Do potion drinkers get saving throws?

[Diego Rossi]

cfalcon wrote:

In the case of being UNCONSCIOUS the rules are ABSOLUTELY clear: NO SAVING THROW.

That's for anything. Unconscious things don't get saves, period, no way, no how.

Note that unconscious != asleep. Sleeping is different.

So if your buddy is KOed, you can heal him without him saving against it, and you'd better hurry, because he won't get reflex versus the fireball that's coming up soon.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Quote:

Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

As you can see it nowhere say that you don't have a ST if you are unconscious or helpless.

[OilHorse]

Diego Rossi wrote:

OilHorse wrote:

Knowing that your group lacks the ability to find and disable traps and then throwing fatal traps in odd area...Gotcha

So we should reward bad game decision?

No one in the group has decent ranged attacks, so every enemy should be meele combatants?

No one bother with ST bonus items so no one should use spells on them?

See mdt...this (arrow up) is twisting words...

read what I said mssr Rossi...something about Fatal Traps and Odd Places...

Diego Rossi wrote:

OilHorse wrote:

To me,and how I run my game, yes, there has to be reality and consequences to actions,

From your words, no, it seem you don't want reality and consequences.

I just don't punish my players like it seems you want to, cause you know from your words that is what you like to do...

If no one wants to play a cleric do you punish them from that Bad Game Decision by forcing extra combats on them to teach them that they need healers?

Do you jam a fight that requires overcoming a specific DR even though the group has no way to acquire that kind of weapon and their dmage will just never over come the DR?

Cause it sounds like it.

[Diego Rossi]

OilHorse wrote:

Cause it sounds like it.

So your post give the distinct impression that you reward your players for taking bad decision, while mine give the impression that I go the extra mile to punish unwise decisions.

Strangely I don't get TPK, maybe because my players know when it is the time to retire and regroup and the encounters are appropriate to the level of the party.

You don't remove traps from the game because the players don't want to have someone with the trapfinding ability, it is the job of the players to find other ways to overcome/detect them.
Unless they are totally new to the game they should know that there is a need for balance in the abilities. A all spellcaster party is powerful but there are obstacles it will have trouble to overcome. A all front combatant party is powerful but there are obstacles he can't overcome and so on.

From your posts you cuddle the players to always win with ease. YMMV but for me it make a less fun game for all the people involved.

[cfalcon]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Sorry, but you are wrong.

You are correct, I was wrong. Unconscious creatures do apparently get saves.

[cfalcon]

...and no, I was right. It's just in a ludicrous place.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html

Look, under, of all places, "Aiming a Spell":

Quote:

Aiming a Spell

You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

So yes, if you are unconscious, you don't get a save, because you are willing. Sleeping is also a different effect than unconscious. My original post stands correct (on page 3).

[Sean K Reynolds]

FAQ!

[Happler]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

FAQ!

Thank you Sean. I believed that was the case, nice to see it in print.