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From PFSRD -
MAGICAL LINEAGE(trait)
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
TOPPLING SPELL
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor. A toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
MAGIC MISSILE
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile - two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures (Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart). A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
OK... So you are a Sorc. with a ton of 1st level Magic Missiles that you can altered by this meta feat... sounds like great fun for hitting smaller minions and maybe even mid size bosses.
A question... If several missile hit one creature do you get to make separate trip attempts for each missile?
Lol, that is wicked... I love that you can do that at lvl 1...
As far as multiple missiles, it seems to me that it would trigger off each one, but that may not be intended...
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It says if it takes damage from the spell. Magic Missile is just one spell, even if the missiles themselves are separate. I would say that you do not get multiple checks against the same target, but you would get a check against each individual target that you hit. Thus a ninth level caster could target five different creatures with each missile and make a separate check on each of those five different targets.
This is a nice idea, though. I'm tempted to use it for more selective battlefield control with a cheap spell instead of a trait and a feat I'm planning to take, and the feat I'm planning to take isn't good enough that I desperately need it over this. This would be really fun.
Yep its got limited battle field control for cheap that for sure.
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As long as you don't mind these magic missiles requiring a full-round action to cast go ahead.Sure, if you're a Sorcerer. As a Wizard, by using the Magical Lineage trait, you can prepare all of your Magic Missile spells with the Toppling metamagic as level one spells still. And it's just a standard action as normal for them.
So, do you think this would be a viable battlefield control tactic? If so, I think I'm definitely going to use this.
I think it will be a viable tactic but it won't work every time since you won't be getting any bonuses to the trip attempt over what a normal unspecialized fighter would get with the exception of the lack of AoO. Additionally, I am not sure what the RAW is on it but I believe that RAI points to 1 target per casting as it is not pluralized.
Note that as a sorcerer though, it's a full-round action to cast. Still good, but that action cost is a balancing factor.
From PFSRD -
MAGICAL LINEAGE(trait)
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
TOPPLING SPELL
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor. A toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
MAGIC MISSILE
I think this would be fun for a cleric/oracle specializing in sanctuary and spiritual weapons as well. Fun idea for sure. As to other things MM can be good for, energy substitution for vulns, quicken, empower at lvl 3/4 wiz/sor, actually has a lot of viability from this build, maybe not elite but i think it could keep up and would be fun to play.
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile - two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures (Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart). A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
OK... So you are a Sorc. with a ton of 1st level Magic Missiles that you can altered by this meta feat... sounds like great fun for hitting smaller minions and maybe even mid size bosses.
A question... If several missile hit one creature do you get to make separate trip attempts for...
A question... If several missile hit one creature do you get to make separate trip attempts for...
You don't get to make several attempts for a single creature hit by several missiles, if that's what you're asking.
"If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on)."
It doesn't say "whenever the target takes damage" (although that wouldn't apply anyway since all the damage is simultaneous) - just "if". This leads me to believe that it only works once against a single target. It's a bit more difficult to determine how it works with spiritual weapons - does it only work the first time the weapon deals damage, or every time?
I think it will be a viable tactic but it won't work every time since you won't be getting any bonuses to the trip attempt over what a normal unspecialized fighter would get with the exception of the lack of AoO. Additionally, I am not sure what the RAW is on it but I believe that RAI points to 1 target per casting as it is not pluralized.As long as you don't mind these magic missiles requiring a full-round action to cast go ahead.Sure, if you're a Sorcerer. As a Wizard, by using the Magical Lineage trait, you can prepare all of your Magic Missile spells with the Toppling metamagic as level one spells still. And it's just a standard action as normal for them.
So, do you think this would be a viable battlefield control tactic? If so, I think I'm definitely going to use this.
I don't think it's one target per casting or it would have been specified, seeing as how common spells with several targets are and comparing to other metamagic descriptions.
There also WILL be a greater bonus than an unspecialized fighter, since he's far more MAD. Even at 1st level, a two-handed fighter will likely have a +5 bonus, a two-weapon fighter a +4 bonus, and a wizard might (with a decent point buy) have a +6 bonus.
