|
I have been all through the books and the discussion forums about rogue skills and it seems that you can indeed take a single level of rogue and then apply your total HD to the acquired skills. This rules discrepancy makes leveling a Rogue a pointless waste of time. Since essentially it is the same as taking 1 level of wizard and gaining every spell at every level. The entire class is bought for a SINGLE level and the only thing left exclusively to the Rogue is a collection of little talents.
This essentially makes Rogues obsolete.
|
I have been all through the books and the discussion forums about rogue skills and it seems that you can indeed take a single level of rogue and then apply your total HD to the acquired skills. This rules discrepancy makes leveling a Rogue a pointless waste of time. Since essentially it is the same as taking 1 level of wizard and gaining every spell at every level. The entire class is bought for a SINGLE level and the only thing left exclusively to the Rogue is a collection of little talents.
This essentially makes Rogues obsolete.
I'm not sure what you mean by "and then apply your total HD to the acquired skills." You do get the rogue class skills just by taking a level of rogue, true, but you still only get one level's worth of skill points. Are you referring to the MAX number of skill point you can put into any given skill? In that case, I can kind of see what you're getting at, but you still only get 8 [+ INT] skill points per level, so you're hardly going to be able to max out every skill with a one level dip...
|
If I'm understanding him correctly what he's referring to is taking a level of rogue and dropping a single skill point into any/all the skills that rogues have to get the +3 class skill bonus. After that then switch to whatever class you really want to play and for all intents and purposes you have that skill on your class list now.
Add to that the iconic rogue skills are all really acquired at first level and scale as your character level (not Class level) improve, there is no point in going more than 1-2 levels into rogue and then getting out.
I don't necessarily agree with that statement but I can understand the argument.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Um... what? Let me see if I understand you correctly:
You are under the impression that taking a single level of rogue automatically gives you (HD + 3 + ability mod) in every rogue class skill? Because that is wildly incorrect.
If you take a single level of rogue, yes, all of the rogue's class skills are now "class skills" for you, meaning that as long as you invest at least one skill point in it, you get a +3 bonus on checks made with that skill. Now, the rogue class gives you 8 + INT mod. skill points, which is not nearly enough to invest a single point in EVERY skill unless your INT is like.... 50. Now, when you take a level of something else, you get the skill points FOR THAT CLASS when you level. So if you take 1 level of rogue and then 1 level of wizard, you only get 2 + INT skill points for that wizard level. Sure, you can put those points in Stealth and Disable Device if you want (they're class skills for you now!) but you're still missing out on SIX OTHER SKILLS that you put your rogue points into.
Unlike 4th Edition, you spend your skill points in Pathfinder. You don't automatically add your HD to skill checks just because it is a class skill. You have to choose which skills to assign those points to, and they can change by level. This means that a 10th-level wizard might have 10 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, but only 2 ranks in Knowledge: The Planes. They're both class skills for him, so he gets his +3 bonus on each, but his Arcana check is going to be +18 or so while his Planes is only +10.
I hope this clears things up for you.
Yeah, I think there's a bit of confusion in here.
Here are the rules on skills and skill ranks:
"Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier. Investing a rank in a skill represents a measure of training in that skill. You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack.
Table: Skill Ranks Class Skill Ranks per Level
Barbarian 4 + Int modifier
Bard 6 + Int modifier
Cleric 2 + Int modifier
Druid 4 + Int modifier
Fighter 2 + Int modifier
Monk 4 + Int modifier
Paladin 2 + Int modifier
Ranger 6 + Int modifier
Rogue 8 + Int modifier
Sorcerer 2 + Int modifier
Wizard 2 + Int modifierThe number of skill ranks you gain when taking a level in one of the base classes is shown on Table: Skill Ranks. Humans gain 1 additional skill rank per class level. Characters who take a level in a favored class have the option of gaining 1 additional skill rank or an additional hit point . If you select a level in a new class, all of its class skills are automatically added to your list of class skills, and you gain a +3 bonus on these skills if you have ranks in them.
So: let's say you have a level 1 non-human Fighter. Let's call the fighter Bob. Bob has 2 skill ranks to spend at 1st level.
Bob puts 1 skill rank into Knowledge Dungeoneering. This is a class skill, so his total modifier in Knowledge Dungeoneering is 1 rank + 3 class bonus + 0 Intelligence = +4.
Bob puts his second skill rank into Acrobatics. This is NOT a class skill for a fighter, so his modifier is just 1 + his Dexterity modifier (let's say it's +2) = +3.
NOW: Bob gains a 2nd level. He decides to take a level of Rogue. At this level, he gets 8 skill ranks to spend. He can have as many ranks in his skills as his hit dice (2), so he could put 1 point into the two skills he already has 1 skill rank, or up to 2 points into any of the other skills in which he currently has 0 ranks.
