Some parties distribute the gold made from selling items to the whole party. Even if it is your +2 longsword, the party's efforts were used to get it (which is almost always true, your party probably helped you get the materials if it was crafted) and they should get an equal cut as well.
In that case, it makes the most sense to get whatever upgrade item comes along instead of selling something you *could* use but it's not optimal. That way you don't have to "save up" personal gold to get an item, or you can use your personal gold on whatever you want.
If your party doesn't distribute gold after a sale (whoever uses the item gets all the proceeds from the sale), selling items slows down your rate of item gain. Instead of getting a marginal upgrade, you get half the value of that item. So in terms of WBL progression, it takes more time for you to get exactly what you want. And if you die because your gear sucks from waiting too long to upgrade, that's your own fault q:
Rapier of Puncturing is brutally nasty.
Just used these with some high level assassins in an 18th level 3.5 game. Very Nice.
And I just love how people see "House Rules" as a valid enough reason not to fix known problems within the system. /sarcasm
I love the way "House Rule" has become a dirty word on the forum.how is ogre even using a houserule? he never stated how he figured pricing. There ARE rules for upgrading magic items and it does not say that specific magic items are exempt...
Adding New Abilities
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
It seems Turin the Mad figured it out. it can't be that difficult if a person out of his mind managed to do so within the rules LMAO!
^_^ Yeppers! If the carnivorous hobbit can figure it out, it can't be that difficult.
Now, where'd my +3 rotisserie sunblades get off too ...
Actually by the rules, no campaign should have a Magicmart. Have you seen the community size and gold piece limit rules in the core rulebook? They are roughly a tenth of what 3.5 was. I like it!
No, the rules still assume you can go and buy any magic item, it is just that the maximum value of those items have changed. So we have Magic Minimarts instead of Magic Walmarts.
No, the rules still assume you can go and buy any magic item, it is just that the maximum value of those items have changed. So we have Magic Minimarts instead of Magic Walmarts.
If you mean "the rules assume you can go and buy the magic item you're looking for," I'm not sure that's true. Even if it is below the limit, you only have a 75% of finding it. And in the case of weapons in particular, those pricing caps are pretty hard. You have to be in a small city to purchase +1 weapons, and a metropolis to buy a +2. So you have to go to a metropolis to expect to be able to pick up a +1 flaming temple sword, for instance. You can't, by the rules, expect to find a custom-built +3, let alone make it up to a custom-built effective +10 bonus. Although I suppose that one could say that since "virtually any" minor magical item is for sale in a metropolis, you could get a +2 weapon with a special ability. But that's the farthest you could push it. The chances of having an "optimal" weapon in those 20-some-odd medium and major magical items (on average, 2 weapons) that are available, even in a metropolis, is almost laughable.
That's... a far cry from "any" weapon of your choice. If you meant "any magical item is theoretically for sale, somewhere," I apologize.
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Now imagine G-TWF and RoP + halfling-sized RoP (and casting of Master's Touch, or some exploit to make a normal-sized rapier "light" in the off-hand) = yikes.Rapier of Puncturing is brutally nasty.Just used these with some high level assassins in an 18th level 3.5 game. Very Nice.
...dwarven throwers....
The main problem with the DT isn't that it's a poorly-designed or overpriced weapon (hardly, although crit effects on 20/x3 weapons are suboptimal IMO, since you crit rarely and what you do crit is usually dead before the "extras" are piled on) -- it's that the character most liable to use one is probably in a DEX-dumping, heavily-armored class.
Dwarven throwers are a lot better in Pathfinder because a fighter picking hammers as his Weapon Training group gets to apply it to the thrower.
I'll take the whine free version of the game.
I've never loved you more than right now. :)
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Prices only matter when you buy and sell items. Most of these items are found and are often only sold if they can't be put to use.
At which point you're getting more for them than you should.
Put it this way, why even have these prices in the book if they aren't going to measure up to their worth?
Because they are interesting, fun, and players like them.
Why have rules that you sell for half? Etc.
Players value found items more than purchased items, the game system reinforces this. Players remember items that have lots of flavor because the very oddness of the items helps them tie it back to the memories of how they attained it. Every time a player uses an item acquired in an epic fight they recall that combat and it brings more richness to the setting. The more generic the loot the less likely you are to get that sort of positive feedback later.
Certainly you can handle this in your own games one way or another, but the rules system should have it handled better.
You are confusing "I don't like this" with "It's broken". These items are not really meant to be bought over the counter at magic mart and they don't compete well on that basis. They are meant to be used as story rewards.
The game system is not created to be used in a vacuum and run by a machine, it's designed to be run by a game master who controls these inputs, or at the very least runs a module designed to put these sort of items into the game in a logical fashion*. They wrote a whole book on Game Mastery and there is a chapter on the best ways to reward players (including some additional discussion on pricing magic items), if you haven't read it I highly recommend it.
