@Raider
Here's another ability I ran into you may want to use/alter? It's fromt the Bard "Magician" archetype in the APG.
Spell Suppression (Su): A 8th level, a magician can use performance to counter the spells of his foes. Once the bard begins using this performance, he tracks the number of rounds it has been in use. While performing, as an immediate action, he can attempt to counter any spell that he can identify using Spellcraft, so long as that spell’s level is equal or less than the total number of rounds he has been performing spell suppression. The attempt to counter the spell is made as if using dispel magic, using the bard’s level as the caster level. If successful, the bardic performance immediately ends. This ability requires audible components. This performance replaces dirge of doom.
Two confirmed playtesters, one possible, plus myself (I don't normally DMPC, but in this case I think it's best if I do.)
So we'll do two classes at a time for now, alongside one or two regular characters, each weekend. We'll be doing two sessions of each at 6th level, since that's the point I've found the regular classes to be most balanced at.
Elghinn, what I need to facilitate this is to have the entire list of classes we've -finished- and are putting up for playtesting on hand and linked to each individual finished version. If it's in the PDF, then clarify that. The list from the last page is nice to look over and see what we've got under way, but I know some are going under changes so.
Expect the first results Monday once I've had time to review logs. I'll have the proper Aegis Lancer 'Mark I' ready then too.
If anyone would like to join in and help speed up playtesting, feel free to join the irc network and channel. (( Espernet, #Vaire. Instructions in the other thread. )) I can do another session mid-week if we ever get enough peoples for it.
Two confirmed playtesters, one possible, plus myself (I don't normally DMPC, but in this case I think it's best if I do.)
So we'll do two classes at a time for now, alongside one or two regular characters, each weekend. We'll be doing two sessions of each at 6th level, since that's the point I've found the regular classes to be most balanced at.
Elghinn, what I need to facilitate this is to have the entire list of classes we've -finished- and are putting up for playtesting on hand and linked to each individual finished version. If it's in the PDF, then clarify that. The list from the last page is nice to look over and see what we've got under way, but I know some are going under changes so.
Expect the first results Monday once I've had time to review logs. I'll have the proper Aegis Lancer 'Mark I' ready then too.
If anyone would like to join in and help speed up playtesting, feel free to join the irc network and channel. (( Espernet, #Vaire. Instructions in the other thread. )) I can do another session mid-week if we ever get enough peoples for it.
I can email you the full "finished" list to your gmail account.
Logging on to IRC right now.
First person to post the name of the archetype they want me to work on next gets my attention. ;p
OK. Here you go. Goodnight!
Songfilches combine the magic and performance expertise of a bard with the stealth and skill capacity of a rogue. He can cast arcane spells, perform charm-related magic, and execute great feats and exploits of legerdemain.
Primary Class: Bard.
Secondary Class: Rogue.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Songfilches add the rogue’s Disable Device skill to his class skills in addition to the normal bard class skills. The songfilch gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Songfilches Songfilches are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Spellcasting: A songfilch casts arcane spells which are drawn from the bard spell list presented in Chapter 10 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. He can cast bard spells as normal, but cannot exceed his base daily spell allotment as shown on Table: Songfilch of this entry. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. In addition, the songfilch adds the following spells to his spell list and may select any of these spells as a spell known, in addition to those listed in the bard’s spell list: 0– detect poison; 1st–obscuring mist, shadow weapon**, 2nd–forbid action**, grace*; 3rd–nondetection, silence; 4th–deeper darkness, twilight knife*; 5th–poison; 6th–forbid action (greater)**. (*Advanced Player’s Guide, **Ultimate Magic)
Bardic Knowledge (Ex): This is exactly like the bard’s ability of the same name.
Bardic Performance: At 1st level, a songfilch gains bardic performance which functions as the bard ability of the same name, except that the songfilch has access to a small selection of new performances, in addition to a few of those typically used by the bard.
Diversion (Su): At 1st level, a songfilch can use his bardic performance to deceive the senses of her observers and vanish from view. Each round of diversion, he makes a Perform (act, dance, oratory, or sing) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the songfilch must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the songfilch’s level + the songfilch’s Charisma modifier) or come under the effects of ghost sounds (as per the spell). If this save fails, the target’s attention is drawn away from the song filch who can immediately attempt a Stealth check to hide himself from their view. To the observers, the songfilch seems to have vanished into thin air. If this check succeeds, the target assumes that the noise was something innocent and disregards it and continues to observe the songfilch. Diversion only works if all observers have been distracted by the noise. Diversion relies on audible and somatic components to function. This ability replaces distraction.
Vanish (Sp): At 1st level, a songfilch can use his performance to cause himself or a single creature to vanish from sight. The creature to be vanished must be within 30 feet, and able to see and hear the songfilch. The songfilch must also be able to see the creature affected. This performance functions like invisibility, except that the effect only last 1 round for every level the songfilch has attained beyond 1st, to a maximum of 5 rounds at 5th level. Like invisibility, the effect immediately ends if the subject attacks any creature.
If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can immediately use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. Vanish is an illusion (glamer) ability. Vanish relies on visual and somatic components in order to function. This ability replaces fascinate.
Invisibility (Sp): A songfilch of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make himself or a single creature invisible (as per the invisibility spell), and requires a standard action to activate. This ability uses the songfilch’s level as the caster level.
If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can immediately use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. This ability affects only a single creature. Invisibility is an illusion (glamer) ability. Invisibility relies on visual components in order to function. This ability replaces suggestion.
Silent Refrain (Su): At 8th level, a songfilch can use his performance (act) to silence a selected target (including himself). The songfilch can affect a number of single targets up to the songfilch’s Charisma modifier. For every three levels a songfilch has attained beyond 6th, he can target one additional creature with this ability. This is not an area effect. Each creature to be silenced must be within 60 feet of the songfilch, and be able to see him. The songfilch must also be able to see the creatures affected.
Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the songfilch’s level + the songfilch’s Charisma modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the songfilch cannot attempt to silence that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature is silenced as the spell, for as long as the songfilch continues to maintain it, plus an additional number of rounds afterwards equal to his Charisma modifier. While silenced, a creature is under the same effects as a silence spell (including effects on spellcasting), but with only a 5-foot radius emanation centered on the creature.
If the songfilch chooses to target himself, he is placed under the effects of a silence spell with a caster level equal to his songfilch level. In addition, the songfilch can continue to cast his spells as if he had the Still Spell metamagic feat, but only for as long as the performance remains in effect. Silent refrain is an illusion (glamer) ability. Silent refrain relies on somatic components in order to function. This ability replaces dirge of doom.
Manifold Melody (Su): A songfilch of 9th level or higher can use his performance to create illusory doubles to conceal his true location. The songfilch can create a number of duplicate images at 9th level equal to 3 + one additional image every two levels thereafter. Each of these images remains in the songfilch’s space and move with him, mimicking his movements, sounds, and actions exactly. These duplicate images remain for as long as the songfilch maintains his performance. This ability otherwise functions as the mirror image spell. Manifold melody is an illusion (figment) ability. Manifold melody relies on audible and visual components in order to function. This ability replaces inspire greatness.
Mislead (Sp): A songfilch of 12th level or higher can use his performance to become invisible (as greater invisibility) while an illusory double of him (as major image) appears. The songfilch is then free to go elsewhere while his double moves away. The double appears within range but thereafter moves as the songfilch directs (which requires concentration beginning on the first round after the casting). The songfilch can make the figment appear superimposed perfectly over his own body so that observers don't notice an image appearing and him turning invisible. The songfilch and the figment can then move in different directions. The double moves at the songfilch’s speed and can talk and gesture as if it were real, but it cannot attack or cast spells, though it can pretend to do so. The illusory double lasts as long as the songfilch concentrated upon it, plus a number of additional rounds equal to his Charisma modifier. After the songfilch ceases concentration, the illusory double continues to carry out the same activity until the duration expires. The greater invisibility lasts for 1 round per level, regardless of concentration. Mislead is an illusion (figment, glamer) ability. Mislead relies on visual components in order to function. This ability replaces soothing performance.
Revealing Strain (Ex): At 14th level, a songfilch can use performance to compel creatures to reveal themselves when hiding. All enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the songfilch’s level + the songfilch’s Cha modifier). If they fail, they must cease using Stealth, and dismiss, suppress, or dispel if necessary magical effects that grant invisibility or any other form of concealment from the songfilch. As long as they can hear the performance, affected creatures may not attack or flee until they have eliminated every such effect, though they are freed from this compulsion immediately if attacked. Creatures in the area must make this save each round the songfilch continues his performance. This ability is language-dependent and requires audible components. This performance replaces frightening tune.
