
Buba HoTep |
So I'm still not sure whether I'll stay vanilla Magus or Bladebound, but in the meantime, I'm looking at the Magus Arcana and trying to figure out what I want and when I want it.
Which Arcana can't you live without? Which seem utterly useless? Which do you consider an efficient way of spending APs and which are uniquely powerful but costly?
I'm just looking to start a discussion on what we have (official) access to now, and later what are some suggestions for future releases.

Thazar |

Close Arcana is the only one I envision taking on every magus and always at the first opportunity. This allows many more spell options with Spell Combat and Spell Strike. If noting else it lets you Acid Splash for a free extra attack kind of like rapid shot or flurry.
I am also a huge fan of Spell Blending to take two spells from with wizard list to add to your character's spell book. That can usually wait until a little higher level.
Concentration, Spell Shield, Arcane Accuracy, and the wand ones are all worth thinking about but depend on the character and play style.
Pool Strike is probably the only one I would never consider myself.

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My opinions on the various Magus Arcana are floating about in other threads, but for a quick answer, the two you want are:
Familiar - a familiar rocks for a Magus (familiars use their master's BAB, and half their master's Hit Points - so a Magus will tend to have a better familiar than other classes which can get them), the three new 'small' sized familiars (donkey rat, goat, and pig) actually work as combat support, and the Improved Familiar Feat is almost a must (to get a small elemental at the very least).
Close Range - this lets you spam Spellstrike for the extra attack all day, every day, via the Ray of Frost cantrip.
If noting else it lets you Acid Splash for a free extra attack kind of like rapid shot or flurry.
Note that Close Range only works with 'ray' spells - so Acid Spash doesn't work with it - stick to Ray of Frost.
Edit: and / or Disrupt Undead if fighting undead...

B0sh1 |

Close Range Arcana for using it with cantrips like ray of frost, Familiar (if not Bladebound), and the two Wand ones if you're looking to conserve points.
I'd probably take Maximize just for a once a day burst power to amp up the damage an intensifed shocking grasp, possibly take Empower. Again, the once a day arcana you have to be super certain that you're in a situation to blow your "daily" ability.
Critical Strike could really turn things nasty when you crit. You should obviously maximize your crit chance if you want this one but you have to be cautious with your use of swift actions when fishing for a crit. So, Arcane strike and other swift action arcana can be a barrier to getting use out of this.
I'd also consider reflection if I got high enough but again that's a arcane pool burner. Hasted Assault gives a better return than most but by then you can just have haste memorized. There may be some potential with Spell Blending if there's a must-have spell to put into your repertoire.
The ones that last a single turn (Spell Shield, Arcane accuracy etc) are just there for point burning.
Overall, Arcana are mediocre but there's more coming with Ultimate Combat.

B0sh1 |

B0sh1 wrote:Really? Where'd you see that?
Overall, Arcana are mediocre but there's more coming with Ultimate Combat.
From the UC product listing.
Ultimate Combat includes:
New player character options for 14 Pathfinder RPG base classes, including alchemist discoveries, barbarian rage powers, cavalier orders, combat-cleric archetypes, animal shaman druids, new fighter archetypes like gladiator and armor master, inquisitor archetypes like witch-hunter or infiltrator, combat-themed magus arcana, monk archetypes based on mastery of martial arts, new paladin archetypes like angelic warrior, ranger archetypes like big game hunter and trapper, new rogue tricks, and wizard archetypes like the gunmage.
The ninja, samurai, and gunslinger, brand-new 20-level alternate classes specially designed to get the most out of combat
Hundreds of new combat-oriented feats including martial arts feat trees, finishing moves, and combination feats
In-depth overviews on a variety of combat-related topics, such as armor, Asian weapons, duels, fighting schools, guns, siege weapons, and more
A complete system covering vehicle combat, including wagons, boats, airships, and more
Tons of optional combat rules like called shots, armor as damage reduction, and new ways to track character health
…and much, much more!

Yosho |
I don't think any of the arcana are must haves. They really depend on your build and campaign. I can tell you that pool strike and dispelling strike look like horrible choices. Pool strikes benefits over recalling a spell sees to be that it can be of any element and ignores sr. Dispelling strike is just too expensive. It might be useful if you don't use any other abilities that use arcane pool but simply spellcombating dispel magic seems much more efficient. Even more so after you get improved spell recall.

