Now that I'm taking a look at the seersworn mystery and it's revelations, it looks a little OP... but then I did a point-by-point comparison and it's not. @.@ Oracles get COOL POWERS!
*Also, I might call it 'Insight' rather than seersworn.
*aura of insight: combat maneuver defense is redundant, any insight bonus to AC applies to CMD.
*Precognitive trance has a limited duration, but can be renewed infinitely? Limit #/day on it.
Other than these, and a few minor editing errors which Elghinn will catch, this looks good!
And looking at the Hexcrafter, he's nothing more than an archetype, like all the others. Of course he doesn't have a save bonus, like we do with MC archetypes. Remember, archetypes are not Multiclass archetypes. the normal archetypes are simly swapping abilities. The Multcilcass concept is to essentially amalgamate two classes into a coherent new "class" which we call a "Multiclass Archetype". What we are doing is really NEW TERRITORY, and somewhat based of the archetype system. I think we've done a great job in being fair, balanced and exciting in our process. I think additions to the general guidelines, like did above (and we may need to add them to each section of the guidelines) should take care of the pickle-dippers looking to create OP maximized characters. In the end, even with these additions, its up t the DM to allow or disallow.
This is what's called 'design philosophy'. I see where you're going with this.
In the way that, if I wanted, I could combine Hexcrafter with Witch, I could not combine White Witch with Witch. It functions in the same manner as the alternate classes do. Hence the added +2 standing save. We're letting people have a single 'favored class' archetype of two classes as long as they remain within the design philosophy of the MCA, and giving them a +2 save bonus, but not in any way contradicting the writing on 'Character Advancement' & 'Multiclassing' on p30 of the core rulebook, which in no way requires you to remain to one, two, three, or even 19 different class levels.
If you want to play a fighter 1/ninja 1/cavalier 1/ranger 1/wizard 1/bard 1/cleric 1/monk 1/sorcerer 1/druid 1/paladin 1/witch 1/summoner 1/magus 1/oracle 1/alchemist 1/red mantis assassin 1/battle herald 1/holy vindicator 1/horizon walker 1 no one is stopping you (except maybe your fellow party members) ... though you may have trouble explaining why you developed a club foot at level 15. That character is perfectly legitimate by the rules as long as he is lawful good and basically wears no armor and uses no weapons. Might have to be a cleric/paladin/oracle of Irori who REALLY APPROVES of nature?
I think we're safe with this:
While individual multiclass archetypes may be compatible with normal archetypes as long as all required class features to be replaced are present (and replace those class features when they would normally occur within the multi-class archetype, not when specified by the base archetype), like any other archetype they do count as the base class for all purposes. You cannot take levels in Venom Blade and Wild Herbalist, for instance (as both are Alchemist Multiclass Archetypes), though you could take levels in both Wild Herbalist and Bone Knight (making you effectively an alchemist/druid/cavalier/sorcerer). These classes stack and apply all appropriate abilities as any archetype or class level would, as per the multiclassing rules in the core rulebook (page 30). Remember that once the character has a level in a multiclass archetype they cannot take the classes within that archetype separately, nor any alternate class of those classes contained therein.
You may or may not wish to caution people that splashing these archetypes will tend to gimp the heck out of you. Does that work?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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And looking at the Hexcrafter, he's nothing more than an archetype, like all the others. Of course he doesn't have a save bonus, like we do with MC archetypes. Remember, archetypes are not Multiclass archetypes. the normal archetypes are simly swapping abilities. The Multcilcass concept is to essentially amalgamate two classes into a coherent new "class" which we call a "Multiclass Archetype". What we are doing is really NEW TERRITORY, and somewhat based of the archetype system. I think we've done a great job in being fair, balanced and exciting in our process. I think additions to the general guidelines, like did above (and we may need to add them to each section of the guidelines) should take care of the pickle-dippers looking to create OP maximized characters. In the end, even with these additions, its up t the DM to allow or disallow.This is what's called 'design philosophy'. I see where you're going with this.
In the way that, if I wanted, I could combine Hexcrafter with Witch, I could not combine White Witch with Witch. It functions in the same manner as the alternate classes do. Hence the added +2 standing save. We're letting people have a single 'favored class' archetype of two classes as long as they remain within the design philosophy of the MCA, and giving them a +2 save bonus, but not in any way contradicting the writing on 'Character Advancement' & 'Multiclassing' on p30 of the core rulebook, which in no way requires you to remain to one, two, three, or even 19 different class levels.
If you want to play a fighter 1/ninja 1/cavalier 1/ranger 1/wizard 1/bard 1/cleric 1/monk 1/sorcerer 1/druid 1/paladin 1/witch 1/summoner 1/magus 1/oracle 1/alchemist 1/red mantis assassin 1/battle herald 1/holy vindicator 1/horizon walker 1 no one is stopping you (except maybe your fellow party members) ... though you may have trouble explaining why you developed a club foot at level 15. That character is perfectly legitimate by the rules as long as he is lawful...
Yeah, I really think the +2 to a save is not in any way broken, you get the same thing with the first level in any class. If someone wanted to dip a single level into a bunch of our archetypes, that's their own problem. We should keep it.
That there would be a -bad- design philosophy, the kind you see in 2-dollar d20 supplements sold in the bargain bin.
The more balanced, fun, and appropriate we make these, the more popular they'll be- and the more people will use them. Isn't that the goal?
@ raiderrpg: nice work on scepter and scythe! Loved the flavour...
@purplefixer: thanx for the review...
*Also, I might call it 'Insight' rather than seersworn.
*aura of insight: combat maneuver defense is redundant, any insight bonus to AC applies to CMD.
*Precognitive trance has a limited duration, but can be renewed infinitely? Limit #/day on it.
-I'm not opposed to calling the Seersworn's mystery Insight. I was merely trying to make it unique and exclusive to the Seersworn - it only has five revelations after all.
- okay - cut CMD out of Aura of insight- As for precognitive trance - I intended it to be used much like the old 3.5 warlock abilities that lasted for 24hrs (e.g.all day) Is this bonus to initiative over the top? +2 at level seven, +3 at 11, +4 at 15 and +5 at 19. Maybe hours is an untenable or rather hard to keep track of unit. I'm all for x/day for x/rounds.
@ elghinn/purple/fixer/cartmanbeck/raiderrpg: re design philiosphy. I agree whoelheartedly - the level of attention so far to splash and over-optioning is to my mind very good. And a disclaimer is needed just to make it clear re: tripleclassing and OPing.
"While individual multiclass archetypes may be compatible with normal archetypes..."
+1
While individual multiclass archetypes may be compatible with normal archetypes as long as all required class features to be replaced are present (and replace those class features when they would normally occur within the multi-class archetype, not when specified by the base archetype), like any other archetype they do count as the base class for all purposes. You cannot take levels in Venom Blade and Wild Herbalist, for instance (as both are Alchemist Multiclass Archetypes), though you could take levels in both Wild Herbalist and Bone Knight (making you effectively an alchemist/druid/cavalier/sorcerer). These classes stack and apply all appropriate abilities as any archetype or class level would, as per the multiclassing rules in the core rulebook (page 30). Remember that once the character has a level in a multiclass archetype they cannot take the classes within that archetype separately, nor any alternate class of those classes contained therein.
Yeah, I like that. Takes care of a lot of things all at once. Good job!
PS: I should be emailing you today, barring world destruction (or kids)
Alright, since we're going through some of the guideline stuff, I'm going to post it here for us to look at and recritique. Let's get these finalized and set. When that's done, I can place the revised and finaled version in my Multiclass Archetypes Guide document (which will become the final pdf with chapters for Core Archs, Base Archs, and probably one for Alternate classes (like my Constructivist and Maxx's Puppeteer).
I've added in Purplefixer's disclaimer and a note of my own. Also, once this is done (revamping the guideline section) I'll email those of you I have emails for with the first 4-5 pages of the Multiclass Archetypes Guide, so you have an idea what the final version will look like.
S0 I'm looking for rewording, clarification, etc. here. I want this to be as precise, and understandable as possible for others.
MULTICLASS ARCHETYPES
Multiclassing is one of the great traditions of fantasy roleplaying games and has resulted in a multitude of archetypical combinations. From the deadly rogue/wizard to the synergistic ranger/cleric, multiclassing allows a character to focus on a primary class while taking another, granting them the ability to more effectively deal with challenges. However, through traditional multiclassing, a character must slow his level advancement and ability progression in one class to gain levels and their subsequent abilities in a new class.
Although many players find the idea of multiclassing appealing, some do not like the necessity of sacrificing the efficacy of certain abilities from their primary class to gain those of another class. In that spirit, by using multiclass archetypes, characters can retain primary features from their primary class without compromising their potency, while exchanging less desirable class features for those from a secondary class. The multiclassing character only gains abilities from their secondary class in part, and not at their full potency like they would if they had selected that class as their primary class. The following multiclass archetypes represent a variety of classic multiclass combinations.
GUIDELINES FOR MULTICLASS ARCHETYPES
Multiclass archetypes, like traditional multiclassing, are a blend of two distinct classes. The first class in which a character gains experience is considered that character’s favored class. When one multiclasses, the character selects another class in order to diversify his repertoire of skills and class abilities, and must adhere to certain established rules. The following terms and their descriptions provide the general guidelines used to create multiclass archetypes.
Primary Class: The primary class of a mutlticlass archetype is the one upon which the archetype is based, and supplies the base hit dice, skills, skill ranks, alignment restrictions, attack bonus, saves, and class abilities for the archetype. All aspects of the primary class are adhered to within the multiclass archetype, except those altered according to archetype’s secondary class. The primary class is also the same as the class section in which the archetype is listed, such as the Spellrager, which is described in the Barbarian section of this book. In traditional multiclassing, the primary class is the character’s favored class, as selected at first level.
Secondary Class: The secondary class of a multiclass archetype provides the alternate class abilities that replace those of the primary class. In traditional multiclassing, the secondary class is a character’s class he chooses to gain experience in addition to his favored class.
Alignment Restrictions: Multiclass archetypes must adhere to the alignment restrictions of your primary or secondary class. Therefore, you cannot have a multiclass archetype with conflicting alignment restrictions, such as barbarian (any nonlawful) and paladin (lawful good only).
Hit Dice: Multiclass archetypes retain the hit dice of your primary class, unless your secondary class hit dice is two steps away (above or below) from of your primary class. It such cases, you gain new hit dice that is one step below or above that of your primary class. For example, a rogue/wizard would retain his d8 hit dice, while a fighter/wizard would receive d8 hit dice instead of the normal d10.
Skills and Ranks: Multiclass archetypes use the skills and ranks at each level listed in the primary class entry.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Multiclass archetypes gain bonus skills and ranks at each level based upon their secondary class. Depending upon the discrepancy of skills and ranks between the primary and secondary classes, the archetype provides additional skills and ranks to uphold the multiclass flavor of the archetype. Multiclass archetypes use the skill set and ranks of its primary class. If the archetype’s secondary class gains up to 2 more ranks at each level above that of the primary class, the archetype gains three bonus skills of the character’s choice as selected from the skill set of the secondary class, but gain no additional skill ranks at each level. If the secondary class gains 4 or more ranks at each level above that of the primary class, the archetype gains six bonus skills and 2 bonus ranks at each level. For example, a fighter/rogue archetype has fighter as its primary class and rogue as its secondary class. Thus, the fighter/rogue archetype uses the fighter skill list, but gains six bonus skills from the rogue’s skill list of the character’s choice, and gains a total of 4 ranks at each level. Subsequently, a bard/ranger would use the bard skill list, but only gains three bonus skills from the ranger skill list and uses the bard’s ranks at each level.
Base Attack Base: Multiclass archetypes use the base attack bonus of their primary class. If the secondary class has a base attack bonus two steps above that of the primary class, the archetype increases its base attack bonus by one step (1/2 BAB becomes 3/4 BAB, 3/4 BAB becomes full BAB). Thus, a sorcerer/fighter archetype would have a base attack bonus of 3/4 instead of 1/2.
Save Bonus: As described above, multiclass archetypes retain the base saves of its primary class. However, if the secondary class has good saves in a category that the primary class does not, you add a +2 bonus to that category. For example, a fighter has good Fortitude saves and poor Reflex and Will saves. If his secondary class is sorcerer (good Will and poor Fortitude and Reflex saves), he would then gain a +2 bonus to his base Will save. Thus, by 20th level, a fighter/sorcerer multiclass archetype would have an overall base save of +12/+6/+8 instead of the normal +12/+6/+6.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Multiclass archetypes use the weapon and armor proficiency of the primary class, but will often gain additional weapon proficiency acquired from the secondary class. Depending upon the secondary class, the archetype may also gain additional proficiency in armor, although the primary class restrictions will still apply, such as a druid’s restriction on using metal armors. Some archetypes may gain armor proficiency that hampers certain class abilities, such as with arcane spellcasters. In such cases, if the archetype flavor warrants it, the archetype will gain a class feature allowing it to use such abilities with armor in an incremental progression, similar to the armor progression of the Magus (see Ultimate Magic). The overall power of the multiclass archetype determines whether such allowances are warranted or not.
Spell Progression: Multiclass archetypes with a spellcasting primary class continue to cast spells normally in that class. If the archetype’s primary class has a spellcasting ability that is two or more steps below that of the secondary class, the archetype’s spellcasting ability increases by one step. If the primary class has no spellcasting, depending upon the archetype, it may gain a 1/2 caster spell progression or a unique progression table of its own. Unless noted otherwise, an archetype has a caster level equal to its archetype level.
Class Features: Multiclass archetypes retain all class abilities of their primary class, but also gains access to class abilities from a secondary. An archetype can exchange certain primary class abilities for secondary class abilities, as described in each individual archetype entry. Each primary class ability exchanged for a secondary class ability is designated within each archetype’s specific ability entry. When exchanging abilities, new abilities follow the same linear progression as if advancing in that class as a single class. Thus, an archetype that exchanges one increment or use of a primary ability for a secondary one, must further exchange primary class increments or uses for additional use or increments of that same secondary ability.
Capstone Abilities: Multiclass archetypes typically retain the capstone ability of their primary class, and rarely gain the capstone ability of their secondary class. However, depending upon the flavor of the archetype, it may be required to “swap“ the capstone ability of the primary class, or create a completely unique and flavorful one.
Favored Classes: There are two options pertaining to the rules of a character’s favored class, and are subject to GM approval. Upon taking a multiclass archetype, the archetype itself becomes the character’s favored class, and gains all benefits of a favored class each level.
Alternately, upon taking a multiclass archetype, the archetype’s primary class is designated as the character’s favored class, and therefore gains the benefits of a favored class at every odd level of the multiclass archetype.
Class Archetypes: Multiclass archetypes may be used with the class archetypes presented in the Advance Player’s Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, or any similar Pathfinder RPG source books, based upon compatibility and GM approval.
Disclaimer: While individual multiclass archetypes may be compatible with normal archetypes as long as all required class features to be replaced are present (and replace those class features when they would normally occur within the multi-class archetype, not when specified by the base archetype), like any other archetype they do count as the base class for all purposes. You cannot take levels in Venom Blade and Wild Herbalist, for instance (as both are Alchemist Multiclass Archetypes), though you could take levels in both Wild Herbalist and Bone Knight (making you effectively an alchemist/druid/cavalier/sorcerer). These classes stack and apply all appropriate abilities as any archetype or class level would, as per the multiclassing rules in the Core Rulebook (page 30). Remember that once the character has a level in a multiclass archetype they cannot take the classes within that archetype separately, nor any alternate class of those classes contained therein.
*Note: Although these guidelines have been presented here, they are in no way comprehensive or final. Creating a Multiclass Archetype is an art form, and requires a certain level of ingenuity, creativity, and understanding of the basic rules of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.
*EDIT: Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed how BIG this thread has gotten over the last 2 months?
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Alright, since we're going through some of the guideline stuff, I'm going to post it here for us to look at and recritique. Let's get these finalized and set. When that's done, I can place the revised and finaled version in my Multiclass Archetypes Guide document (which will become the final pdf with chapters for Core Archs, Base Archs, and probably one for Alternate classes (like my Constructivist and Maxx's Puppeteer).
I've added in Purplefixer's disclaimer and a note of my own. Also, once this is done (revamping the guideline section) I'll email those of you I have emails for with the first 4-5 pages of the Multiclass Archetypes Guide, so you have an idea what the final version will look like.