And range and several targets is a pretty good bonus ;)
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So, do you think this would be a viable battlefield control tactic? If so, I think I'm definitely going to use this.I think its an excellent limited battle field controller... against minions and you get it at such a low level. The Boss sends a few goons to slow up you fighters from getting to them... Bam M.M. a few good rolls and they are on the ground.
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The other bonuses you get are excellent range, not having a chance to be tripped back if you fail, and potentially better than a normal unspecialized Fighter since you mostly just need to focus on INT, while they might focus on more than just STR, especially with their base stats.
Having a multi-target trip attempt with great range and no penalties for failure is pretty good.
Also, while it just says "the target", it doesn't indicate a limit to the number of targets. All five enemies hit by your Magic Missile are your target. They are all a target of your spell.
I agree the benefits are good. Able to trip multiple targets at higher levels is nice as well.
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I think this would be fun for a cleric/oracle specializing in sanctuary and spiritual weapons as well. Fun idea for sure. As to other things MM can be good for, energy substitution for vulns, quicken, empower at lvl 3/4 wiz/sor, actually has a lot of viability from this build, maybe not elite but i think it could keep up and would be fun to play.
Great IDEA! never put that combo together... I wish i had my books to look at force spell to play with some combinations but i like this idea.
I also like to see what else could be added Metamagic wise to M.M. to amp it up at higher levels...|
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You don't get to make several attempts for a single creature hit by several missiles, if that's what you're asking.
It doesn't say "whenever the target takes damage" (although that wouldn't apply anyway since all the damage is simultaneous) - just "if". This leads me to believe that it only works once against a single target. It's a bit more difficult to determine how it works with spiritual weapons - does it only work the first time the weapon deals damage, or every time?
Good catch the the word phrasing... I didn't see that. On the spiritual weapons... hmmm guess it be a DM call but would really amp up the spell.
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I think it will be a viable tactic but it won't work every time since you won't be getting any bonuses to the trip attempt over what a normal unspecialized fighter would get with the exception of the lack of AoO. Additionally, I am not sure what the RAW is on it but I believe that RAI points to 1 target per casting as it is not pluralized.
You can certainly get bonuses. Especially by level 15.
+1 Precocious Spellcaster [trait, not a magic trait]
+1 Varisian Tattoo, evocation [feat, requires SF evoc]
+2 Spell Specialization [feat]
+1 Bloatmage Initiate
+1D4-1 Orange Prism Ioun Stone in a wayfinder
+4 Spell Perfection [doubles bonuses from Varisian Tattoo, Spell Spec, and Bloatmage Init]
MM Caster Level = Caster Level + 1D4+8
Also, improved trip and greater trip provide their bonuses, as a "+2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe" still applies to the trip check caused by toppling spell. Greater trip would also make the targets provoke AoOs as normal.
So at level 15, with 28 INT the Wizard is tripping at an average of +38.5, arguably against multiple opponents in the same round and from hundreds of feet away. A level 15 fighter specializing in tripping to the same extent is going to have a +39, assuming a +5 heirloom weapon with the trip quality, weapon focus and greater weapon focus, a dusty rose Ioun stone in a wayfinder, a cracked pale green ioun stone, and improved and greater trip.
Limited spells isn't a huge problem, as 1st level pearls of power are extremely cheap for a level 15, especially if he makes them himself.
I forgot to mention also that spell perfection also allows him to automatically apply any metamagic to it as well. If he takes both quicken and dazing spell, he could shoot off a quickened volley and a dazing volley in the same round, not only causing two trips against possibly each of five targets, but also making them save or be dazed for a round. If he takes greater spell focus as well (I hope I'm not giving him too many feats), his DC will be 24 even though it's a 1st level spell, since spell perfection doubles the effect of SF and GSF. And he's still only using his first-level slots.
I'm sure the guys who came up with it thought of Magic Missile when they made this. The only way they couldn't have is if Paizo employed monkeys to bang on keyboards all day until coherent english came out, and WotC already showed us that that didn't work out so well.
Does the size limitations apply to the toppling spell? If not that level 15 caster will be tripping gargantuan/collosal creatures without a miss chance and using only a level 1 spell.
