I've been seeing some topics here and there on the subject, but I have no clue what a gestalt character is.
Can somebody elaborate, please?
Apologies if this is an oft asked question.
It's a style of play where for each level a PC has they have two separate classes. They take the better BAB of the two, the better saves of the two, all of the special abilities and class skills, and any spell casting that both classes give.
I've been seeing some topics here and there on the subject, but I have no clue what a gestalt character is.
Can somebody elaborate, please?
Apologies if this is an oft asked question.
Gestalt is a concept from third edition D&D, originally in the book Unearthed Arcana.
It just means that whilst normally you might be for example a 20th level Ranger or Sorcerer, gaining the abilities of the class at that level, you instead can have a character that is a fusion of for example a 20th level Ranger and a 20th level sorcerer. You cast spells and have all the abilities of both, whilst having none of the drawbacks.
The only issue is that the best builds tend to be those where the key stat for both classes is the same. For example, if you went both fighter and barbarian for example, then you would have the awesome raging abilities of the Barbarian, and the huge bonuses in feats and so on of the fighter. Suffice to say you would be able to jump into combat very very quickly and not have a whole lot to fear.
I like gestalt less and less...talk about op...
That's the point really. Gestalt comes into play in two situations: You use it either when you want to go nuts with power or you need characters that are, in a way, as powerful as two characters because you have half as many characters as usual.
I like gestalt less and less...talk about op...That's the point really. Gestalt comes into play in two situations: You use it either when you want to go nuts with power or you need characters that are, in a way, as powerful as two characters because you have half as many characters as usual.
In all fairness, it means for more flexible characters more than anything else. If for example you want to play with a small group of people, but don't want to have gaps in the party, it gives you a way to play it. Also don't forget, just cause you have more abilities, doesn't mean that you have more actions. The official line is that it makes you a level or two more powerful at the most.
Also don't forget, just cause you have more abilities, doesn't mean that you have more actions. The official line is that it makes you a level or two more powerful at the most.
How powerful it is depends on how good your players are at optimizing. You have all the options of two characters, which should be about a 2 level boost. But you still only have one set of actions each round, which drops your power. (It also means you won't go through limited use abilities as quickly, so seven encounters a day might be reasonable.)
Ideally, you want to mix a class with a passive abilities that do not require actions with one with active abilities that do. A Wizard 10//Sorcerer 10 would barely be better than a plain Wizard 10 for the first two or three battles. Both have the same poor hit points, saves and BAB. The most powerful class abilities on either side require a standard action. You even have two casting stats instead of one.
A Paladin//Rogue is deadly in combat. Evasion and Divine Grace mean you almost always take no damage when you roll a reflex save. Full BAB means that many of your attacks hit, and Smite plus Sneak Attack means your DPR is immense. And you have hit points, can heal yourself while full attacking and are resistant/immune to many effects.
Also don't forget, just cause you have more abilities, doesn't mean that you have more actions.
That is very true, and does mean that not everything will make you more powerful.
Wizard/Cleric will have many, many spells, but won't be able to cast one of each per round.
The trick is to combine classes that have "rider effects" - abilities that improve other actions. Let's say you go fighter/rogue. You get the fighter's attack and damage potential, with all the feats and so on - and you get sneak attack on top of that. You're a tough, heavily armoured fighter who hits hard AND where it hurts (and you get an extra good save and more skills)
Or a magus with rogue levels. Attack with weapon plus spell plus sneak attack. Ouch.
And so on.
Yea how much of a power boost gestalt is definately depends on how you put the character together. Some classes synergize very well like an archer figther with a caster/arcane archer, or A fighter and a barbarian. Those classes would be straight up more powerful then a normal character. But I also for a brief time played a warmage/beguiler gestalt character that really wasnt any more powerful in any way then a normal character, he just had a lot more options at his disposal.
I like gestalt less and less...talk about op...
Technically, it is less powerful than simply having 2 PCs. So it works out if you don't have enough players for a full group.
