So if I am understanding this correctly, the only way I can have a familiar as a sorcerer is to have the Arcane Bloodline? Seriously? Is there at least a feat or something I can take to get a familiar as a different bloodline? I don't understand why I can't play an Infernalist sorcerer with a pet imp. :(
Yes, Arcane BL is the only BL (so far) that includes the Familiar, being the `standard` Sorceror meant to most correspond to the 3.5 sorceror (who had a Familiar). I recommend you buy Ultimate Magic (after the 2nd printing, because of Errata), and you can use the Eldritch Heritage Feats (a chain of 3). The very first Feat will get you the Familiar (with special abilities trailing 3 levels behind, but they don`t really matter all that much), and you can take the subsequent Feats if you want further higher level features of the Arcane BL.
I believe you can take it at 3rd level, and the Pre-Req besides a decent CHA is Skill Focus in the `appropriate` BL skill, which in the case of the Arcane BL would be Knowledge: Arcana... (some BL`s Bonus Feats include Skill Focus` that correspond to other BL`s Class Skill, which is convenient for this... Draconic has Skill Focus:Know:Arcana)
How are Familiars more powerful in the hands of a Sorceror than a Wizard?
I mean, Sure, a Familiar is a powerful option for either, and a Bonded Item is relatively less poweful for a Sorceror than a Wizard, but I don`t see how a Sorceror`s Familiar is more powerful than a Wizards... care to enlighten me?
I`m also curious about your argument, since the STANDARD Sorceror DOES get a Familiar...
Wouldn't it be possible to take a different bloodline then the Eldritch Heritage feats to gain the aforementioned familar?
I'd like to second that question. Why are Sorcerers better with familiars than are Wizards?
As for why the ability to have a familiar is more powerful in the hands of a Sorcerer than in the hands of a Wizard, it is because Sorcerers typically have a much higher Use Magic Device skill. This means that a familiar belonging to a Sorcerer is much more capable of becoming, in essence, a second spell caster.
Hm. Now I know what the heck you were talking about :-) ...I disagree... Here´s why:
Wizards use INT and so have plenty of skill ranks... They are also continually upgrading their INT, so EVEN IF they themselves don`t plan on EVER using UMD (which is silly, some off-list scrolls can always be useful, e.g. HEALING), it`s super easy to add a maxed out UMD skill AT THE POINT when their Familiar can reliably make use of it.
A Sorceror doesn`t have many Skill Ranks to begin with, so investing in UMD is a signifigant investment for them (competing vs. useful stuff like Perception, Acrobatics, not to mention other stuff like social skills to leverage their CHA, nor Spellcraft, etc). If they are learning the skill normally (as opposed to INT Headband) they are putting ranks into it at every level, but not until mid-levels does the UMD check become reliable for their Familiar to make... The Sorceror can also grab an INT ioun stone, but that is just an additional expense (the Wizard buffs their INT anyways, even if they didn`t gain any skills, while for the Sorceror the skill is the ONLY thing they get out of it... OK and the extra language as well).
Which leads to the third aspect, the Familiar doesn`t benefit from the Sorceror`s CHA modifier when making the check (which otherwise lets the Sorceror who DOES max UMD themself use it reliably a good number of levels earlier than the Wizard), so both the Wizard and Sorceror`s Familiar will be able to reliably use UMD at the exact same level.
...So I don`t see the Sorceror`s Familiar being a better UMD-er than the Wizard´s, and I find them both just about as likely to max UMD - In the Sorceror`s case, perhaps they ARE more likely, because it makes up for their own limited spells known, but the Wizard doesn`t really have a lack of skil ranks at mid-levels (when a Familiar can reliably use UMD) so adding UMD to their Headband isn`t really a big loss for them, and a UMD-ing Familiar is just as awesome for a Wizard as a Sorceror. Now you can say that the Sorceror will get more out of UMD than the Wizard, and I`d agree (giving more options than the limited Spells Known), but I don`t think there is a power difference between their Familiars.
Wizards also have their Arcane Discoveries, which make Wizards better at using Wands, including non-Arcane wands apparently, so that is a benefit of UMD that Sorcerors can`t get (unless Paizo Errata`s the Discoveries to also be open to Sorcerors... a change I would approve of)
I`m pretty sure Familiars don`t gain Class Skill bonuses from the Master... At least the basic Familiar ability text on Skills doesn`t mention that. Dragons and Fey type creatures have UMD as a Class Skill, which can be something in their favor when selecting an Improved Familiar.
EDIT: Yup, no mention of Class Skills from Master, it`s only RANKS of Master...
There's also a fancy feat called Evolved Familiar. Let's you get a free evolution point for your familiar. Drop that bad boy into UMB for a cool +8 on top of everything else.