Sadly, I think the limitations are still there, since "You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you" still applies and there's no exception made. Which really doesn't make sense given that a huge caster and a diminutive caster don't shoot out magic missiles differently. I guess it makes sense for this guy to bring along enlarge person, that way he can trip huge creatures.
And the "no miss chance" thing isn't really important. While the missiles always hit, you still have to make a trip check, albeit at +36 to +40 for the example level 15 wizard. A lot of trippable CR 16ish monsters have on the order of 45-48 CMD vs. trip, so that's not auto-success.
And you can't trip flying creatures... or a lot of other creatures too (such as oozes, snakes, and the like).
Honestly, starting with APG and now UM, I feel like not allowing alot of the new Metamagics...
New spells are mostly fine, but I don´t feel like the new Metamagics are balanced against non-Caster options.
Then again, there is the no-Save Intimidate to force melee combat Feat... (in UM of all products!!!)
Honestly, starting with APG and now UM, I feel like not allowing alot of the new Metamagics...
New spells are mostly fine, but I don´t feel like the new Metamagics are balanced against non-Caster options.Then again, there is the no-Save Intimidate to force melee combat Feat... (in UM of all products!!!)
Meh, I consider things like shield of swings, bloody assault, stunning assault, and the critical feats to be 'meta-combat' feats.
I would consider these sorts of things on par with each other honestly -- the caster has to spend a feat and a higher level spell slot (or a trait at minimum for a single spell) where as the fighter has to spend a feat and swing with the right type of weapon.
All in all I would call it even.
It still seems there´s quite a bit less equipment that grants free usage of Feats...
Not to mention there´s not so many Traits that have the equivalent effect for ´mundanes´. What would be more equivalent:
boosting effective BAB for specific weapon for other Feat´s effect, e.g. Power Attack scaling and qualifying for high-BAB Crit Feats early (only for selected weapon) ...reducing usages/day consumption, e.g. 1st Rage Round for free... or, more equivalent to Toppling, free Trip (ala Bestiary) to any weapon (possibly specific one) for cost of Trait and 1 Feat.
Partly there is an issue with Metamagic rods themselves... but it´s exacerbatd by the new Metamagic, which is going well beyond the scale offered by the Core Rulebook. Incidentally, I prefer the house-rule of giving all Casters Heighten Spell for free, and non-casting-modifying Metamagic (i.e. Empower not Quicken) increases it´s DC to match the spell level adjustment... But with things like persistent spell and all the new other new ones, that house-rule just doesn´t hold up IMHO.
Anyhow, it will fit some people´s games, and not some other people´s games...
(btw, I can see your point some-what, though I would say the high-BAB Feats like you mention are just keeping on par with standard high level spells... and Shield of Swings? you can´t really compare that! 8-P)
I view the new metamagic as making blasters effective. Or at least more zo. For this reason, I Will allow them
I LOVE all the new options for making blasters effective (wizard, sorceror, oracle, druid, etc), with adding secondary effects to thematic blast spells, etc, but the new Metamagic just doesn´t cut it with me. Oh well, don´t let me rain on your parade if it´s your thing.
Well there is heirloom weapon, armor training, and river rat.
On the metamagic rods I can see your point.
I can easily compare a fighter's full attack to a ninth level spell -- in fact I would rather bet on the fighter's full attack.
The key to my 'meta-combat' is to remember what level you get it compared to what metamagic you get at the same level. To say "shield of swings doesn't equal a standard high level spell" complete misses the point.
FYI Shield of Swings isn´t a high-BAB feat, so I wasn´t comparing it to high level spells,
I just think it´s not that amazing esp. compared to Toppling Spell (it´s probably on par with Core Rules low-level MM)
(it´s not much different in effect than if you fought with 1H weapon and shield and spent the feat on shield focus instead)
I don´t think Heirloom Weapon, Armor Training are on par here (Armor Training Trait might be if it worked like Fighter Armor Training),
like I said, a free Wolf-style Maneuver on every attack is on par with Toppling Spell
Some of the martial classes have abilities that are definitely on par, but they are within specific class abilities (unlike metamagic) and may often kick in at mid-levels or later.