Very specialized rule though. Not something to introduce haphazardly.
The renown wizard-cleric(3)/oracle-sorcerer(4)/mystic theurge-mystic theurge(10) is here to meet all your various spell casting needs.
But yes, as many have pointed out, introducing the gestalt rule for character creation isn't wildly OP, but neither is it something to saunter into without some forethought.
It definitely boosts a character's survivability but doesn't give them any additional actions in a combat round. Your fighter-wizard(20) can either swing his sword like a champ or cast a 9th level spell, not both.
The other thing that made gestalt especially tough prior to Pathfinder was how slowly feats came. If you have two widely disparate classes lumped together, they're going to be competing for feats. This is mitigated somewhat now in Pathfinder since feat acquistition is much faster, but it's still something that needs to be considered.
Picking classes that are closer together in theme and synergize well is absolutely key to getting all the mileage you can out of a gestalt character.
Mystic theurge and similar classes are specfically not allowed in Gestalt, and (if I recall the rules correctly) only 1 PRC at a time.
We usually run gestalt because we have a 3 person+dm group and need the extra versatility. It does make characters more powerful and versatile, but you are still limited in your actions. And alot depends on which classes you combine. Some are dreadful, while others can really make a powerful character.
I would advise using fractional bab rules, also from UA.
No, and before you ask Enchanter/Transmuter (or other Wiz/Wiz etc) is not allowed either.
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I've never really had problems as far as relative power is concerned. Any time I play/run a gestalt game, characters pick classes for Versatility, so I never see Fighter/Barbarian, Fighter/Rogue, etc.
I usually see things like Fighter/Wizard, or Barbarian/Cleric, or Rogue/Druid... combinations that are certainly powerful, but not grossly overpowered.
And no, you can't stack two classes together (including prestige classes)
I like gestalt less and less...talk about op...That's the point really. Gestalt comes into play in two situations: You use it either when you want to go nuts with power or you need characters that are, in a way, as powerful as two characters because you have half as many characters as usual.
Sometimes, we've been using it in low-powered games to allow a wide array of abilities without necessarily having extremely high level and so on. While gestalt is basically level +1 to +2 in terms of power, there's a huge difference in a rog4/sor4 and a sor6 in terms of what they can do.
We tested it in a kinda-e6-game where it replaced the extra feats - when you were level 6 and gained enough xp for another level, you became a "gestalt" lvl6/lvl1 in another class.
Interestingly enough, in my experience it has an interesting side-effect of spotlighting players who play for mechanical power over flavor for class choice.
Don't get me wrong, at the very least I'm an optimizer, but I've run across more than a few players who have pretty much told me I was "doing gestalt wrong" when I didn't pick two classes that automatically guaranteed that I had full BAB, all high saves, at least some level of spell-casting, etc.
While I love finding nice mechanical synergies, and I usually end up playing with a somewhat optimized character, I really like the way gestalt allows me to bring some concepts to life.
I actually like the concept of gestalt for added versatility or even power, but there were certain basics I never really liked, such as potentially having a higher base save then is normally possible (in gestalt if one side has a strong save and one side has a weak save then you end up with a higher save then just the strong save in gestalt, such as a rogue cleric mix).
So what I am doing in my next game is giving each player a free super genius archetype, which adds around half a class worth of abilities but wouldnt modify saves, bab, hd or skills.
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I actually like the concept of gestalt for added versatility or even power, but there were certain basics I never really liked, such as potentially having a higher base save then is normally possible (in gestalt if one side has a strong save and one side has a weak save then you end up with a higher save then just the strong save in gestalt, such as a rogue cleric mix).
So what I am doing in my next game is giving each player a free super genius archetype, which adds around half a class worth of abilities but wouldnt modify saves, bab, hd or skills.