Acrobatics also becomes a class skill, so EVEN if he does not put any more ranks into Acrobatics at this level, Acrobatics gets its +3 class bonus boost.
For the purposes of our example, let's say Bob's skills now look like this:
Acrobatics 2 ranks + 3 class + 2 Dex = +7
Knowledge Local 2 ranks +3 class + 0 Int = +5
Knowledge Dungeoneering 2 ranks +3 class + 0 Int = +5
Stealth 2 ranks + 3 class + 2 Dex = +7
Survival 2 ranks + 3 class +1 Wis = +6 (he put these ranks in from his rogue level, but he gets the class bonus boost from his fighter levels)
All of Bob's other skills have no ranks in them, so untrained, they simply are an ability check and get no class bonus.
That's a healthy boost from the skills he had at first level. But it's also not insane. (Now he's also gained sneak attack 1d6 and trapfinding, but at the tradeoff of gaining no BAB this level and no bonus feat or Bravery. He's gotten a bonus to reflex saves instead of fortitude this level.)
If Bob goes back to leveling into Fighter from here on, he still can only max 2 skills at 3rd level, and to keep those skills maxed, he will only be able to put those ranks into those 2 skills. That's not a lot of power from a 1 level dip, and will be all the less so as Bob continues to level. If anything it probably helps round out Bob's concept, but a 1 level dip into rogue isn't doing anything incredible--it's doing good things, sure, but there are tradeoffs involved.
Further, compare Bob the Fighter 2/Rogue 1 to a character who has 3 levels of Rogue, and the 3rd level Rogue will wipe Bob off the charts skill-wise, as he can have 8 maxed skills (or a LOT more un-maxed skills), whereas Bob has only 2 maxed out skills at most. And the Rogue is the ONLY class that can really do that. (Likewise, Bob will be more skilled than a Fighter 3, but the Fighter 3 will be just that little better at hitting things than Bob is.)
The Rogue has its place just like any other class. It IS a fantastic class for dipping to get class skills, absolutely. But it also is fine on its own--it just depends on what you want to play and what you have the most fun doing. A lot of the Rogue talents let you do things that other classes can't do--Fast Stealth and Ledge Walker come to mind. If you don't like the class--fine. But that doesn't make it unviable just because of multiclassing.
does vivisectionist make a rogue obselete?
one level dip of rogue or urban ranger to get trapfinding.
then 19 levels of vivisectionist?
Wizards make everyone obsolete.. Except for clerics. Clerics make even wizards obsolete.
This essentially makes Rogues obsolete.
You're right, Evasion and Sneak Attack suck... wait
No alchemist can possibly make rogues obsolete, since alchemists are basically rogues that make potions, just like bards are rogues who use song magic.
But pure rogues are still awesome.
+1
|
If your wizard is being a good player, he's going to take the skills that the rogue didn't grab. Or vice versa.
Besides spellcraft and arcane knowledge, which should be a big part of every wizard's skill list (especially spellcraft!), a wizard does have skill points left over. If the rogue is a 'face' or 'swindler' type, then the wizard should feel free to put a few points into stealth, perception, sense motive, and maybe even sleight of hand. Wizards can make themselves invisible and cast illusions to get really stealthy.
If your rogue is a stealthy type, then invisibility belongs on the rogue, not on the wizard. After all, why should the wizard waste spells turning himself into a third-rate high-level rogue when there's a first-rate high-level rogue just asking to be improved? In this case, the wizard probably ought to take the social skills, like bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate. Or stick to knowledge, if charisma's a dump stat. There are ten knowledges in the game, and I have yet to see a wizard who could put maximum ranks into each of them and yet still have skill points left over.
Of course, your wizard and rogue won't always get along. But the rogue has so much ground he can cover (as does the wizard) that they shouldn't need to step on each others toes... unless they both insist on traveling the same path at the same time.
Of course, this is possible. But if your players work together, it should be avoidable.
If your idea of a rogue only includes skills... then yes you can get a class skill bonus from one level of rogue.
But rogues are MUCH more then just the guy that looks for traps or disables locks... just like a cleric is much more then the healer.
Yes a cleric heals very well and a rogue does traps and locks very well. But other classes can also heal and other classes can also do locks and traps too. This makes it so a party does not 100% have to have a cleric and rogue in every party. This is a good thing.
Rogues get Sneak Attack, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Rogue Talents, Major Rogue Talents, and 8+INT MORE skill points every level. Virtually no other class gets any of these, and no class gets all of these, and that is why you keep playing a rogue past level one.
Add to that the iconic rogue skills are all really acquired at first level and scale as your character level (not Class level) improve, there is no point in going more than 1-2 levels into rogue and then getting out.