S0 I'm looking for rewording, clarification, etc. here. I want this to be as precise, and understandable as possible for others.
** spoiler omitted **...
That's because this idea is awesome and everyone loves it. I have a feeling that after we make a finished version, if you emailed the guys from Paizo, they'd let you put it up as an official download (free of course), because it's just as good (if not way better) than some of the stuff from the publishing companies they work with.
One person said...
*Why does impromptu sneak attack (GREAT trick!) require major magic or spellcasting? It has nothing to do with magic or spellcasting.
*Still and silent magic? Cool. Would making these selectable more than once be overpowered? May want to just make it 'must be able to cast spells' as a requisite. No reason it needs to be 'arcane or divine' or call out the magic talents. The magic talents are spells which would work with those, as would any spell cast by anyone. Poor alchemists. *headshakes*
*Make studied trickery an advanced talent? +6 bonus to two skills seems a little OP to me. (All my rogues ever have always specced for high int. It's too good not to. Plus gear.)
*Trapfinding: Being -allowed- to take trapfinding as a trick is nice.=====
Another person said...
Good questions! Flak put all those talents together. @Impromptu Sneak Attack - Doesn't make sense to me either, so I removed it. He probably thought it shouold be restricted to spellcasting rogues since its originally an arcane trickster ability. FLAK, if you're hovering around the thread, you can pipe in to explain yourself.I noticed Impromptu sneak attack is an advanced talent, didn't before. That should be enough of a restriction to keep the balance, without having spells as a prerequisite. And I think Sstudied trickery should probably go to advanced talents too.
1. Impromptu sneak attack
Yes, impromptu sneak attack required spellcasting because it was an arcane trickster ability. Also, it was always an advanced talent. Removing the spellcasting requirement is possible, but removes some of the flavor I had in mind. Hmm... what does "explain yourself" mean :(2. Still/Silent
Meh. I didn't like these anymore about 2 hours after I suggested them to Elghinn. (All of these were developed as part of the stealth mage.) I un-suggested them, and they were removed from the stealth mage... not sure why they reappeared?
(Also, why do you say poor alchemist? His spells are ALL SILENT.)
3. Studied Trickery
Is it really "OP" to give someone a bonus that scales with their abilities? If you're giving a rogue 22 Intelligence -- just for skills -- I'd say the +6 is LESS significant for you.
4. Trapfinding
Yes, making it a talent is about as brilliant as making mutagen a discovery for alchemists. These things should be options, and archetypes which swap them out should be able to get them later as talents. That's my thinking, at least. Anyway—glad you like this one.
ON THE TOPIC OF SAVE BONUSES
I hate them.
Sorry, Elghinn.
They're complicated, and most importantly, they're wrong. According to the charts, if you take L1 rogue, L1 inquisitor, L1 magus, and L1 cleric, at 4th level your BAB will be 0. The charts are stupid. The only sensible way to handle character stats is to figure out the formula from the charts, and then to add all your levels together and use that formula to calculate your stats. So all those classes have BAB equal to 3/4 their class levels—at 4th level, the character described above should have a BAB of +3, not of +0.
Likewise, you have good saves and bad saves. Even if you're of the school where multiclassing SHOULD give stupidly big save bonuses (I've always played with groups who say you can only ever the bonus +2 in a single save once), a flat +2 is wrong.
If you take 1st level cavalier, for instance. Your saves are:
+2.5 Fort, +.33 Ref, +.33 Will
If you take 1st level bard @ 2nd level, then, your saves should be:
+2.83 Fort, +2.83 Ref, +2.83 Will
If we do even level division through fourth level (Bard 2 Cavalier 2)...
+3.66 Fort, +3.66 Ref, +3.66 Will
Now let's look at how the save bonuses work (for Knight Errant in this case).
1st level:
+2.5 Fort, +2.33 Ref, +2.33 Will
2nd level:
+3 Fort, +2.66 Ref, +2.66 Will
4th level:
+4 Fort, +3.33 Ref, +3.33 Will
So the save bonuses do NOT work the same way as actually taking multiple classes does in terms of saves. I realize they might be a quick fix... but I don't like them. They don't make sense to me. I'd much rather give each multiclass archetype its own save progressions. To go with the same example, Knight Errant could have good fort, poor ref, good will.
My 3¢. :P
Also, good work on all the archetypes guys. I'd like to add my vote to "no multiclass archetypes dedicated to Paizo archetypes," with the caveat that we should make our multiclass archetypes as compatible with flavor-right archetypes as possible (I think this has come up before). Anyway. Onward! Maybe someday I'll rejoin the efforts... like once the semester starts in a few days... procrastination is excellent for making me super productive.
Oh, and I looked through the guidelines. Most of it works for me but..
(Bold comments below are a processing of the guideline as I read it, pretending not to know how these work)
Class Features: Multiclass archetypes retain all class abilities of their primary class, but also gains access to class abilities from a secondary. So my character gets a class's worth of abilities, PLUS abilities from another An archetype can exchange certain primary class abilities for secondary class abilities, as described in each individual archetype entry. OH i have to exchange them? Each primary class ability exchanged for a secondary class ability is designated within each archetype’s specific ability entry. That was verbose, but ok... When exchanging abilities, new abilities follow the same linear progression as if advancing in that class as a single class. Ummm what? Thus, an archetype that exchanges one increment or use of a primary ability for a secondary one, must further exchange primary class increments or uses for additional use or increments of that same secondary ability. This doesn't make sense
End result: confusion.
How about this?
Class Features: Unless otherwise noted in a multiclass archetype's entry, it retains all the class features of its primary class. Usually some of these primary class features are swapped out for some class features from the secondary class, along with some all-new abilities meant to 'bridge the gap' between the classes. The rules for these trades are the same as the rules for using alternate class features in Paizo's archetype rules (the latest version of which is in Ultimate Combat, p. 24)*. By default, your "class level" for the purpose of determining the effects of any class feature granted by a multiclass archetype is equal to your levels in that multiclass archetype. Specific abilities may operate differently; these differences are explained in the ability's description.
*It might be worth it to just include Paizo's alternate class features rules, have a page for them, it's all OGL I think
I hate them.
Sorry, Elghinn.
They're complicated, and most importantly, they're wrong. According to the charts, if you take L1 rogue, L1 inquisitor, L1 magus, and L1 cleric, at 4th level your BAB will be 0. The charts are stupid. The only sensible way to handle character stats is to figure out the formula from the charts, and then to add all your levels together and use that formula to calculate your stats. So all those classes have BAB equal to 3/4 their class levels—at 4th level, the character described above should have a BAB of +3, not of +0.
Likewise, you have good saves and bad saves. Even if you're of the school where multiclassing SHOULD give stupidly big save bonuses (I've always played with groups who say you can only ever the bonus +2 in a single save once), a flat +2 is wrong.
If you take 1st level cavalier, for instance. Your saves are:
+2.5 Fort, +.33 Ref, +.33 Will
If you take 1st level bard @ 2nd level, then, your saves should be:
+2.83 Fort, +2.83 Ref, +2.83 Will
If we do even level division through fourth level (Bard 2 Cavalier 2)...
+3.66 Fort, +3.66 Ref, +3.66 WillNow let's look at how the save bonuses work (for Knight Errant in this case).
1st level:
+2.5 Fort, +2.33 Ref, +2.33 Will
2nd level:
+3 Fort, +2.66 Ref, +2.66 Will
4th level:
+4 Fort, +3.33 Ref, +3.33 WillSo the save bonuses do NOT work the same way as actually taking multiple classes does in terms of saves. I realize they might be a quick fix... but I don't like them. They don't make sense to me. I'd much rather give each multiclass archetype its own save progressions. To go with the same example, Knight Errant could have good fort, poor ref, good will.
Siding with Flak on this one, and happy to see the math supporting my expectations.
And... on the class archetype matter... I don't think we should blend these that far. There is a point where 'design', 'too many options', and 'balance' can all become a massive CR 47 chimaera.
Part of creating good balance is saying what 'Can't be done', after all.
1. Impromptu sneak attack... what does "explain yourself" mean
Yeah, that DIDN"T come across how I meant it. I meant for you to explain your thought process and why you included "spellcasting" as a prereq. Which you just did, as you alway do. Being that the only place we've seen this ability is the Arcane Trickster, and it, as a PrC, requires spellcasting, I think we'll retain the spellcasting requirement.
You know, I don't remember that they were removed. Maybe I never took them out of my master document. Oh well. I know you don't like them, but I'm going to keep them. They only work on ONE spell a day, and aren't OP. I think it's on par with the ninja trick of being invisible for # rounds/day.
And yes, technically, alchemist "spells" are ALL SILENT.
I think Flak's right here too. Usually, a Rogue will have high Dex and Cha, and Int is usually the 3rd ability they want to have high (sometimes the second). A +2 bonus (on average)is minimal, so we'll leave it as a Talent not Adv Talent.I agree.
And this is why I like Flak (and I've done this to him on occasion). He'll give me "the numbers" which I like to see.
So, what do other's think? Shall we simply create a new Save set for each archetype. If so, that's fine, I'm all for the best system that coordinates with what Paizo already has set down in their system.
Truly, if we did that, there would be no big issues with multiclassing a core or base class with one of the MC archetypes. Although, I think there should still be the restriction that you CAN'T multiclass an archetype with a core.base class that is already incorporated into the archetype, such as a Trick Blade/Rogue multiclass. This technically would be (Rogue/Magus)/Rogue. WRONG and a shouldn't be allowed. It think Purplefixer's Disclaimer takes care of that.
I think we should probably create new SAVE sets dfor the arcehtypes. It'll be a little more work (which I can easily do with the onesalready created), and we can have them included in any new ones that come up.
Thoughts? Arguements? Mud being thrown at me?
[quote=]Class Features: Unless otherwise noted in a multiclass archetype's entry, it retains all the class features of its primary class. Usually some of these primary class features are swapped out for some class features from the secondary class, along with some all-new abilities meant to 'bridge the gap' between the classes. The rules for these trades are the same as the rules for using alternate class features in Paizo's archetype rules (the latest version of which is in Ultimate Combat, p. 24)*. By default, your "class level" for the purpose of determining the effects of any class feature granted by a multiclass archetype is equal to your levels in that multiclass archetype. Specific abilities may operate differently; these differences are explained in the ability's description.
*It might be worth it to just include Paizo's alternate class features rules, have a page for them, it's all OGL I think.
I like this. And I've added the Alternate CLass Features entry in the final doc, on an OGL page all its own.
Also, where do I find the...I can't remember what it's called but someone suggested we should add the OGL info that allows us to use the pics from Pathfinder Society? Where is that? Either tell me or post it here on the thread so I can copy/paste it into the final doc.
We're doing really well my friends!! We've evolving and making this Multiclass Archetype process better and better.
I think we should go with the NEW SAVE SET for each archetype. The more I think about it, the more it "feels" right. Here's the majority of the list of Archetypes in existence, and MY suggestions as to their new sets.
CORE MC ARCHETYPES
Spirit Warrior (Bbn/Drd) = good/poor/good
Holy Rager (Bbn/Pal) = good/poor/good
Spellrager (Bbn/Sor) = good/poor/good
Songfilch (Brd/Rog) = poor/good/good
Warchanter (Bbn/Brd) = good/poor/good
Battle Adept (Clr/Ftr) = good/poor/good
Divine Agent (Rog/Clr) = poor/good/good
Divine Exemplar (Clr/Pal) = good/poor/good
Forest Partriarch (Clr/Rgr) = poor/good/good
Land Master (Drd/Rgr) = good/poor/good
Spellarbor (Drd/Sor) = good/poor/good
Divine Blade (Ftr/Clr) = good/poor/good
Silent Warrior (Ftr/Rog) = good/good/poor
Kubudo Warrior (Mnk/Ftr) = good/good/good (do we need to give a multiclass monk 3 good saves?)
Holy Fist (Mnk/Pal) = good/good/good (do we need to give a multiclass monk 3 good saves?)
Radiant Herald (Pal/Brd) = good/poor/good
Divine Emissary (Pal/Clr) = good/poor/good
Divine Duelist (Pal/Rog) = good/good/poor
Spellknight (Pal/Sor) = good/poor/good
Divine Warden (Rgr/Clr) = good/good/poor
Beast Hunter (Rgr/Drd) = good/good/poor
Spellstrider (Rgr/Sor) = poor/good/good
Battle Knave (Rog/Ftr) = good/good/poor
Spellthief (Rog/Sor) = poor/good/good
Living Refrain (Sor/Brd) = poor/good/good
Swordmage (Sor/Ftr) = good/poor/good
Divine Mage (Wiz/Clr) = good/poor/good
Stealth Mage (Wiz/Rog) = poor/good/good
BASE MC ARCHETYPES
Mutant Hag (Alc/Wit) = good/poor/good
Wild Herbalist (Alc/Drd) = good/poor/good
Blackguard (Ant/Rog) = good/good/poor
Bloodfiend (Ant/Sor) = good/poor/good
Mutagenic Brute (Bbn/Alc) = good/good/poor
Dread Knight (Cav/Ant) – work in progress = good/poor/good
Knight Errant (Cav/Brd) = good/poor/good
Radiant Knight (Brd/Pal) = good/poor/good
Bone knight (Cav/Sor) = good/poor/good
Divine Seer (Inq/Ora) – work in progress = good/poor/good
Temple Assassin (Inq/Rog) = poor/good/good
Sword Dancer (Mag/Brd) = poor/good/good
Arcane Fist (Mag/Mnk) = poor/good/good
Arcane Vessel (Mag/Ora) = good/poor/good
Mystic Knave (Ora/Rog) = poor/good/good
Angelic Knight (Pal/Sum) = good/poor/good
Venom Blade (Rog/Alc) = poor/good/good
Trick Blade (Rog/Mag) = poor/good/good
Dead Shaman (Sor/Ora) = poor/poor/good
Shroudsinger (Brd/Ora) – work in progress = poor/good/good
Astral Captain (Sum/Ftr) = good/poor/good
Mirror Blade (Rgr/Sum) – work in progress = poor/good/good
Witch Doctor (Wit/Alc) = poor/good/good
Plague Bringer (Wit/Ant) = good/poor/good
Elder Sage (Wit/Drd) = good/poor/good
White Witch (Wit/Pal) = good/poor/good
Eldritch Warlock (Wit/Sor) = poor/good/good
We still need to rework a bunch of the CORE archetypes, and the last 4 in this list (excluding Elder Sage)
Thoughts? If you disagree with one, post the archetype(s) with your suggested save set. Thanks guys.
Shroudsinger was finalized, I believe?
Also, I like the look of it. I'm for the new saves >:3
And I don't think we should -HAVE- to give Monk all good saves, but we'd best have a good reason not too when we do switch it up.
Edit: Also, any opinions on the new Orders for the Aegis Lancer? I'm going to be putting up a proper version of the class tonight/early tomorrow, btw. Sorry it's been so long!
Elghinn. Can you check the latest Seersworn? Purplefixer and i have been bringing it pretty close to finalization. On my phone right now so can't repost. I have a temple dancer to post later today. (bard cleric) and i'll email you when i can to get guideline doc.
Like RaiderRPG mentioned, and like I set up with the HLA, saving throws are a class feature! They're not spelled out, exactly, but there's no reason not to treat them as such. As is hit-die. The Barbarian d12 is a class feature that makes them a meat-tank. The only thing I advise -against- is altering the BAB/HD relationship. Full BAB classes get D10 (or D12 as a bonus feature!), 3/4 BAB classes get d8, 1/2 BAB classes get d6. Remember the bad old days when wizards got D4? No good can come of it!
The HD/BAB tie-in was supported by designers and judges in the superstar competition, and we know that to gel with the Paizo designs and stay true to form we should honor that idea as well.
Anyhow, back to the original point...
Do NOT create an alternate saving-throw system! Saves are built with good-saves and bad-saves, and a flat bonus is just fine and all, but requiring a weird table with non-standard numbers is... well... weird. KISS. Keep these archetypes simple.
We should always be striving for compatibility and balance in all things we do. This is a Pathfinder supplement, not a Pathfinder rewrite. We shouldn't tack on additional rules where none are required. If our MCAs are too powerful to be allowed to stack, then they're not balanced.
Stopping someone from taking (rogue/magus)/rogue/ninja/(ninja/monk) is pretty much a nobrainer though. Just need to state that for the people who had a hard time understanding you couldn't play a Cavalier/Samurai. We have one at my table.