Mass Invisibility (Sp): This ability functions just like invisibility, but allows a bard of 18th level or higher to simultaneously make a number of creatures within 180 feet of each other invisible. The effect moves with the group and is broken when anyone in the group attacks. Individuals in the group cannot see each other. The spell is broken for any individual who moves more than 180 feet from the nearest member of the group. If only two individuals are affected, the one moving away from the other one loses its invisibility. If both are moving away from each other, they both become visible when the distance between them exceeds 180 feet. This ability requires a standard action to activate. If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can immediately use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. This ability affects a number of creatures equal to 1/2 the songfilch’s level + his Charisma modifier. Mass invisibility is an illusion (glamer) ability. Mass invisibility relies on visual components in order to function. This ability replaces mass suggestion.
Cantrips: This is exactly like the bard’s ability of the same name.
Diminished Casting: The songfilch knows one fewer spell of each level (including cantrips) than a bard, as shown on the Songfilch Spell Known table below. He otherwise casts spells as a bard of equal level.
Piercing Crescendo (Su): At 1st level, a songfilch can unleash a powerful keening note which transforms into a razor-sharp crystalline shard that both deals an amount of piercing damage equal to 1d4 plus an amount of sonic damage equal to 1/2 the songfilch’s level and dazes a single target within 30 feet for 1 round. This crystalline shard ignores any hardness. This note is inaudible to all but his target, and requires the songfilch to make a ranged attack roll to hit the target.
In addition, a 1st level songfilch deals +1d6 points of damage against a target that he flanks or that is denied its Dex bonus to AC against him. This damage increases by +1d6 every four levels 1st, to a maximum of +5d6 at17th level. Should the songfilch score a critical hit with his piercing crescendo, this extra damage is not multiplied. This ability functions as a ranged sneak attack, but only if the target is within 30 feet. A piercing crescendo’s effective range increases to 40 feet at 8th level, and to 50 feet at 15th level. This ability replaces counter song and inspire courage.
Spellsong (Ex): At 2nd level, a songfilch gains Spellsong as a bonus feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
Talents: At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, a songfilch gains either a rogue talent for which he qualifies or one of the following rogue abilities: evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. A songfilch must select evasion before he can select uncanny dodge, and uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge. At 14th level, the songfilch can choose advanced rogue talents whenever he could choose a rogue talent. In the case of the improved evasion talent, the songfilch must have evasion to select it. A songfilch treats his level as his rogue level for the purpose of qualifying for talents with level-dependent requirements and calculating the effects of any talent or rogue ability he's chosen. This ability replaces versatile performance.
Deadly Crescendo (Su): Upon reaching 20th level, a songfilch becomes extremely deadly with his piercing crescendo. Each time the songfilch deals ranged sneak attack damage, the shard explodes in a burst of crystalline shrapnel. The target receives a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the songfilch’s level + the songfilch’s Charisma modifier). If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the target takes an amount of bleeding damage equal to the songfilch’s Charisma modifier, and is staggered for 2d4 rounds. If a creature’s saving throw fails, the shrapnel strikes the target’s heart and it dies. Once a creature has been the target of a deadly crescendo, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that songfilch’s deadly crescendo for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability. This ability replaces deadly performance.
Rogue Talents: The following rogue talents complement the songfilch multiclass archetype: charmer*, coax information*, fast stealth, finesse rogue, guileful polygot*, honeyed words*, quick disguise*, trap spotter. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
Advanced Talents: The following advanced rogue talents complement the songfilch archetype: defensive roll, dispelling attack, fast tumble*, improved evasion, master of disguise*, skill mastery, thoughtful reexamining*. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
Table: Songfilch
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, cantrips, 1 — — — — —
diminished casting, diversion, piercing crescendo +1d6, vanish
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Spellsong, talents, well-versed 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Inspire competence +2 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Lore master 1/day, piercing crescendo +2d6 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Invisibility, talents 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Inspire competence +3 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Silent refrain 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Manifold melody, piercing crescendo +3d6 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Jack-of-all trades, talents 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Inspire competence +4, lore master 2/day 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Mislead 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Piercing crescendo +4d6 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Revealing strain, talents, advanced talents 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Inspire competence +5, inspire heroics 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Lore master 3/day, piercing crescendo +5d6 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Mass invisibility, talents 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Inspire competence +6 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Deadly crescendo 5 5 5 5 5 5
Songfilch Spells Known
Spells Known
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 2 0 — — — — —
2nd 3 1 — — — — —
3rd 4 2 — — — — —
4th 4 2 0 — — — —
5th 4 2 1 — — — —
6th 4 2 2 — — — —
7th 4 3 2 0 — — —
8th 4 3 2 1 — — —
9th 4 3 2 2 — — —
10th 4 3 3 2 0 — —
11th 4 4 3 2 1 — —
12th 4 4 3 2 2 — —
13th 4 4 3 3 2 0 —
14th 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
15th 4 4 4 3 2 2 —
16th 4 4 4 3 3 2 0
17th 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th 4 4 4 4 3 2 2
19th 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
20th 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
Random observation on the new PDF:
The Cassisian has his first line in the "medium" power incorrect. He does not grow Large. He grows larger, to Medium Size.
This is great! A neat execution of the concept. I have downloaded the pdf from the link in the OP. Is this the most recent? Have you completed APG classes yet? (Cracks whip)
The art is fabulous and the layout most pleasing. Keep up the good work Elghinn et al. You are really showing the value of player/dm community and of messageboards.
Umm... Also, I can remember playing a Monk Paladin in NWN that rocked - have you all got an mc archetype? I think I remember it from early on in the piece, apologies if I'm doubling up here.
Idea for Oracle/Witch - Seersworn - link the oracle curse/disability to the witch patron, and link the witch familiar to oracle mysteries/revelations- the familiar can be an avatar of the patron. May have to align mystery with patron, or at least have a list of thematically possible combinations and a list of mutually exclusive. As far as the fluff goes anyway - as for mechanics? Well, I leave that to you guys.
As for the witch getting so much love? It's a no brainer - she has a certain glamour about her.
Oops! There's the monk/paladin. In the pdf already. Phew.
Elghinn - I tried to find the preview of MC Archetypes 2, but the link is broken. What is the latest?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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OK. Here you go. Goodnight!
** spoiler omitted **...
Vanish (Sp): At 1st level, a songfilch can use his performance to cause himself or a single creature to vanish from sight. The creature to be vanished must be within 30 feet, and able to see and hear the songfilch. The songfilch must also be able to see the creature affected. This performance functions like invisibility, except that the effect only last 1 round for every level the songfilch has attained beyond 1st, to a maximum of 5 rounds at 5th level. Like invisibility, the effect immediately ends if the subject attacks any creature.
This would suggest that at 5th level, it lasts 4 rounds. Just a quick fix needed.
Otherwise, really well done!
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Stuff
Here's my update to the Battle Adept. Things I changed:
-Removed shield proficiency-Added Holy Shield, which lets the battle adept use his/her holy symbol as a shield
-Added Holy Judgement, sort of like a paladin's Smite Evil.
-Added improved versions of both of those above, and a capstone letting the battle adept deal damage to all foes within 30 feet.
Battle adepts combine the divinely granted spells and powers of an adept with the battle skills and military might of a fighter. She can cast divine spells and channel energy, while wielding martial weapons with great prowess and skill. She shirks at the use of a shield, choosing instead to rely on her deity to protect her from an enemy’s strikes.
Primary Class: Cleric.
Secondary Class: Fighter.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Battle adepts may select three fighter skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cleric class skills. The battle adept gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Battle adepts are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor, but not with shields of any type.
Diminished Casting: A battle adept gains one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number of spells at a certain level to 0, she may cast spells of that level only if he receives bonus spells of that level from having a high ability score. The battle adept otherwise prepares and casts spells as a cleric with a caster level equal to his battle adept level.
Domain: A battle adept may choose one domain from among those belonging to his deity and otherwise follows all rules pertaining to her related domain powers and spells.
Fighter Feats: A battle adept gains access to fighter-only feats and counts 1/2 his battle adept level to qualify for fighter-only feats with level requirements.
Weapon Symbol: At 1st level, a battle adept can choose to add her holy symbol to a weapon of her choice, and can brandish that holy symbol while weilding that weapon. If that weapon is lost or destroyed, he may make a craft (weapons) check (DC15) to add his holy symbol to another weapon, even if he has no ranks in craft (weapons). If the check fails, the holy symbol is ruined and must be replaced, but the weapon is unharmed.