B0sh1 |

When looking at arcana, something to bear in mind is that Close Range and Wand Wielder essentially accomplish the same main goal which is to facilitate the extra attack during the full round action of Spell Combat + Spellstrike.
Close Range does allow you to Spell Strike rays but the damage is calculated with a singular ray, so in the case of scorching ray, it may just be better to opt for the normal ranged touch attack instead of spell striking. It's also just a single arcana investment.
Wand Wielder allows you to use your wand for more of a punch instead of spamming a cantrip but you'll need to invest in Wand mastery to raise the DC of the spell being cast out. A low level wand of shocking grasp is inexpensive and should be easy to recharge in most game. 2 arcana slots though. However, some game settings may diminish the ability to use this arcana.

Buba HoTep |
TarkXT wrote:I personally prefer to use wand wielder with the ridiculous UMD skill.That's a good point TarkXT, if you go wand wielder, you also need to allocate skill points to UMD, it becomes part and parcel of utilizing the Wand wielder arcana.
Why would you need UMD if you already have that spell (say Shocking Grasp) on your spell list?

TarkXT |

B0sh1 wrote:Why would you need UMD if you already have that spell (say Shocking Grasp) on your spell list?TarkXT wrote:I personally prefer to use wand wielder with the ridiculous UMD skill.That's a good point TarkXT, if you go wand wielder, you also need to allocate skill points to UMD, it becomes part and parcel of utilizing the Wand wielder arcana.
Because calcific touch, among others, are not.

Narrater |

Profpotts I believe acid splash is a valid cantrip for Spellstrike since under the Aiming a spell headline and Effect sub headline they go over different effects and acid splash seems to fall under the ray description since it is treated as a ranged touch attack. I know that it says missile under effect but I haven't found any description of what a spell missile effect is as supposed to be but ray effects are actually written out.
I would say Spell Blending is a definite option for your first magus arcana to pick up touch of fatigue for spellstrike spamming and one other cantrip such as mending a useful spell for a fighter oriented caster like the magus for when their weapons gain the broken condition.
I had favored close range as a first selection previously to spam spellstrike with the damage cantrip's and because of what I perceived as the added options but having looked over the magus list more closely it seems their is only a handful of ray spells on the list and of them some lose potency when used this way. Taking a closer look at it made me change my mind. It still has its uses but I don't feel it is a absolute no brainer any more.
I can see arcane accuracy as a 2nd or third choice to even the odds when facing those high AC targets that the magus may have difficulty hitting when stepping into the fighters shoes.
Familiars are nice and it has been previously mentioned they will be hardier then the typical familiar.
Maneuver mastery could be a definite possibility at any level but it is character build dependent to get the most from the ability. Such as the trip feat chain after selecting the trip maneuver.

james maissen |
Close Range - this lets you spam Spellstrike for the extra attack all day, every day, via the Ray of Frost cantrip.
Doesn't arcane mark do the same? Or spell blending for touch of fatigue (and another cantrip)?
What other spells do you see being up use with 'Close Range'? I liked the idea, but then they killed scorching ray with it.
-James

B0sh1 |

Close Range does specify ray spells versus any spell that is ranged touch.
Close Range (Ex): The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells. He can use a ranged touch attack spell that targets more than one creature (such as scorching ray), but he makes only one melee touch attack to deliver one of these ranged touch effects; additional ranged touch attacks from that spell are wasted and have no effect. These spells can be used with the spellstrike class feature.
If you wanted to house rule it to work with ANY ranged touch attack, it would certainly increase the number of spells that could be used with the arcana.

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Profpotts I believe acid splash is a valid cantrip for Spellstrike since under the Aiming a spell headline and Effect sub headline they go over different effects and acid splash seems to fall under the ray description since it is treated as a ranged touch attack. I know that it says missile under effect but I haven't found any description of what a spell missile effect is as supposed to be but ray effects are actually written out.
Ray spells are specifically called out as such in the descriptions. It's important since you can take things like 'Weapon Focus (rays)' and the like.
Doesn't arcane mark do the same? Or spell blending for touch of fatigue (and another cantrip)?
You can't Spellstrike with Arcane Mark, because that cantrip is a 'range: touch' spell, not a 'melee touch attack' spell (which seems to be needed for Spellstrike). Touch of Fatigue would work though, if you want to blow an arcana on cantrips. Going Hexcrafter and taking the Accursed Strike arcana would allow you to spam Spellsrike with the Brand orison (because it's a curse spell), which is the option you really want if you want to go all Zorro on your opponent's face... ;)

james maissen |
You can't Spellstrike with Arcane Mark, because that cantrip is a 'range: touch' spell, not a 'melee touch attack' spell (which seems to be needed for Spellstrike). Touch of Fatigue would work though, if you want to blow an arcana on cantrips. Going Hexcrafter and taking the Accursed Strike arcana would allow you to spam Spellsrike with the Brand orison (because it's a curse spell), which is the option you really want if you want to go all Zorro on your opponent's face... ;)
I don't understand the distinction.
A range touch spell would require a melee touch attack to deliver upon an unwilling target.
From the SRD:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
And
Range touch
So what's the problem here?
As to 'blowing an arcana for orisons' if it does the same as the arcana that you are getting for the same thing, what's the difference? That's why I was asking you what else did you see getting out of close range arcana?
-James