Shroudsinger was finalized, I believe?
Also, I like the look of it. I'm for the new saves >:3
And I don't think we should -HAVE- to give Monk all good saves, but we'd best have a good reason not too when we do switch it up.
Edit: Also, any opinions on the new Orders for the Aegis Lancer? I'm going to be putting up a proper version of the class tonight/early tomorrow, btw. Sorry it's been so long!
I like the orders, but you may want to change the "Challenge" on one of them? They are different orders and do have different foci. Not sure what to suggest yet. Also, I would make the following changes in their wording (bold my emphasis).
Order of the Scepter
Spell Shielding: The Order of The Scepter recognizes just how deadly potent magic throughout the world can be, both to the cavalier's charge and himself. As such, they teach how to reflect these spells back at the caster. At 15th level, the cavalier may spend a full-round action to deflect a number of spells cast at him during that round equal to 1d6 + his Int modifier. This ability functions as the spell turning spell. If he currently has defender of the apprentice in effect, he may choose to deflect spells cast upon that target instead.
Order of the Scythe
Edicts: The cavalier must punish all who would use magic to rule in tyranny. He must ensure that such dark magic ceases to exist. He must take no action that would cause *blank* *I don't know if this fits for your vision,but there needs to be some additional descriptor asdie from "use magic to rule*. Mind you, that does allow for any alignment, but that would mean a LG member of this order may need to take out the LG sorcerer king
Order Abilities
Arcane Piercing: At 2nd level, whenever the cavalier strikes a spellcaster, they must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the cavalier’s level + his Int modifier) or suffer a –1 penalty to its caster level for 1d4 rounds. This penalty increases to –2 at 9th level, and –3 at 16th. *according to your progression, it should be at 16th not 18th*
Purify the Spirit: At 8th level, the cavalier may choose to make a second saving throw against any ongoing spell effect, but must take his second roll. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3+ his Int modifier. *abilities are always 3 + Ability mod, never "2"*
Eldritch Suppression: At 15th level, the cavalier may begin to suppress spells nearby as a full-round action. Once he begins, he must track the number of rounds he has used this ability. As an immediate action during this time, he may attempt to counter any spell he identifies with a spell level equal to or less than the number of rounds this ability has been in effect. This ability functions as dispel magic, using the cavalier's level as his caster level. He may use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to his cavalier level.
OK, let's see the rest of the Aegis Lancer...Please. :D
Like RaiderRPG mentioned, and like I set up with the HLA, saving throws are a class feature! They're not spelled out, exactly, but there's no reason not to treat them as such. As is hit-die. The Barbarian d12 is a class feature that makes them a meat-tank. The only thing I advise -against- is altering the BAB/HD relationship. Full BAB classes get D10 (or D12 as a bonus feature!), 3/4 BAB classes get d8, 1/2 BAB classes get d6. Remember the bad old days when wizards got D4? No good can come of it!
The HD/BAB tie-in was supported by designers and judges in the superstar competition, and we know that to gel with the Paizo designs and stay true to form we should honor that idea as well.
Anyhow, back to the original point...
Do NOT create an alternate saving-throw system! Saves are built with good-saves and bad-saves, and a flat bonus is just fine and all, but requiring a weird table with non-standard numbers is... well... weird. KISS. Keep these archetypes simple.We should always be striving for compatibility and balance in all things we do. This is a Pathfinder supplement, not a Pathfinder rewrite. We shouldn't tack on additional rules where none are required. If our MCAs are too powerful to be allowed to stack, then they're not balanced.
Stopping someone from taking (rogue/magus)/rogue/ninja/(ninja/monk) is pretty much a nobrainer though. Just need to state that for the people who had a hard time understanding you couldn't play a Cavalier/Samurai. We have one at my table.
Saying which saves have good progressions for a multiclass archetype is, I think, KISS. It doesn't rewrite or break Pathfinder's system. I'm glad Elghinn's on board with my idea. It's a good one. *poses*
@Elghinn - monk multiclass archetypes do NOT need to have all 3 good saves in my opinion. Arcane fist I think should be Good/Poor/Good but that might just be me (I see him as more of a fighting caster type a la druid/cleric and less of a roguey caster type a la bard). Over and out~
Saying which saves have good progressions for a multiclass archetype is, I think, KISS. It doesn't rewrite or break Pathfinder's system. I'm glad Elghinn's on board with my idea. It's a good one. *poses*
@Elghinn - monk multiclass archetypes do NOT need to have all 3 good saves in my opinion. Arcane fist I think should be Good/Poor/Good but that might just be me (I see him as more of a fighting caster type a la druid/cleric and less of a roguey caster type a la...
I agree, that's what I did.
My thought is:
Monk/X = 3 good saves (holyfist & kubudo warrior)
X/Monk = 2 good saves, which ones depends on the the archetype (arcane fist, etc.).
Elghinn. Can you check the latest Seersworn? Purplefixer and i have been bringing it pretty close to finalization. On my phone right now so can't repost. I have a temple dancer to post later today. (bard cleric) and i'll email you when i can to get guideline doc.
Sure. I've been letting you and Purplefixer and cartmanbeck hammer it out, so I haven't totally kept up on all the recet changes. How about you post the most recent version with the newest changes, then I'll take a look.
Along with Purplefixer's disclaimer (mentioned in an above thread), I took the liberty of rewriting the Saving Throw section of the Guidelines.
Saving Throws: Multiclass archetypes gain a new set of saving throws, based upon the classes used to create them. If the two classes used to create a multiclass archetype have the same saves (Witch/Sorcerer), or if they overlap in whole or in part (Cleric/Paladin), the new archetype gains the original saves of the two classes. If the two classes each have one good save that does not overlap, the new archetype gains two good saves. If the two classes each have two good saves that do not completely overlap (Alchemist/Druid), the new archetype gains only two good saves as based upon the flavor of the archetype. Only when the primary class has three good saves (Monk) are all three gained in the archetype. Otherwise, only two good saves are gained.
Saying which saves have good progressions for a multiclass archetype is, I think, KISS. It doesn't rewrite or break Pathfinder's system. I'm glad Elghinn's on board with my idea. It's a good one. *poses*
@Elghinn - monk multiclass archetypes do NOT need to have all 3 good saves in my opinion. Arcane fist I think should be Good/Poor/Good but that might just be me (I see him as more of a fighting caster type a la druid/cleric and less of a roguey caster type a la...
I agree, that's what I did.
My thought is:
Monk/X = 3 good saves (holyfist & kubudo warrior)
X/Monk = 2 good saves, which ones depends on the the archetype (arcane fist, etc.).
I'm not sure about that. I think in some cases even if the primary class is monk, you'd want to reduce one (or more????) of the saves to reflect the decreased 'purity' (since I always associated the monk's universally high saves with asceticism of some sort). Not sure. Anyway, nice. Sorry that my MO right now seems to be 'show up, snipe with criticism, disappear' ... I promise I appreciate everything, including both the things I'm criticizing and the things I'm not mentioning at all! This is a really awesome effort =)
I'm not sure about that. I think in some cases even if the primary class is monk, you'd want to reduce one (or more????) of the saves to reflect the decreased 'purity' (since I always associated the monk's universally high saves with asceticism of some sort). Not sure. Anyway, nice. Sorry that my MO right now seems to be 'show up, snipe with criticism, disappear' ... I promise I appreciate everything, including both the things I'm criticizing and the things I'm not mentioning at all! This is a really awesome effort =)Saying which saves have good progressions for a multiclass archetype is, I think, KISS. It doesn't rewrite or break Pathfinder's system. I'm glad Elghinn's on board with my idea. It's a good one. *poses*
@Elghinn - monk multiclass archetypes do NOT need to have all 3 good saves in my opinion. Arcane fist I think should be Good/Poor/Good but that might just be me (I see him as more of a fighting caster type a la druid/cleric and less of a roguey caster type a la...
I agree, that's what I did.
My thought is:
Monk/X = 3 good saves (holyfist & kubudo warrior)
X/Monk = 2 good saves, which ones depends on the the archetype (arcane fist, etc.).
+1.
Perhaps the monk part should read something like "Should either class have three good saves (Monk), retention of all three is dependant on the flavor of the archetype. Otherwise it only gains two good saves."
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Elghinn: here is the latest seersworn and I have added the latest thoughts re changes from myself and purplefixer. EDIT oh and I'm emailing you now for the guidelines! :)
Seersworn:
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Oracle.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The seersworn may select three oracle skills to her class skills in addition to her normal witch class skills. The seersworn gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 2 + Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Seersworns are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a seersworn’s gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Spellcasting: A seerworn casts spells as a witch and draws her spells from the witch spell list. Her caster level is equal to her seersworn level. The seersworn gains bonus spells for a high Intelligence score.
Cantrips: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except that she chooses a hex as shown on Table: seersworn.
Mystery: This is exactly like the oracle ability of the same name, except that the seersworn adds her mystery spells to her spell list at the listed levels, just as she does her Patron spells. A seersworns mystery should be compatible with her patron - for example Bones/Plague, Battle/Strength, Nature/Animals.
Oracle’s Curse (Ex): This is exactly like the oracle’s ability of the same name.
Patron Spells: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Revelations: This is exactly like the Oracle ability of the same name, except the seersworn chooses a revelation at 1st level, and again at 6th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability replaces Hex at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.
Witch’s Familiar: The seersworn's familiar is her direct connection to the powers who provide her more otherworldly visions and abilities, and is able to give her direct advice and counsel. This functions exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name with the following additions. *The familiar gains an intelligence score of 8 and learns one language that only the seersworn can understand. At 6th level, and every 6 levels past that, the familiar gains a point of Intelligence and learns another language with which to communicate with the Seersworn's allies.
*If the familiar is unconscious, confused, or slain otherwise incapacitated, the seersworn loses her access to revelations and to her mystery spells until it is restored or replaced. This new familiar begins with the same intelligence as its' predecessor.
*The seersworn must make a concentration check to cast mystery spells if the familiar is more than 5' away from her.
Major Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Grand Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except the seersworn selects a grand hex at 20th level.
Modified Hex: Cackle becomes Seersworn's Cry: The Seersworn's Cry is a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex or misfortune hex OR any revelation that has a duration expressed in rounds, has the duration of that hex or revelation extended by 1 round.
New Hex:
Seersworn's Blight: This attack can be made as a free action, at a range of 30 feet. The target of this hex receives the negative effects of the seersworn's oracle's curse ability, as if that target was a 1st level oracle with that curse.
New Major Hex:
Greater Seersworn's Blight : As Seersworn's Blight, but affects one extra victim per three seersworn levels + int modifier at a range of 30 feet.
New Grand Hex:
Seersworn's Malevolence: As Seersworn's Blight, but affects all within earshot.
New Mystery: The following Seersworn Mystery may be chosen by a seersworn :
Mystery:
Seersworn
Deities: Any
Class Skills: A seersworn with the seersworn mystery adds Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy and Sense motive to her list of class skills.
Bonus Spells: hypnotic pattern (2nd), seeming (4th), invisibility purge (6th), sending (8th), wandering star motes (10th), owl's wisdom, mass (12th), sequester (14th), scintillating pattern(16th), euphoric tranquility (18th), wall of suppression(20th)
Revelations: A seersworn with the seersworn mystery may choose from the following revelations.
Aura of Insight (Su): As a standard action, you can give a small amount of your insight to your allies. The aura affects one ally plus one additional ally for every three seersworn levels you possess, who must all be within 30 feet of you. Affected allies gain a +2 insight bonus on attack rolls, AC, combat maneuver defense, and skill checks for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. The seersworn may use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Wis modifier.
Trance of Clarity (Su): This trance grants the seersworn and her familiar a +4 bonus on all saving throws made against mind-affecting effects and immunity to confusion. This bonus lasts for 1 minute. If the familiar fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect during this period, it loses its immunity to confusion and is immediately confused for one round. While the familiar is confused, the seersworn may not use her revelations or mystery Spells. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wis modifier.
Second Sight (Ex): You gain a racial bonus on Perception checks equal to 1/2 your seersworn level (minimum +1). In addition, if you can act during a surprise round, you receive a +2 racial bonus on your Initiative check.
Precognitive Trance (Su): This trance can be entered as a free action, and lasts for 1 hour/level. Your insight into the future grants you an advantage in combat. At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, you gain a +1 insight bonus on initiative checks.
Spirit Trance (Su): As a standard action, you can ask one question of a dead creature as if using speak with dead. The dead creature you are questioning does not gain a Will saving throw if your alignments are different. You can use this ability for a number of times per day equal to your seersworn level.
Table: Seersworn
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 01st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Cantrips, hex, mystery, oracle’s curse, 3 1 — — — — — — — — patron spells, revelation, witch’s familiar
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Hex 4 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Hex 4 3 2 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Hex 4 3 3 2 — — — — — —
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Revelation 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Hex, major hex 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Hex 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — —
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Revelation 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — —
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Revelation 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Hex, grand hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
Now that I'm taking a look at the seersworn mystery and it's revelations, it looks a little OP... but then I did a point-by-point comparison and it's not. @.@ Oracles get COOL POWERS!
*Also, I might call it 'Insight' rather than seersworn.
*aura of insight: combat maneuver defense is redundant, any insight bonus to AC applies to CMD.
*Precognitive trance has a limited duration, but can be renewed infinitely? Limit #/day on it.
Other than these, and a few minor editing errors which Elghinn will catch, this looks good!
I'm not opposed to calling the Seersworn's mystery Insight. I was merely trying to make it unique and exclusive to the Seersworn - it only has five revelations after all.
- okay - cut CMD out of Aura of insight
- As for precognitive trance - I intended it to be used much like the old 3.5 warlock abilities that lasted for 24hrs (e.g.all day) Is this bonus to initiative over the top? +2 at level seven, +3 at 11, +4 at 15 and +5 at 19. Maybe hours is an untenable or rather hard to keep track of unit. I'm all for x/day for x/rounds.
Saying which saves have good progressions for a multiclass archetype is, I think, KISS. It doesn't rewrite or break Pathfinder's system. I'm glad Elghinn's on board with my idea. It's a good one. *poses*
*LOL!*
Awright. I peeled balance with the HLA by dropping their good Fort save, their speed, AC bonus, and unarmed damage progression as a switch for some of the abilities they got, in order to prevent dead levels. I also used a slightly slower power progression and swapped some abilities wholesale. If we obey that monk/x = good/good/good rule, I may have to drop one of the features and shift the save back, which is a mildly painful alteration and may necessitate rewriting what I thought was a pretty polished design. I think the HLA-MCA gels as written though.
Shall I continue critiquing something here, or shall I contribute something new? We have SO MUCH now, we may need to pop out a checklist of things to do, and make some possible claims/assignments.
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Nice collaborative work on the saves everyone. Nice to see Flak reappear, if only briefly. ;p
This is my last mc archetype for a while - I want to focus on reading through elghinn's new guidelines and check out/workshop some of your archetypes - it seems like I'm being a bit selfish pushing my own barrow! :) Thanks for all the help so far with the seersworn!
So this is the first draft of the Temple Dancer. I’ve included a number of options for your design commentary. Let me know what y’all think:
Many times have temple emissaries breached seemingly impossible defenses with the soft charms of lissome grace. Sent as agents of diplomacy-by-guile-and-grace, Temple Dancers combine divine charms with fluid movements designed to beguile, bedazzle and besiege.
Primary: Bard
Secondary: Cleric
Hit Dice: d8
Weapon/Armor Proficiencies: All simple weapons, longsword, rapier, shortsword and favoured weapon of deity. Temple Dancers are proficient with light armor. (If keeping bard spells:) A temple dancer wearing medium or heavy armor, or using a shield, incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
Saves: +0 ? Bard gets f/r/w 0/+2/+2, cleric f/r/w +2/0/+2
Bonus skills: Add heal only. +2 + int bonus per level
The following are class features of the Temple Dancer:
Spells: Want to keep Bard spell progression tables, but have these options for what to do re spell list:
Spells Option 1: a revised Temple Dancer spell list I have winnowed from the Bard list in Core Rulebook and APG, which is rather lengthy to list, but which is probably only ½ to 2/3 of original. I took out big area affectors or showy magic show types in favour of more thematically appropriate nearby/self/ally spells. Not sure if presenting such a list is desirable in terms of length of multiclass archetype descriptions. However, some base classes have spell lists presented (witch, summoner and inquisitor for example) – not that that means we should emulate them. It could be argued that bard spells, being arcane, don’t fit a TEMPLE dancer, but the temple dancer in this option is an agent of her divine organisation, with a few divine abilities that tie her to her church/temple/shrine/cult etc, coupled with tricks of the dancers’ caste used to carry out their missions.