I can't think of a single rogue ability that scales with character level. Not trapfinding, not sneak attack, not rogue talents or evasion (unless you count reflex saves going up). Not even the Resiliency talent.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
here are some tips to playing a rogue
excersize the right side of your brain, the creative side. if you cannot think like Sherlock Holmes, you are going to have a hard time understanding the mindset of a rogue.
act extremely paranoid, make constant perception and sense motive checks, check every square for traps, check every door, every chest, and even every noble's underwear drawer. those underwear drawers typically serve to hold information about all sorts of dirty secrets. such as hidden diaries, ledgers, or even an illegal bible of some evil deity.
try to appear as innocent or nonthreatening as possible. the easiest way to accomplish this is to reliably pass yourself of as either a child or some kind of domestic servant. so short slender rogues are better than tall burly ones. you also want loose clothing with lots of pockets on the inside, but you don't want something that stands out. and if you are japanese, you should NEVER, i mean Never, wear black pajamas. these basically give away your position to anyone who has any familiarity with modern cinema whatsoever
utilize your knowledge of tropes, become genre saavy. by doing this, you can turn the Villain's Xanatos gambit back upon him.
here are some tips to playing a rogue
excersize the right side of your brain, the creative side. if you cannot think like Sherlock Holmes, you are going to have a hard time understanding the mindset of a rogue.
act extremely paranoid, make constant perception and sense motive checks, check every square for traps, check every door, every chest, and even every noble's underwear drawer. those underwear drawers typically serve to hold information about all sorts of dirty secrets. such as hidden diaries, ledgers, or even an illegal bible of some evil deity.
try to appear as innocent or nonthreatening as possible. the easiest way to accomplish this is to reliably pass yourself of as either a child or some kind of domestic servant. so short slender rogues are better than tall burly ones. you also want loose clothing with lots of pockets on the inside, but you don't want something that stands out. and if you are japanese, you should NEVER, i mean Never, wear black pajamas. these basically give away your position to anyone who has any familiarity with modern cinema whatsoever
utilize your knowledge of tropes, become genre saavy. by doing this, you can turn the Villain's Xanatos gambit back upon him.
Haha
+1
|
|
You know, I kind of have to agree with the OP. I think he's saying that mechanically there's not reason to take anything other than Rogue 1, rather than thematically. I had a friend who wanted to do a sniper as a rogue, and the ranged sneak rules really messed him up, so I told him just play a high int fighter, take some traits to get some skills as class, and have fun doing real damage.
It's not an issue of not playing the cool and iconic rogue, it's just that rogue class features aren't the best after first level. I could play the same style of character as a Fighter instead of a rogue and there'd be no thematic difference, especially if we're playing in a game where our classes aren't just highlighted over our head.
Honestly, I don't like rogues at all, I'm more a fan of their cooler younger brother, the bard. A bard can do anything a rogue can, with magic, nearly the same skills, and doesn't have to be played like a singing Elan-esqe fop. Same design in a far more enjoyable package to me, but YMMV.
So while I love the idea behind the rogue, I don't care for their mechanics. I could see doing a human fighter after one level of rogue and enjoying my sweet class skills, just taking a few traits and not diverging a level, or playing one of the more enjoyable "sub rogues", like bard or alchemist. You still have all the same RPing opportunities, but are a bit better equipped to handle the end game when skills are generally left at the wayside.
I have always been a big fan of the sneaky skill-monkey, and so far I think the pure rogue is still the champ in the sneaky skill-monkey department. I like the PF rogue more than the 3.5 rogue.
While the OP does have a point, the sheer number of skill points a rogue gets still keeps me taking rogue levels.
I do think the rogue suffers a bit at higher levels, but I don't generally play beyond level 12 so I don't worry that much about epic wizards making the rogue feel like a third wheel. By that level the game just makes my head spin anyway.
When I first bought the PF rulebook and was reading the rules, the class that I was most excited about was the rogue. I still love the rogue and probably always will.
While I won't go so far as to call rogues obsolete, they do get nifty tricks and are the undisputed masters of disabling devices (an incredibly handy skill even beyond traps). Furthermore I greatly enjoy playing a rogue for many of the reasons listed by other posters.
That said, I think rogues are the new ranger.
Before I get raged, hear me out.
In 3.0 (and to a lesser extent in 3.5) rangers were a dip class for people who wanted two weapon fighting. Rangers were still fun to play, but from an optimization standpoint they were rubbish.
Now in pathfinder the ranger is a real class, even for optimizers. However the rogue is a 1-3 level dip for anyone who wants to handle traps for the party, and as a bonus you get some sneak attack.
From an optimization standpoint there's little reason to go beyond rogue 1, after that you can go into any class with 6 + int skills and still cover most of what any given rogue does, while getting extra benefits. The d8 hd isn't even much of a penalty to joe the fighter who wants to disable traps.
