into a Sword of Subtlety when able; and (2) Diviner for Forewarned combined with the Rogue talent Surprise Attack and Improved Initiative. For such a Diviner I think Elf using a longbow and Rapid Shot is the best option and focusing on Dex over Int. I think crafting and self-buffing are good options for Wizard-based ATs. Anything that you feel deficient in compared to a normal Rogue you can alleviate by making yourself a magic item or with a buff spell. I found low level Pearls of Power to be pretty awesome.
For a Halfling Sorcerer I think Fey focusing on compulsion spells with SF and GSF is a good route to go. You have good spell options at every spell level (Daze, Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy, Hold Person, Confusion, Deep Slumber, etc.) and also Scorching Ray for a ranged sneak attack.
Can I get some help optimizing an Arcane Trickster build? It is part of an encounter for a group of (4 to 6) 10th level characters. The point buy is whatever I need it to be. Core and APG only.
The party is travelling to a Duergar mine. On the way, they encounter some Svirfneblin and Pech slaves escaping from the mine - with the aid of some of their brethren. I plan for the trickster to be a Svirfneblin Wizard 3 (Illusionist)/ Rogue 3/Trickster 5.
Areas where I need help.
- Should I focus on ranged touch spell attacks? Melee touch spell attacks? Or both?
- Which metamagic feats should I use and for which spells?
- Any reason to focus on weapons as well?
- Feat recommendations? Gear?
Any and all help is appreciated.
What exactly is the role supposed to be played by this character? Is he opposition? A distrusting neutral? It sounds like this a friendly assisting NPC type. In that case he really doesn't need to be super optimal as it's assumed the PC's are still going to be doing the heavy lifting anyway. Is he supposed to be there for one encounter and then go on his merry way?
Disposable party enemy. Along with some normal Svirfneblin, some normal Pech, and a Pech with levels - either druid or most likely ranger.
The party is evil and allied with the duergar, so they will most likely try to capture and/or kill the escaping slaves.
What exactly is the role supposed to be played by this character? Is he opposition? A distrusting neutral? It sounds like this a friendly assisting NPC type. In that case he really doesn't need to be super optimal as it's assumed the PC's are still going to be doing the heavy lifting anyway. Is he supposed to be there for one encounter and then go on his merry way?
Basically I see the encounter unfolding like this.
The svirfneblin trickster and pech ranger have helped 20 slaves escape - 10 deep gnomes and 10 pech. They encounter the party in an underdark tunnel and must get past them to escape.
Odds are they will be unable to do this without being noticed by at least one party member. When the fight begins, the ranger and trickster's goals to hold off the party while the others escape.
The AT should have greater invisibility up and use ranged touch spells for sneak attacks. Scorching ray is an obvious one, but acid arrow will force spell casters to make concentration checks to cast the next round or two.
He should keep it up (maybe with a fly spell going on) until the PCs try to dispel his magic (don't fly too high). If he's got enough magic, put greater invis on the ranger, too.
Your best attacks will be ranged touch spells at 30' or less. All else is failure for an AT.
Might I suggest wizard11? Give him stealth and feats to augment it then focus on the illusions... a 4d6 sneak attack isn't going to be much to offset missing out on 5th and 6th level spells.
Misdirection and the like might be more interesting anyway than a brute weak sneak attack... After all their goal will be to have the slaves escape rather than to damage the party.
Imagine what they'll think if the illusionist leads them into a fight with a native critter down there... it could be a really fun thing.
-James
OK I am liking what you are saying here.
The svirfneblin was originally going to be an illusionist, in fact I was going to use both the illusionist and the trickster. Then I thought there would be too much overlap, so why not make it one trickster/illusionist. It seemed like a good idea at the time. I am trying to find more reasons to use the "outside the box" classes and prestige classes.
I am trying to find ways to use the illusions to make the escape. Like false walls on either side of the tunnel - but they would surely hear the slaves. I like the "lead them into another fight" idea. I could have them draw the party into the creatures lair - past the hiding slaves... this could work.
Is it too soon to use the neothelid....
Another consideration is the other arcane class that can be a trickster. With medium BAB and d8 hp, a bard 7/rog 3/ AT 10 would get 17th level bard spells, a BAB of 14 and 7d6 sneak attack. Probably not what most bard players are after, but it could be cool in the right game.
Bard / Rogue / Arcane Trickster isn't a bad combination at all. Especially if your bard is of the Magician Archetype. If you go Bard (Magician) 6 / Rogue 3, you can use your Expanded Repertoire ability to gain Scorching Ray (which is unarguably the best spell to be a Trickster with, according to this forum).
Or better yet, you could go Magus / Rogue. I wonder why no one has talked about the fun you can have mixing Arcane Trickster with the Arcane Base Class? An Arcane Trickster with the Hexblade archetype sounds like it could end up being one big headache for your enemy.
I have shown you your damage is off for an arcane trickster because they do less with sneak attack.No, you misread my post and claimed some sort of victory based on a 15th level AT only being able to deal 480 damage or so with a 5th level spell.
Now the AT, which I haven't done out, would have around a +28 to hit (7BAB +10INT +2unseen +1 haste +1competence +2morale +4magic +1luck) against a target denied their DEX score, so likely is hitting on close to a 2 and critically hitting on a 20.. thus the 480 damage is close for a non-flatfooted AC of 31.
Now against a flatfooted AC of 38 you still have enough to deal over the 260ish hps that the creature should have on average.
So there's your AT done out.
His gear: +6INT item (36k), boots of speed(12k), luck stone(20k), ioun stone (cracked)(4k), sniper goggles (20k), 50 adamantine arrows, etc=95k gold which leaves him plenty.. perhaps even picking up that staff of TK that I did out earlier for added firepower.
