Hello gang
My group has just switch over from 4e (which we were luke warm on) to Pathfinder (which we're enjoying much more). I, as the DM, have a few questions though.
I've noticed in combat, with encounters built per the core book, that the PC and monsters are pretty well matched, which seems to be a change from 3.5. What I mean is this - I'm finding that the monsters and PCs are pretty easy to hit, and that the damage each does will wipe out the other pretty quickly. I've been doing a fair bit of fudging of the dice because I figured I'd screwed something up. Is this working as intended? It almost seems like the PCs and monsters need a hit point kicker like Hackmaster, a bonus of somewhere around 20 hit points at first level to make things interesting. What are other DMs finding? Should I be lowering the CRs of the encounters, or just beefing up the monster hit points while lowering their damage output?
Thanks for your comments.
Can you give any examples of the problem?
Sure.
One of the encounters I had was a giant scorpion against the party of six PCs. So the average level of the party is 1 (they're all first), plus one for having a large party, plus it was a challenging encounter, so another plus one, which give a CR of 3. The scorpion is CR 3. But at +6 to hit, with the fighters having an average AC of 17, I'm hitting them almost half the time, and a full attack on the scorpion is three attack rolls, even spread out, that's going to kill someone pretty quick. The damage is 1d6+4 for each claw, and then the tail, with poison. Now, maybe this one is over powered for them, the problem is, even at this level, they killed it in two rounds. So, the monsters die fast, but so do the PCs.
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I supposed that compared to 4th edition the game has faster kills.
Is a matter of tastes I guess, I prefer this way.
I strongly suggest to shift the focus of the "interesting" part of the combat on other aspects tha just hit people. Examples:
- Terrain: how I get him? how can I shoot them without being caught? how can I gain cover?
-Tactics: how can I use focus, defense, enemy disabling powers and spells to avoid damage and deal it at max?
- Counter measures like defensive spells and powers. This becomes particulary enjoyable at high levels, which can become a chain of counter counter measures and so on.
- Time. Well made prepared and delayed actions, timely debuffs and heals.
- Group. Buffs to increase resiliency, focusing damage and focused debuff to drop enemies fast. Paired with battlefield control (maneuvers and spells) this allows to decrease damage taken.
Just examples. PF assumes that if you are hit with a greataxe, you die. Be faster, or more clever, or well protected to avoid it. An HP dropping slugfest cannot compete with that ;)
Sure.
One of the encounters I had was a giant scorpion against the party of six PCs. So the average level of the party is 1 (they're all first), plus one for having a large party, plus it was a challenging encounter, so another plus one, which give a CR of 3. The scorpion is CR 3.
I don't think I would be wrong in saying perhaps you can pick two creatures that add up to a CR3 encounter instead of a single one. :)
Can you give any examples of the problem?Sure.
One of the encounters I had was a giant scorpion against the party of six PCs. So the average level of the party is 1 (they're all first), plus one for having a large party, plus it was a challenging encounter, so another plus one, which give a CR of 3. The scorpion is CR 3. But at +6 to hit, with the fighters having an average AC of 17, I'm hitting them almost half the time, and a full attack on the scorpion is three attack rolls, even spread out, that's going to kill someone pretty quick. The damage is 1d6+4 for each claw, and then the tail, with poison. Now, maybe this one is over powered for them, the problem is, even at this level, they killed it in two rounds. So, the monsters die fast, but so do the PCs.
A single CR3 monster can be rather deadly against a 1st lvl party, provided it gets to act early. Also a party of 6 is stronger than the assumed party of 4, and thus encounters should be balanced to reflect that. Preferably by adding more targets to hit, rather than strengthening those already there IMO.
For low levels I like to have more NPCs/monsters of lower CRs rather than one big bad one, and then when they do encounter a strong foe, they should be careful and use tactics to prevent themselves from being killed in one hit.
I don't care what system you are in, it can be very difficult to design a properly challenging encounter that isn't too easy or too deadly. I lean towards the easy side as my players always seem to make poor choices. Make sure there is a CLERIC in the party!!!! This has saved my group so many times. Come back and fight another day!
Okay, so more critters rather than one large one. I'll keep that in mind.
I don't remember finding it this hard to create more balanced encounters in 3.5. The system seemed to work pretty good. I'll have to be a little more careful with Pathfinder until I get a better feel for the encounter creation system.
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Okay, so more critters rather than one large one. I'll keep that in mind.
I don't remember finding it this hard to create more balanced encounters in 3.5. The system seemed to work pretty good. I'll have to be a little more careful with Pathfinder until I get a better feel for the encounter creation system.
3.5/PF is swingy at lower levels. Pathfinder PCs are a little tougher than in 3.5, but still you have to be rather careful. Err on the side of easier encounters until the players get a good grip on the rules. Higher levels are much more forgiving.
Okay, so more critters rather than one large one. I'll keep that in mind.
I don't remember finding it this hard to create more balanced encounters in 3.5. The system seemed to work pretty good. I'll have to be a little more careful with Pathfinder until I get a better feel for the encounter creation system.
You'll find it's pretty balanced...once you get past level 1. Seriously! Level 1 is brutal in 3.5 as well. 1 level higher and their HP nearly double, which makes that encounter half as bad.
Depending on party make up, this encounter is probably more challenging. I think the key would be tactics in this situation. Stick and move since it has thrice the attacks the PCs have. It also has awful saves, so one grease and it's down.
Hello gang
My group has just switch over from 4e (which we were luke warm on) to Pathfinder (which we're enjoying much more). I, as the DM, have a few questions though.
I've noticed in combat, with encounters built per the core book, that the PC and monsters are pretty well matched, which seems to be a change from 3.5. What I mean is this - I'm finding that the monsters and PCs are pretty easy to hit, and that the damage each does will wipe out the other pretty quickly. I've been doing a fair bit of fudging of the dice because I figured I'd screwed something up. Is this working as intended? It almost seems like the PCs and monsters need a hit point kicker like Hackmaster, a bonus of somewhere around 20 hit points at first level to make things interesting. What are other DMs finding? Should I be lowering the CRs of the encounters, or just beefing up the monster hit points while lowering their damage output?
Thanks for your comments.
At low levels (1 to about 3) a single powerful high CR enemy can very well TPK the party; as a rule it's best to use such a powerful enemy for special set pieces. Rather build encounters out of 3 or more lesser enemies.
At higher levels a single boss-like enemy is likely to be overrun by a party. The action economy is just so much in favor of the party: 4 to 6 full-round attacks, vs a single full-round attack. That is a whole lot of pain that the single monster needs to cope with.
A nice, challenging fight for 6 level 1 PCs could be put together from 2 CR 1 creatures, along with a group of 3 CR 1/3rds (for a collective CR 4 encounter). Very challenging, but not as likely to kill a PC as a single CR 3 brute.
An example: use two goblin rangers level 2 with favored enemy human-or-what-is-appropriate (CR 1 each), along with 3 normal goblins (CR 1/3rd each).
Okay, I'm starting to get the picture. More monsters is generally more fun anyway. I'll rework a few of the encounters and see how it goes. Thanks everyone.
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I don't care what system you are in, it can be very difficult to design a properly challenging encounter that isn't too easy or too deadly. I lean towards the easy side as my players always seem to make poor choices. Make sure there is a CLERIC in the party!!!! This has saved my group so many times. Come back and fight another day!
You don't -need- a cleric or even a healer in the party... :)
You don't -need- a cleric or even a healer in the party... :)
No, but it sure helps.