So as much as I dig rogues, unfortunately theyre the new ranger, a truely sad day for scoundrels everywhere.
Rogues still steal stuff out of combat better than anybody else, especially with the Cutpurse archetype from the APG. Sadly, Paizo had to go and make in-combat stealing a combat maneuver (and thus, being STR based, a fighter thing). Still, few fighters care to out-thieve the rogue in combat rather than just killing stuff, so not much of an issue.
When I play rogue, I don't even bother fighting. I just steal stuff- anything that isn't nailed down. And some things that are- that's what those ranks in Profession: Carpenter are for...
...So as much as I dig rogues, unfortunately theyre the new ranger, a truely sad day for scoundrels everywhere.
Right on.
The scoundrel archetype is a very rewarding one - but it is better represented by a Rogue/Ranger, Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Barbarian than a pure Rogue.
|
|
Rogues still steal stuff out of combat better than anybody else, especially with the Cutpurse archetype from the APG. Sadly, Paizo had to go and make in-combat stealing a combat maneuver (and thus, being STR based, a fighter thing). Still, few fighters care to out-thieve the rogue in combat rather than just killing stuff, so not much of an issue.
When I play rogue, I don't even bother fighting. I just steal stuff- anything that isn't nailed down. And some things that are- that's what those ranks in Profession: Carpenter are for...
wasn't there a feat that allowed you to use dex for CMB?
i keep hearing rogues would lose out eventually. how is that so? going with the archetypes and talents there's a world full of fun (and hurt).
-scout and sniper rule big time (they're even compatible) as does poisoner or thug.
-bleeding attack used on the right type of foe (lacking opposing thumbs, healing magic, auto-heal abilities or friends who can provide any of those i.e. your good ol' monster) means certain death after your first sneak attack. but don't forget to do the shoe afterwards ;)
-minor & major magic can be ridiculously powerful as you can apply empower and quicken SLA to them. quickened/empowered acid splash/chill touch/shocking grasp with some sneak attack on top anybody?
-what about dastardly finish, crippling attack (nice with crits), dispelling attack?
it's sure nice to have a ton of skills with just one skill rank in them. but better yet to have a ton of skills with max ranks. i mean what's you're disable device/escape artist/whatnot of +10ish gonna help at lvl 15-20?
granted, the rogue doesn't lend itself to being played as straight-foward as a fighter. but then again, if you don't like thinking on your toes maybe 4e (rogue) would help. brain: off, attack: on --> damage done
i think playing a rogue requires some wits and out-of-the-box thinking in order to get the best out of it. my advice: don't rely too much on numbers and shape situations to your advantage
being prepared/in control makes you strong and if you're not, there's uncanny dodge :)
I think the OP's point was that the Rogues niche, being able to disable magical traps, is achieved at level 1. After that they are not doing anything unique. Everyone of their skills can still be taken without taking another level of Rogue. Pure rogues have damage.... if they have a flank....but even then not as much as any full BAB class.... and they might get murdered in response.
This is a powergamers perspective, but I wouldn't reccomend any of my table mates go full rogue. I would always reccomend a fighter/rogue mix, using Cornugon Smash.
*shrugs* Paizo must be aware of these issues with the amount of board chatter on it. One can only hope Ultimate Combat shows them some love, like the APG did the barbarian.
|
|
Thank you all for your opinions and advice (except the rude flamers)
After discussing my Rogue with several writer friends of mine we determined that my rogue has something the other Battle Turtle classes don't have:
CHARACTER
This is my first rogue in Pathfinder and I am trying to make him a scoundrel Thief type of guy. However the party is composed of mostly melee fighters, so I feel kind of useless when the Druid with her High WIS and 1 level of Rogue with 6HD of character level is out performing my 4th Level pure rogue (essentially with her high WIS and INT she has a 16 Perception and a 14 Disable Device) to my 11 in both.
When my main function is being trumped like that the Rogue seems pretty damn useless. The Melee fighters are doing my average backstab damage every time they swing their swords and I have to make stealth checks every time I move were the bard with invisibility doesn't have to make any.
So
I'm sticking with my Rogue for now based on all of your advice that his high skill points will eventually make him usefull and my writer friend's advice that my character possession more character then the min/maxed characters and so he adds more to the story.
Again Thank you all for your advice.
Thank you all for your opinions and advice (except the rude flamers)
I'm sticking with my Rogue for now based on all of your advice that his high skill points will eventually make him usefull and my writer friend's advice that my character possession more character then the min/maxed characters and so he adds more to the story.