Spells Options 2a/b/c :The Temple Dancer chooses spells from
ANY bard or cleric(option A) -
OR bard only(option B) -
OR cleric only(option C) -
spell that has NO material component, EXCEPTING divine focus. There aren’t that many and they seem less aura/area and more nearby/self. The idea for this option is again that the multiclass is not majorly showy or spell-dependent, but I wanted some spells apart from domain spells to complement flavour as spelled-up agent, and to have them appear more as part of her dance/fluid grace/deity boon than a more ritualised “spell” or “casting”.
Spells Option 3: Give the temple dancer the NPC adept class spell list, minus animate dead, minor creation, polymorph and raise dead. This option lends itself to the idea that while Temple dancers are not priests or clerics, they still have some access to divine spells.
I’m leaning towards Option 2a or 2c.
Class Features from Bard:
Temple Knowledge: As Bard Knowledge but limited to Knowledge: Religion, Knowledge: History and Knowledge: Nobility.
Temple Dance: as Bard Performance.
No countersong, no cantrips, no well versed, no lore master and no jack of all trades.
Distraction, fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, suggestion, inspire greatness, mass suggestion – as bard
(Dirge)Dance of doom, soothing (performance)dance, frightening (tune)dance and deadly (performance)dance - as bard except renamed dance instead of song/tune/performance.
Versatile Performance – as Bard ability of the same name.
Class Features from Cleric –
At 4th level: limited medium armor proficiency – breastplate or agile breastplate ONLY – (those dancing legs and arms need to be free! )Also arcane armor training feat if using Spells Options 1 or 2a/b
No Aura
Channel energy – wanted to downgrade this to every 4 or 5 level progression, if kept at all. See below.
Domains - one domain only, and definitely keep domain powers and only perhaps keep spells.
Orisons: As Cleric - simple "lay" spells a temple functionary of most kinds would have.
No Spontaneous Casting
Chaotic, Evil, Good and Lawful casting - as Cleric.
No Bonus Languages
OK – So if any of the above was controversial, please don’t hate me now because I want to (here goes):
Add bonus combat only feats! That’s right – neither bard nor cleric get this fighter bonus feature yet I want to add them. “What is it with this guy?” I hear you cry. “OSW, you really are a *&%$#$@.” “GESTALT!” Okay, okay, calm down, hear me out.
With NO countersong, cantrips, wellversed/loremaster/jack-of-all-trades, reduced bardic knowledge, possibly revised and reduced spell list, if any, no spontaneous casting or cleric bonus languages and limited channel energy, if any, is it too much of a stretch to grant a choice from dancer-style abilities like the following combat feats - lunge (“dancer’s lunge”) combat expertise (“graceful step”) or vital strike (“spry strike”) for example?
Options to balance:
1) drop channel energy altogether!
2)Alternatively or additionally I’m willing to drop versatile performance – the Sea Singer Bard archetype in APG swaps this out for a non-weapon, item-only version of the wizard’s arcane bond!
OR call them Temple Dancer abilities, let the Temple Dancer swap them out for channel energy, rename them and no-one will care that they are essentially bonus feats.
OR very lastly, I’m willing to drop spells all together, or just use Spell Option 3 (adept minus a few) in exchange for these “dances.” Not sure about progression or how many. What do you peeps think? (Ducks, pops head up again, looks around gingerly) ☺
I respect the fact that this is may be a slight leap away from the guidelines we are working to but this fits my original design concept loosely based on the devadasi of the hindu faith – jammed to a more martial shrine-defending-enemy-beheading-whirlwind of dancing death!
What's wrong with the two Dervishes?
Inner Sea Magic p34, Dawnflower Dervish
Ultimate Combat p32, Dervish Dancer
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Nice collaborative work on the saves everyone. Nice to see Flak reappear, if only briefly. ;p
This is my last mc archetype for a while - I want to focus on reading through elghinn's new guidelines and check out/workshop some of your archetypes - it seems like I'm being a bit selfish pushing my own barrow! :) Thanks for all the help so far with the seersworn!
So this is the first draft of the Temple Dancer. I’ve included a number of options for your design commentary. Let me know what y’all think:
** spoiler omitted **...
1. I would stick with the Bard + Cleric spell lists (Option 2A), for the sake of being simple. Leave it up to the player to choose spells that are in line with the flavor of the class.
2. I'd say dropping Versatile Performance for bonus feats from a specific list would be fine. Just call them Dance Tricks and list them. You can rename them if you want, something like this:
Dancer's Lunge: The Temple Dancer gains the benefits of the Lunge feat without needing to fulfill prerequisites.
So, lemme just make sure we've got the substitutions all figured out:
-Spellcasting is now divine, taken from both the cleric and bard lists, but with bard spells known and spells per day limits. - fine
-Temple Knowledge replaces Bardic Knowledge - fine, although maybe a bit weak. Maybe give some type of divine bonus to these, since you're limiting the types of knowledge?
-Temple Dance replaces Bardic Performance - fine
-Orisons replace Cantrips - fine
-Domain replaces Countersong - fine, but you should make the domain powers show up at higher levels, generally, and the domain spells should just be added to the spell list, no bonus spell slots or anything
-Channel Energy (Say at every 4 levels, starting with level 2) replaces Well-versed and Lore Master - fine
All of that seems completely reasonable to me. Sounds like a nicely flavorful MC archetype. You could give a new capstone if you want, something more thematic than Deadly Dance.
@Oceanshieldwolf: aww, that's sweet! I don't think I've done anything to merit that kindness :P
(Still waiting for someone to complain about my hideous avatar.)
@Elghinn: Yo okay so I've updated all the ones I did here: [flakfinder | multiclass archetypes]. They've got the new save sets. Also, yes, redesigning that site has taken up as much time as I would have otherwise spent making more content. I'm bad. :(
Speaking of new content! My first lecture of the semester looms in 3 hours and I am of course wondering what's on the plate. Could we get an updated list of what's in progress and what needs to become in progress? Any original MCAs in need of redoing? Any new MCAs on the table? Lemme know what's up!
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Saying which saves have good progressions for a multiclass archetype is, I think, KISS. It doesn't rewrite or break Pathfinder's system. I'm glad Elghinn's on board with my idea. It's a good one. *poses*
*LOL!*
Awright. I peeled balance with the HLA by dropping their good Fort save, their speed, AC bonus, and unarmed damage progression as a switch for some of the abilities they got, in order to prevent dead levels. I also used a slightly slower power progression and swapped some abilities wholesale. If we obey that monk/x = good/good/good rule, I may have to drop one of the features and shift the save back, which is a mildly painful alteration and may necessitate rewriting what I thought was a pretty polished design. I think the HLA-MCA gels as written though.
Shall I continue critiquing something here, or shall I contribute something new? We have SO MUCH now, we may need to pop out a checklist of things to do, and make some possible claims/assignments.
As always, the Monk is the enigma...I think overall flavor of the archetype is the overriding factor + balance of course. So, with the HLA, you need to do what you need to do to keep flavor and balance. I think the 3 good saves can't necessarily be a hard and fast rule, but more of a feeling for the concept of the archetype.
Like Flak said, the Arcane Fist doesn't need the 3 good saves. Your HLA, however (Monk/Ninja) could have the 3 saves, because both ninja and monk are both focused on the whole mystic mental discipline of the ancient martial arts and meditation.
And yes, I agree, we may need to put up a list.
1) Feedback on the guidelines (once this is done, everything can move forward)
2) Let's get the current Archetypes on the thread out of the way before new ones.
That should include:
Seersworn (almost complete, posted above)
Temple Dancer (just posted above)
Aegis Lancer (just need the next post)
Forest Patriarch (maybe additional feedback but seems good)
Land Master (maybe additional feedback but seems good)
Divine Agent (should be done)
Any other ones I missed?
Here's these for direct reference so they are ll sort of in the same thread area.
Primary Class: Cleric.
Secondary Class: Rogue.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Divine agents may select six rogue skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cleric class skills. The divine agent gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Divine agents are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor and medium armor, but not with shields. Divine agents are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity.
Spellcasting: Divine agents cast divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list. A divine agent otherwise prepares and casts spells as a cleric of equal level, but can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Divine Agent, and receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. In addition, a divine agent cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s.
Aura (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name.
Diminished Casting: The divine agent casts one fewer spell of each spell level per day. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if he receives bonus spells of that level from having a high ability score or from his domain. He otherwise learns, prepares, and casts spells as a cleric of equal level.
Domain: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except the divine agent may select only one domain. He can choose his domain from among those belonging to his deity, the Trickery domain or any associated subdomains (even if his deity does not normally provide access to them), the Stealth domain, or an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law). He otherwise follows all other parameters pertaining to cleric domains.
Orisons: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name.
Sneak Attack (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that the extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 at 4th level and every four divine agent levels thereafter. This ability replaces channel energy 1d6, 3d6, 5d6, 7d6 and 9d6.
Talents: At 1st level, and again at 4th level and every three levels thereafter, a divine agent gains either a rogue talent for which he qualifies or one of the following rogue abilities: evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. A divine agent must select evasion before he can select uncanny dodge, and uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge. At 13th level, the divine agent can choose advanced rogue talents whenever he could choose a rogue talent. In the case of the improved evasion talent, the divine agent must have evasion to select it. A divine agent treats his level as his rogue level for the purpose of qualifying for talents with level-dependent requirements and calculating the effects of any talent or rogue ability he's chosen. This ability replaces domain.
Channel Energy (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the amount of damage dealt or healed by the divine agent is equal to 1d6 points of damage at 2nd level plus 1d6 points of damage for every four divine agent levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of 5d6 at 18th level.
Channeling Strike (Su): At 3rd level, a divine agent can channel his divine energy through a sneak attack. Before the divine agent makes an attack roll, he can choose to spend one use of his channel energy ability as a swift action. If the divine agent channels positive energy, his weapon becomes imbued with holy power and gains the holy weapon ability until the end of his turn. This makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. On a successful sneak attack, it deals extra points of holy damage against all creatures of evil alignment equal to the damage dealt by his channel positive energy ability. If the divine agent channels negative energy, his weapon becomes imbued with unholy power and gains the unholy weapon ability until the end of his turn. This makes the weapon evil-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals extra points of unholy damage against all creatures of good alignment equal to the damage dealt by his channel negative energy ability. The target can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the divine agent’s level + the divine agent’s Charisma modifier), as normal, to halve this additional damage (but not sneak attack damage). If the divine agent’s attack misses, the channel energy ability is still expended with no effect. This ability and greater channeling strike replace spontaneous casting.
Greater Channeling Strike (Su): At 11th level, when making a channeling strike, the dice from the divine agent’s channel energy feature form a pool of damage dice he can access to further damage creatures with his divine energy—evil creatures for positive energy, good creatures for negative energy. Prior to making each sneak attack, the divine agent must allocate dice from the pool to be used as extra damage dice if he hits. The target can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the divine agent’s level + the divine agent’s Charisma modifier), as normal, to halve this extra damage. This extra damage is not multiplied when the divine agent scores a critical hit. If the divine agent misses, the extra damage dice remain in his pool, but any dice left unexpended at the end of his turn are wasted. This ability and channeling strike replace spontaneous casting.
Divine Strike (Su): Upon reaching 20th level, a divine agent becomes incredibly deadly when channeling sneak attack damage. Each time the divine agent successfully makes a channeling strike, he can choose to deal twice the damage dealt by his channel energy ability, or force the target (if it is an outsider) to become subject to a banishment, using his divine agent level as the caster level.
Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the divine agent’s level + the divine agent’s Charisma modifier) for half damage, as normal, or the appropriate save to negate the banishment effect. Once a creature has been the target of a divine strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that divine agent’s divine strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability. This ability replaces master strike.
Rogue Talents: The divine agent adds impromptu sneak attack, studied trickery, and trapfinding to the list of rogue talents he can select. The following rogue talents complement the divine agent multiclass archetype: assault leader*, black market connections†, camouflage*, canny observer*, coax information*, fast stealth, finesse rogue, guileful polygot*, hard to fool*, honeyed words*, ki pool†, major magic, minor magic, ninja trick†, and strong impression*. (*Advanced Player’s Guide, †Ultimate Combat)
Advanced Talents: The following advanced rogue talents complement the divine agent multiclass archetype: confounding blades†, defensive roll, dispelling attack, hard to fool†, hide in plain sight†, improved evasion, redirect attack*, rumormonger†, skill mastery, slippery mind, thoughtful reexamining*, an unwitting ally†. (*Advanced Player’s Guide, †Ultimate Combat)
New Rogue Talents
The following new rogue talents can be taken by any rogue who meets the prerequisites.
Silent Magic (Su): The rogue can cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the Silent Spell feat. This does not increase the casting time or the level of the spell. The rogue must be able to cast spells to select this talent.
Still Magic (Su): The rogue can cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the Still Spell feat. This does not increase the casting time or the level of the spell. The rogue must be able to cast spells to select this talent.
Studied Trickery: Choose two of the following skills: Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth. The rogue adds her Intelligence bonus to checks made with these skills in addition to the normal ability bonus used by the skill. A rogue can pick this talent more than once, each time selecting another two skills.
Trapfinding: This rogue talent functions as the first-level rogue ability by the same name.
New Advanced Talents
The following new advanced talents can be taken by any rogue who meets the prerequisites.
Impromptu Sneak Attack: Once per day, a rogue with this talent can declare one melee or ranged attack she makes to be a sneak attack, with the normal range restrictions on ranged sneak attacks. The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack. The power can be used against any target, but creatures not subject to critical hits take no extra damage. The rogue must be able to cast spells to select this talent.
NEW DOMAIN
Clerics that have Trickery as one of their deity’s domains can instead chose the new Stealth domain. Divine agents can select the Stealth domain, and the Trickery domain or any of its subdomains in place of one of her deity’s domains. The following new domain compliments the divine agent multiclass archetype.
Stealth Domain
Granted Powers: You are a master of stealth and the use of shadows to surprise your enemies or vanish from sight. Bluff, Disable Device, and Stealth are class skills.
Sudden Shift (Sp): In the blink of an eye, you can appear somewhere else. As an immediate action, after you are missed by a melee attack, you can teleport up to 10 feet to a space that you can see. This space must be inside the reach of the creature that attacked you. You can use this power a number of times each day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, you can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as you are within 10 feet of an area of dim light, you can hide yourself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. You cannot, however, hide in your own shadow.
Domain Spells: 1st—vanish, 2nd—invisibility, 3rd—nondetection, 4th—greater invisibility, 5th—shadow step, 6th—mislead, 7th—shadow walk, 8th—mass invisibility, 9th—greater shadow conjuration.
Table: Divine Agent
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Aura, diminished casting, domain, 2 0+1 — — — — — — — —
orisons, sneak attack +1d6, talents
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Channel energy +1d6 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Channeling strike 3 1+1 0+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Sneak attack +2d6, talents 3 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 3 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Channel energy 2d6 3 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Talents 3 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Sneak attack +3d6 3 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 3 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Channel energy 3d6, talents 3 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Greater channeling strike 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Sneak attack +4d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Talents, advanced talents 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Channel energy 4d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Sneak attack +5d6, talents 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Channel energy 5d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Talents 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Divine strike, sneak attack +6d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1
Note: “+1” represents the domain spell slot
Primary Class: Cleric.
Secondary Class: Ranger.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Forest patriarchs may select six ranger skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cleric class skills. The forest patriarch gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Forest patriarchs are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower).
Aura (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name.
Diminished Spellcasting: The forest patriarch chooses only one domain and gains one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if they are domain spells or if his Wisdom allows bonus spells of that level. He otherwise learns, prepares, and casts spells as a cleric of equal level.
Domain: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except the divine agent may select only one domain from among those belonging to his deity. In addition, the forest patriarch may select the Forest Domain (or any associated Terrain domain, dependent upon his alternate terrain) as his chosen domain, even if his deity does not normally provide access to it. A forest patriarch can also select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) as his choice. He otherwise follows all other parameters pertaining to cleric domains.
Favored Enemy (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the forest patriarch gains his first favored enemy at 1st level, and his subsequent favored enemies every six levels thereafter, to a maximum of his 4th favored enemy at 19th level. This ability and favored terrain replace channel energy 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 10d6.