I was always under the impression that with Gestalt you just took the best of both worlds, so a level 3 Rogue/Cleric would be at +3/+3/+3, not +4/+4/+4, since you don't use the weaker save.
i'm actually playing two gestalt games right now. In the one, we had to roll on a chart to pick classes, races, gender et al. I ended up with an gnome Anti-paladin/Cavalier that kicks much goblin when charging, but is little use for anything other than being a meatstick. Fun to roleplay though, think of the most vicious little bastich you know, now as a result of his Cav class he has to brag about it too. Hilarity ensues. My other game's restriction was every gestalt char had to be half rogue. I added Gnome wiz illusionist to it and got the closest thing to a beguiler that i've seen in pathfinder so far. I can flank you without being in the same room. Best. Character. Ever. But i don't get more actions, and i need to choose from the six different ways i have to catch flat footed. Yes, it does make for survivability over multiple encounters, but i don't consider myself more powerful than a simple wiz or rogue. Our problem is that our Wend night game has ballooned to 9 players, meaning that there isn't time for more than two encounters a session. What i'm saying is that i agree, my Teus night game with four gestalt chars is much more fun, and better suited to the gestalt concept. Just don't let it get ridiculous. Gms can (and mine has) limited this by seriously making magical items scarce, and tailoring encounters that force one to choose what skill set they need most. He also recently gave us max HPs per level, as he found that when the Cr goes up for gestalt chars he was whupping us easy.(he tpk'd us with Bison, a random fraking encounter). It's up to the Gm to allow Gestalt, and if he's good it can be a rewarding experience for everybody involved. But it requires work on the GM's part. If you've got such a Gm, i highly recommend it.
I was always under the impression that with Gestalt you just took the best of both worlds, so a level 3 Rogue/Cleric would be at +3/+3/+3, not +4/+4/+4, since you don't use the weaker save.I actually like the concept of gestalt for added versatility or even power, but there were certain basics I never really liked, such as potentially having a higher base save then is normally possible (in gestalt if one side has a strong save and one side has a weak save then you end up with a higher save then just the strong save in gestalt, such as a rogue cleric mix).
So what I am doing in my next game is giving each player a free super genius archetype, which adds around half a class worth of abilities but wouldnt modify saves, bab, hd or skills.
You take the best of both worlds at each level. So if you have a cleric/rogue
At level 1 you take the clerics +2 fort +2 will and the rogues +2 reflex, at 2nd level cleric +1 fort +1 will and the rogues +1 reflex. At 3rd leveh though, the Clerics reflex gets +1 and you take the rogues' +1 fort and +1 will. So a gestalt cleric rogue at 3rd level has +4/+4/+4 for saves.
I was always under the impression that with Gestalt you just took the best of both worlds, so a level 3 Rogue/Cleric would be at +3/+3/+3, not +4/+4/+4, since you don't use the weaker save.I actually like the concept of gestalt for added versatility or even power, but there were certain basics I never really liked, such as potentially having a higher base save then is normally possible (in gestalt if one side has a strong save and one side has a weak save then you end up with a higher save then just the strong save in gestalt, such as a rogue cleric mix).
So what I am doing in my next game is giving each player a free super genius archetype, which adds around half a class worth of abilities but wouldnt modify saves, bab, hd or skills.
I believe what he is referring to is this effect;
Saves Progressionpoor= 00111222
good= 23344556
at 1st +2 from good
2nd +1 from good
3rd +1 from poor
4th +1 from good
5th +0
6th +1 from both = +6 when a good save is only +5
You can do the same with Bab if you don't use fractional Bab.
med bab= o12334
so a druid6/ranger1(at 1st level)+rogue5 you get
d o12334
rr 1o1233
at 1st +1 from ranger
2nd +1 from druid
3rd +1 from both
4th +1 from both
5th +1 from rogue
6th +1 from druid = full bab
instead of +4 for just a druid6/rogue6
I enjoy Gestalt, from optimization to OP fun.
My favorites:
Monkadin (Monk + Paladin)- Flurry + Smite
Mogue (Monk + Rogue) - Flurry + Sneak Attack
other favs
Mizard (Monk + Wizard) - make sure you have a rod of quicken
As a DM if I run Gestalt, I make sure we go for optimization and not op, but it all comes down to what my players want to do (after I pitch the idea)
We never did it the way Kolkitroni is saying. It was always at each level take the maximum Save between the two classes.