Again Thank you all for your advice.
made a lvl 4 Rogue in HeroLab
I'm interested to see your build.Here's my quick one:
Male Elf Rogue 4
CN Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +10; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +9
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 35 (4d8+8)
Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +1
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +1, Uncanny Dodge; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Rapier +9 (1d6+3/18-20/x2)
Ranged Longbow, Comp. (Str +2) +7 (1d8+2/20/x3)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +2d6
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 20
Feats Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Initiative, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier
Traits Reactionary, Warrior of Old
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +6, Climb +8, Disable Device +12, Escape Artist +10, Fly +3, Perception +9, Ride +3, Sense Motive +7, Sleight of Hand +10, Stealth +10, Swim +1
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ Elven Magic, Trapfinding +2
Combat Gear +1 Chain Shirt, +1 Rapier, Arrows, Flight (40), Longbow, Comp. (Str +2); Other Gear Ring of Protection, +1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) You may make up to 5 attacks of apportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Sneak Attack +2d6 +2d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +2 +2 to find or disable traps.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Thank you all for your opinions and advice (except the rude flamers)
After discussing my Rogue with several writer friends of mine we determined that my rogue has something the other Battle Turtle classes don't have:
CHARACTER
This is my first rogue in Pathfinder and I am trying to make him a scoundrel Thief type of guy. However the party is composed of mostly melee fighters, so I feel kind of useless when the Druid with her High WIS and 1 level of Rogue with 6HD of character level is out performing my 4th Level pure rogue (essentially with her high WIS and INT she has a 16 Perception and a 14 Disable Device) to my 11 in both.
When my main function is being trumped like that the Rogue seems pretty damn useless. The Melee fighters are doing my average backstab damage every time they swing their swords and I have to make stealth checks every time I move were the bard with invisibility doesn't have to make any.So
I'm sticking with my Rogue for now based on all of your advice that his high skill points will eventually make him usefull and my writer friend's advice that my character possession more character then the min/maxed characters and so he adds more to the story.
Again Thank you all for your advice.
Really Cole? So we have a small disagreement regarding whether the rogue class is "worthless" based on last session. You get offended at my manner of discussion, and I was quick to apologize. It was never my intent to be a jerk or make you feel bad about your character. I even send you a personal email saying "Hey I hope your not mad, really didn't mean to offend you. I think your character is really good, and interesting, and I hope you keep playing him." So you seemingly ignore my email over the next couple days, which I blew off. And here I find you, complaining on the Paizo forums.
I guess I could be wrong, but this realllly seems like you're talking about me with this post, and it's pretty negative. The fact that I rolled pretty well on stats and used a fairly straightforward war cleric build doesn't mean than I am not trying to play an interesting character. The fact that your character does less damage than mine doesn't automatically imply your character is better, and I'm a little insulted that you think so.
You asked me before not to make judgements about your character since we've only played together twice, and I said "ok, that's fair." And here you are, lording over how much "more character" you've got than me. Bit of a double standard in my opinion. I'm sorry to bring this up here on this board but you've ignored my personal email and I felt compelled to respond, since you brought it up here and I'm involved in the matter.
Edit: PS: After review of this board, it seems like the majority of the posters feel similar to the way I did initially. That is to say, the rogue is a pretty good class with good options for a pure build. I honestly do understand why you have an issue with the class but it was only ever my intent to state my opinion that the class is good as it is, and your suggested fix of making disable device and trapfinding rogue only is not needed.
|
|
This is my first rogue in Pathfinder and I am trying to make him a scoundrel Thief type of guy. However the party is composed of mostly melee fighters, so I feel kind of useless when the Druid with her High WIS and 1 level of Rogue with 6HD of character level is out performing my 4th Level pure rogue (essentially with her high WIS and INT she has a 16 Perception and a 14 Disable Device) to my 11 in both.
When my main function is being trumped like that the Rogue seems pretty damn useless. The Melee fighters are doing my average backstab damage every time they swing their swords and I have to make stealth checks every time I move were the bard with invisibility doesn't have to make any.
You are complaining that a character with 150% of your levels is more efficient than yours?
a 2 level difference when you have 4 levers is very large. Sadly Pathfinder don't works so well with level differences, especially as you will never catch up those 9.000 or so XP you lack unless the GM let you do some solo adventure. Probably you are behind in gear, almost certainly at least 2 skill point behind in critical skills, 2 HD less and so on.Until you reduce that gap you will feel the difference, independently from the classes you or him have.
No alchemist can possibly make rogues obsolete, since alchemists are basically rogues that make potions, just like bards are rogues who use song magic.
But pure rogues are still awesome.
-1
I have been all through the books and the discussion forums about rogue skills and it seems that you can indeed take a single level of rogue and then apply your total HD to the acquired skills. This rules discrepancy makes leveling a Rogue a pointless waste of time. Since essentially it is the same as taking 1 level of wizard and gaining every spell at every level. The entire class is bought for a SINGLE level and the only thing left exclusively to the Rogue is a collection of little talents.
This essentially makes Rogues obsolete.