Favored Strike: At 1st level, a forest patriarch uses his forest patriarch level in place of his base attack bonus when making attack rolls against a favored enemy. He also uses his forest patriarch level as his base attack bonus for the purpose of determining the number of attacks he can make in a full attack action when attacking a favored enemy. This ability replaces the first domain power.
Orisons: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name.
Track (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the first domain spell.
Channel Energy (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the amount of damage dealt or healed by the forest patriarch is equal to 1d6 points of damage at 2nd level plus 1d6 points of damage for every four divine agent levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of 5d6 at 18th level.
Wild Empathy (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the second domain spell.
Favored Terrain (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the forest patriarch can select only one terrain, and must select the forest terrain. At 8th level and every five levels thereafter, the skill bonus and initiative bonus in his favored terrain increases by +2. The forest terrain does not select additional favored terrains. This ability and favored terrain replace channel energy 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 10d6.
Hunter’s Bond (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except the forest patriarch must choose the animal bond. This ability replaces the second domain power.
Woodland Stride (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the third domain spell.
Swift Tracker (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the fourth domain spell.
Evasion (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the fifth domain spell.
Improved Favored Strike (Su): At 11th level, a forest patriarch can channel his divine energy when attacking a favored enemy. Before the forest patriarch makes an attack roll, he can choose to spend one use of his channel energy ability as a swift action. On a successful hit, it deals extra points of divine damage against all favored enemies equal to the damage dealt by his channel energy ability. The target can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the forest patriarch’s level + the forest patriarch’s Charisma modifier), as normal, to halve this additional damage. If the forest patriarch’s attack misses, the channel energy ability is still expended with no effect. This ability replaces spontaneous casting.
Quarry (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the sixth domain spell.
Treestride (Su): At 12th level, a forest patriarch can step into a tree, magically infusing himself with it. Once within a tree, the forest patriarch you can teleport from that particular tree to another living tree of the same kind, with a girth at least equal to the forest patriarch. The effect lasts until you exit the tree, or after a number of minutes have passed equal to the forest patriarch’s level, whichever comes first. Each transport is a full-round action. This ability otherwise functions like the treestride spell. The forest patriarch can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Wisdom modifier. This ability replaces the seventh domain spell.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the eighth domain spell.
Hunter’s Strike (Su): A forest patriarch of 20th level becomes a true hunter of those who wantonly cause destruction in his favored terrain. He can always move at full speed while using Survival to follow tracks without penalty, but only within in his favored terrain. He can, as a standard action, make a single attack against a favored enemy at his full attack bonus. If the attack hits, the target takes an amount of divine damage equal to twice the damage dealt by his channel energy ability. The target can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the forest patriarch’s level + the forest patriarch’s Charisma modifier), as normal, to halve this additional damage. A forest patriarch can use this ability once per day against each favored enemy type he possesses, but not against the same creature more than once in a 24-hour period. This ability replaces the ninth domain spell.
Alternate Terrain: Although the forest patriarch is based on the woodland terrain, he may select an alternate terrain at the time of character creation in which he gains the benefits of the favored terrain, woodland stride, and treestride abilities. This also applies to the Forest Domain and its related abilities, if the character chooses it as his domain. Once chosen it cannot be changed.
NEW DOMAIN
Clerics that have Animal or Plant as one of their deity’s domains can instead chose the new Forest domain. Forest patriarchs can select the Animal or Plant domain, or any of their subdomains in place of one of his deity’s domains. The following new domain compliments the forest patriarch multiclass archetype.
Forest Domain
Granted Powers: You are a master of the forest terrain, a father of the trees, and able to travel through the landscape quickly and quietly. Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival are class skills.
Forest Step (Su): You ignore the adverse movement effects of difficult terrain, and can even take 5-foot steps in difficult terrain while within a forest terrain.
Leaf Armor (Su): At 6th level, you can cause a layer of flexible, scale-like leaves to cover from your skin as a free action. While leaf armor is in effect, you gain a +1 natural armor bonus to your AC. This natural armor bonus increases by +1 at 9th level and every three cleric levels thereafter to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Domain Spells: 1st— speak with animals, 2nd— barkskin, 3rd— plant shape (as stone shape, but affects trees and shrubs), 4th— summon natures ally IV (animals only), 5th—awaken, 6th— summon natures ally VI (animals only), 7th— liveoak, 8th— summon nature’s ally VIII (animals only), 9th— transport via plant.
Table: Forest Patriarch
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 1st favored enemy, aura, diminished casting, 2 0+1 — — — — — — — —
domain, favored strike, orisons, track
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Channel energy 1d6, wild empathy 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Favored terrain 3 1+1 0+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Hunter’s bond (animal) 3 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 3 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Channel energy 2d6 3 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 2nd favored enemy, woodland stride 3 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Swift tracker 3 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Evasion 3 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Channel energy 3d6 3 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Improved favored strike, quarry 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Treestride 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 3rd favored enemy 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Channel energy 4d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Improved evasion 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Channel energy 5d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 4th favored enemy 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Hunter’s strike 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1
Note: “+1” represents the domain spell slot
Primary Class: Druid.
Secondary Class: Ranger.
Alignment: Any neutral.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Land masters may select three ranger skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal druid class skills. The land master gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Land masters gain no more proficiency with weapons, armor, or shields.
Spellcasting: A land master casts divine spells, which are drawn from both the druid and ranger spell lists. Alignment restrictions still apply. She learns, prepares, and casts her spells as a druid of her level, but cannot exceed her base daily allotment of spells. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score.
Nature Bond (Ex): A land master must select the animal companion form of the nature bond class ability.
Wild Shape (Su): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name.
Favored Terrain: This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the land master selects a favored terrain at 5th level and every four levels thereafter. This ability replaces nature’s lure.
Bonded Shape (Su): Beginning at 7th level, the land master’s connection with the world around him is so strong that he can extend his wild shape ability to his animal companion. Once per day, when within one of his favored terrains, the land master can expend one use of his wild shape to wild shape his animal companion into another animal. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, and otherwise follows the same restrictions as the druid’s wild shape ability. At 13th level, this ability now functions as beast shape II, and may expend one use of wild shape to use this ability twice per day. At 19th level, this ability now functions as beast shape III, and may expend one use of wild shape to use this ability three times per day.
Camouflage Shape (Su): Starting at 9th level, when the land master uses the wild shape ability within any of her favored terrains, any animal that she turns into gains a camouflage pattern on its skin or fur, allowing her to blend in with her surroundings. The land master can then use the Stealth skill to hide in her favored terrain, even without cover or concealment. This replaces venom immunity.
Nature’s Fury (Su): At 13th level, the land master may choose any one of the following benefits each time she uses her wild shape ability. This replaces a thousand faces.
Ability Focus (Ex): The land master may choose one special attack of the creature he is wild shaping into. He adds +2 to the DCs for all saving throws against that special attack.
Eldritch Claws (Su): The land master gains the effects of the Eldritch Claws feat without having to meet any prerequisites.
Energy Attacks (Su): The land master's attacks become charged with energy. Pick one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All of the land master’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the chosen type on a successful hit.
Flyby Attack (Ex): If the creature that the land master is wild shaping into has a fly speed, he gains the benefits of the Flyby Attack feat, without having to meet any prerequisites.
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): The land master's natural armor bonus while wild shaping increases by 1.
Improved Natural Attack (Ex): The land master chooses one natural attack of the animal she is wild shaping into. That attack deals damage as if it were one size category larger.
Improved Beast Shape (Su): The land master may use the list of special abilities listed in Beast Shape IV (Instead of Beast Shape III) when determining what abilities he gains while in wild shape, including any elemental resistances and vulnerabilities. This does not allow him to wild shape into a Large or Tiny magical beast, and the wild shape ability still functions as Beast Shape III in all other ways.
Multiattack (Ex): The land master gains the benefits of the Multiattack feat, without having to meet any prerequisites.
Poison (Ex): The land master secretes toxic venom, gaining a poison attack. Pick one bite or sting attack. Whenever the selected attack hits, the target is poisoned. This poison has the following statistics: Type poison (injury); Save Fort negates; Frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; Effect 1d4 Str damage; Cure 1 save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the land master's level + his Constitution modifier. This poison can be used no more than once per round.
Tremorsense (Ex): The land master becomes attuned to vibrations in the ground, gaining tremorsense out to a range of 30 feet. This works like blindsense, but only if both the land master and the creature to be pinpointed are in contact with the ground.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that it functions only when the land master uses wild shape within one of her favored terrains. This ability replaces timeless body.
Land Mastery (Su): The land master attains a true melding with the world around her, allowing her to shape nature and herself in incredible ways. When within one of her favored terrains, she may use polymorph any object once per day as a spell-like ability, treating her land master level as her caster level. In addition, whenever she uses her wild shape ability while within one of her favored terrains, it does not count against her daily use limit for wild shape. This ability replaces wild shape (at will).
Table: Land Master
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Nature bond (animal only), nature sense, 3 1 — — — — — — — —
orisons, wild empathy
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Woodland stride 4 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Trackless step 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Wild shape (1/day) 4 3 2 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 1st favored terrain 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Wild shape (2/day) 4 3 3 2 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Bonded shape (1/day) 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Wild shape (3/day) 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 2nd favored terrain, Camouflage shape 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Wild shape (4/day) 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Nature’s fury 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Wild shape (5/day) 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 3rd favored terrain, Bonded shape (2/day) 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Wild shape (6/day) 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Hide in plain sight 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Wild shape (7/day) 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4th favored terrain 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Wild shape (8/day) 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Bonded shape (3/day) 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Land mastery 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
I know, LOTS of info. Let's just start at the top. Maybe mark this post - and those of the TempleDancer, Seersworn, and whenever the Aegis Lancer appears - in your favorites or wishlist for easier reference.
Divine Agent feedback:
Wow it's gotten so much cooler since the PDF. I know I'm late to that party. Anyway using the cleric as the base was brilliant. A few comments.
NEVER MIND I see it's at a different level. Ignore me.
2. Divine Strike says it replaces Master Strike, which clerics don't have.
3. Rogue talents say they replace "domain," which they don't, since A) "domain" isn't the name of a cleric ability and B) the divine agent still has a domain. You don't need to state a swap for the rogue talents, as there isn't a great way to do so. The loss of a domain is already covered when you describe the changes to the domains ability.
4. Stealth domain is cool!! One thing, though, maybe make HiPS only usable for a number of minutes per day equal to cleric level to have it be more in line with other domain abilities.
5. New rogue talents, domains (, and focused arcane schools): These should all be consolidated at the back of the PDF, or something, as multiple archetypes interact with the same new material.
6. A consideration... you're upping the combat ability of the cleric quite a bit. Well, not the toughness aspect of combat, but definitely the striking aspect. I might reduce spellcasting by an additional spell per level... I dunno.
Also Here's the Current version of the Guidelines:
MULTICLASS ARCHETYPES
Multiclassing is one of the great traditions of fantasy roleplaying games and has resulted in a multitude of archetypical combinations. From the deadly rogue/wizard to the synergistic ranger/cleric, multiclassing allows a character to focus on a primary class while taking another, granting them the ability to more effectively deal with challenges. However, through traditional multiclassing, a character must slow his level advancement and ability progression in one class to gain levels and their subsequent abilities in a new class.
Although many players find the idea of multiclassing appealing, some do not like the necessity of sacrificing the efficacy of certain abilities from their primary class to gain those of another class. In that spirit, by using multiclass archetypes, characters can retain primary features from their primary class without compromising their potency, while exchanging less desirable class features for those from a secondary class. The multiclassing character only gains abilities from their secondary class in part, and not at their full potency like they would if they had selected that class as their primary class. The following multiclass archetypes represent a variety of classic multiclass combinations.
GUIDELINES FOR MULTICLASS ARCHETYPES
Multiclass archetypes, like traditional multiclassing, are a blend of two distinct classes. The first class in which a character gains experience is considered that character’s favored class. When one multiclasses, the character selects another class in order to diversify his repertoire of skills and class abilities, and must adhere to certain established rules. The following terms and their descriptions provide the general guidelines used to create multiclass archetypes.
Primary Class: The primary class of a mutlticlass archetype is the class upon which the archetype is based, and supplies the base hit dice, skills, skill ranks, alignment restrictions, attack bonus, saves, and class abilities for the archetype. All aspects of the primary class are adhered to within the multiclass archetype, except those altered according to archetype’s secondary class. The primary class is also the same as the class section in which the archetype is listed, such as the Spellrager, which is described in the Barbarian section of this book. In traditional multiclassing, the primary class is the character’s favored class, as selected at first level.
Secondary Class: The secondary class of a multiclass archetype provides the alternate class abilities that replace those of the primary class. In traditional multiclassing, the secondary class is a character’s class he chooses to gain experience in addition to his favored class.
Alignment Restrictions: Multiclass archetypes must adhere to the alignment restrictions of the multiclass archetype, as they would for a core or base class. Although traditional rules restrict classes with conflicting alignments from being multiclassed (Barbarian/Paladin), such multiclass archetypes may follow the alignment restrictions of the primary or secondary class, or a new alignment restriction may be created specifically for the archetype.
Hit Dice: Multiclass archetypes retain the hit dice of the primary class. If the hit dice of the secondary class is two steps away (above or below) from of your primary class. It such cases, you gain new hit dice that is one step below or above that of your primary class. For example, a rogue/wizard would retain his d8 hit dice, while a fighter/wizard would receive d8 hit dice instead of the normal d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Multiclass archetypes use the skill set and ranks of its primary class. However, multiclass archetypes gain bonus skills and ranks at each level based upon their secondary class. Depending upon the discrepancy of skills and ranks between the primary and secondary classes, the archetype provides additional skills and ranks to uphold the multiclass flavor of the archetype. If the archetype’s secondary class gains ranks at each level that are the same as or 2 above that of the primary class, the archetype gains three bonus skills of the character’s choice as selected from the skill set of the secondary class, but gain no additional skill ranks at each level. If the secondary class gains ranks at each level that are 4 or more above that of the primary class, the archetype gains six bonus skills and 2 bonus ranks at each level. For example, a fighter/rogue archetype has fighter as its primary class and rogue as its secondary class. Thus, the fighter/rogue archetype uses the fighter skill list, but gains six bonus skills from the rogue’s skill list of the character’s choice, and gains a total of 4 ranks at each level. Subsequently, a bard/ranger would use the bard skill list, but only gains three bonus skills from the ranger skill list and uses the bard’s ranks at each level.
Base Attack Base: Multiclass archetypes use the base attack bonus of their primary class. If the secondary class has a base attack bonus two steps above that of the primary class, the archetype increases its base attack bonus by one step (1/2 BAB becomes 3/4 BAB, 3/4 BAB becomes full BAB). Thus, a sorcerer/fighter archetype would have a base attack bonus of 3/4 instead of 1/2.
Saving Throws: Multiclass archetypes gain a new set of saving throws, based upon the classes used to create them. If the two classes used to create a multiclass archetype have the same saves (Witch/Sorcerer), or if they overlap in whole or in part (Cleric/Paladin), the new archetype gains the original saves of the two classes. If the two classes each have one good save that does not overlap, the new archetype gains two good saves. If the two classes each have two good saves that do not completely overlap (Alchemist/Druid), the new archetype gains only two good saves as based upon the flavor of the archetype. Should either class have three good saves (Monk), retention of all three is dependant on the flavor of the archetype. Otherwise it only gains two good saves.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Multiclass archetypes use the weapon and armor proficiency of the primary class, but will often gain additional or alternate weapon proficiency acquired from the secondary class. Depending upon the secondary class, the archetype may also gain additional proficiency in armor, although the primary class restrictions will still apply, such as a druid’s restriction on using metal armors. Some archetypes may gain armor proficiency that hampers certain class abilities, such as with arcane spellcasters. In such cases, if the archetype flavor warrants it, the archetype will gain a class feature allowing it to use such abilities with armor in an incremental progression, similar to the armor progression of the Magus (see Ultimate Magic). The overall power of the multiclass archetype determines whether such allowances are warranted or not.