Holy Shield (Su): At 2nd level, a battle adept may expend a daily use of channel energy to instead brandish her holy symbol in her off-hand, creating a holy shield. Her holy symbol provides a Shield bonus to AC equal to ¼ his battle adept level (rounded down). If she makes any attacks with her off-hand while this ability is active, it immediately ends. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier.
Holy Judgement (Su): Beginning at 4th level, the Battle Adept may expend one daily use of her Channel Energy ability to gain a bonus equal to her Battle Adept level on damage against a single creature. If this creature’s alignment is at least two steps away (on either axis) from her own, this bonus damage is doubled. The bonus damage is not further multiplied on a critical hit. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom modifier. (For example, a Lawful Good battle adept would get double her level in damage against any enemies with Chaotic or Evil alignments. A Neutral battle adept does not double her bonus damage no matter the alignment of his foe.)
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a battle adept gains the fighter’s weapon training ability and further training every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th). The divine blade can select from any of the weapon groups presented in the fighter class entry. This ability replaces channel energy 3d6, 5d6, 7d6, and 9d6.
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a battle adept gains the fighter’s armor training ability and further training every six levels thereafter (12th and 18th). Any armor training bonuses are applied to all armor types in which the battle adept is proficient.
Improved Holy Shield (Su): At 8th level, the battle adept’s Holy Shield grants her a Shield bonus to AC equal to ½ her battle adept level.
Greater Holy Judgement (Su): At 14th level, when using the Holy Judgement ability, the battle adept’s base attack bonus is treated as being equal to her battle adept level (as a fighter of his level) for all attacks against her Holy Judgement target.
Supreme Judgement (Su): At 20th level, the battle adept may expend all remaining daily uses of channel energy to deal damage to all foes within 30 feet of himself. The damage is equal to 1d10 + his Charisma modifier for each use of channel energy expended. If the foe’s alignment is at least two steps away from the battle adept’s alignment (as with the Holy judgement ability), the damage is doubled. Each target may make a Will save (DC 10 + battle adept level + Cha modifier) to receive half damage.
Special: The battle adept qualifies for the Extra Channel feat.
Table: Battle Adept
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Aura, bonus feat, channel energy 1d6, 2 0+1 — — — — — — — —
diminished casting, domain, fighter feats,
weapon symbol, orisons
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Holy shield 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Channel energy 2d6 3 1+1 0+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Holy judgement 3 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Weapon training 1 3 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Armor training 1 3 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Channel energy 3d6 3 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Improved holy shield 3 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Weapon training 2 3 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 3 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Channel energy 4d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Armor training 2 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Weapon training 3 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Greater holy judgement 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Channel energy 5d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Weapon training 4 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Armor training 3 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Channel energy 6d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Supreme judgement 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1
What do you guys think? Is giving a Cleric-based character a capstone too powerful?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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StuffHere's my update to the Battle Adept. Things I changed:
-Removed shield proficiency
-Added Holy Shield, which lets the battle adept use his/her holy symbol as a shield
-Added Holy Judgement, sort of like a paladin's Smite Evil.
-Added improved versions of both of those above, and a capstone letting the battle adept deal damage to all foes within 30 feet.** spoiler omitted **...
So just to point out WHY I decided to remove shield proficiency and add Holy Shield instead, I pictures a Cleric who carries around two bit 'ol swords, and can use TWF really well (thanks to his Fighter feats, like weapon spec.) but when he is up against an enemy who is getting a lot of attacks on him, he can call out to his god and use one of those weapons as a shield instead (since he has his holy symbol attached to his off-hand weapon).
We could add feats for this class where he could add his full strength bonus to his off-hand when attacking after using it as a shield, or give bonuses to turning or rebuking undead when he strikes them with his holy symbol weapon.
Random observation on the new PDF:
The Cassisian has his first line in the "medium" power incorrect. He does not grow Large. He grows larger, to Medium Size.
Thanks for the catch Purplefixer. Yeah, that Large should be Medium.
Oops! There's the monk/paladin. In the pdf already. Phew.
Elghinn - I tried to find the preview of MC Archetypes 2, but the link is broken. What is the latest?
THIS is the latest version of finished Base, and the few Core that have been updated and ifxed to be in line with the Base ones. We've evolved over the last 2 months, so we're updating the Original ones.
If that link doesn't work, try THIS. Go to MC Archetypes folder, it's the Core and Base Playtest pdf.
Spread the word. We'd like playtest input on these.
Looks like RaiderRPG is running a playtest, so I've put together a regular power-cleaving (power attack, cleave, cleaving finish, great cleave) Paladin as a control/tank/off-healer.
The Paladin has some of the BEST aggro-management spells! Having finally gone through his expanded spell-list, we really seriously need a challenging Paladin/Cavalier who excels at using those Paladin spells as possible spell-like abilities to supplement the challenge feature and actually make people RESPOND to that challenge.
We should also be considering trimming things down if they get into revision. Keep in mind the value of some of the other archetypes that people are going to want to play with, and make sure that at least SOME of ours are compatible with some of the others, the way I did with the Hidden Lakes Adept and the Ki Mystic and Fist of the Four Winds. You can stack all three of those together if you like, intentionally. I think instead of the two monk Archetypes you could add either Hungry Ghost or Enduring Mountain? I'd have to double check but I believe Hungry Ghost was possible, and Enduring Mountain might have been...
Thug-Trickblade and Scout-Trickblade and the like should be options.
I agree with Purplefixer re: keeping some Paizo archetypes available. That was my goal with things like the sword dancer (who can still become bladebound), for instance.
WRT "vanish" and its wording... why not base it off Vanish? Which is a 1round/CL invisibility, max 5 rounds. Would be much simpler.
(Oh, and hi again, and bye again!)
WRT "vanish" and its wording... why not base it off Vanish? Which is a 1round/CL invisibility, max 5 rounds. Would be much simpler.
(Oh, and hi again, and bye again!)
It is...:P
@cartmanbeck
Don't redo the Divne Agent, I'm on that one. It's my second favorite multiclass combo after Wiz/Rog.
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WRT "vanish" and its wording... why not base it off Vanish? Which is a 1round/CL invisibility, max 5 rounds. Would be much simpler.
(Oh, and hi again, and bye again!)
It is...:P
@cartmanbeck
Don't redo the Divne Agent, I'm on that one. It's my second favorite multiclass combo after Wiz/Rog.
It's all yours. I'm not a fan of the inquisitor (or Cavalier for that matter) so I've stayed away from it.
StuffHere's my update to the Battle Adept. Things I changed:
-Removed shield proficiency
-Added Holy Shield, which lets the battle adept use his/her holy symbol as a shield
-Added Holy Judgement, sort of like a paladin's Smite Evil.
-Added improved versions of both of those above, and a capstone letting the battle adept deal damage to all foes within 30 feet.** spoiler omitted **...
What do you guys think? Is giving a Cleric-based character a capstone too powerful?
No, as long as it's not too powerful, and unique to the archetype.
As to the updates, I like them. I do have a few suggestions:
1) Holy Shield: I like this idea, gaining a bonus to AC via divine power. I would change the wording to the following, since you said you wanted to allow TWF and still allow the shield benefit.
Holy Shield (Su): At 2nd level, a battle adept may expend one use of his channel energy to create a shield of divine energy to emanate from his holy symbol. The battle adept must brandish his holy symbol in his off-hand, whether by itself or as part of an off-hand weapon. This holy shield provides him with a +1 divine bonus to AC and stacks with all others. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 2nd, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. Holy shield can be maintained for a number of rounds equal to the battle adept’s Charisma modifier.
I think +1 at 2nd, +1 per 4 levels thereafter is more than sufficient (as 1/4 level bonus). I changed the Improved Holy Shield, because a +10 bonus to AC of ANY type to me is way over the top, even if it is for a short time.[/1]
[i]2)I just did some rewording of Holy Judgement. I like this ability.
Holy Judgement (Su): Starting at 4th level, the battle adept may expend one use of his channel energy to gain a damage bonus against a single creature equal to his battle adept level, for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier. This damage is not multiplied on a confirmed critical. If this creature’s alignment is at least two steps from his own on the good/evil or lawful/chaotic axis, this bonus damage is doubled. For example, a lawful good battle adept would deal double his level in damage against any target with a chaotic or evil alignment. A neutral battle adept does not double his bonus damage, no matter the alignment of his target.
3) I have a suggestion to repace the original Improved Holy Shield, 'cause as I said, gaining a +10 bonus to AC is HUGE, anytime.
Allied Holy Shield (Su): At 8th level, the battle adept’s can transfer some or all of his holy shield bonus to allies within 10 feet. As a free action, the battle adept chooses how to allocate his shield’s bonus at the start of his turn, which lasts until the effect ends. He may designate no less that a +1 shield bonus to a single ally, and no more than his maximum bonus to a single ally. For example, a 10th level battle adept can transfer his entire +3 sacred bonus to a single ally within 10 feet, or transfers a +1 bonus to two allies within 10 feet, and retain a single +1 bonus for himself.