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Encounter design, treasure placement, developing plot, etc...
These aren't things GMs "Fix" after the fact, this is what the GM does, it's his job. If you don't want to do things like this BUY MODULES where all this stuff is done for you. Complaining that the game system doesn't run itself is just silly.
"Holy Avenger" and "Dwarven Thrower" have always caused angst when I go weapon shopping in later levels. Sure they get "cool little abilities" if you're the appropriate class or race, but most of the time it's literally just cheaper to build one and skip those "cool little abilities" for something you might actually use.
If it's just for RP purposes, your DM(or you) could give names to every item you find, even just expensive mundane ones really... Gnibble's Gnice Telescope. My current DM has an unofficial house rule that we must name weapons of a +4 or better bonus.
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Longwinded story/examples...
I recently bought a "Lions Shield" for my paladin and it doesn't specify whether or not the attack is magical, so I asked if I could enchant it, similar to a "Spine Shield" (hvy shield & hvy. crossbow)... easy enough. So I have a +1/+2AC Lion Shield.
Same paladin, I liked the "Axe of the Sea Reavers" (MIC pg. 47), but could care less about all the ocean/water related powers. I asked if I could change it up and maybe get the panic ability twice instead and on a dwarven waraxe, done. So now it's a "+3 Waraxe of Panic" (2x Day), which I guess I need to name, will probably be a silly name considering the character is simple-minded. (It was only a +1, I paid for the extra +2 to make it a +3)
The main reason I even found this weapon was because I came across something similar in RotRL, with a name, that does a sickening effect in a radius upon striking (1x Day), I love it.
Both weapons work very well, even if the panic doesn't stack with my intimidating/dazzling display tactics... essentially I made a paladin into a battlefield controller. (no, we don't have a wizard or a druid)
Over a decade ago, in 2E, I had a DM who would invent his own magic items. We ended up having a ton of random stuff, but it was always fun and interesting. A Mobile King-size Bed (fly, spider climb, underwater action, etc.), a broadsword that could cut through stone, an armband that allowed speaking to 'animals & plants' and another for 'speaking with dead', a hookstaff that mimic'd various mortal kombat abilities, etc.
I enjoy the 'magic mart', but I REALLY enjoy the obscure 'different' items and think they're more welcome by my characters than yet another "+1 Flaming Generic Weapon". Or worse yet... "a large magical Ogre Hook", which supports the reason why players should be able to sell and buy at the magic mart, crappy module-themed treasure.
Ok, I'm done rambling, back to your regularly scheduled thread.
A sun blade is actually pretty accurate at +5. It's basically a +2 Holy Undead Bane weapon with some kickers on it.
==Aelryinth
i was looking at the Maul of the titans though i dont know if its classified as a 'stock magic weapon' like most of the discusion.
I was suddenly wondering how it interacts with Greater sunder dealing damage to the person holding the item. Given it does 3x damage to inanimate objects
That'll go through alot of items mostly in 1 hit and the second blow is connecting for around 60 damage or more without even critting.
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You've basically said that they purposefully made these items priced wrong, which I find both ludicrous and from a system point of view abhorrent.
No, the items are priced fine. You are assuming items are all priced with the assumption that they will be 'shopped' for based on how optimized they are. Your assumption is wrong.
(a)Items are priced based on the features they have regardless of whether it's less optimal than it's generic counterpart. Almost all of these items are priced correctly based on their features.
+7 item = 98,000 gold.
Reduce this by 30% since most of the benefits are dwarf only and the pricing comes it at roughly 68,000 gold. It actually sells for slightly less than that, most likely since the untyped damage bonus only works when it's thrown.
(b)GMs or module writers *place* specific items for plot reasons or to serve a specific NPC's design... or for any number of reasons.
(c)Players keep these items because they are interesting and fun, or possibly because they remind them of a fun/ challenging encounter.
As far as I can tell your big gripe is with pricing (a) but the pricing on these items isn't off, it's just a case that you don't like the feature bundles that are offered.
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You don't want to throw the thrower while you are enlarged as it will return to it's normal size (medium) and then you will have a size penalty. Although if you held it, it shouldn't scale up as it is additional damage.
As for lead blades...no, it would not scale up as it is additional damage which occurs magically
This puts the items down into a category of 'DM will give it to you, but you can't afford to craft it and you're even better off selling it than owning it if you can buy/craft something with that money'.
Arguably, every item that isn't specifically optimized for one of the characters at the table, but are above the level of the table fall into this category.
Most of these weapons are awesome flavor weapons around the time that most folks have a +1 or +2 sword of nothing special. Very few (none) of them stack up optimized crafted items, but they are there primarily as a nod to the 30+ years of gaming history. FWIW, I love them for that. This might have something to do with the fact that I don't enjoy high-level or high-magic campaigns all that much.