Thus, you take the Good save at all levels, and if it's not available, you take the poor. You take the maximum BAB from both classes (so Fighter/Wizard you take the Fighter's BAB, and your BAB is equal to your fighter level, your Fort Save comes from the Fighter (Good), your Will from the Wizard (Good) and your Reflex is Poor (Both have poor reflex saves)). You get 2 skill points (as both classes have 2). Gain the spells of a wizard and the feats and armor training of a fighter.
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We never did it the way Kolkitroni is saying. It was always at each level take the maximum Save between the two classes.
Thus, you take the Good save at all levels, and if it's not available, you take the poor. You take the maximum BAB from both classes (so Fighter/Wizard you take the Fighter's BAB, and your BAB is equal to your fighter level, your Fort Save comes from the Fighter (Good), your Will from the Wizard (Good) and your Reflex is Poor (Both have poor reflex saves)). You get 2 skill points (as both classes have 2). Gain the spells of a wizard and the feats and armor training of a fighter.
I'm almost certain that that's the way it's supposed to work. Nothing stacks when you do Gestalt. You just take the better of the two options (+3 is better than +1, so you use the +3, not add them).
My group played a gestalt Eberron campaign in 3.5. I can't remember what the other players had, but I had a Shifter Monk/Druid.
Combining druid buffs with monk attacks and the shifter's racial abilities made a whirling ball of fur, fangs and claws.
I've always been fond of the Paladin/Bard Gestalt. Nothing like riding around on a warhorse singing a jaunty tune . . .
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I'm almost certain that that's the way it's supposed to work. Nothing stacks when you do Gestalt. You just take the better of the two options (+3 is better than +1, so you use the +3, not add them).We never did it the way Kolkitroni is saying. It was always at each level take the maximum Save between the two classes.
Thus, you take the Good save at all levels, and if it's not available, you take the poor. You take the maximum BAB from both classes (so Fighter/Wizard you take the Fighter's BAB, and your BAB is equal to your fighter level, your Fort Save comes from the Fighter (Good), your Will from the Wizard (Good) and your Reflex is Poor (Both have poor reflex saves)). You get 2 skill points (as both classes have 2). Gain the spells of a wizard and the feats and armor training of a fighter.
Easiest way to solve this issue is to combine gestalt with fractional BAB and saves.
I've always been fond of the Paladin/Bard Gestalt. Nothing like riding around on a warhorse singing a jaunty tune . . .
Ive had a concept for this same combo bouncing around in my head, but that's certainly not the same image I'm going for. More of a former slave turned lightly armored spear-fighter who has been touched by God to change the world. Using the Arcane Duelist variant... dude has some serious spear-fightin' chops when you combine Arcane Strike, Inspire, Power Attack, and Smite.
BAM!
Also, I've always done saves/bab the way MDT described.
It may not be optimal, but since I'm a spell casting whore I'd love to mix spellcasting classes. Wiz/clr, wiz/sor, etc
Hmm, just got an odd idea, if you were to mix gestalt and regular, maybe have the regulars on the fast or moderate table and the gestalt set one table higher for XP requirements.
One of the problems I've had with understanding gestalt characters is the progression. It's easy enough to figure out with only two classes but what happens when you have 3 or more?
Level 1: Fighter 1/Rogue 1
Level 2: Fighter 2/Rogue 2
Level 3: Fighter 3/Rogue 3
Level 4: Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Wizard 1
Level 5: Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Wizard 2
Level 6: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 3
Level 7: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Cleric 1
Level 8: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Cleric 2
Level 9: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 6/Cleric 3
Level 10: Fighter 6/Rogue 4/Wizard 7/Cleric 3
What would your saves and attack bonuses be at each level?
One of the problems I've had with understanding gestalt characters is the progression. It's easy enough to figure out with only two classes but what happens when you have 3 or more?