I think this would allow the Battle Adept to helpprotect his allies in necessary situations. Plus, the bonus will stack with anything.
4) I just reworded Greater Holy Judgment.
Greater Holy Judgement (Su): At 14th level, a battle adept uses his battle adept level in place of his base attack bonus for any attacks rolls made against the target of his holy judgment. He also uses his battle adept level as his base attack bonus for the purpose of determining the number of attacks he can make in a full attack action with his holy judgment.
5) For your capstone I made a slight rewording.
Supreme Judgement (Su): At 20th level, the battle adept may expend all of his remaining uses of channel energy to deal damage to all enemy creatures within 30 feet of him. The damage is equal to 1d10 for each use of channel energy expended, plus his Charisma modifier. If the creature’s alignment is at least two steps from his own (as with holy judgment) the damage dice are doubled, though his Charisma modifier is not. Each target may make a Will save (DC 10 + the battle adept’s level + the battle adept’s Charisma modifier) for half damage.
This rewording doesn't allow the Cha modifier to be doubled, which I belive is in align with any other official class, archetype, etc., but allows the damage dice to be doubled. I like how this allows for scaing according to how many uses he has left.
Also, I changed it to "he" because its a male pic I'll be using for the final version.
Thoughts?
It's all yours. I'm not a fan of the inquisitor (or Cavalier for that matter) so I've stayed away from it.WRT "vanish" and its wording... why not base it off Vanish? Which is a 1round/CL invisibility, max 5 rounds. Would be much simpler.
(Oh, and hi again, and bye again!)
It is...:P
@cartmanbeck
Don't redo the Divne Agent, I'm on that one. It's my second favorite multiclass combo after Wiz/Rog.
Wrong "Divine Agent". That was the Inquisitor/? combo Divine Agent was Christopher Delvo's creation. The original in the first PDF is a Clr/Rog. My 3rd favorite character was one (a CG drow at that). I'm doing it next (starting tonight) :D (rubs hands together)
Question- What's the -drawback- of the Eldritch Warlock? Full witch casting, ability to select between Hexes and bloodline powers, and no delays in usual abilities? :\
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StuffHere's my update to the Battle Adept. Things I changed:
-Removed shield proficiency
-Added Holy Shield, which lets the battle adept use his/her holy symbol as a shield
-Added Holy Judgement, sort of like a paladin's Smite Evil.
-Added improved versions of both of those above, and a capstone letting the battle adept deal damage to all foes within 30 feet.** spoiler omitted **...
What do you guys think? Is giving a Cleric-based character a capstone too powerful?
No, as long as it's not too powerful, and unique to the archetype.
As to the updates, I like them. I do have a few suggestions:
1) Holy Shield: I like this idea, gaining a bonus to AC via divine power. I would change the wording to the following, since you said you wanted to allow TWF and still allow the shield benefit.
Holy Shield (Su): At 2nd level, a battle adept may expend one use of his channel energy to create a shield of divine energy to emanate from his holy symbol. The battle adept must brandish his holy symbol in his off-hand, whether by itself or as part of an off-hand weapon. This holy shield provides him with a +1 divine bonus to AC and stacks with all others. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 2nd, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. Holy shield can be maintained for a number of rounds equal to the battle adept’s Charisma modifier.
I think +1 at 2nd, +1 per 4 levels thereafter is more than sufficient (as 1/4 level bonus). I changed the Improved Holy Shield, because a +10 bonus to AC of ANY type to me is way over the top, even if it is for a short time.[/1]
[i]2)I just did some rewording of Holy Judgement. I like this ability.
Holy Judgement (Su): Starting at 4th level, the battle adept may expend one use of his channel energy to gain a damage bonus against a single creature equal to his battle adept level, for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier. This damage is not multiplied[/i]...
I didn't mean for the battle adept to be able to get his AC bonus AND get all of his TWF attacks in the same round. That's why I had the caveat built in that if he attacks with his off-hand, the effect ends. If he wants a shield bonus, he has to attack with just his primary hand.
I also think we should make sure that it's a Shield bonus to AC so that you can't brandish a shield with your holy symbol on it and have it stack with the Shield bonus itself. Also, can we start him off with a +2 bonus, only because a normal light shield gives a +2 bonus and you can get one of those starting at 1st level.
It should be more like this:
Holy Shield (Su): At 2nd level, a battle adept may expend one daily use of his channel energy to create a shield of divine energy to emanate from his holy symbol. The battle adept must brandish his holy symbol in his off-hand, whether by itself or as part of an off-hand weapon. This holy shield provides him with a +2 shield bonus to AC. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 2nd, to a maximum of +6 at 18th level. If the battle adept makes a melee attack with his off-hand, the bonus to AC immediately ends. Holy shield can be maintained for a number of rounds equal to the battle adept’s Charisma modifier.
Allied Holy Shield (Su): At 8th level, the battle adept’s can transfer some or all of his holy shield bonus to allies within 10 feet. As a free action, the battle adept chooses how to allocate his shield’s bonus at the start of his turn, which lasts until the effect ends. He may designate no less than a +1 shield bonus to a single ally, and no more than his maximum bonus to a single ally. For example, a 10th level battle adept can transfer his entire +4 shield bonus to a single ally within 10 feet, or transfer a +1 bonus to two allies within 10 feet, and retain a +2 bonus for himself. As with the Holy shield ability, if the battle adept makes a melee attack with his off-hand, this effect immediately ends.
All your other edits are excellent. I'm glad you like it!
I was trying to come up with something that these abilities could replace from the original cleric abilities, but I think having less dice for channel energy and losing one of each spell level, AND losing standard shield proficiency more than makes up for these few abilities and the fighter stuff. Do you agree? Should we slow the progression of the Armor and Weapon training abilities?
Vanish
The 10th level Songfilch can easily cast Vanish 20+ times a day!? Doesn't that seem off?
Why not remove the duration and make it continuous play? The Songfilch is Vanished as long as he continues performing?
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Invisible
Likewise.
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Silent Refrain
Cool, but OP when you come to the use of Auto-Silenced spells. Why not require an additional cost in bardic music daily rounds? One per spell at least? (As equalling the spell level adjustment of Silent Spell)
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Piercing Crescendo:
Replaces Countersong and Inspire Courage from the performance list, but is NOT a performance? It takes a non-weapon normal ranged attack roll, rather than a ranged touch attack roll (VERY difficult at higher levels)? ONLY the piercing crescendo deals sneak attack damage, or does the archetype GET sneak attack damage? Sneak Attack is always Sneak Attack, from any source. Using a ranged attack while flanking provokes attacks of opportunity and is generally a bad idea.
I was going to say "Doesn't Deadly Crescendo sound a little too powerful...?" Then I realized it's a capstone, and no, it's just right! ;p
Address those invisibility issues and tell me what's going on with the Piercing Crescendo here, and I think we're about golden!
Question- What's the -drawback- of the Eldritch Warlock? Full witch casting, ability to select between Hexes and bloodline powers, and no delays in usual abilities? :\
Yeah, lookig at that one, the plague bringer, witch doctor, and white witch, I think they need to be reworked too. I thought we had done them, but maybe not.
I'm sending you a updated version I just did. It's similar, but balac=nces everything. Check your gmail.
White Witch is one of those getting tested tomorrow, actually, so I can letcha know what needs fixing. ;3
All your other edits are excellent. I'm glad you like it!
I was trying to come up with something that these abilities could replace from the original cleric abilities, but I think having less dice for channel energy and losing one of each spell level, AND losing standard shield proficiency more than makes up for these few abilities and the fighter stuff. Do you agree? Should we slow the progression of the Armor and Weapon training abilities?
1) I liked you counter suggestions too.
2) I think losing channel energy dice, diminidhed spellcasting, losing a domain, should balance out. I worked out the following:
Weapon symbol repaces the first domain power (of the domain lost of course)
Holy shield, holy judgment, improved holy shield, greater holy judgment, and supreme judgment all replace domain spells.
Weapon Training replaces the channel energy dice.
Armor training replaces the second domain power.
Fighter feat access in place of the lost spells for diminished casting.
So, I think it balances out pretty good.
White Witch is one of those getting tested tomorrow, actually, so I can letcha know what needs fixing. ;3
Excellent.
Vanish, etc.