2 Words... Aegis-Fang...
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Umm.. no I'm complaining that the system that they put forward doesn't work in some places because they were sloppy with these items.
The only problem is that yours is an opinion, not a fact.
Those items all have non standard powers. You can't argue that the pricing of non standard powers is too high, exactly because they are non standard power and stay outside the regular pricing of equivalent to a +1 power, +2 power and so on.
If the item is placed in a campaign by a game master that know his hobby it usually is worth the price for that campaign.
If the GM use the random generator and place a dwarven thrower in a campaign where you never meet giants and none of the character is a dwarf it is simply a piece of valuable loot, he could place in the treasure a 30.000 gp statue and obtain the same effect.
If no one would reasonably pay that amount for the item then the pricing formula is wrong.
It is a good litmus test.
Only if you hold to the conviction that your opinion is right for all the player.
I would pay the listed price for a sun blade, would pay for a rapier of puncturing and so on for most of the items.You wouldn't. But that is you, not "all the players".
Next convention you can interview one thousand players and see what they reply about buying special weapons, then you can eventually speak for a majority of the players.
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If no one would reasonably pay that amount for the item then the pricing formula is wrong.
(a)Items are priced based on the features they have regardless of whether it's less optimal than it's generic counterpart. Almost all of these items are priced correctly based on their features.
No, it means the item has a combination of features people don't want.
The Hammer is super specialized for one very specific role. The fact that this oddball device isn't something people need doesn't mean the pricing system is broken, it means that there aren't a lot of dwarf characters who throw things at giants anymore. Mostly because throwing based characters are terrible. The only reason it's in the game is because people would have complained if this item which has been in every version of the game since AD&D was missing.
What it is good for is demonstrating how you can apply the pricing system to custom, one off items.
This puts the items down into a category of 'DM will give it to you, but you can't afford to craft it and you're even better off selling it than owning it if you can buy/craft something with that money'.
There should not be any items in this category... if they are there then the pricing on them is bad.. either by formula or by fiat.
Again, you are laser focused on "Pricing is for shopping" and this isn't the way the game system is built.
You can read my above posts if you want the reasons why a GM might place items that players won't buy. I'm tired of repeating myself.
Why would anyone ever use specific magical weapons?
Style, personally I prefer specific magical weapons and armor for that matter. Each item is more flavorful than just another +3 long sword. I would have preferred the vorpal blade to remain a special weapon instead of comming a weapon quality. My earliest successful character was an elf ftr/mu with both a flametongue and a frostbrand. I am currently playing his great grandson (bladebound magus)who is trying to acquire enough wealth to buy a set of elven chainmail. His goal is to acquire all of the items with an elven nature; boots of elven kind, oathbow, etc.
Playing a character with a certain style may not be optimized but makes the character memorable. I had a fire elementalist who wears a leather vest made from red dragon hide. Tends to make an impression when he enters a tavern.
Doug
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I know this idea is a bit alien but a lot of groups use the items they find. So if they find a Sunsword or a Belt of Dwarvenkind they don't hold up their nose and say "Ewww, yuck this is sub-optimal gear", they debate who the item suits best and that character uses it.
Also, it's fairly easy to figure out how to price upgrading specific items.
Edit: As a GM it's nice to throw in things like this also. It gives the party a little more flavor than the generic goto items offer.
Edit: Edit: Custom items often work well as story seeds too.
I like them for the reason bolded. so +1
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Pricing is used to help GMs budget treasure for encounters and to help create balanced NPCs.
You have these lenses on that are laser focused on optimization and utility and that's not how the game works for many people.
People like fun items.
GMs like placing fun items.
Modules have fun items built into them.
You have this perception that since they are sub-optimal that they are somehow broken. But consider for a moment that the Paizo staff use these sort of items a LOT. Paizo has some of the best adventure designers in the business. Why do the best designers in the business use these items? Why do they create them specifically for individual games?
Because people LIKE these items in their games.
You say they are broken. The best game designers use them a lot. Players gobble these items up.
It's not broken, your perspective is a little skewed by your optimizing lenses.
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If it's that bad, then fix it yourself. No really, go fix it.
When you make an attempt to fix the problem, you will notice that it's extremely hard to fix. The Trident of Fish Command, for example, would be worthless at half the price in a game that has no water. It's a +1 trident, yay.
But in a completely aquatic game? Is it worth 17,000 for your fighter to be able to charm 14 HD of giant sharks whenever he freaking wants to? YES!
And the Sword of the Planes. In a game with no outsiders? It's a very expensive +1 sword. But in a game that travels to the Outer Planes regularly, or has lots and lots of enemies from that place? It's a +4 longsword with a 10,000 gp discount!
The reason that these weapons are too expensive for your liking is probably the limited use of their special abilities.
And some of them, like the Nine Lives Stealer and the Luckblade, are probably better off in the hands of an NPC anyways.