Spell Progression: Multiclass archetypes with a spellcasting primary class continue to cast spells normally in that class. If the archetype’s primary class has a spellcasting ability that is two or more steps below that of the secondary class, the archetype’s spellcasting ability increases by one step. If the primary class has no spellcasting, depending upon the archetype, it may gain a 1/2 caster spell progression or a unique progression table of its own. Additionally, the multiclass archetype may gain the Diminished Spellcasting ability, retaining the primary’s class’s spell progression, but reducing the number of spells cast at each spell level per day, or the number of spells known of each spell level, depending upon the multiclass archetype. Unless noted otherwise, an archetype has a caster level equal to its archetype level.
Class Features: Unless otherwise noted in a multiclass archetype's entry, it retains all the class features of its primary class. Usually some of these primary class features are swapped out for some class features from the secondary class, along with some all-new abilities meant to 'bridge the gap' between the classes. The rules for these trades are the same as the rules for using alternate class features in Paizo's archetype rules (the latest version of which is in Ultimate Combat, p. 24)*. By default, your "class level" for the purpose of determining the effects of any class feature granted by a multiclass archetype is equal to your levels in that multiclass archetype. Specific abilities may operate differently; these differences are explained in the ability's description.
Capstone Abilities: Multiclass archetypes typically retain the capstone ability of their primary class, and rarely gain the capstone ability of their secondary class. However, depending upon the flavor of the archetype, it may be required to “swap” the capstone ability of the primary class, or create a completely unique and flavorful one, much like normal class features (see above).
Favored Classes: There are two options pertaining to the rules of a character’s favored class, and are subject to GM approval. Upon taking a multiclass archetype, the archetype itself becomes the character’s favored class, and gains all benefits of a favored class each level. Alternately, upon taking a multiclass archetype, the archetype’s primary class is designated as the character’s favored class, and therefore gains the benefits of a favored class at every odd level of the multiclass archetype.
Class Archetypes: Multiclass archetypes may be used with the class archetypes presented in the Advance Player’s Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, or any similar Pathfinder RPG source books, based upon compatibility and GM approval.
Disclaimer: While individual multiclass archetypes may be compatible with normal archetypes as long as all required class features to be replaced are present (and replace those class features when they would normally occur within the multi-class archetype, not when specified by the base archetype), like any other archetype they do count as the base class for all purposes. You cannot take levels in Venom Blade and Wild Herbalist, for instance (as both are alchemist multiclass archetypes), though you could take levels in both Wild Herbalist and Bone Knight (making you effectively an alchemist/druid/cavalier/sorcerer). These classes stack and apply all appropriate abilities as any archetype or class level would, as per the multiclassing rules in the Core Rulebook (page 30). Remember that once the character has a level in a multiclass archetype they cannot take the classes within that archetype separately, nor any alternate class of those classes contained therein.
*Note: Although these guidelines have been presented here, creating a Multiclass Archetype is an art form, and requires a certain level of ingenuity, creativity, and understanding of the basic rules of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.
Forest Patriarch Feedback:
Forest patriarchs are the masters of the woodland realms, bestowed with divinely invested power to serve as a guardian and protector of forest life. A forest patriarch is a staunch opponent of everything that ravages or destroys woodland regions. Whether it is creatures, organizations, greater powers, the forest patriarch will hunt down and destroy them through whatever means necessary.
Primary Class: Cleric.
Secondary Class: Ranger.
Hit Dice: d8.Bonus Skills and Ranks: Forest patriarchs may select six ranger skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cleric class skills. The forest patriarch gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Forest patriarchs are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower).
Aura (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name.
Diminished Spellcasting: The forest patriarch chooses only one domain and gains one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if they are domain spells or if his Wisdom allows bonus spells of that level. He otherwise learns, prepares, and casts spells as a cleric of equal level.
Domain: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except the divine agent may select only one domain from among those belonging to his deity. In addition, the forest patriarch may select the Forest Domain (or any associated Terrain domain, dependent upon his alternate terrain) as his chosen domain, even if his deity does not normally provide access to it. A forest patriarch can also select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) as his choice. He otherwise follows all other parameters pertaining to cleric domains.
Favored Enemy (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the forest patriarch gains his first favored enemy at 1st level, and his subsequent favored enemies every six levels thereafter, to a maximum of his 4th favored enemy at 19th level. This ability and favored terrain replace channel energy 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 10d6.
Favored Strike: At 1st level, a forest patriarch uses his forest patriarch level in place of his base attack bonus when making attack rolls against a favored enemy. He also uses his forest patriarch level as his base attack bonus for the purpose of determining the number of attacks he can make in a full attack action when attacking a favored enemy. This ability replaces the first domain power.
Orisons: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name.
Track (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the first domain spell.
Channel Energy (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the amount of damage dealt or healed by the forest patriarch is equal to 1d6 points of damage at 2nd level plus 1d6 points of damage for every four divine agent levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of 5d6 at 18th level.
Wild Empathy (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the second domain spell.
Favored Terrain (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the forest patriarch can select only one terrain, and must select the forest terrain. At 8th level and every five levels thereafter, the skill bonus and initiative bonus in his favored terrain increases by +2. The forest terrain does not select additional favored terrains. This ability and favored terrain replace channel energy 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 10d6.
Hunter’s Bond (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except the forest patriarch must choose the animal bond. This ability replaces the second domain power.
Woodland Stride (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the third domain spell.
Swift Tracker (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the fourth domain spell.
Evasion (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the fifth domain spell.
Improved Favored Strike (Su): At 11th level, a forest patriarch can channel his divine energy when attacking a favored enemy. Before the forest patriarch makes an attack roll, he can choose to spend one use of his channel energy ability as a swift action. On a successful hit, it deals extra points of divine damage against all favored enemies equal to the damage dealt by his channel energy ability. The target can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the forest patriarch’s level + the forest patriarch’s Charisma modifier), as normal, to halve this additional damage. If the forest patriarch’s attack misses, the channel energy ability is still expended with no effect. This ability replaces spontaneous casting.
Quarry (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the sixth domain spell.
Treestride (Su): At 12th level, a forest patriarch can step into a tree, magically infusing himself with it. Once within a tree, the forest patriarch you can teleport from that particular tree to another living tree of the same kind, with a girth at least equal to the forest patriarch. The effect lasts until you exit the tree, or after a number of minutes have passed equal to the forest patriarch’s level, whichever comes first. Each transport is a full-round action. This ability otherwise functions like the treestride spell. The forest patriarch can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Wisdom modifier. This ability replaces the seventh domain spell.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name. This ability replaces the eighth domain spell.
Hunter’s Strike (Su): A forest patriarch of 20th level becomes a true hunter of those who wantonly cause destruction in his favored terrain. He can always move at full speed while using Survival to follow tracks without penalty, but only within in his favored terrain. He can, as a standard action, make a single attack against a favored enemy at his full attack bonus. If the attack hits, the target takes an amount of divine damage equal to twice the damage dealt by his channel energy ability. The target can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the forest patriarch’s level + the forest patriarch’s Charisma modifier), as normal, to halve this additional damage. A forest patriarch can use this ability once per day against each favored enemy type he possesses, but not against the same creature more than once in a 24-hour period. This ability replaces the ninth domain spell.
Alternate Terrain: Although the forest patriarch is based on the woodland terrain, he may select an alternate terrain at the time of character creation in which he gains the benefits of the favored terrain, woodland stride, and treestride abilities. This also applies to the Forest Domain and its related abilities, if the character chooses it as his domain. Once chosen it cannot be changed.
NEW DOMAIN
Clerics that have Animal or Plant as one of their deity’s domains can instead chose the new Forest domain. Forest patriarchs can select the Animal or Plant domain, or any of their subdomains in place of one of his deity’s domains. The following new domain compliments the forest patriarch multiclass archetype.Forest Domain
Granted Powers: You are a master of the forest terrain, a father of the trees, and able to travel through the landscape quickly and quietly. Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival are class skills.Forest Step (Su): You ignore the adverse movement effects of difficult terrain, and can even take 5-foot steps in difficult terrain while within a forest terrain.
Leaf Armor (Su): At 6th level, you can cause a layer of flexible, scale-like leaves to cover from your skin as a free action. While leaf armor is in effect, you gain a +1 natural armor bonus to your AC. This natural armor bonus increases by +1 at 9th level and every three cleric levels thereafter to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Domain Spells: 1st— speak with animals, 2nd— barkskin, 3rd— plant shape (as stone shape, but affects trees and shrubs), 4th— summon natures ally IV (animals only), 5th—awaken, 6th— summon natures ally VI (animals only), 7th— liveoak, 8th— summon nature’s ally VIII (animals only), 9th— transport via plant.
Table: Forest Patriarch
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 1st favored enemy, aura, diminished casting, 2 0+1 — — — — — — — —
domain, favored strike, orisons, track
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Channel energy 1d6, wild empathy 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Favored terrain 3 1+1 0+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Hunter’s bond (animal) 3 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 3 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Channel energy 2d6 3 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 2nd favored enemy, woodland stride 3 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Swift tracker 3 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Evasion 3 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Channel energy 3d6 3 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Improved favored strike, quarry 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Treestride 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 3rd favored enemy 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Channel energy 4d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Improved evasion 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Channel energy 5d6 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 4th favored enemy 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Hunter’s strike 3 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1
Note: “+1” represents the domain spell slot
Also.
Instead of having all this forest stuff, and then lots of disclaimers "but it can be any terrain!" why not just make it universal from the start.
Terrain Patriarch. Select a terrain (from favored terrain list) at 1st level, tune the domain to that terrain. (Then give them either Animal or Plant, their choice, as their other domain.) Woodland Stride would become Terrain Stride, and refer to the terrain patriarch's terrain. Etc. Etc. I think this would simplify a lot of things.
Land Master Feedback:
A land master learns to understand and connect with the land beneath her feet, allowing her to protect her home and that of her forest-dwelling patrons. She eventually becomes so in tune with her surroundings that she can begin to shape them with a thought.
Primary Class: Druid.
Secondary Class: Ranger.
Alignment: Any neutral.
Hit Dice: d8.Bonus Skills and Ranks: Land masters may select three ranger skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal druid class skills. The land master gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Land masters gain no more proficiency with weapons, armor, or shields.
Spellcasting: A land master casts divine spells, which are drawn from both the druid and ranger spell lists. Alignment restrictions still apply. She learns, prepares, and casts her spells as a druid of her level, but cannot exceed her base daily allotment of spells. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score.
Nature Bond (Ex): A land master must select the animal companion form of the nature bond class ability.
Wild Shape (Su): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name.
Favored Terrain: This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the land master selects a favored terrain at 5th level and every four levels thereafter. This ability replaces nature’s lure.
Bonded Shape (Su): Beginning at 7th level, the land master’s connection with the world around him is so strong that he can extend his wild shape ability to his animal companion. Once per day, when within one of his favored terrains, the land master can expend one use of his wild shape to wild shape his animal companion into another animal. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, and otherwise follows the same restrictions as the druid’s wild shape ability. At 13th level, this ability now functions as beast shape II, and may expend one use of wild shape to use this ability twice per day. At 19th level, this ability now functions as beast shape III, and may expend one use of wild shape to use this ability three times per day.
Camouflage Shape (Su): Starting at 9th level, when the land master uses the wild shape ability within any of her favored terrains, any animal that she turns into gains a camouflage pattern on its skin or fur, allowing her to blend in with her surroundings. The land master can then use the Stealth skill to hide in her favored terrain, even without cover or concealment. This replaces venom immunity.
Nature’s Fury (Su): At 13th level, the land master may choose any one of the following benefits each time she uses her wild shape ability. This replaces a thousand faces.
Ability Focus (Ex): The land master may choose one special attack of the creature he is wild shaping into. He adds +2 to the DCs for all saving throws against that special attack.
Eldritch Claws (Su): The land master gains the effects of the Eldritch Claws feat without having to meet any prerequisites.
Energy Attacks (Su): The land master's attacks become charged with energy. Pick one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All of the land master’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the chosen type on a successful hit.
Flyby Attack (Ex): If the creature that the land master is wild shaping into has a fly speed, he gains the benefits of the Flyby Attack feat, without having to meet any prerequisites.
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): The land master's natural armor bonus while wild shaping increases by 1.
Improved Natural Attack (Ex): The land master chooses one natural attack of the animal she is wild shaping into. That attack deals damage as if it were one size category larger.
Improved Beast Shape (Su): The land master may use the list of special abilities listed in Beast Shape IV (Instead of Beast Shape III) when determining what abilities he gains while in wild shape, including any elemental resistances and vulnerabilities. This does not allow him to wild shape into a Large or Tiny magical beast, and the wild shape ability still functions as Beast Shape III in all other ways.
Multiattack (Ex): The land master gains the benefits of the Multiattack feat, without having to meet any prerequisites.
Poison (Ex): The land master secretes toxic venom, gaining a poison attack. Pick one bite or sting attack. Whenever the selected attack hits, the target is poisoned. This poison has the following statistics: Type poison (injury); Save Fort negates; Frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; Effect 1d4 Str damage; Cure 1 save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the land master's level + his Constitution modifier. This poison can be used no more than once per round.
Tremorsense (Ex): The land master becomes attuned to vibrations in the ground, gaining tremorsense out to a range of 30 feet. This works like blindsense, but only if both the land master and the creature to be pinpointed are in contact with the ground.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that it functions only when the land master uses wild shape within one of her favored terrains. This ability replaces timeless body.
Land Mastery (Su): The land master attains a true melding with the world around her, allowing her to shape nature and herself in incredible ways. When within one of her favored terrains, she may use polymorph any object once per day as a spell-like ability, treating her land master level as her caster level. In addition, whenever she uses her wild shape ability while within one of her favored terrains, it does not count against her daily use limit for wild shape. This ability replaces wild shape (at will).
Table: Land Master
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Nature bond (animal only), nature sense, 3 1 — — — — — — — —
orisons, wild empathy
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Woodland stride 4 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Trackless step 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Wild shape (1/day) 4 3 2 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 1st favored terrain 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Wild shape (2/day) 4 3 3 2 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Bonded shape (1/day) 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Wild shape (3/day) 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 2nd favored terrain, Camouflage shape 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Wild shape (4/day) 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Nature’s fury 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Wild shape (5/day) 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 3rd favored terrain, Bonded shape (2/day) 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Wild shape (6/day) 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Hide in plain sight 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Wild shape (7/day) 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4th favored terrain 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Wild shape (8/day) 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Bonded shape (3/day) 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Land mastery 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
Basically you've got full druid spellcasting with ranger spells as an added benefit, and a really cheap trade for favored terrain. Overall it's solid but it's too strong. I'd rebalance some things.
Okay... now, I've put some work and thought into this. It still needs polishing, but I'm happy with presenting this version.
You might note it's similar to my very first quick-and-dirty write up, but with some important fixes and a few notable alterations. I consider this a good thing! >:D And I've also got an idea or two still on the backburner if you guys like this lil' spell-smasher but think he needs some changes.
Cavalier/Abjurer
Concept: A Cavalier who can create mystical wards and pierce spells.
Special Notes: The Aegis Lancer is an unusual blend, and does not have the usual spellcasting expected of a Wizard. In exchange, however, he gains numerous protective abilities and spell-like effects.
-- If so wished, moving the Mount to fourth level (acting as though Aegis Lancer level -3) and Bonus feats abilities would allow the Aegis Lancer to have a D10 hit die, and the BAB to go with it. This decision should be discussed by player and GM beforehand.
HD: D8
Saves: Good Fort, Poor Ref, Good Will
Skills: 4+Int Mod. Add three Wizard.
Level: Special:
1 Challenge 1/day, Mount, Order, Sage Arcana
2 Order Ability
3 Bulwark (AC)
4
5 Challenge 2/day
6 Bonus Feat
7 Bulwark (Elemental)
8 Order Ability
9 Improved Bulwark, Challenge 3/day
10
11 Bulwark (Saving Throw)
12 Bonus Feat
13 Challenge 4/day
14
15 Greater Bulwark, Bulwark (Temporary HP)
16
17 Challenge 5/day
18 Bonus Feat
19 Bulwark (Double Up)
20
Elemental Warder (Immunity)
Sage Arcana: An Aegis Lancer may select either a bonded object or mystical studies. All spell-like abilities granted have a caster level equal to the Aegis Lancer's class level.
-- Bonded item: As Wizard's Bonded Item arcane bond, but the Aegis Lancer may only select his lance or shield.
--At sixth level, he may cast Dispel Magic (as a spell-like ability) 3/day.
--At twelveth level, he gains the ability to cast Greater Magic Weapon 3/day.
--At eighteenth level, he may cast Disjunction 1/day.