Invisibility Issue: (vanish, invisibility, mislead, mass invisibility)
The reason I don't have it "as long as he maintains the performance" is that he can't perform and do what a rogue might normally be able to do while performing, and stay invisible. That's why I simply made it as the spell, with duration as the spell, not as long as it’s maintained.
Two options for a fix:
Add the following to the above performances: “The songfilch can use this performance a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.”
OR
Add the following to all of them:
Vanish: The songfilch must expend 1 additional round of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Invisibility: The songfilch must expend 2 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Mislead: The songfilch must expend 3 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Mass Invisibility: The songfilch must expend 4 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Silent Refrain
Cool, but OP when you come to the use of Auto-Silenced spells. Why not require an additional cost in bardic music daily rounds? One per spell at least? (As equalling the spell level adjustment of Silent Spell)
Hows this as a fix?
…If the songfilch chooses himself as the target, he is placed under the effects of a silence spell with a caster level equal to his songfilch level. In addition, the songfilch can continue to cast his spells as if he had the Still Spell metamagic feat (even though a bard cannot normally enhance his spells in this manner), but only for as long as the performance remains in effect. This Still Spell effect expends 1 additional round of the songfilch’s performance for each spell he casts. Silent refrain is an illusion (glamer) ability. Silent refrain relies on visual components in order to function. This ability replaces dirge of doom.
Piercing Crescendo:
Replaces Countersong and Inspire Courage from the performance list, but is NOT a performance? It takes a non-weapon normal ranged attack roll, rather than a ranged touch attack roll (VERY difficult at higher levels)? ONLY the piercing crescendo deals sneak attack damage, or does the archetype GET sneak attack damage? Sneak Attack is always Sneak Attack, from any source. Using a ranged attack while flanking provokes attacks of opportunity and is generally a bad idea.
I did have it that ONLY piercing crescendo caused sneak attack damage.
How’s this instead.
Place these under Performance:
Piercing Crescendo (Su): At 1st level, a songfilch can use his performance to unleash a powerful keening note which transforms into a razor-sharp crystalline shard that both deals an amount of piercing damage equal to 1d4 plus an amount of sonic damage equal to 1/2 the songfilch’s level, and dazes a single target within 30 feet for 1 round. This crystalline shard ignores any hardness. This note is inaudible to all but his target, and requires the songfilch to make a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This performance requires a standard action to perform. A piercing crescendo’s effective range increases to 40 feet at 8th level, and to 50 feet at 15th level.
In addition, piercing crescendo can be used as a ranged sneak attack, but only if the target is within 30 feet (see Sneak Attack). The songfilch must expend 1 additional round of his bardic performance to apply sneak attack damage to his piercing crescendo. Piercing crescendo is an evocation (sonic) ability. Piercing crescendo relies on audible components in order to function. This ability replaces countersong.
Deadly Crescendo (Su): Upon reaching 20th level, a songfilch becomes extremely deadly with his piercing crescendo. Each time the songfilch deals ranged sneak attack damage, the shard explodes in a burst of crystalline shrapnel. The target receives a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the songfilch’s level + the songfilch’s Charisma modifier). If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the target takes an amount of bleeding damage equal to the songfilch’s Charisma modifier, and is staggered for 2d4 rounds. If a creature’s saving throw fails, the shrapnel strikes the target’s heart and it dies. Once a creature has been the target of a deadly crescendo, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that songfilch’s deadly crescendo for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability. This ability replaces deadly performance.
This is a stand alone ability:
Sneak Attack (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, but the songfilch can apply his sneak attack damage to his piercing crescendo anytime the target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, or when the songfilch flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5d6 at17th level. This ability replaces inspire courage.
Not sure if this was passed over bcoz it was in the middle of my post or if there is already an archetype. Witch/oracle "Seersworn". Witch primary oracle secondary. Seems the oracles curse fits nicely with a witch and patrons could provide mysteries and revelations. Originally thought the witch famliar could be an avatar of mysterious patron, but maybe it could be jettisoned all together. Anybody like it?
Looks good, Elghinn! I'd play it.
Except you meant Silent Spell, not Still Spell, in the Silent Refrain fix? ;p
Aaaah. After ACTUALLY READING the original PDF GUIDELINES (haven't dl'd the mc II yet), I thought I should clarify. Here's a first stab at the Mystic Seersworn. (I know the Secondary class should have it's theme name first only, and seer is more oracle-y than witch, but I like Mystic Seersworn better than just Seersworn or Mystic Seer - which is Oracle-Oracle anyway. "Sworn" refers to oaths or pacts made to witch patrons.)
The Seersworn Mystic (just can't make my mind up :) ) weaves an uneasy tapestry - the warp of spirit and the weft of arcana. She may increasingly choose the revelation of spirit over the esoteric incunabula of witchcraft, but whatever her choice, knowledge is the true path to power.
Primary class: Witch
Secondary class: Oracle
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d6
Save Bonus: ? I didn't fully understand the guidelines here. I'm guessing +2 will? (Both witch and oracle seem to suggest this...)
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The Mystic Seersworn may select three Oracle skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal Witch class skills. The Mystic Seersworn gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4+ Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Mystic Seersworn is proficient with all simple weapons. The Mystic Seersworn is not profcient with any type of armor or shield. ( Nor do I think the archetype warrants any upgrade from oracle armor prof, thematically or power-wise. Thoughts?)
Spells: Looked at divine magus and now my head hurts! Need a bit (a lot?) of help with this bit. Obviously I'm looking at a combination of divine oracle and arcane witch, but unsure how to go about it.
Patrons: Would love to marry the Patron spells idea with the deities idea of mysteries and revelations. A Patron/deities combination list? Some new lists?
Oracle's curse: Want to keep this as a theme ability even though it isn't primary - swap for cantrips? They seem unequal, and would rather keep both.
Hexes/Mystery spells/revelations: Hexes are the primary class ability and I guess they can be swapped out for revelations and mystery spells - the problem I'm finding is that hexes come at every second level after second, as do mystery spells - while revelations come every four, but at odd levels, not even. Ow!
Witch's Familiar: There's so much going on here already, I have toyed with idea of nixing the familiar, or alternatively representing the familiar as a Deity mystery/revelation battery. Or swap familiar altogether for access to revelations. The living spellbook familiar/adding spells to familiar concept seems important though. Thoughts?
I can see that occasionally the mc archetypes have a/some unique power/s, thematically linked to the two classes but not wholly linked to any actual class power. In line with this I wanted to create a seer/sagelike power utilizing spell-like abilities. Trances that could be used both in and out of combat to assist divination or sure hits, planar/patron aid trances for buffs etc.
Ok. As you can see there's lots of work still to do, but hopefully with some pointers this can take shape. So I am now steering more towards my original concept name Seersworn.
P.S. My two cents. Mirror blade rocks completely as a concept! Reminds me both of the old 1E "Tween" from Fiend Folio, and also a platform combat arcade game from the late eighties whose name i can't remember if i ever knew. You could summon up to two mirrors of yourself, who would ghost-trail a few frames after you slashing again at whatever you hit.
P.P.S. I also have some rough work on a Bard/Oracle - Temple Dancer, similar to the devadasi in the Hindu tradition, but without the post-colonial stain of temple-prostitute and with more of a martial bent. I'd like to see how the development goes on the Seersworn so I don't make silmilar mistakes on the Temple Dancer. I can see that Bard/Cleric might be a better martial fit, but Oracle seems to fit the flavour.
Looks good, Elghinn! I'd play it.
Except you meant Silent Spell, not Still Spell, in the Silent Refrain fix? ;p
Um...yeah. :P
But, what about the other fix? Additional performance round cost, or limited times per day = Cha mod?
Or you could just make the invis effect expend your bardic performance rounds while you maintain the effect... without making noise... it's possible to "spend bardic performance" without it necessarily being audible. Perform(dance) is one example; or you could just say that since songfilches are special the invisibility itself is a performance type. The sky's the limit. 1 round of performance per round of invis is pretty bad, though, until you can start it as a swift action at 13th level (assuming performance progresses as normal for a bard, which might not be the case.... I haven't read the full class write up *embarrassed*).
Compare to, say, ninja vanishing trick.
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Aaaah. After ACTUALLY READING the original PDF GUIDELINES (haven't dl'd the mc II yet), I thought I should clarify. Here's a first stab at the Mystic Seersworn. (I know the Secondary class should have it's theme name first only, and seer is more oracle-y than witch, but I like Mystic Seersworn better than just Seersworn or Mystic Seer - which is Oracle-Oracle anyway. "Sworn" refers to oaths or pacts made to witch patrons.)
The Seersworn Mystic (just can't make my mind up :) ) weaves an uneasy tapestry - the warp of spirit and the weft of arcana. She may increasingly choose the revelation of spirit over the esoteric incunabula of witchcraft, but whatever her choice, knowledge is the true path to power.