No, it means the item has a combination of features people don't want.
The Hammer is super specialized for one very specific role. The fact that this oddball device isn't something people need doesn't mean the pricing system is broken, it means that there aren't a lot of dwarf characters who throw things at giants anymore. Mostly because throwing based characters are terrible. The only reason it's in the game is because people would have complained if this item which has been in every version of the game since AD&D was missing.
In fairness I think I was the one to bring up the hammer, that's not James' doing and I agree with what I bolded above. Playing a dwarf whose currently fighting giants(cuz I am), I find it a bit excessive in it's abundant features... even at a 30,000gp discount.
But it should also probably be noted that I'm not built as a "ranged" attacker, I'm built as a HP/AC sump aka "Tank". Nor is everything always a giant, I don't tend to pigeon hole my characters that way. A simple throwing/returning hammer would likely be more welcome on my character sheet, but that's my opinion/playstyle.
The reason that these weapons are too expensive for your liking is probably the limited use of their special abilities.
+1
Personally I like specific weapons much better than your customizable weapon with add on powers, they might not be worth crafting or buying most of the time, but they much more closely approach what I want from a magical item. A weapon that can do exactly what spells can do is rather boring, but fairly easy to adjucate, a specific weapon is much more like creating a new spell and not exactly bound by rules and limitations, that doesn't mean they go against RAW it just means there is no RAW for them.
I must have a weird group. The inquisitor sought out celestial plate armor and the paladin wields a holy avenger in her primary hand and a sun blade in her off hand. They are level 16. They just found a sword of subtly which the rogue is going to take but he loves his urgosh so he probably won't use it much.
I love style over numbers. Obviously I want to be able to survive combat but I also love style. I would rather have a character who wields a Sword of the Planes than a simple +3 weapon. One is simply cooler than the other. I would rather have a character wearing celestial armor, with a winged shield, and a sun blade. Sure, he might be more optimized with other gear but honestly, he would look awesome and still be effective.
In general, if I allow any weapons to be purchased at WBL, then I only see the +2 Flaming Falchata, etc.
If, instead, I generate a list of what is available for purchase in towns, then I have seen named weapons get purchased. If I put them in a treasure, then they get used.
If you're not seeing them being used, it's usually because getting weapons customized is so easy that it's just an assumption anything you want can be found. In general, in my games, I set up lists of 'stock' for towns ahead of time, and if the PCs want something, they can hunt through town to try to find out what is for sale. If they don't like it, they can commission something, if they find someone who can make what they want. I've found this does a load for both versamillitude and having the groups gear be more organic from a story concept.
In my current game, I have 10 'stock lists' for each size town pre-generated, and when they enter a town I'll roll a d10 and that's what is in that town if they look. Once they use one, I'll scratch it off the list and generate another one. Granted I wrote a program to generate those since the core book rules for generating are so convoluted and recursive that it gives me a headache just to read them, so I can generate hundreds of towns in minutes, but it really really is worth it to do so.
In general, if I allow any weapons to be purchased at WBL, then I only see the +2 Flaming Falchata, etc.
If, instead, I generate a list of what is available for purchase in towns, then I have seen named weapons get purchased. If I put them in a treasure, then they get used.
If you're not seeing them being used, it's usually because getting weapons customized is so easy that it's just an assumption anything you want can be found. In general, in my games, I set up lists of 'stock' for towns ahead of time, and if the PCs want something, they can hunt through town to try to find out what is for sale. If they don't like it, they can commission something, if they find someone who can make what they want. I've found this does a load for both versamillitude and having the groups gear be more organic from a story concept.
In my current game, I have 10 'stock lists' for each size town pre-generated, and when they enter a town I'll roll a d10 and that's what is in that town if they look. Once they use one, I'll scratch it off the list and generate another one. Granted I wrote a program to generate those since the core book rules for generating are so convoluted and recursive that it gives me a headache just to read them, so I can generate hundreds of towns in minutes, but it really really is worth it to do so.
Off topic: I hate programming, but I need to do it so I can get better. I guess I have a project now. Thanks.
Off topic: I hate programming, but I need to do it so I can get better. I guess I have a project now. Thanks.
Currently, I have it generating random magic weapons/armor/shields, using similar entries as the MIC. I just didn't like it's break apart spreads on +2 and higher. So you're more likely to get a +1 flaming with my numbers than the MIC set. It generates the item, and the cost (so I get things like +2 flaming bane mithral short swords). It picks a random weapon/armor/shield when it hits one, so there's a lot more variety than just everything being a +1 longsword.
Anyway, doing it as a database makes it much easier, as you can do sql code to do the lookups and selects, and the database handles all the data parsing and table handling for you, rather than you having to load text files and parse them in code. You can get several free databases (MySQL, MS SQL Server Developer, etc).