There's also a fancy feat called Evolved Familiar. Let's you get a free evolution point for your familiar. Drop that bad boy into UMB for a cool +8 on top of everything else.
Where did you get that feat from?
On a more over-the-top, lolcats note:I CAN HAZ FEAT?!?!
It's in Ultimate Magic. I just noticed it the other day. Only pre-reqs are Int 13, Cha 13, and to have a familiar. It can be taken multiple times as well if you feel the need.
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There's also a fancy feat called Evolved Familiar. Let's you get a free evolution point for your familiar. Drop that bad boy into UMB for a cool +8 on top of everything else.
Where did you get that feat from?
On a more over-the-top, lolcats note:I CAN HAZ FEAT?!?!
Ultimate Magic. I used it on my Dwarven Cleric/Witch so my Snapping Turtle has Fire Resist so I can use him for blacksmithing tongs. Has prodigy giving hims class skill ranks in Craft Blacksmith and Profession Innkeeper. :D
I`m pretty sure Familiars don`t gain Class Skill bonuses from the Master... At least the basic Familiar ability text on Skills doesn`t mention that. Dragons and Fey type creatures have UMD as a Class Skill, which can be something in their favor when selecting an Improved Familiar.
EDIT: Yup, no mention of Class Skills from Master, it`s only RANKS of Master...
Yeah if you have a quote to say that they get the class skill bonus that would be great, cuz I sure as hell have never seen it.
I also generally don't allow familiars to be wand wielders or magic item users in general. Then again if you really want your familiar bumped up in target priority....
Sure do -- after all it's a question of where your target priority is in the first place -- the familiar costs me next to nothing, and his wand of haste compared to the spells I'm casting really isn't going to seem so bad. Also compared to the fighter in the enemy's face, or the other party members -- the foe has to get to where he can strike the familiar and then has to ask himself what he's really getting by killing the familiar -- the haste spell is already up, and the fighter is still swinging on him while whatever I did is taking effect too.
Higher in priority is still going to be last on priority -- just means he's got more to worry about.
And the more you can give your foe to think on the more likely he is to make a mistake.
I also generally don't allow familiars to be wand wielders or magic item users in general. Then again if you really want your familiar bumped up in target priority....Sure do -- after all it's a question of where your target priority is in the first place -- the familiar costs me next to nothing, and his wand of haste compared to the spells I'm casting really isn't going to seem so bad. Also compared to the fighter in the enemy's face, or the other party members -- the foe has to get to where he can strike the familiar and then has to ask himself what he's really getting by killing the familiar -- the haste spell is already up, and the fighter is still swinging on him while whatever I did is taking effect too.
Higher in priority is still going to be last on priority -- just means he's got more to worry about.
And the more you can give your foe to think on the more likely he is to make a mistake.
I'm confused on how the familiar is actually able to uses a wand. How could they activate it. They can't talk, so how would they activate the wand/command word? And unless it is a monkey how would they hold the wand? And please don't say they "put it in their mouth", because you try aiming something effectively when it is in your mouth.
I'm confused on how the familiar is actually able to uses a wand. How could they activate it. They can't talk, so how would they activate the wand/command word? And unless it is a monkey how would they hold the wand? And please don't say they "put it in their mouth", because you try aiming something effectively when it is in your mouth.I also generally don't allow familiars to be wand wielders or magic item users in general. Then again if you really want your familiar bumped up in target priority....Sure do -- after all it's a question of where your target priority is in the first place -- the familiar costs me next to nothing, and his wand of haste compared to the spells I'm casting really isn't going to seem so bad. Also compared to the fighter in the enemy's face, or the other party members -- the foe has to get to where he can strike the familiar and then has to ask himself what he's really getting by killing the familiar -- the haste spell is already up, and the fighter is still swinging on him while whatever I did is taking effect too.
Higher in priority is still going to be last on priority -- just means he's got more to worry about.
And the more you can give your foe to think on the more likely he is to make a mistake.
Well I have seen the argument made that a raven can use them as they can talk and (God I hope) have maxed ranks in UMD.
But normally when people talk about familiar wand platforms they are useing an Imp or some type of dragon. Both can fly, hold a wand and speak. Also Mephits (Sp?) are good for that.
Yes, I believe Raven is the only `Core` basic Familiar that can UMD Wands.
Holding a Wand isn`t really the problem, this isn`t wielding a weapon, you just need to hold onto it,
which a Raven has claws for, and Ravens can speak, which is the method for activating a Wand (command word).