Primary class: Witch
Secondary class: Oracle
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d6
Save Bonus: ? I didn't fully understand the guidelines here. I'm guessing +2 will? (Both witch and oracle seem to suggest this...)
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The Mystic Seersworn may select three Oracle skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal Witch class skills. The Mystic Seersworn gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4+ Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Mystic Seersworn is proficient with all simple weapons. The Mystic Seersworn is not profcient with any type of armor or shield. ( Nor do I think the archetype warrants any upgrade from oracle armor prof, thematically or power-wise. Thoughts?)Spells: Looked at divine magus and now my head hurts! Need a bit (a lot?) of help with this bit. Obviously I'm looking at a combination of divine oracle and arcane witch, but unsure how to go about it.
Patrons: Would love to marry the Patron spells idea with the deities idea of mysteries and revelations. A Patron/deities combination list? Some new lists?
Oracle's curse: Want to keep this as a theme ability even though it isn't primary - swap for cantrips? They seem unequal, and would rather keep both.
Hexes/Mystery spells/revelations: Hexes are the primary class ability and I guess they...
Here's what I would suggest:
-Save bonus would be nothing, since they have the same saves (high will).
-You're correct about the armor, no reason to give them any.
-Don't add revelations in addition, just say that any time she could get a Hex, she could instead choose a revelation. This won't hurt anything as far as getting too many revelations, because an oracle can always choose the Extra Revelation feat anyway.
-As far as the Mystery spells, either have them be usable once per day as a spell-like ability, or just add them to her witch spell list and give her a bonus witch spell slot for each one. Don't let her cast a mix of divine and arcane, it just gets too complex.
1st Level: Oracle's Curse, Mystery, Patron familiar, Cantrips, Hex
2nd Level: Mystery Spell
3rd Level: Hex
4th Level: Mystery Spell
5th Level: Hex
6th Level: Mystery Spell
Etc....
Now just add your thematic abilities, replacing a Hex for each one, and you're good to go!
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...Aaaah. After ACTUALLY READING the original PDF GUIDELINES (haven't dl'd the mc II yet), I thought I should clarify. Here's a first stab at the Mystic Seersworn. (I know the Secondary class should have it's theme name first only, and seer is more oracle-y than witch, but I like Mystic Seersworn better than just Seersworn or Mystic Seer - which is Oracle-Oracle anyway. "Sworn" refers to oaths or pacts made to witch patrons.)
The Seersworn Mystic (just can't make my mind up :) ) weaves an uneasy tapestry - the warp of spirit and the weft of arcana. She may increasingly choose the revelation of spirit over the esoteric incunabula of witchcraft, but whatever her choice, knowledge is the true path to power.
Primary class: Witch
Secondary class: Oracle
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d6
Save Bonus: ? I didn't fully understand the guidelines here. I'm guessing +2 will? (Both witch and oracle seem to suggest this...)
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The Mystic Seersworn may select three Oracle skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal Witch class skills. The Mystic Seersworn gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4+ Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Mystic Seersworn is proficient with all simple weapons. The Mystic Seersworn is not profcient with any type of armor or shield. ( Nor do I think the archetype warrants any upgrade from oracle armor prof, thematically or power-wise. Thoughts?)Spells: Looked at divine magus and now my head hurts! Need a bit (a lot?) of help with this bit. Obviously I'm looking at a combination of divine oracle and arcane witch, but unsure how to go about it.
Patrons: Would love to marry the Patron spells idea with the deities idea of mysteries and revelations. A Patron/deities combination list? Some new lists?
Oracle's curse: Want to keep this as a theme ability even though it isn't primary - swap for cantrips? They seem unequal, and would rather keep both.
Hexes/Mystery spells/revelations: Hexes are the primary class
Forgot to explain Patron familiar: You could have the familiar be a channel through which the gods "speak" to the Mystic Seersworn, giving her unique abilities (your thematic ones) and granting the mystery spells and extra spell slot. Along with normal familiar abilities, you could give it the ability to speak a language, but have it be a really obscure ancient language that only the Oracle can understand unless she teaches that language to one of the party members (and they spend a Linguistics rank to learn it). You could also let the familiar gain a new language that it can speak every few levels or something. So basically the gods give the familiar an intelligence not normally found in familiars (like Int 8 or so) and you have a second personality to play with when roleplaying!
P.P.S. I also have some rough work on a Bard/Oracle - Temple Dancer, similar to the devadasi in the Hindu tradition, but without the post-colonial stain of temple-prostitute and with more of a martial bent. I'd like to see how the development goes on the Seersworn so I don't make silmilar mistakes on the Temple Dancer. I can see that Bard/Cleric might be a better martial fit, but Oracle seems to fit the flavour.
We already got a Bard/Oracle in the Shroudsinger; maybe try the bard/cleric, just so we avoid overlap?
(Oh, by the way, Elghinn- can't remember answering this earlier. Let's do the 15th level revelations by Wis mod/times a day? Seems approp, to me, and doesn't add too much mad. Even a 12 + approp item boost gives a good number of uses at that level.)
Also, playtest starts in a few minutes and no sign of Purple. But we'll be going on and getting Stealth Mage and White Witch tested out.
P.P.S. I also have some rough work on a Bard/Oracle - Temple Dancer, similar to the devadasi in the Hindu tradition, but without the post-colonial stain of temple-prostitute and with more of a martial bent. I'd like to see how the development goes on the Seersworn so I don't make silmilar mistakes on the Temple Dancer. I can see that Bard/Cleric might be a better martial fit, but Oracle seems to fit the flavour.We already got a Bard/Oracle in the Shroudsinger; maybe try the bard/cleric, just so we avoid overlap?
(Oh, by the way, Elghinn- can't remember answering this earlier. Let's do the 15th level revelations by Wis mod/times a day? Seems approp, to me, and doesn't add too much mad. Even a 12 + approp item boost gives a good number of uses at that level.)
Also, playtest starts in a few minutes and no sign of Purple. But we'll be going on and getting Stealth Mage and White Witch tested out.
+1
@OCEANSHIELDWOLF
Here's what I'd work off of, as per cartmanbeck's suggestion. If you have unique abilities, post them, and sewe can see about swapping around when other abilites are gained.
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Oracle.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Seersworns add Diplomacy (Cha) and Sense Motive (Wis) from the oracle skill list to her normal witch class skills. The seersworn gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 2 + Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Seersworns are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a seersworn’s gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Spellcasting: A seerworn casts spells as a witch and draws her spells from the witch spell list. Her caster level is equal to her seersworn level. The seersworn gains bonus spells for a high Intelligence score.
Cantrips: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except that she chooses a hex as shown on Table: Seersworn.
Mystery: This is exactly like the oracle ability of the same name, except that she prepares her mystery spells in the mystery spell slot provided, just as a cleric prepares her domain spells in her domain spell slots. The seersworn gains her mystery spells one level before that of the oracle, to coincide with their mystery spell slots.
Oracle’s Curse (Ex): This is exactly like the oracle’s ability of the same name.
Patron Spells: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Revelations: This is exactly like the oracle ability of the same name, except the seersworn chooses a revelation at 1st level, and again at 6th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability replaces hex at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.
Witch’s Familiar: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Major Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Grand Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except the seersworn selects a grand hex at 20th level.
Table: Seersworn
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Cantrips, hex, mystery, oracle’s curse, 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
patron spells, revelation, witch’s familiar
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Hex 4 2+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 4 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Hex 4 3+1 2+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Revelation 4 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 4 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Hex 4 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Hex, major hex 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Revelation 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Revelation 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Hex, grand hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1
Or you could just make the invis effect expend your bardic performance rounds while you maintain the effect... without making noise... it's possible to "spend bardic performance" without it necessarily being audible. Perform(dance) is one example; or you could just say that since songfilches are special the invisibility itself is a performance type. The sky's the limit. 1 round of performance per round of invis is pretty bad, though, until you can start it as a swift action at 13th level (assuming performance progresses as normal for a bard, which might not be the case.... I haven't read the full class write up *embarrassed*).
Compare to, say, ninja vanishing trick.
Yes it functions just like Bardic Performance. So, would you go with "expend 1 round per round the performance continues"
OR
a flat cost in extra rounds each time you use the performance like so?
Vanish: The songfilch must expend 1 additional round of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Invisibility: The songfilch must expend 2 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Mislead: The songfilch must expend 3 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Mass Invisibility: The songfilch must expend 4 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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@OCEANSHIELDWOLF
Here's what I'd work off of, as per cartmanbeck's suggestion. If you have unique abilities, post them, and sewe can see about swapping around when other abilites are gained.