-- Mystic Studies: The Aegis Lancer instead turns to magical studies. While no true spellcaster, this dabbling allows him to use magical wands, staves, and scrolls as a Wizard with a caster level equal to 3/4 his own level. He takes a -4 penalty on Spellcraft checks related to Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment, and Illusion.
--At sixth, He also gains the ability to cast Magic Circle (Spell-like ability) against the alignment of his choice 3/day. Once selected, this choice cannot be changed unless his alignment has also changed.
--At twelveth level, he gains the ability to cast Minor Globe of Invulnerability (Spell-like) 2/day.
--At Eighteenth level, he gains spell resistance 25. He may raise or lower this resistance as a Swift action.
Bulwark: At third level, the Aegis Lancer can defend his allies through a mystical ward. This effect is a 10-foot radius field of protective magic centered on you, and is usable a number of times per day equal to 3+your intelligence modifier. It lasts for 1 round per 2 Cavalier levels you possess.
-- At Third Level, the Bulwark grants a Deflection bonus to AC equal to the Aegis Warder's Intelligence Modifier.
-- At 7th level, the Bulwark grants Resistance equal to the Aegis Lancer's Intelligence Modifier against Acid, Cold, Fire, and Electricity.
-- At 11th level, the Bulwark grants a bonus to all saving throws equal to his Intelligence Modifier for the allies under it's influence.
-- At 15th level, the Bulwark grants each ally under it's effect a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to 2+The Aegis Lancer's Intelligence Modifier. These Temporary hit points are recovered to the maximum the Aegis Lancer can grant at the beginning of each round.
-- At 19th level, the Aegis Lancer has mastered this mighty ward; whenever he activates this ability, he may select one benefit it grants. Double this benefit.
Improved Bulwark: The Aegis Lancer's Bulwark now has a 30ft radius.
Bonus Feat: The Aegis Lancer may select either a Teamwork Feat or a feat from the following list: Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Distruptive, or Magical Aptitude.
-- Special: The Aegis Lancer may also select Spellbreaker if he is at least 12th level and has the Distruptive feat.
Greater Bulwark: The Aegis Lancer's Bulwark now has a 60ft radius.
Elemental Warder- At 20th level, the Aegis Lancer becomes immune to one type of elemental damage. He may change which type by spending one hour in deep meditation.
Order: The Aegis Lancer must select one of the following orders.
-- The Order of the Scepter
-- The Order of the Scythe
New Cavalier Orders:
An order of Cavaliers who are bound to protect magi of all sorts.
Edicts: The Cavalier must guide young magi on their path to power. He must ensure that magic is used responsibly. He must strive to guide magi, and spend at minimum one week out of each year training an apprentice mage or Aegis Lancer.
Challenge: Whenever the Cavalier issues a challenge, he recieves a +1 morale bonus on attacks of opportunity against that target. This increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.
Skills: Add Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft to class skills. He gains a +1 bonus to identify spells with Spellcraft.
Order Abilities:
Defender of the Apprentice- Guiding a young mage often means protecting them from others. At 2nd level, the cavalier may bind himself to one ally, as though with the spell Shield Other. The Cavalier may do this for a number of round each day equal to his Cavalier level, as a swift action with a range of 60 feet.
Eldritch Guidance- The Cavalier may 'guide' his allies spells toward him. Starting at 8th level, as a swift action he may select one spellcaster within 60ft. This caster may cast touch spells upon the Cavalier without being adjacent until the cavalier's next turn. The Cavalier may use this ability a number of times per day equal to half his level.
Spell Shielding: The Order of The Scepter recognizes just how deadly potent magic throughout the world can be, both to the cavalier's charge and himself. As such, they teach how to reflect these spells back at the caster. Twice per day at 15th level, the cavalier may spend a full-round action to deflect a number of spells cast at him during that round equal to 1d6 + his Int modifier. This ability functions as the spell turning spell. If he currently has defender of the apprentice in effect, he may choose to deflect spells cast upon that target instead.
An order of Cavaliers who wish to erradicate dark magics.
Edicts: The cavalier must punish all who would use magic to rule in tyranny. He must ensure that such dark magic ceases to exist. He must strive to rid the world of evil magic.
Challenge: Whenever the Cavalier issues a challenge, he recieves a +1 Morale bonus to attack and damage if the target is a spellcaster. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.
Skills: Add Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft to class skills. He gains a +1 bonus to identify spells with Spellcraft.
Order Abilities:
Arcane Piercing- At second level, whenever the Cavalier strikes a spellcaster, they must succeed on a will save (DC 10+(Half Cavalier level)+Int modifier) or suffer a -1 penalty to caster level for 1d4 rounds. This penalty increases to -2 at 9th level, and -3 at 16th.
Purify the Spirit- At eight level, the Cavalier may choose to make a second saving throw against any ongoing spell effect. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3+ his int modifier.
Eldritch Suppression: At 15th level, the cavalier may begin to suppress spells nearby as a full-round action. Once he begins, he must track the number of rounds he has used this ability. As an immediate action during this time, he may attempt to counter any spell he identifies with a spell level equal to or less than the number of rounds this ability has been in effect. This ability functions as dispel magic, using the cavalier's level as his caster level. He may use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to his cavalier level.
Also, Mutagenic Brute and Divine Duelist are on the list for this weekend's playtest, as well as a third I can't reveal without spoiling an NPC :P
Purplefixer, if you're joining in on Saturday, I need to know by tomorrow night.
Seersworn Feedback
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Oracle.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The seersworn may select three oracle skills to her class skills in addition to her normal witch class skills. The seersworn gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 2 + Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Seersworns are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a seersworn’s gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.Spellcasting: A seerworn casts spells as a witch and draws her spells from the witch spell list. Her caster level is equal to her seersworn level. The seersworn gains bonus spells for a high Intelligence score.
Cantrips: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except that she chooses a hex as shown on Table: seersworn.
Mystery: This is exactly like the oracle ability of the same name, except that the seersworn adds her mystery spells to her spell list at the listed levels, just as she does her Patron spells. A seersworns mystery should be compatible with her patron - for example Bones/Plague, Battle/Strength, Nature/Animals.
Oracle’s Curse (Ex): This is exactly like the oracle’s ability of the same name.
Patron Spells: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Revelations: This is exactly like the Oracle ability of the same name, except the seersworn chooses a revelation at 1st level, and again at 6th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability replaces Hex at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.
Witch’s Familiar: The seersworn's familiar is her direct connection to the powers who provide her more otherworldly visions and abilities, and is able to give her direct advice and counsel. This functions exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name with the following additions. *The familiar gains an intelligence score of 8 and learns one language that only the seersworn can understand. At 6th level, and every 6 levels past that, the familiar gains a point of Intelligence and learns another language with which to communicate with the Seersworn's allies.
*If the familiar is unconscious, confused, or slain otherwise incapacitated, the seersworn loses her access to revelations and to her mystery spells until it is restored or replaced. This new familiar begins with the same intelligence as its' predecessor.
*The seersworn must make a concentration check to cast mystery spells if the familiar is more than 5' away from her.Major Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Grand Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except the seersworn selects a grand hex at 20th level.
Modified Hex: Cackle becomes Seersworn's Cry: The Seersworn's Cry is a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex or misfortune hex OR any revelation that has a duration expressed in rounds, has the duration of that hex or revelation extended by 1 round.
Seersworn's Cry (Su): When the seersworn uses the cackle hex, it also extends the duration of any revelation with a duration expressed in rounds affecting a creature within 30 feet.
And then I'd just tack that on right below the Hex ability entry.
New Hex:
Seersworn's Blight: This attack can be made as a free action, at a range of 30 feet. The target of this hex receives the negative effects of the seersworn's oracle's curse ability, as if that target was a 1st level oracle with that curse.New Major Hex:
Greater Seersworn's Blight : As Seersworn's Blight, but affects one extra victim per three seersworn levels + int modifier at a range of 30 feet.New Grand Hex:
Seersworn's Malevolence: As Seersworn's Blight, but affects all within earshot.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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...Land Master Feedback:
** spoiler omitted **
Favored Terrain: This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the land master selects a favored terrain at 5th level and every four levels thereafter. This ability replaces resist nature’s lure and Trackless Step.
^Better? :-D
Bonded Shape (Su): Beginning at 7th level, the land master’s connection with the world around him is so strong that he can extend his wild shape ability to his animal companion. Once per day, when within one of his favored terrains, the land master can expend one use of his wild shape to wild shape his animal companion into another animal. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, and otherwise follows the same restrictions as the druid’s wild shape ability. At 13th level, this ability now functions as beast shape II, and may expend one use of wild shape to use this ability twice per day. At 19th level, this ability now functions as beast shape III, and may expend one use of wild shape to use this ability three times per day.
^Why do you think this one's broken? It's really just letting the bonded animal turn into something that, at that level, the Druid can probably summon anyway. The advantage here is that you could turn your bonded cougar into an eagle and fly across a chasm, or turn your bonded turtle into a mountain lion so he could climb a tree. We could say that they don't get the associated ability bonuses, maybe?
Nature’s Fury (Su): At 13th level, the land master may choose any one of the following benefits each time she uses her wild shape ability. This replaces a thousand faces.
^I think this one is still okay, personally. It's basically replacing a thousand faces for a feat that can be switched out, which I think is pretty strong.
Divine Agent feedback:
Wow it's gotten so much cooler since the PDF. I know I'm late to that party. Anyway using the cleric as the base was brilliant. A few comments.
0) Yes it has. I've taken Stealth Mage as the new exemplar for what these archetypes need to be. Much like you used the Bone Knight as your exemplar.
1. You don't need to have a section on channel energy. It's unaltered, save for the swaps (described under sneak attack), and as such it's fine on its own. (Fighter archetypes don't say "Weapon Training: This functions as normal, but is only received at levels x and y," for instance.)[/ooc] NEVER MIND I see it's at a different level. Ignore me.
Heh, heh, ...
Done!
Done!
Done!
I planned on doing that. the section will have new domains, schools, mysteries, etc.
Mmmmm...no. I like how he feels, plus he can only do one or the other.
Land Master Feedback:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: ...Does this mean land masters are proficient with NOTHING?
How about this?
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Land masters gain exactly the same weapon and armor proficiency as a druid, and gains proficiency with the longbow and shortbow (and their composite counterparts), and a single one-handed or light martial weapon of their choice. Land masters must also adhere to the druid’s armor restrictions as presented in the druid class entry.
I've removed the entries that don't need to be there.
As cartmanbeck said.
Why? essentially, as cartmanbeck said, he can "wild shape" his animal companion into a different animal, and it costs him one of his own wild shape uses per day. ITs shared ability between a master and his animal companion.
Perhaps we can add this (bolded) to it for more flavor?
Bonded Shape (Su): Beginning at 7th level, the land master’s connection with the world around him is so strong that he can extend his wild shape ability to his animal companion. Once per day, when within one of his favored terrains, the land master can expend one use of his wild shape to wild shape his animal companion into another animal native to that terrian. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, and otherwise follows the same restrictions as the druid’s wild shape ability. At 13th level, this ability now functions as beast shape II, and may expend one use of wild shape to use this ability twice per day. At 19th level, this ability now functions as beast shape III, and may expend one use of wild shape to use this ability three times per day.
What would you suggest to balance and interject it with? She has a small list of various "enhancements" that can be added to the land master. ...OK, thoughts coming to me.
How about adding in some unique abilities oriented to "nature" and "terrains"; things like energy resistances based on natural elements (water=cold; earth=acid; lighting=electricity; volcanoes=fire; wind=sonic), or terrain related abilities like stoneskin, fly, etc.?
Or maybe something like this? Similar to the eidolon’s evolutions but only affect the wild shape form.
Nature’s Fury (Su): At 13th level, and every two levels thereafter, the land master may choose one of the following transformations. These transformations only affects the land master while in her while shape animal form. Once a transformation is chosen, it cannot be changed. This replaces a thousand faces.
Ability Focus (Ex): The land master may choose one special attack of the creature he is wild shaping into. He adds +2 to the DCs for all saving throws against that special attack. This transformation can be selected more than once, but each time it applies to a different special attack.
Ability Increase (Ex): The wild shape form grows larger muscles, gains greater endurance, or gains faster reflexes. Increase one of the land master’s wild shape form’s physical ability scores by +2. This transform can be selected more than once. It can only be applied once to an individual ability score.
Eldritch Claws (Su): The wild shape form gains the effects of the Eldritch Claws feat without having to meet any prerequisites.
Energy Attacks (Su): The wild shape form’s attacks become charged with energy. Pick one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All of the wild shape form’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the chosen type on a successful hit.
Flyby Attack (Ex): If the wild shape form has a fly speed, she gains the benefits of the Flyby Attack feat, without having to meet any prerequisites.Gore (Ex): The wild shape form gains a gore attack. This attack is a primary attack. The gore deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). The land master must assume a wild shape form with horns to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Grab (Ex): The wild shape form becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, or tail slap attacks. Whenever the wild shape form makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the wild shape form grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the wild shape form or smaller. The wild shape form also receives a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple.
Improved Beast Shape (Su): The land master may use the list of special abilities listed in beast shape IV (Instead of beast shape III) when determining what abilities she gains while in wild shape, including any elemental resistances and vulnerabilities. This does not allow her to wild shape into a Large or Tiny magical beast, and the wild shape ability still functions as beast shape III in all other ways.
Improved Damage (Ex): One of the wild shape form’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This transformation can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time a land master selects this transformation, it applies to a different natural attack.
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): The wild shape form’s hide grows thicker and tougher fur, scales, or bony plates, giving her a +2 bonus to her natural armor. This transformation can be taken once at 13th level and every three levels thereafter.
Magic Attacks (Su): The wild shape form become infused with magic, allowing it to treat all of its natural attacks as if they were magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. If the land master is 16th level, all of her wild shape form’s natural attacks are treated as her alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Multiattack (Ex): The wild shape form gains the benefits of the Multiattack feat, without having to meet any prerequisites.
Poison (Ex): The wild shape form secretes toxic venom, gaining a poison attack. Pick one bite or sting attack. Whenever the selected attack hits, the target is poisoned. Land master poison–type poison (injury); save Fort negates; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d4 Str damage; cure 1 save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the land master's level + his Constitution modifier. This poison can be used no more than once per round. The land master must assume a wild shape form with a bite or sting attack to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Pounce (Ex): The wild shape form gains quick reflexes, allowing her to make a full attack after a charge. The land master must assume a quadruped wild shape form to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Pull (Ex): The wild shape form gains the ability to pull creatures closer with a successful attack. Select one type of natural attack. Whenever the wild shape form makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the target of the attack is pulled 5 feet closer to the land master’s wild shape form. This ability only works on creatures of a size equal to or smaller than the wild shape form. Creatures pulled in this way do not provoke attacks of opportunity. This transformation can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time a land master selects this transformation, it applies to a different natural attack. The land master must assume a wild shape form with a reach of 10 feet or more to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Rake (Ex): The wild shape form grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The wild shape form receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The land master must assume a quadruped wild shape form to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Reach (Ex): The wild shape form’s attacks are capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The wild shape form’s reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.Rend (Ex): The wild shape form learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the wild shape form makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the land wild shape form’s Strength modifier. The land master must assume a wild shape form that has claws to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Resistance (Ex): The wild shape form takes on a resiliency to one particular energy type, which is usually reflected in its physical body (ashen hide for fire, icy breath for cold, and so on). Pick one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). The wild shape form gains resist 5 against that energy type. This transformation can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time the land master selects this transformation, it applies to a different energy type.
Tail Slap (Ex): The wild shape form can use its tail to bash nearby foes, granting it a tail slap attack. This attack is a secondary attack. The tail slap deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). The land master must assume a wild shape form with the appropriate tail type to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Trample (Ex): The wild shape form gains the ability to crush its foes underfoot, gaining the trample ability. As a full-round action, the wild shape form can overrun any creature that is at least one size smaller than itself. This works like the overrun combat maneuver, but the wild shape form does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. The creatures take 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge), plus 1-1/2 times the wild shape form’s Strength modifier. Targets of the trample can make attacks of opportunity at a –4 penalty. If a target forgoes the attack of opportunity, it can make a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the wild shape form’s HD + the wild shape form’s Strength modifier. A trampling wild shape form can only deal trampling damage to a creature once per round. The land master must assume a quadruped wild shape form to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Tremorsense (Ex): The wild shape form becomes attuned to vibrations in the ground, gaining tremorsense out to a range of 30 feet. This works like blindsense, but only if both the wild shape form and the creature to be pinpointed are in contact with the ground.Trip (Ex): The wild shape form becomes adept at knocking foes to the ground with its bite, granting it a trip attack. Whenever the wild shape form makes a successful bite attack of the selected type, she can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the target is knocked prone. If the check fails, the wild shape form is not tripped in return. This ability only works on creatures of a size equal to or smaller than the wild shape form. The land master must assume a wild shape form that has a bite to gain the benefits of this transformation.