Incidentally, I think Ultimate Combat REALLY REALLY needs to give some love to Bludgeoning weapon usage.
EDIT: stunning assault only allows one save to each target you hit with at least 1 attack (on top of it´s penalty to hit), so each hit doesn´t force a new save. the stunning crit feat is per crit attack, but confirming multiple crits isn´t always so easy and immunity/fortification is in play when you can gain this. ...and as we agree, metamagic rods are probably the biggest problem, it was just that they weren´t that big a deal with only Core Rules metamagic.
Nasty combination. As I read it, the combination would be one trip attempt per target that takes damage. Keep in mind a few things - which by mentioning the intended types of targets you already have:
- a Shield spell makes it ineffective (no damage)
- a Brooch of Shielding makes it ineffective until you burn through it (no damage)
- if stopped by SR obviously it does nothing
- there are a fair number of critters that you cannot trip.
All in all though, that's a very solid combination that isn't "broken" in my opinion. Just remember that the baddies can do it too, and you're ready to perforate and roll!
stuffs
Yeah, also though (as Turin points out) the attacks don't have to contend with a lot of issues spells have to contend with, and you don't run out of attacks rolls either.
I imagine we can go back and forth over it all day (heck all week) but when it all comes down to the end I feel that in comparison for what is put it the output is roughly equal.
Honestly, starting with APG and now UM, I feel like not allowing alot of the new Metamagics...
New spells are mostly fine, but I don´t feel like the new Metamagics are balanced against non-Caster options.Then again, there is the no-Save Intimidate to force melee combat Feat... (in UM of all products!!!)
Toppling spell is not unbalanced compared to non-caster options. Without significant specialization in a single spell, you're using at least second-level slots up and the trip check isn't very high. For instance, at level 15 it would be a +24 trip assuming 28 in the casting stat, which is usually not going to trip CR-equivalent enemies. So you're paying a feat and a higher level spell slot for a mediocre chance of tripping an enemy. Hardly overpowered. Even with specialization, you're paying so much to be good at tripping with magic missile that you're not very good at other things. Plus, you're a high-level wizard wasting a turn in combat on 5D4+5 damage and a trip, perhaps spread across multiple targets and perhaps with trips against each one. There are such better ways to control the battlefield as a high level wizard that really it's a bit ridiculous to invest so many feats and resources into specializing in toppling magic missiles. Well, maybe not ridiculous to specialize in it, but certainly not unbalanced.
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Limited spells isn't a huge problem, as 1st level pearls of power are extremely cheap for a level 15, especially if he makes them himself.
I forgot to mention also that spell perfection also allows him to automatically apply any metamagic to it as well. If he takes both quicken and dazing spell, he could shoot off a quickened volley and a dazing volley in the same round, not only causing two trips against possibly each of five targets, but also making them save or be dazed for a round. If he takes greater spell focus as well (I hope I'm not giving him too many feats), his DC...
I like the pearl of power idea...
Spell Perfection and Dazing spell is a great idea. I need to look a little more into more controlling type of metamagics. A problem is with my group we seldom go beyond 12th level in play. I like to get alot of use out of this MM + trait + Toppling at low levels as i will never get to use the higher metamagics.
Even with specialization, you're paying so much to be good at tripping with magic missile that you're not very good at other things. Plus, you're a high-level wizard wasting a turn in combat on 5D4+5 damage and a trip, perhaps spread across multiple targets and perhaps with trips against each one. There are such better ways to control the battlefield as a high level wizard that really it's a bit ridiculous to invest so many feats and resources into specializing in toppling magic missiles. Well, maybe not ridiculous to specialize in it, but certainly not unbalanced.
A single trait and one feat itself isn't a huge investment for a starting wizard or sorcerer. The trait is specialized but the feat isn't tied just to magic missile but it does go together nicely. I can see this working out well for groups that have a lot of melee oriented players. Since they will want to get in close making it difficult for a arcane casters to unleash their high level area effect spells. The caster can use this combo to provide a free attack of opportunity for his companions while also limiting counter attacks by the enemy.