** spoiler omitted **...
Hmm the only think I mislike about this is the Mystery spells coming a level early. It makes this archetype better than the actual oracle, even though oracle is the secondary class. I would say keep the mystery spells at 2nd and every two levels after.
Or you could just make the invis effect expend your bardic performance rounds while you maintain the effect... without making noise... it's possible to "spend bardic performance" without it necessarily being audible. Perform(dance) is one example; or you could just say that since songfilches are special the invisibility itself is a performance type. The sky's the limit. 1 round of performance per round of invis is pretty bad, though, until you can start it as a swift action at 13th level (assuming performance progresses as normal for a bard, which might not be the case.... I haven't read the full class write up *embarrassed*).
Compare to, say, ninja vanishing trick.
Yes it functions just like Bardic Performance. So, would you go with "expend 1 round per round the performance continues"
OR
a flat cost in extra rounds each time you use the performance like so?
Vanish: The songfilch must expend 1 additional round of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Invisibility: The songfilch must expend 2 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Mislead: The songfilch must expend 3 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Mass Invisibility: The songfilch must expend 4 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance.
Not sure I have a great immediate suggestion.. neither of those options sounds great... maybe base it off Soothing Performance, where he has to play for a certain number of rounds before the effect kicks in? 1 full round for vanish (which would begin at the beginning of his next turn), 2 rounds for invisibility (which would begin at the beginning of the turn after his next), etc.?
Obviously the playing works the same as normal bardic performance.. when I say "full round" I mean he has to maintain his performance for that time, not spend a full-round action. So in terms of how turns work...
VANISH
Turn 1. Standard action to begin performance. Move action and swift action remain open.
Turn 2. Vanish begins. Bardic performance ends. Standard, move, and swift actions remain open.
INVISIBILITY
Turn 1. Standard action to begin performance. Move action and swift action remain open.
Turn 2. Free action to maintain performance. Standard, move, and swift actions remain open.
Turn 3. Invisibility begins. Bardic performance ends. Standard, move, and swift actions remain open.
In terms of action economy, this is no worse than "I spend rounds, then become invis" because it's just 1 standard action each time. In terms of efficacy in combat, it's less stupid strong (you can't just flicker out by singing a tune). And in terms of balance—it's weaker, because someone who knows bardic performance could ostensibly silence you or otherwise prevent you from completing the performance once they see you're performing.
Thoughts?
Songfilch Stuff...
You seem to have the pulse of the bard better than I, Flak. How does this work within the whole bard scheme? Bold is my changes.
Vanish (Sp): At 1st level, a songfilch can use his performance to cause himself or a single creature to vanish from sight. The creature to be vanished must be within 30 feet, and able to see and hear the songfilch. The songfilch must also be able to see the creature affected. This performance functions like invisibility (as the spell), except the effect only lasts for 1 round per caster level (maximum of 5 rounds). Like invisibility, the effect immediately ends if the subject attacks any creature. Using this performance uses up 1 round of the songfilch’s bardic performance. If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. Vanish is an illusion (glamer) ability. Vanish relies on visual components in order to function. This ability replaces fascinate.
Invisibility (Sp): A songfilch of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make himself or a single creature invisible (as per the invisibility spell), and requires a standard action to activate. This ability uses the songfilch’s level as the caster level. This ability affects only a single creature. Using this performance uses up 1 round of the songfilch’s bardic performance. If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can expend 1 additional round of his bardic performance to use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. Invisibility is an illusion (glamer) ability. Invisibility relies on visual components in order to function. This ability replaces suggestion.
Mislead (Sp): A songfilch of 12th level or higher can use his performance to become invisible (as greater invisibility) while an illusory double of him (as major image) appears. The songfilch is then free to go elsewhere while his double moves away. The double appears within range but thereafter moves as the songfilch directs (which requires concentration beginning on the first round after the casting). The songfilch can make the figment appear superimposed perfectly over his own body so that observers don't notice an image appearing and him turning invisible. The songfilch and the figment can then move in different directions. The double moves at the songfilch’s speed and can talk and gesture as if it were real, but it cannot attack or cast spells, though it can pretend to do so. The illusory double lasts as long as the songfilch concentrated upon it, plus a number of additional rounds equal to his Charisma modifier. After the songfilch ceases concentration, the illusory double continues to carry out the same activity until the duration expires. The greater invisibility lasts for 1 round per level, regardless of concentration. Using this performance uses up 3 rounds of the songfilch’s bardic performance. If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can expend 2 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. Mislead is an illusion (figment, glamer) ability. Mislead relies on visual components in order to function. This ability replaces soothing performance.
Mass Invisibility (Sp): This ability functions just like invisibility, but allows a songfilch of 18th level or higher to simultaneously make a number of creatures within 180 feet of each other invisible. The effect moves with the group and is broken when anyone in the group attacks. Individuals in the group cannot see each other. The spell is broken for any individual who moves more than 180 feet from the nearest member of the group. If only two individuals are affected, the one moving away from the other one loses its invisibility. If both are moving away from each other, they both become visible when the distance between them exceeds 180 feet. This ability requires a standard action to activate. This ability affects a number of creatures equal to 1/2 the songfilch’s level + his Charisma modifier. Using this performance uses up 4 rounds of the songfilch’s bardic performance. Mass invisibility is an illusion (glamer) ability. Mass invisibility relies on visual components in order to function. This ability replaces mass suggestion.
Hmm the only think I mislike about this is the Mystery spells coming a level early. It makes this archetype better than the actual oracle, even though oracle is the secondary class. I would say keep the mystery spells at 2nd and every two levels after.@OCEANSHIELDWOLF
Here's what I'd work off of, as per cartmanbeck's suggestion. If you have unique abilities, post them, and sewe can see about swapping around when other abilites are gained.
** spoiler omitted **...
Then we need to remove the first "mystery spell slot" listed for each spell level, since it does nothing for us until we actually get the mystery spells one spell later (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc.).
Like so:
Table: Seersworn
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Cantrips, hex, mystery, oracle’s curse, 3 1 — — — — — — — —
patron spells, revelation, witch’s familiar
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Hex 4 2+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 4 2+1 1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Hex 4 3+1 2+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Revelation 4 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 4 4+1 3+1 2+1 1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Hex 4 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Hex, major hex 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Revelation 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Revelation 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Hex, grand hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1
Looks really wierd. I would then suggest we simply have mystery spells added to her spell list like parton spells are, and gaining them at the normal levels the oracle does; 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc.
EDIT: I just realized I have the wrong BAB listed here, it should only be 1/2 BAB, not 3/4.
So, here's what the Seersworn should look like, with the proper BAB and change ot Mystery spells, and barring any added unique abilities from Oceanshieldwolf:
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Oracle.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Seersworns add Diplomacy (Cha) and Sense Motive (Wis) from the oracle skill list to her normal witch class skills. The seersworn gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 2 + Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Seersworns are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a seersworn’s gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Spellcasting: A seerworn casts spells as a witch and draws her spells from the witch spell list. Her caster level is equal to her seersworn level. The seersworn gains bonus spells for a high Intelligence score.
Cantrips: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except that she chooses a hex as shown on Table: Seersworn.
Mystery: This is exactly like the oracle ability of the same name, except that she adds her mystery spells to her spell list at the listed levels, just as she does her patron spells.
Oracle’s Curse (Ex): This is exactly like the oracle’s ability of the same name.
Patron Spells: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Revelations: This is exactly like the oracle ability of the same name, except the seersworn chooses a revelation at 1st level, and again at 6th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability replaces hex at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.
Witch’s Familiar: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Major Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Grand Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except the seersworn selects a grand hex at 20th level.
Table: Seersworn
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Cantrips, hex, mystery, oracle’s curse, 3 1 — — — — — — — —
patron spells, revelation, witch’s familiar
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Hex 4 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Hex 4 3 2 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Hex 4 3 3 2 — — — — — —
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Revelation 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Hex, major hex 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Hex 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — —
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Revelation 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — —
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Revelation 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Hex, grand hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
The playtest went well! In fact, we got pretty into it at some points.
Didn't put in a DMPC after all, so we had three characters.
Sixth level party of three-- White Witch (flying/extra lay on hands), Druid (Eagle Shaman), Stealth Mage (He LOVED the sneak attack fireball concept.)
Placed against mass combat (approx. 9 ogres) they chose to retreat.
Placed against a group of four ogres in a stealthy situation, they succeeded in slaughterhousing.
Placed against an Ogre Mage and two Ogres, they quickly dispatched the latter- a Bestow Curse from the White Witch giving the Ogre one heck of an issue.