Level 1: Fighter 1/Rogue 1
Level 2: Fighter 2/Rogue 2
Level 3: Fighter 3/Rogue 3
Level 4: Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Wizard 1
Level 5: Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Wizard 2
Level 6: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 3
Level 7: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Cleric 1
Level 8: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Cleric 2
Level 9: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 6/Cleric 3
Level 10: Fighter 6/Rogue 4/Wizard 7/Cleric 3What would your saves and attack bonuses be at each level?
It's simple actually. Just hard to grasp at first.
You take the highest of any valid combination of levels.
So, in your level 10 example, the only two valid combinations are Fighter 6/Rogue 4 and Wizard 7/Cleric 3. So you total up the BAB for Fighter/Rogue and the BAB for Wizard/Cleric, and take the higher of the two (Fighter/Rogue). Then you'd total up the fort save of Fighter/Rogue as if you multiclassed normally (which is what you are doing) and Wizard/Cleric, and take the best fort save of the two (Fighter/Rogue). Reflex would be Fighter/Rogue as well. Will would be Wizard/Cleric.
People get confused by all the class levels. But what you have to remember is that gestalt is basically saying I advance as if I were creating two individual characters, and take the best of whatever each has. If you had a Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Wizard 2/Cleric 2 as a fourth level character, you'd take whatever combination gave you the best BAB (Fighter/Barbarian), the best for Will Save (Wizard/Cleric), etc.
So let me make sure I understand (this is very confusing to me):
Level 1: BAB +1, Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +0, HD 1d10
Level 2: BAB +2, Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0, HD 2d10
Level 3: BAB +3, Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1, HD 3d10
Level 4: BAB +4, Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +2, HD 4d10
Level 5: BAB +5, Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +3, HD 5d10
Level 6: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3, HD 6d10
Level 7: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4, HD 6d10+1d8
Level 8: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4, HD 6d10+2d8
Level 9: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +5, HD 6d10+3d8
Level 10: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +5, HD 6d10+3d8
I hope I'm understanding this. I really wish that the examples given in a rulebook would give more than the simplest of examples. They should give one easy example and then one more complex example.
So let me make sure I understand (this is very confusing to me):
Level 1: BAB +1, Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +0, HD 1d10
Level 2: BAB +2, Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0, HD 2d10
Level 3: BAB +3, Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1, HD 3d10
Level 4: BAB +4, Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +2, HD 4d10
Level 5: BAB +5, Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +3, HD 5d10
Level 6: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3, HD 6d10
Level 7: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4, HD 6d10+1d8
Level 8: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4, HD 6d10+2d8
Level 9: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +5, HD 6d10+3d8
Level 10: BAB +6, Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +5, HD 6d10+3d8I hope I'm understanding this. I really wish that the examples given in a rulebook would give more than the simplest of examples. They should give one easy example and then one more complex example.
All of those are off.
I'm just going to look at the last one, level 10. First off, your HD is off, should be 6d10+4d8.
Your two valid combinations are Fighter 6/Rogue 4 and Wizard 7/Cleric 3. Both of those add up to 10.
So, Fighter 6/Rogue 4 has :
BAB : 6 (Fighter) + 3 (Rogue) = 9
Fort : 5 (Fighter) + 1 (Rogue) = 6
Ref : 2 (Fighter) + 4 (Rogue) = 6
Will : 2 (Fighter) + 1 (Rogue) = 3
Your Wizard 7/Cleric 3 also adds up to 10 (10 HD), so that combination is :
BAB : 3 (Wizard) + 2 (Cleric) = 5
Fort : 2 (Wizard) + 3 (Cleric) = 5
Ref : 2 (Wizard) + 1 (Cleric) = 3
Will : 5 (Wizard) + 3 (Cleric) = 8
So, your HD would be 6d10 (Fighter) + 4d8 (Rogue) as that is the best combination of Hit Dice from each level.
Your BAB would be 9 (since that's the best combination of valid levels, from Fighter/Rogue).