(Monkeys have thumbs but can`t speak... So they would be better at using/administering Potions and Alchemical items, but not Wands)
I would probably rule a Raven *cannot* UMD a standard Scroll, unless they have something like Mage Hand to help them unfurl it, etc.
But most Familiar-addicts get Improved Familiar sometime between 5th and 9th level,
most of whose options have thumbs/object manipulation, speech, along with other abilities.
I`m pretty sure Familiars don`t gain Class Skill bonuses from the Master... At least the basic Familiar ability text on Skills doesn`t mention that. Dragons and Fey type creatures have UMD as a Class Skill, which can be something in their favor when selecting an Improved Familiar.
EDIT: Yup, no mention of Class Skills from Master, it`s only RANKS of Master...
Yeah if you have a quote to say that they get the class skill bonus that would be great, cuz I sure as hell have never seen it.
From the SRD
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
Yeah if you have a quote to say that they get the class skill bonus that would be great, cuz I sure as hell have never seen it.
Oh how I wish that'd be the case but, alas, I've never seen it either.
Evolved Familiar -> Skilled (UMD) -> +8 Racial bonus to UMD
'Nuff Said.
I'm confused on how the familiar is actually able to uses a wand. How could they activate it. They can't talk, so how would they activate the wand/command word? And unless it is a monkey how would they hold the wand? And please don't say they "put it in their mouth", because you try aiming something effectively when it is in your mouth.
Ah you are under the impression that I have a *normal* familiar -- I went for improved familiar though, most of which have hands and the ability to speak.
For a regular familiar however I would probably go with a monkey, if people are really torn up about the voice I point you to the tongues spell and permanency.
Yes, I believe Raven is the only `Core` basic Familiar that can UMD Wands.
Holding a Wand isn`t really the problem, this isn`t wielding a weapon, you just need to hold onto it,
which a Raven has claws for, and Ravens can speak, which is the method for activating a Wand (command word).
(Monkeys have thumbs but can`t speak... So they would be better at using/administering Potions and Alchemical items, but not Wands)
I would probably rule a Raven *cannot* UMD a standard Scroll, unless they have something like Mage Hand to help them unfurl it, etc.But most Familiar-addicts get Improved Familiar sometime between 5th and 9th level,
most of whose options have thumbs/object manipulation, speech, along with other abilities.
Other options include spreading the scroll for the familiar or unseen servant.
Ah you are under the impression that I have a *normal* familiar -- I went for improved familiar though, most of which have hands and the ability to speak.
For a regular familiar however I would probably go with a monkey, if people are really torn up about the voice I point you to the tongues spell and permanency.
You are correct. Thank you for clearing that up for me. I never went the familiar rout because in the old system, (3.5), if they died many horrible things happened to the wizard, re-reading it now I see that it just costs you money to get a new one. I may have to rethink using familiars.
Best uses I ever saw was a wizard that had a blink dog, and a spell that let him take two targets and have them swap places. The slow moving fighter was never far from battle now. =)
Ravens are not raptors... they really don't have the equipment to hold an average wand. thier feet are just that.... feet. Pseudodragons are also out because they have no natural voice. They either chirp or use telepathy to communicate.Yes, I believe Raven is the only `Core` basic Familiar that can UMD Wands.
Holding a Wand isn`t really the problem, this isn`t wielding a weapon, you just need to hold onto it,
which a Raven has claws for, and Ravens can speak, which is the method
To be clear Pseudodragons often communicate only in chirps, clicks and purrs -- but they can speak draconic. Generally they don't need to however due to the telepathy.
Finally I'm curious why everyone thinks vocalization is mandatory -- especially of words. The command word could just as easily be a specific sound that the familiar in question can make. In fact this would be a great choice since you would be unlikely to trigger it on accident or have the command word be something that someone else could figure out easily.
In fact the very notion of a command word is well stupid any more. If you have the spell on your list you can use the wand -- it doesn't matter what the command word is -- you can use it. Use magic device doesn't let you figure out the command word, instead it lets you force the magic item to work for you anyways. At that point the word doesn't matter it's just a matter of the familiar forcing it to work properly with the skill check.
Any claims to the contrary will have me asking people for the command word for each and every command word item they give out for now on -- and once I have the command word I will insist that since I have it I don't actually have to make a UMD check to use the particular item.
Finally wands are spell trigger, not command word activated.
So...
If you couldn't go the UMD route with familiars, would you still want a familiar?
What LazarX said -- familiars have more uses than some player characters.
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What LazarX said -- familiars have more uses than some player characters.So...
If you couldn't go the UMD route with familiars, would you still want a familiar?
I agree, but I also often see the "familiars are amazing" line combined with the "UMD Improved Familiar" line. It seems like so often it's UMD or go home, that I wonder if UMD is the only thing a familiar should be doing. Nonsense.