Wing Buffet (Ex): The wild shape form learns to use its wings to batter foes, granting it two wing buffet attacks. These attacks are secondary attacks. The wing buffets deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The land master must assume a wild shape form with wings to gain the benefits of this transformation.*This allows the land master to improve its wild shape forms, as he sacales up. MIGHT be easier to just give a list of usable eidolon evolutions (only 1 pont and 2 point evolutions), with the following disclaimer?
"The land master must assume a wild shape form with the appropriate form prerequisites to gain the benefits of certain transformations."
I think the simplest rebalance would be to give it the Diminished Spellcasting feature.
Like I said, the nature's fury ability isn't broken, it's just amplifying combat ability at the expense of face ability. In some campaigns (with more roleplaying), it'll make the druid weaker, in others (most, which are more combat-focused), it'll make it much stronger by comparison. I don't think you should tweak the ability in terms of strength - it was very nice - but I do think you should replace something else for it.
As for the bonded shaping... the thing that I"m worried about is the fact that wild shape lasts a LONG TIME. One of the things that balances it is that you can only have one in effect at a time. At level 10, you essentially have day-long buffing on both yourself and your animal companion. Seems a bit strong. Maybe make it work EXACTLY like beast shape, lasting minutes? I dunno.
Swapping trackless step along with resist nature's lure for the favored terrain is probably fine.
Yeah I would probably just diminish casting.
Divine Agent comments & fixes - great.
Hope my feedback's helpful
You're buffing Wild Shape?
YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. Seriously, Wild Shape is, has been, will always be OP. There's a reason the Elder Sage has less spells than a regular Witch despite being based on two different full-casting classes, and that's WITH a d6 Hit Die, as well.
That's my two cents there.
Anyway, looking at possible blends right now. Anyone have any archetype requests I could tackle?
@Raiderrpg ...
As far as my attention goes:
1) Feedback on the guidelines (once this is done, everything can move forward)
2) Let's get the current Archetypes on the thread out of the way before new ones.That should include:
Seersworn (almost complete, posted above)
Temple Dancer (just posted above)
Aegis Lancer (just need the next post)
Forest Patriarch (maybe additional feedback but seems good)
Land Master (maybe additional feedback but seems good)
Divine Agent (should be done)
I can only do so much in one day =)
I'll take a look soon I promise!
I was referring to Elghinn :P
But thanks! Don't mean to rush you, Flak xP
I was referring to Elghinn :P
But thanks! Don't mean to rush you, Flak xP
Ditto to what Flak said... and the only reason I'm up right now is because I have a crying, screaming sick kids..:(
I'll take a look tomorrow.
Also, just a warning, I will be gone on vacation for the net 5-6 days, so you may or may not hear from me during that time. I hope to pop in once or twice. G'night!
@re Aegis Lancer I like the reduced spell use and the powers presented. I don't have any constructive crunch criticisms other than the option to move mount to 4th level and bonus feats isn't clear to me. Do you mean move mount AND bonus feats to 4th level, or move mount to 4th level TO gain bonus feats and d10 HD? btw - seeing as I have never played a cavalier (even in 1st Ed Unearthed Arcana) you can be assured that seeing the Aegis Lancer almost makes me want to spike some arcane types and ride them into the ground!
@re: Forest Patriarch
instead of having all this forest stuff, and then lots of disclaimers "but it can be any terrain!" why not just make it universal from the start.Terrain Patriarch. Select a terrain (from favored terrain list) at 1st level, tune the domain to that terrain. (Then give them either Animal or Plant, their choice, as their other domain.) Woodland Stride would become Terrain Stride, and refer to the terrain patriarch's terrain. Etc. Etc. I think this would simplify a lot of things.
+1. I agree. I'm sure I posted something similar, but may have just thought I did.
@re Land Master Nice collaborative discussions people! I think eidolon-like "evolutions" are a great way to go! I have always thought Animal Companions were OP but as a Druid lover I was not going to complain. Here I think you are on the right track offering many options - which as purplefixer wrote, is not always good. However, it's not always bad either. :P I'll wait for more dust to settle, but basically it looks good to me.
@re Seersworn Here's the latest seersworn including comments/changes from Flak in bold during description and purplefixer comments/changes afterwards. Just need some final touch ups. Please check it out and we can finalise it.
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Oracle.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The seersworn may select three oracle skills to her class skills in addition to her normal witch class skills. The seersworn gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 2 + Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Seersworns are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a seersworn’s gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Spellcasting: A seerworn casts spells as a witch and draws her spells from the witch spell list. Her caster level is equal to her seersworn level. The seersworn gains bonus spells for a high Intelligence score.
Cantrips: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name.
Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except that she chooses a hex as shown on Table: seersworn. (flak):I know this was suggested earlier but why not just let the seersworn take a revelation anytime she could take a hex? (and use full hex progression)
Mystery: This is exactly like the oracle ability of the same name, except that the seersworn adds her mystery spells to her spell list at the listed levels, just as she does her Patron spells. A seersworns mystery should be compatible with her patron - for example Bones/Plague, Battle/Strength, Nature/Animals. (flak) *"A seersworn's mystery"
Oracle’s Curse (Ex): This is exactly like the oracle’s ability of the same name.
Patron Spells: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name. (flak)You don't need to mention it if it's unchanged.
Revelations: This is exactly like the Oracle ability of the same name, except the seersworn chooses a revelation at 1st level, and again at 6th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability replaces Hex at 6th, 12th, and 18th level. (flak) I know this was suggested earlier but why not just let the seersworn take a revelation anytime she could take a hex?
Witch’s Familiar: The seersworn's familiar is her direct connection to the powers who provide her more otherworldly visions and abilities, and is able to give her direct advice and counsel. This functions exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name with the following additions. *The familiar gains an intelligence score of 8 and learns one language that only the seersworn can understand. At 6th level, and every 6 levels past that, the familiar gains a point of Intelligence and learns another language with which to communicate with the Seersworn's allies.
*If the familiar is unconscious, confused, or slain otherwise incapacitated, the seersworn loses her access to revelations and to her mystery spells until it is restored or replaced. This new familiar begins with the same intelligence as its' predecessor.
*The seersworn must make a concentration check to cast mystery spells if the familiar is more than 5' away from her.
Major Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name. (flak) If you aren't changing anything, don't mention it.
Grand Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except the seersworn selects a grand hex at 20th level.
Modified Hex: Cackle becomes Seersworn's Cry: The Seersworn's Cry is a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex or misfortune hex OR any revelation that has a duration expressed in rounds, has the duration of that hex or revelation extended by 1 round. (flak) I'd reword this as such:
Seersworn's Cry (Su): When the seersworn uses the cackle hex, it also extends the duration of any revelation with a duration expressed in rounds affecting a creature within 30 feet.
And then I'd just tack that on right below the Hex ability entry.
New Hex:
Seersworn's Blight: This attack can be made as a free action, at a range of 30 feet. The target of this hex receives the negative effects of the seersworn's oracle's curse ability, as if that target was a 1st level oracle with that curse. (flak) There's an oracle spell that does this. Why not just give it to them as a spellhex? (See the Oracle's Burden spell and Spell Hex feat for reference. Always use existent methods if possible!)
New Major Hex:
Greater Seersworn's Blight : As Seersworn's Blight, but affects one extra victim per three seersworn levels + int modifier at a range of 30 feet. (flak) Nice idea, but base it on the reformed seersworn's blight I described above.
New Grand Hex:
Seersworn's Malevolence: As Seersworn's Blight, but affects all within earshot. (flak) See above. This is very cool.
New Mystery: The following Seersworn Mystery may be chosen by a seersworn :
Mystery:
Seersworn
Deities: Any
Class Skills: A seersworn with the seersworn mystery adds Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy and Sense motive to her list of class skills.
Bonus Spells: hypnotic pattern (2nd), seeming (4th), invisibility purge (6th), sending (8th), wandering star motes (10th), owl's wisdom, mass (12th), sequester (14th), scintillating pattern(16th), euphoric tranquility (18th), wall of suppression(20th)
Revelations: A seersworn with the seersworn mystery may choose from the following revelations.
Aura of Insight (Su): As a standard action, you can give a small amount of your insight to your allies. The aura affects one ally plus one additional ally for every three seersworn levels you possess, who must all be within 30 feet of you. Affected allies gain a +2 insight bonus on attack rolls, AC, combat maneuver defense, and skill checks for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. The seersworn may use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Wis modifier.
Trance of Clarity (Su): This trance grants the seersworn and her familiar a +4 bonus on all saving throws made against mind-affecting effects and immunity to confusion. This bonus lasts for 1 minute. If the familiar fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect during this period, it loses its immunity to confusion and is immediately confused for one round. While the familiar is confused, the seersworn may not use her revelations or mystery Spells. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wis modifier.
Second Sight (Ex): You gain a racial bonus on Perception checks equal to 1/2 your seersworn level (minimum +1). In addition, if you can act during a surprise round, you receive a +2 racial bonus on your Initiative check.
Precognitive Trance (Su): This trance can be entered as a free action, and lasts for 1 hour/level. Your insight into the future grants you an advantage in combat. At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, you gain a +1 insight bonus on initiative checks.
Spirit Trance (Su): As a standard action, you can ask one question of a dead creature as if using speak with dead. The dead creature you are questioning does not gain a Will saving throw if your alignments are different. You can use this ability for a number of times per day equal to your seersworn level.
Table: Seersworn
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 01st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Cantrips, hex, mystery, oracle’s curse, 3 1 — — — — — — — — patron spells, revelation, witch’s familiar
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Hex 4 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Hex 4 3 2 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Hex 4 3 3 2 — — — — — —
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Revelation 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Hex, major hex 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Hex 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — —
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Revelation 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — —
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Revelation 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Hex, grand hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
Now that I'm taking a look at the seersworn mystery and it's revelations, it looks a little OP... but then I did a point-by-point comparison and it's not. @.@ Oracles get COOL POWERS!
*Also, I might call it 'Insight' rather than seersworn.
*aura of insight: combat maneuver defense is redundant, any insight bonus to AC applies to CMD.
*Precognitive trance has a limited duration, but can be renewed infinitely? Limit #/day on it.
Other than these, and a few minor editing errors which Elghinn will catch, this looks good! [/QUOTE}I'm not opposed to calling the Seersworn's mystery Insight. I was merely trying to make it unique and exclusive to the Seersworn - it only has five revelations after all.
- okay - cut CMD out of Aura of insight
- As for precognitive trance - I intended it to be used much like the old 3.5 warlock abilities that lasted for 24hrs (e.g.all day) Is this bonus to initiative over the top? +2 at level seven, +3 at 11, +4 at 15 and +5 at 19. Maybe hours is an untenable or rather hard to keep track of unit. I'm all for x/day for x/rounds. [/QUOTE}I agree with flak re Seersworn's Cry, and flak's minor alteration to style presentation. As for swapping revelations for hexes... It does seem simplest and more along lines of what other MC archetypes do - trading this for that.....
SO: *change Aura of insight cutting out CMD reference. Agree?
*how to proceed with precognitive trance - how about 2/day for 3/rounds + int modifier, with 1 extra use/day every 5 levels? Ideas?
* I want to keep the Mystery name of Seersworn, keeps it unique to the MC. See next point for why
*Yes Seersworn's Cry should affect just like Oracle's burden. And Spell Hex feat is good. How to proceed: a) Give them oracle's burden as a spell, give them spell hex as a bonus feat? OR
b) How about new spell: Seersworn's Burden - exactly as Oracle's Burden, give it to them at second level in Seersworn Mystery, instead of hypnotic pattern and put in a clause in Seersworn's Curse spell to choose Spell Hex as a feat? I still like advanced versions of Seersworn's Cry, especially the final "all within earshot" version.Apart from those four points and a review of the revelations for hex discussion, this seems almost done. Phew.
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Or maybe something like this? Similar to the eidolon’s evolutions but only affect the wild shape form.
Nature’s Fury (Su): At 13th level, and every two levels thereafter, the land master may choose one of the following transformations. These transformations only affects the land master while in her while shape animal form. Once a transformation is chosen, it cannot be changed. This replaces a thousand faces.....
The problem with a lot of those evolutions that you showed there is that a lot of them are covered by the Beast Shape abilities, so if you pick an animal with "pounce", for example, you can use pounce already.
@re Temple Dancer
What's wrong with the two Dervishes?
Inner Sea Magic p34, Dawnflower Dervish
Ultimate Combat p32, Dervish Dancer
Nothing wrong with either of those archetypes, they just aren't a) what i'm envisaging either power-wise or flavour-wise and b) aren't multiclass archetypes. I did initially think after scrapping the Bard/Oracle version of the Temple Dancer (thanks raiderrpg ;) ) of just making a strict Bard Archetype, but needed divine inspiration (me and the archetype i think! ;) ).And the Dervish Dancer is close but still not what I'm looking to do - less battle more mystic. I admit my last words alluded to spinning and beheading etc(shrine-defending-enemy-beheading-whirlwind of death I actually said), but as the original idea comes from hindu women "married" to their deity or temple, I wanted divine stuff. So the Bard/Cleric Multiclass Archetype actually fits the bill nicely. Thanks purplefixer, I hadn't seen those two before. purplefixer - as it is, how do you like it? Pros/cons?
1. I would stick with the Bard + Cleric spell lists (Option 2A), for the sake of being simple. Leave it up to the player to choose spells that are in line with the flavor of the class.
2. I'd say dropping Versatile Performance for bonus feats from a specific list would be fine. Just call them Dance Tricks and list them. You can rename them if you want, something like this:Dancer's Lunge: The Temple Dancer gains the benefits of the Lunge feat without needing to fulfill prerequisites.
So, lemme just make sure we've got the substitutions all figured out:
-Spellcasting is now divine, taken from both the cleric and bard lists, but with bard spells known and spells per day limits. - fine
-Temple Knowledge replaces Bardic Knowledge - fine, although maybe a bit weak. Maybe give some type of divine bonus to these, since you're limiting the types of knowledge?
-Temple Dance replaces Bardic Performance - fine
-Orisons replace Cantrips - fine
-Domain replaces Countersong - fine, but you should make the domain powers show up at higher levels, generally, and the domain spells should just be added to the spell list, no bonus spell slots or anything
-Channel Energy (Say at every 4 levels, starting with level 2) replaces Well-versed and Lore Master - fineAll of that seems completely reasonable to me. Sounds like a nicely flavorful MC archetype. You could give a new capstone if you want, something more thematic than Deadly Dance.
Thanks cartmanbeck.
re: your points1: Spells Option 2a. Okay. I'm open to anything really.
2: Trading out Versatile Performance AND Countersong and Jack of all Trades AND whatever else I dropped out! Bonus combat feats are pretty cool and need to have a lot traded for them....
*Temple knowledge - I'm happy to give a +2 bonus to these skills, or leave it and help justify getting combat feats/dance tricks .
*Domain powers - I can see your logic, but not sure where to put them. Each domain had different powers at different levels and some are not given a level (i.e. are gained at first level) How to proceed? Stipulate that where a level is given the Temple Dancer behaves as if cleric level -2? And where not given receive at third level?
* Channel Energy - Yes!
Yes working on a new Capstone ability. Will post as i can....
Anyone else have comments/ideas?
The problem with a lot of those evolutions that you showed there is that a lot of them are covered by the Beast Shape abilities, so if you pick an animal with "pounce", for example, you can use pounce already.Or maybe something like this? Similar to the eidolon’s evolutions but only affect the wild shape form.
Nature’s Fury (Su): At 13th level, and every two levels thereafter, the land master may choose one of the following transformations. These transformations only affects the land master while in her while shape animal form. Once a transformation is chosen, it cannot be changed. This replaces a thousand faces.....
Oh! See, I've never played a druid, so I've never really knew that. As you seem to know the whole wildshape better, just scrap anything that is redundant.