I don't think the skills make rogues obsolete. I think their combat ability makes them so. No one likes to play a class that must be babysat by other classes to be effective. In the next iteration of the rogue, Paizo should eliminate backstabbing or change it into a dirty fighting style with abilities like the Inquisitor's judgement.
Sneak attack is useless against smart players or monsters. The ultimate one trick pony easily defeated.
I ran a lvl 17 party this weekend with a rogue as one of the enemies. A weretiger rogue with pounce at that, so even better than a regular rogue.
Out of nine characters (5 PCs and 4 henchmen), the rogue had two options to attack. And he took one person down because they ignored him foolishly, then was obliterated by a caster.
Took the rogue 5 rounds to set up to attack the only target he could effectively do so against without dying. His options were:
1. Raging Barbarian: Attacking him ineffective due to heavy fortification armor. Would die in one round to barbarian.
2. Fighter: Attacking him ineffective due to heavy fortification. Would die in one round to fighter.
3. Sorcerer: Mirror Images up.
4. Wizard: Flying and invisible.
5. Oracle: In elemental form and immune to sneak attack.
6. Zen Archer Monk: Open to attack.
7. Bard: Open to attack.
8. Eldritch Knight: Open to attack.
9. Cleric: Heavy Fortification armor.
Three targets possible to attack.
The rogue used pounce. Got five attacks. Did 166 points of damage (Not even close to what the melees do for damage without sneak attack with four attacks) to the Zen Archer Monk dropping her because she had already taken 30 points of negative energy channeling. The Oracle of Life was quickly able to heal her back up.
Then the sorcerer unloaded on her with a Contagious Flame and a quickened scorching ray with bard song on him. The rogue dropped.
All that time setting up sneak attack and using stealth to set up an attack that was good for one round. She wouldn't even have had a flanker after Hunter's Prey was over. And was quickly annihilated by the caster afterwards.
At high lvl the rogues don't have saves, hit points, or combat ability on par with other high level characters. I find it strange that Paizo can't see this with playtesting. What do they do? Playtest at lvl 5 to 10 or something?
Rogue's fighting style should be competely redesigned into a dirty fighting style effective whether or not the rogue is flanking or attacking from stealth. It should incorporate defense as well as stealth. Rogue talents was the first step towards better rogue.
They need to either:
1. Completely get rid of resistance to sneak attack. Then the rogue would at least be on par with the melee.
2. Redesign the rogue fighting style to not require flanking or loss of dex.
Skills are helpful for scouting. But at the end of the day you still have to fight the BBEG and his minions. A rogue isn't up to the challenge most of the time. They are the ultimate one trick pony and little more than a speed bump to any other class.
His comparison to a wizard makes me think the OP has misunderstood the Skills mechanics of PF as akin to that of SW Saga edition. For those who are not familiar with the system, in Star Wars Saga edition, a character had no control over how many ranks of skill points she invest into each skill- rather, she would choose a number of skills to be trained in when she gains the first level and that was it. Afterwards she can make the skill checks as 1/2 character level + key ability modifier + miscellaneous + 5 if trained and could still make untrained skills checks albeit +5 bonus.
So if it was the case with PF, as the OP seems to imply, then taking 1 level of Rogue and multiclassing off to some other class would certainly give 8 + Int number of skills, all fully trained and making the main schtick of the Rogue class (the skill-monkey) moot- hence the "wizard who gains all the spells" analogy.
Therefore, due to the inherent flaw in the OP's interpretation of the rules, we could say that for the sake of this particular topic, that rogues are not obsolete.
If I may voice my opinions regarding how "replaceable" rogues are, I would say they are about as replaceable as a party fighter with, say, a Gish or a melee-focused Druid; depends highly on the existing party dynamics and the DM's style.
To the OP, and his team mate the cleric that wrote such an angry post.
A coupple things u might need to take into account next time u play. First of all you are comparing a level 4 rogue with a level 5 druid/1 rogue, and then complaining that you get outperformed. That is simply not a valid argument. The way pathfinder is designed it works very very poorly with level difference inside the party, as you will never ever catch up with those missing xp, sure the gap will be reduced to one level in time, but still. I would suggest you talk to your gm about having you all at the same level, or my guess is that you will feel obselete with any character untill everyone is about level 20. Consider a level 6 rogue to the 5 druid 1 rogue, and you will have gained a rogue talent, more skill points, +1d6 sneak attack for more damage, better trap sense, AND 2 better BAB and thats the huge part. ie you get more damage when you hit, and a 10% increased chance to hit.
So moving on to next problem, you have misunderstood trapfinding, or atleast partly.
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception
skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device
skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device
to disarm magic traps.
As has been stated numerous times by the developers, any ability with a desciption like this, means that it gets better not with your HD, but with your rogue level. This means that the druid will not get +3 to perception and DD, but only +1 from this ability becouse its only rogue levels that count. She will however be able to use DD on magic traps.