Heck, I once had a weasel familiar that was an astounding information gatherer who even had an honest-to-goodness kill count. So, yeah, familiars rock.
What LazarX said -- familiars have more uses than some player characters.
Quite true. My little ol air elemental familiar has served admirably as scout, rapid party mass transport (via a handy haversack) and, until very recently, held the party's record for single-round damage output and largest solo-kill body count for a single combat. She also has the distinction of getting the kill shot on a module's fleeing BBEG (the Skinsaw Muders' Xanesha if anyone is curious).
Finally I'm curious why everyone thinks vocalization is mandatory -- especially of words. The command word could just as easily be a specific sound that the familiar in question can make. In fact this would be a great choice since you would be unlikely to trigger it on accident or have the command word be something that someone else could figure out easily.
In fact the very notion of a command word is well stupid any more. If you have the spell on your list you can use the wand -- it doesn't matter what the command word is -- you can use it. Use magic device doesn't let you figure out the command word, instead it lets you force the magic item to work for you anyways. At that point the word doesn't matter it's just a matter of the familiar forcing it to work properly with the skill check.
Any claims to the contrary will have me asking people for the command word for each and every command word item they give out for now on -- and once I have the command word I will insist that since I have it I don't actually have to make a UMD check to use the particular item.
Finally wands are spell trigger, not command word activated.
The idea of a wand with the command word being a collection of sounds the familiar can uses, is a great idea. But unless you create the wand, or pay to have it done, the creator must also be able to make the sounds as well. If you can get all of that past your GM, works for me.
As a point, all magic items are command word unless stated otherwise. So collecting command words is kind of the normal. And most GMs I have played with no longer make you do a UMD roll once you have used the item enough times. But that is them.
Spell Trigger
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell
completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell
finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting
that an appropriate character would know, and a single word
that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone
whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case
even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a
3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is
stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell
trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks
of opportunity.
Spell trigger still needs a single spoke word. Silence spell is seeming a little more powerful now.
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Finally wands are spell trigger, not command word activated.
Wand activation:
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
So Abrahm is right and most familiars can UMD them with ease.
thebluecanary post create an interesting problem. What is the "dominant" rule? The one under wand: activation or the one generic one for spell triggers?
Generally I go specific over generic.
Here's part of the problem with the 'single word' theory -- how do you automatically know the single word for every wand on the planet of spells that happen to be on your spell list?
And if the single word is so easily known -- why doesn't everyone know it?
At the end of the day use magic device covers situations where you don't know or are incapable of correctly using the wand.
Using a single word is the correct way. Barking out a string of sounds and hoping it activates anyways because you really want it too? That's UMD -- and that's exactly what the familiar is doing.
I agree with Abe`s point above, but on a RAW basis, I would say that BOTH Spell Trigger (general) and Wand rules (specific) apply. Wands have MORE requirements on how to activate them, but it doesn`t have anything which cancels out the general rules.
That said, it should be simple enough to have the command word be something speakable by any Familiar, this just requires custom crafting the item (since real Human languages have words derived from animal sounds, I don`t see a problem qualifying as a `word`).
...About Raven grasping Wands, I don`t see a problem with their carrying capacity, and if they can grasp a stick/branch to perch on (I can certainly see them perching on a Wand), I would say the anatomy exists to grasp a Wand whether or not they are using it to support their own weight.
Um...just take Skill Focus: Knowledge skill (Core), Eldritch Heritage: Arcane (UM), and Improved Familiar (Core) and your infernal sorcerer can have an imp familiar.
Not so very hard at all. Heck, I could make a fighter with a familiar the same way, no spellcasting required at all.
Here's part of the problem with the 'single word' theory -- how do you automatically know the single word for every wand on the planet of spells that happen to be on your spell list?
You learn the command word when you identify the magic item. You know the command word when you create the item/wand.
You don't just pick up any wand and just "know" what spell is in it. You need to identify the wand, and learn about it. Just like any other magic item, be it a wand, scroll, sword, or potion.
And honestly I LIKE the idea of a wand you have to bark to activate. But without hand or hand-like bits, it would be hard for them to just pick it up. On the other hand, I wouldn't see an issue with creating something that holds it for them, like a wand strapped to the head of the dog. But your GM might want to give some kind of penalties or what not.
Do you have to an intelligence over 3 before you can use UMD?
Do you have to an intelligence over 3 before you can use UMD?
I would say you have to have an INT of 3 or higher for any skill that can't be used untrained. That would be my personal rule of thumb (although racoons my get a special racial dispensation on Disable Device). :)
BTW: Been meaning to ask, do you live in/near St. Louis?