Your Fort save would be 6 (Since that's the best combination of valid levels, from Fighter/Rogue)
Your Reflex save would be 6 (Since that's the best combination of valid levels, from Fighter/Rogue)
Your Will save would be 8 (Since that's the best combination of valid levels, from Wizard/Cleric).
You can't mix Fighter/Wizard because 6 + 7 > 10. You also can't mix Fighter/Cleric because 6 + 3 < 10. When you multiclass and gestalt, you can't have any combination of levels that don't add up to 10. Theoretically, you could say 5 fighter/3 wizard/2 cleric and 1 Fighter/4 Rogue/4 Wizard/1 cleric are two valid combinations, but you're going to get lower BAB and saves that way, due to how they combine. Plus it get's confusing. :)
EDIT :
Just realized, I got one wrong. :)
Fighter 6/Cleric 3/Rogue 1 would generate a fort save of 8, so that would be the best you could get for Fortitude saves. That would leave the other combination Wizard 7/Rogue 3, which wouldn't generate anything 'best'.
We just banned triple classing and prestige classing when using gestalt rules. Most concepts can be made anyway.
I'm glad I don't do gestalt. mdt, I thank you for trying to explain it but it seems far more confusing than it needs to be. Way too much work for character building for my tastes. I still don't fully understand what's happening at each level as the character progresses but since I'm never going to be using gestalt I'm not going to worry about it.
Thanks again for trying to help me understand.
One of the problems I've had with understanding gestalt characters is the progression. It's easy enough to figure out with only two classes but what happens when you have 3 or more?
Level 1: Fighter 1/Rogue 1
Level 2: Fighter 2/Rogue 2
Level 3: Fighter 3/Rogue 3
Level 4: Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Wizard 1
Level 5: Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Wizard 2
Level 6: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 3
Level 7: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Cleric 1
Level 8: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Cleric 2
Level 9: Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 6/Cleric 3
Level 10: Fighter 6/Rogue 4/Wizard 7/Cleric 3What would your saves and attack bonuses be at each level?
Bl, it really is easy, but you don't take the "highest of any valid combination of levels." You take it level by level and calculate what is best of the 2 classes at that level. If the question was "I want a Fighter 6/Rogue 4/Wizard 7/Cleric 3, what is the most optimal combination?" Then mdt's calculations would be relevant. But bl gave a level by level breakdown of when the classes are taken.
F1/R1 Level 1: BAB+1, For+2, Ref+2, Wil+0, HD 1d10 sa1D6,ff,trapfinding
F2/R2 Level 2: BAB+1, For+1, Ref+1, Wil+0, HD 2d10 evasion, rt, ff, bravery
F3/R3 Level 3: BAB+1, For+0, Ref+0, Wil+1, HD 3d10 sa1D6, ts+1, armor train
F4/W1 Level 4: BAB+1, For+1, Ref+0, Wil+2, HD 4d10 ff, wiz class abilities
F5/W2 Level 5: BAB+1, For+0, Ref+0, Wil+1, HD 5d10 weapon train
F6/W3 Level 6: BAB+1, For+1, Ref+1, Wil+1, HD 6d10 ff
C1/W4 Level 7: BAB+1, For+2, Ref+0, Wil+2, HD 6d10+1d8 cleric class abilities
C2/W5 Level 8: BAB+1, For+1, Ref+0, Wil+1, HD 6d10+2d8 wiz feat
C3/W6 Level 9: BAB+1, For+1, Ref+1, Wil+1, HD 6d10+3d8 ce 2d6
R4/W7 Level10: BAB+1, For+0, Ref+1, Wil+0, HD 6d10+4d8 rt, uncanny dodge
Fighter 6/Rogue 4/Wizard 7/Cleric 3
total = +10 +9 +6 +9
If you were using fractional bab it would be
1+1+1+1+1+1+.75+.75+.75+.75 = +9bab
If you were using fractional saves you would need to recalculate the saves.
Stringburka is right, eliminate multiclassing and it becomes very simple.