Active spells: Heroism (extended via rod.. 3k gold), GMW (CL 16 extended via rod), flame arrow (CL 16 extended via rod) [likely have 2-3 lesser extend rods for 6-9k gold).
As to what's 'useful' to the AT.. a redesign of his class is most useful. Needing to rely on ignoring a perfectly fine and reasonable 3.5 ruling because they haven't copied it for the new edition is not a good thing.
If you are the DM of your group, then I'd suggest that you rework the AT into being done well. Give them 6 skills/level, medium BAB, and then work in rogue talents, and give them class abilities to help being a trickster. The ranged legerdemain is a nice start, but the rest falls woefully short.
-James
Your entire argument is based on the telekinesis spell. Easier for me to change that one spell than to change the Arcane Trickster.
Your suggestions hold no weight. Just as your assertion the arcane trickster is a poor class holds no weight. As does your assertion that I need to use the volley rule. You have not made a compelling argument in support of your assertions.
I have spelled out for you multiple ways to make your attack completely ineffective. Something that is much harder to do with classes other than the rogue. You have conveniently ignored how even a second level blur spell eliminates your volley attempt.
You have also not bothered to answer how often you will be able to attack an enemy at 900 feet away with a volley of arrows. No surprise that you have conveniently ignored that detail in your posts knowing full well it is a rarity.
You also are not taking into account the extreme damage other classes obtain a few levels past 15. While your Arcane Trickster or Rogue is still stuck doing his telekinetic arrow volley, his compatriots are now outputting fairly equal damage with less defenses.
D&D revolves around combat unless you tailor a campaign to do otherwise. And the Arcane Trickster is the most combat effective rogue option at the moment. With that telekinetic attack, they might be able to do an impressive attack on occasion.
You're very focused on lvl 15 when this attack is at its optimal level in relation to the other classes. It's effectiveness becomes reduced as you continue up in level. It is not an easy attack to maintain consistently. It's a one trick pony that once you figure it out, you can pretty much render it useless and then kill the Arcane Trickster or Rogue with fair ease. They usually don't have many hit points. A nice finger of death or similar spell and their dead.
I have already run an Arcane Trickster without the volley rule. I've already experienced in game what they can do. They average 33d6 to 39d6 damage. 115 to 129 damage with a scorching ray volley.
That is 2 hits from the two-hander warrior.
That is 3 hits from barbarian.
It is a round of hits for the zen archer monk.
It is one Caustic Eruption for the orc/dragon cross-blooded sorcerer. If he quickens a spell, he does far more damage.
I can't judge the mystic theurge because the spells he uses are either Save or suck or do nothing.
So I'm not going to make some adjustment to a class based on one spell being out of hand. You are basing your entire argument on the telekinesis spell. Without that spell, you basically have no argument. I would rather house rule that single spell, then change around an entire class. I know with absolute certainty that scorching ray with sneak attack is pretty far from overpowered. Even Contigious Flame is fairly on par with damage at same level. So not going to change the Arcane Trickster or the follow the volley rule. About the only thing I might do is house rule the telekinesis spell if it becomes an issue.
Strawman.
So, I guess you allow Pathfinder monks to flurry with one hand while using Two-Weapon Fighting to make additional "off-hand" attacks (3.5 FAQ), even though Pathfinder prohibits it.There are many small changes between 3.5 and Pathfinder. It's compatible, not the exact same system.
Sarcasm, actually.
Sorry to bring up this old thread, but I came across this post and it is almost exactly what I'm looking for.I would like to know what order you would take these classes and feats.
After further consideration, the last two levels should be in arcane archer instead of wizard for the BAB, Enhance Arrows (elemental), and Seeker Arrow. Spellcasting progression is the same; the extra +1 damage with Intense Spells and +1 use of Versatile Evocation from favored class bonus is worth the trade (IMO).
Elf (Favored Class: Wizard)
12+ Str, 16+ Dex, 15+ Int (after racial adjustments; values depend on generation method; Dex should be your highest score, followed by Int)
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), one other (a campaign trait may be required; otherwise, Reactionary/Warrior of Old is probably the best choice)
Rog 1- Point Blank Shot
Rog 2- Rogue Talent (Snap Shot or Surprise Attack)
Rog 3- Precise Shot
Wiz 1- +1 Int; +1/2 use of Versatile Evocation; Arcane Bond (ring)
Wiz 2- +1/2 use of Versatile Evocation; Craft Wondrous Item (make/upgrade your own belt of incredible dexterity and headband of vast intelligence, among other items)
Wiz 3- +1 hp
AT 1- Craft Wand (mainly ranged touch spells, spectral hand, and staple buffs)
AT 2- +1 Int
AT 3- Craft Magic Arms and Armor
AT 4
AT 5- Weapon Focus (Longbow)
AT 6- +1 Int
AA 1- Reach Spell (to expand your ranged touch selections; Sneak Attack with a Reach vampiric touch >:D )
AA 2
AT 7- Quicken Spell
AT 8- +1 Int
AT 9- Intensified Spell (to add more damage to low-level spells; an Intensified Reach shocking grasp does up to 10d6 electrical damage and takes up a 3rd-level spell slot; an Intensified fireball does up to 15d6 damage and takes up a 4th-level spell slot)
AT 10
AA 3- Maximize Spell (an Intensified Maximized fireball does 90 damage and takes up a 7th-level spell slot; better in most circustances than a delayed blast fireball, even with the lower save DC)
AA 4- +1 Int
Note that if your Dex is an odd number, then one of the advancements should be in Dex. Also note that the order you take the last for feats can be switched around to suit your playstyle or the circumstances of the campaign/group.