So if we compare a level 6 rogue with the 5 druid 1 rogue, and take into account that you put +2 ranks in DD and perception, then the rogue will have +13 to both (using the info you gave earlier). Now the druid that actually follows the rules will then have +14 to perception and +12 DD, which is almost the same as you, BUT not better. Then take into account that Trapfinding scales with your rogue levels, probably even more than the druids wisdom increases, so you will surpass him a little on these skills. But the main point he will not be better at it than you.
tl:dr
1: dont play a party with different levels if not everyone agrees that its ok you are the sidekick.
2: explain the real rules for trapfinding to your druid friend, and he wont be better at perception and disable device
The GM has PCs of level 4 and level 6 in the same group? No wonder the level 4 player is disgruntled.
That GM needs a slap.
Well the level 4 rogue might have a template or is a monstrous PC of some sort. I'd like the OP to clarify this apparant level discrepancies between the characters.
Also: please disregard my previous post on this thread because obviously, I haven't read the full thread before I posted that thing.
The GM has PCs of level 4 and level 6 in the same group? No wonder the level 4 player is disgruntled.
That GM needs a slap.
Well the level 4 rogue might have a template or is a monstrous PC of some sort. I'd like the OP to clarify this apparant level discrepancies between the characters.
Also: please disregard my previous post on this thread because obviously, I haven't read the full thread before I posted that thing.
To defend the gm, he still approaches xp 3.5 style. That is to say, the rogue is quickly catching up. For example, a one or two page adventure log write up just netted him 5k xp. I think it's fair to say that's an over-reward for the effort (as much as I liked the write up), so I'm pretty sure he's intent on getting the rogue up to par. Our dm is actually quite good, in my opinion. I can't speak for Cole of course.
Also, it was mentioned, so I have to say I'm sorry if I seemed angry. It's because I was, a little. I felt like I'd tried pretty hard to keep the peace on this matter and, well, seeing those comments was a bit of a surprise.
I suspect the talk of HD interacting with skills in the OP stems from a misinterpretation of the rules.
|
|
Trapfinding is definitely a rogue's strong suit. But it is not a rogue's only function.
Does your group have a 'face'? Rogues often work well with people, much better than typical fighters or druids.
Also, see if you can get the bard to cast invisibility on you. Your stealth is probably more than his most of the time, and if you were invisible, you'd be completely undetectable.
To defend the gm, he still approaches xp 3.5 style. That is to say, the rogue is quickly catching up. For example, a one or two page adventure log write up just netted him 5k xp. I think it's fair to say that's an over-reward for the effort (as much as I liked the write up), so I'm pretty sure he's intent on getting the rogue up to par. Our dm is actually quite good, in my opinion. I can't speak for Cole of course.Also, it was mentioned, so I have to say I'm sorry if I seemed angry. It's because I was, a little. I felt like I'd tried pretty hard to keep the peace on this matter and, well, seeing those comments was a bit of a surprise.
Well you did seem angry, but i do hope there is no bad blood between you and the rogue now becouse of your apology.
Now moving on. Your GM might be very good, i really cant say becouse im not in the group. But if he is not that used to pathfinder, then maybe you and the other party members should talk to him about letting the rogue catch up magicly in levels, or i fear that the player will just keep being disgruntled.
Personaly i have never understood why party's need to consist of players of different levels, much like the apparent attitude i have fased a lot of times myself, "that levels is something you earn". And if you dont show up no levels. I think the mistake of having a party, especially low level party consist of players with different HDs is exsactly what the OP describes, you feel like a sidekick becouse everyone is better than you at everything. That being said ofcourse it can be fun, but only if every one agrees to play the game that way. In the end its all about having fun, and if your rogue dosnt like that playstyle of using different levels in the party, then why keep having him levels behind? Your GM needs to learn that while pathfinder is close to 3.5, they are two different games, and what works in one might not work in the other.
TL:DR
Talk to the other players and GM why having different levels dosnt work for you, and then come to a sollution. I have no doubt that is the root cause of the problem the OP is having.
Also explain to the druid that trapfinding isnt based on his total levels, but his rogue levels. That will clear up some confusion
After talking with our GM, I was out of line bringing the (minor) dispute on a public forum board. I wont be responding here anymore in the hopes that we can resolve what is in reality a fairly minor thing. To answer the last poster I don't have bad blood at this point, and in fact I feel fairly silly about getting inflamed. Sorry to all the readers about the drama.
|
|
Thank you all for your opinions and advice (except the rude flamers)
After discussing my Rogue with several writer friends of mine we determined that my rogue has something the other Battle Turtle classes don't have:
CHARACTER
This is my first rogue in Pathfinder and I am trying to make him a scoundrel Thief type of guy. However the party is composed of mostly melee fighters, so I feel kind of useless when the Druid with her High WIS and 1 level of Rogue with 6HD of character level is out performing my 4th Level pure rogue (essentially with her high WIS and INT she has a 16 Perception and a 14 Disable Device) to my 11 in both.