At the end, the Witch died to a cone of cold; session was called then anyway, since getting to the six-hour point. I'd say the Ogre Mage would have won, but not without difficulty.
<raider|gm> Please give a quick pro/con of the White Witch class before you head off, please?
<raider|gm> Be as detailed as you like.
<Corvus> Brilliant support and healing. Useful if you want to either make your allies all kinds of awesome or just make the enemy constantly fail.
<Corvus> Just try to stay out of the firing line.
<Corvus> Then again that's a given. >_>
* raider|gm nods.
<raider|gm> Do you find it balanced with the other classes?
<Corvus> Pretty decent, although I do kind of think that it could use something to differentiate it a slight bit more from the standard witch.
<raider|gm> Alrighties.
From the GM-side; it felt a lot like a witch. Seriously, if it weren't for him using lay on hands twice to heal himself, I may have forgotten he was a MC.
I find it balanced, but could use a little 'spice'. Maybe work in Smite Evil or such somehow? Or heck, even Detect Evil or such. The latter is certainly in-theme.
<raider|gm> Please give a quick pro/con of the Stealth Mage class.
<Rogue_Tim> Pro: Well, it's a full-progression caster. That speaks volumes in itself. Mixing in rogue is a good bit of fun as well.
<raider|gm> Con?
<Rogue_Tim> Con: Kinda squishy, but to be expected of course. Hard to get the stealth bonus on spells, and the bonus itself tends towards spells that aren't in line with it's specialized school.
* raider|gm nods.
<raider|gm> Do you find it balanced in comparison to the other classes?
<raider|gm> the standard ones, I mean.
<Rogue_Tim> Seems balanced to me, it'll get outshined in either casting or roguery by a core of either class, but can hold it's own in either field.
* raider|gm nods. Thank you >:3
Overall, I think the class played well but was a bit all-over-the-place. We're gonna need to playtest this one again in future, but for now I think we're gonna give it the thumbs-up.
Next week, we plan to look at melee classes. Woo! >:3
Thanks for the treatment Elghinn, and advice and ideas cartmanbeck. I like a this minimalist approach adding the mystery spells to the patron list - making a good thematic link. Elghinn - in the final treatment you mention revelations at level 6 etc as traded out for hexes, but then they appear on the table at levels 8 etc?!?
I'll work up some seersworn patron/mystery links, trances, thematic ideas for familiar see how you like them. Seems pretty good to go as you say.
@raiderrpg wrote: We already got a Bard/Oracle in the Shroudsinger; maybe try the bard/cleric, just so we avoid overlap?
Okay! By the time I worked on it last night I had no bard spells, no oracle spells, some revelations and some combat only feats. It seemed I was working backwards from idea to multiclasses, so now I'll accede to logic and availability. Temple Dancer as Bard/Cleric coming up.
The playtest went well! In fact, we got pretty into it at some points.
Didn't put in a DMPC after all, so we had three characters.
I thought the Playtest wasn't for another 90mins!?
Bugger. -.-
This is, once again, TWENTY castings of a first level spell per day.
I know it seems harsh to charge 1 round per round, but that's the way all the other performances work. Even fascinate works for 1 round per Round of Performance. Think of the value when it's automatically quickened at higher levels and added to sneak attack. The Ninja can only do it a few times per day, (at level 10 it's 5+cha modifier as opposed to the bards 20+cha modifier) so you have to keep some kind of parity.
How about this:
Obfuscation (Sp): At 1st level, a songfilch can use his performance to cause himself or a single creature to vanish from sight. The creature to be vanished must be within 30 feet, and able to see and hear the songfilch when the performance begins. This performance functions like invisibility (as the spell), except the effect only lasts as long as the songfilch continues to spend rounds of bardic performance. Like invisibility, the effect immediately ends if the subject attacks any creature. If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. Obfuscation is an illusion (glamer) ability. Obfuscation relies on visual components when it affects a creature other than the songfilch. This ability replaces fascinate.
Ghost Step (Sp): A songfilch of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make himself or a single creature invisible (as per the greater invisibility spell), and requires a standard action to activate. This ability affects only a single creature, using an additional 1 round of the songfilch’s bardic performance for each round the performance continues. If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can expend 1 additional round of his bardic performance to use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. Ghost Step is an illusion (glamer) ability. Ghost Step relies on visual components in order to function when used on a creature other than the songfilch. This ability replaces suggestion.
Mislead (Sp): A songfilch of 12th level or higher can use his performance to become invisible (as greater invisibility) while an illusory double of him (as major image) appears. The songfilch is then free to go elsewhere while his double moves away. The double appears within range but thereafter moves as the songfilch directs, which requires a move action beginning on the first round after the casting. The songfilch can make the figment appear superimposed perfectly over his own body so that observers don't notice an image appearing and him turning invisible. The songfilch and the figment can then move in different directions. The double moves at the songfilch’s speed and can talk and gesture as if it were real, but it cannot attack or cast spells, though it can pretend to do so. The illusory double lasts as long as the songfilch continues performing, plus a number of additional rounds equal to his Charisma modifier. After the songfilch ceases the performance, the illusory double continues to carry out the same activity until the duration expires. Using this performance uses up 2 additional rounds of the songfilch’s bardic performance each round the performance is maintained. This performance may only create one duplicate at a time. If the performance is started again while another duplicate is still in existence, the original immediately ends. If the songfilch has made a successful diversion performance, he can expend 2 additional rounds of his bardic performance to use this performance in place of his Stealth skill check as a move action. Mislead is an illusion (figment, glamer) ability. This ability replaces soothing performance.
Hidden Troupe (Sp): This ability functions just like Obfuscation, but allows a songfilch of 18th level or higher to simultaneously make a number of creatures within 60 feet of each other invisible. The effect moves with the group and is broken when anyone in the group attacks. Individuals in the group cannot see each other. The spell is broken for any individual who moves more than 60 feet from the nearest member of the group. If only two individuals are affected, the one moving away from the other one loses its invisibility. If both are moving away from each other, they both become visible when the distance between them exceeds 60 feet. This performance requires a standard action to activate and affects a number of creatures equal to 1/2 the songfilch’s level + his Charisma modifier. Using this performance uses up 2 additional rounds of the songfilch’s bardic performance each round it is maintained. Hidden Troupe is an illusion (glamer) ability and replaces mass suggestion.
Bardic Performance =/= Ki.
You MUST balance with the ability of the bard to turn on and off his bardic performance every round in mind. This character was capable of making his entire party perma-improved-invis at level 12. Just by juggling the targets. You can't allow that. That's broke. These performances CANNOT be treated like spells without wrecking something integral. It is entirely possible you could remove the additional round requirements from this performance, but otherwise the first level one is made completely obsolete by the sixth level one. It can either:
1) be made to scale and replace less performance types, or
2) it can completely replace the performances before it (needs testing)
3) It can be left as I've written it, with the higher, more powerful forms of invisibility costing more rounds per use.
Do I need to show more of my work? Did that make sense? I have recently become aware that ~60% of communication does not translate via text (email, forum, texting), so I want to make it clear that I'm trying to be constructive, hence all the criticism. Most of what has come out of this thread is polished, attractive, and very well done. You guys/we are doing a great job!
This is, once again, TWENTY castings of a first level spell per day.
I know it seems harsh to charge 1 round per round, but that's the way all the other performances work. Even fascinate works for 1 round per Round of Performance. Think of the value when it's automatically quickened at higher levels and added to sneak attack. The Ninja can only do it a few times per day, (at level 10 it's 5+cha modifier as opposed to the bards 20+cha modifier) so you have to keep some kind of parity.
How about this:..
Yeah, I can go with that. The cost of 1 round of bardic performance for each maintaining round was never the issue. My hang up was that this is a bard/rogue, and in my head, if he has to keep "performing" to maintain his invisibility abilities, then what's the point? Mind you, they are all visual components, which can require something as simple as a mime act, a hop-dance, etc.
The playtest went well! In fact, we got pretty into it at some points.
Didn't put in a DMPC after all, so we had three characters.
I thought the Playtest wasn't for another 90mins!?
Bugger. -.-
Indeed. Would have been good to have a second from this thread giving feedback. It's all about the effort. Next time. :D
Thanks for the treatment Elghinn, and advice and ideas cartmanbeck. I like a this minimalist approach adding the mystery spells to the patron list - making a good thematic link. Elghinn - in the final treatment you mention revelations at level 6 etc as traded out for hexes, but then they appear on the table at levels 8 etc?!?
I'll work up some seersworn patron/mystery links, trances, thematic ideas for familiar see how you like them. Seems pretty good to go as you say...
Yup, my bad, changed it to 1, 6, 12, and 18. Post you nifty new abilities when you can.