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Your Spellstrike quote stops a bit short, since the text goes on...
'... Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell...'
Arcane Mark has a range of touch, but doesn't allow a free melee touch attack as part of the spell - it's not a melee touch attack spell (which are called out in the spell descriptions). If was meant as a melee touch attack spell it'd note that... and would probably allow a save as well (since a cantrip which can write all over someone's face without a save seems a little more than was intended in its use...). So I guess, yes, you could Spellstrike with it if you wanted, but you'd not get the free attack out of it, so why bother?
As far as blowing Arcana for orisons goes, it's a simple case of the Close Range Arcana scaling with the character, since you can use it for all rays. If you happen to have two cantrips you're really keen to get, then I'm not saying there's anything wrong with spending an Arcana to get them (me, I like cantrips a lot!) - just that if you're doing it only to spam Spellstrike, then it's probably not as good an option as Close Range.

james maissen |
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Arcane Mark has a range of touch, but doesn't allow a free melee touch attack as part of the spell - it's not a melee touch attack spell (which are called out in the spell descriptions). If was meant as a melee touch attack spell it'd note that... and would probably allow a save as well (since a cantrip which can write all over someone's face without a save seems a little more than was intended in its use...). So I guess, yes, you could Spellstrike with it if you wanted, but you'd not get the free attack out of it, so why bother?
Umm, no. If you try to cast arcane mark on an unwilling person you would indeed have to make a melee touch attack to deliver it.
You believe (and let's forget the magus here) that a wizard wouldn't able be to try to touch the victim that same round in which he casts the touch spell?
You're confused... here's a quote to help you from the SRD:
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
As far as blowing Arcana for orisons goes, it's a simple case of the Close Range Arcana scaling with the character, since you can use it for all rays. If you happen to have two cantrips you're really keen to get, then I'm not saying there's anything wrong with spending an Arcana to get them (me, I like cantrips a lot!) - just that if you're doing it only to spam Spellstrike, then it's probably not as good an option as Close Range.
Umm ray of Frost, ray of enfeeblement, scorching ray (worthless), and disintegrate are all there are for the magus list with rays.
Which one were you thinking when you mentioned 'scaling'? Waiting til 16th level when you pick up disintegrate?
-James

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I'm not 'confused' on the whole 'using a cantrip to FUBAR someone's face, with no saving throw' question - I simply have a different opinion to you as to what RAW and RAI states. So we'd better agree to disagree on that one.
As for the ray-use of Close Range scaling... well, you listed four yourself, of different levels, so job done... Want more? There's always the Spell Blending Arcana; but in simple terms: increasing in power as a character levels = scaling.

james maissen |
I'm not 'confused' on the whole 'using a cantrip to FUBAR someone's face, with no saving throw' question - I simply have a different opinion to you as to what RAW and RAI states. So we'd better agree to disagree on that one.
As for the ray-use of Close Range scaling... well, you listed four yourself, of different levels, so job done... Want more? There's always the Spell Blending Arcana; but in simple terms: increasing in power as a character levels = scaling.
So how do you think arcane mark works on someone? The spell directly mentions what happens when cast upon someone. It's range touch. The rules for range touch spells are clear, the caster gets a free touch when they cast the spell. It might seem 'omg too powerful' or something with the magus spellcombat, but there you go it's perfectly legal. I don't see where you can even look to split a hair here.
As to the ray 'scaling' I mentioned a cantrip, a level 1 spell, a level 2 spell that's nerfed into uselessness with it, and a level 6 spell. It seems we have different views on 'scaling' as well as all those levels from 2-15 without anything seem to deny that scaling. Now spell blending is a valid point, but rather than deal in abstractions here I think that you're better served in specifics.
Are you planning on spell blending for a single spell or a pair? There aren't that many rays in 2nd and (especially 3rd) level spells. There are a pair that I can think of at 4th (dim anchor and enervation) but you could use up your 12th (or 15th) level arcana for one of them, otherwise you'd have to wait til 18th or 19th level.
Again, is it just a concept or is there something useful here?
-James