When my main function is being trumped like that the Rogue seems pretty damn useless. The Melee fighters are doing my average backstab damage every time they swing their swords and I have to make stealth checks every time I move were the bard with invisibility doesn't have to make any.So
I'm sticking with my Rogue for now based on all of your advice that his high skill points will eventually make him usefull and my writer friend's advice that my character possession more character then the min/maxed characters and so he adds more to the story.
Again Thank you all for your advice.
Really Cole? So we have a small disagreement regarding whether the rogue class is "worthless" based on last session. You get offended at my manner of discussion, and I was quick to apologize. It was never my intent to be a jerk or make you feel bad about your character. I even send you a personal email saying "Hey I hope your not mad, really didn't mean to offend you. I think your character is really good, and interesting, and I hope you keep playing him." So you seemingly ignore my email over the next couple days, which I blew off. And here I find you, complaining on the Paizo forums.
I guess I could be wrong, but this realllly seems like you're talking about me with this post, and it's pretty negative. The fact that I rolled pretty well on stats and...
LOL Actually I'm not complaining about you I'm discussing a class change in rogues that makes them a "dip" class (mind you I have been playing since 1st Edition so I remember the good old days of the Thief with the percentile charts). Your fine. Try not to jump to conclusions man and keep personal feelings off of public message boards. Relax its just a game.
|
|
And Again Everyone: thanks for the input.
This is my 1st Pathfinder Rogue and I need all the help I can get. My group is pretty rules savvy and I have always been an off the cuff arbitrary gamer, more interested in the story then the rules.
So All these bits of information are really really helpful!
You may also want to take a closer look at the Rogue Talents.
I know of a rogue that has taken Minor Magics (cast Mending 3 times a day) and Major Magics (cast Vanish 3 times a day).
This rogue can break into a place, and then repair the break part.
They also use the mending to fix clothing and such after a fight..What, no Officer, it couldn't have been me in that fight, see, no signs of violence on me (they also have the trait that gives them a cantrip a day, Presdigitation, that they use for clean up duties).
In fights, the rogue has used Vanish (which is a max 5 round invisibility spell) to good effect. Upon further recollection, the rogue has used it well out of combat too.
Now in pathfinder the ranger is a real class, even for optimizers. However the rogue is a 1-3 level dip for anyone who wants to handle traps for the party, and as a bonus you get some sneak attack.
From an optimization standpoint there's little reason to go beyond rogue 1, after that you can go into any class with 6 + int skills and still cover most of what any given rogue does, while getting extra benefits. The d8 hd isn't even much of a penalty to joe the fighter who wants to disable traps.
So as much as I dig rogues, unfortunately theyre the new ranger, a truely sad day for scoundrels everywhere.
I would contend that you would not even bother with a 1 dip in rogue. Urban Ranger gives you trap finding ability just like rogue. Rangers are just better in nearly every way with their full bab, bonus quality feats from 2nd level, limited spells from mid level, full choice of martial weapons and medium armour.
The real deal breaker is the lack of full BAB for rogues because so many of the really powerful feats have a BAB prerequisite such as improved two weapon fighting, improved critical, and bleeding critical (which is a thousand times better than the weak rogue talent called bleeding attack). This means that the ranger is going to get those sweet build concepts working 2 to 4 levels earlier than a rogue.
If you want a really powerful sneak / scout / trapfinder character, choose 5 urban ranger / 4 shadow dancer. From an optimisation point of view, it leaves a rogue for dead. I do agree with the earlier sentiments where someone mentioned that rogues are thematically sound rather than mathematically sound.
|
|
for starters, I love rogues. They are "one of the best classes"
However 90+% of what I want from a rogue is accomplished, and then some extras, by the vivisectionist alchemist and some ranks in UMD or selective spell selection.
IMHO rogues with a 12+cha can work really nicely. A human rogue with and 8 int and using favored class bonus for HP still gets those 8 skill points per level. That is nice. Max bluff/diplomacy and. UMD and a rogue can be really really useful in a pinch.
And Again Everyone: thanks for the input.
This is my 1st Pathfinder Rogue and I need all the help I can get. My group is pretty rules savvy and I have always been an off the cuff arbitrary gamer, more interested in the story then the rules.
So All these bits of information are really really helpful!
I hope your DM gives you opportunities to shine and your campaign isn't standard by the book modules with lots of combat. You're torturing yourself playing a rogue if you manage to get past about lvl 13 in a standard campaign. Very impotent class at high level, should be ok for you if you stick to 5 to 13 or so though. Not great, but can be useful.