Monks are the best non-magical defensive class if you never bother to make yourself capable of fighting.
Who needs to fight with Antagonize?
Oh, enlighten me!
As to the second part are you really at a lost of how to deal with a monk with a caster, or are you trying to make a point that I am missing?
That is not answer. :)
I played a monk in a party of rogues i was god!!! but seriously 2 rogues a druid and my monk (thats makes me "tank") i focued on wisdom and dex for the ac. and took ability focus stunning blow (3.5) sooo stun the baddy then two immediate well placed sneak attacks. everytime i stunned one that one would go down very soon after nto to mention i don't think i was ever hit hmm well non confirmed crit once. other good scene for that monk was the unhittable full plate wearing natural armor haveing npc whom i grappled and wresteled into uselessness.
That is not answer. :)Oh, enlighten me!
As to the second part are you really at a lost of how to deal with a monk with a caster, or are you trying to make a point that I am missing?
Actually, KaeYoss has a good point in that most no-save offensive spells aren't that good against the monk. Yes, you can buff, but that's not always great and certainly not if you're an NPC with minions that move for 30 when the monk moves for 80.
Among the offensive no-save, no touch attack spells, grease, pit spells, and stuff that has an effect on a made save. Grease and pit spells are basically worthless for a guy that can jump to the moon and back, and most spells that have an effect even on a made save are quite weak for what they do. Yeah, Fear isn't a bad spell - but spending a 4th level slot to cause Shaken for one round isn't that awesome either.
Left is buffs, which work only if your minions are useful against the monk to begin with. In my experience, monks are quite good vs. lots of little guys, due to excellent movement preventing swarming, lots of attacks instead of one big overkill, and due to CMD preventing swarming combat maneuvers.
No-one's saying monks are Immune to Wizard, but they're effective. In a theoretical one on one monk vs. wizard I'd put my money on the monk, unless very low level AND starting on long distances.
What if the wizard is flying? or invisible? or both? (not being snarky)
That is not answer. :)Oh, enlighten me!
As to the second part are you really at a lost of how to deal with a monk with a caster, or are you trying to make a point that I am missing?Actually, KaeYoss has a good point in that most no-save offensive spells aren't that good against the monk. Yes, you can buff, but that's not always great and certainly not if you're an NPC with minions that move for 30 when the monk moves for 80.
Among the offensive no-save, no touch attack spells, grease, pit spells, and stuff that has an effect on a made save. Grease and pit spells are basically worthless for a guy that can jump to the moon and back, and most spells that have an effect even on a made save are quite weak for what they do. Yeah, Fear isn't a bad spell - but spending a 4th level slot to cause Shaken for one round isn't that awesome either.
Left is buffs, which work only if your minions are useful against the monk to begin with. In my experience, monks are quite good vs. lots of little guys, due to excellent movement preventing swarming, lots of attacks instead of one big overkill, and due to CMD preventing swarming combat maneuvers.
No-one's saying monks are Immune to Wizard, but they're effective. In a theoretical one on one monk vs. wizard I'd put my money on the monk, unless very low level AND starting on long distances.
I know he has a good point, but that does not mean the caster can't do anything. That is why I asked if he really does not have any other ideas.
Actually I put my money against low level low BAB casters and change it as they get to higher levels. Distance matters also. I can't argue with that. You might have 1 round to end things if the player knows what he is doing depending on the setup.
Many times people post situations without thinking of the other person's obvious reply that is going to come next. Sometimes the reply is not really so obvious, but the point is that instead of letting someone tell you something you already know, which waste times I think it is better to bypass that step. I have done it also. I was really curious as to whether or not he had an answer for his question "so what else is there", or if he is just trying to say the options are very low which I agree with.
What if the wizard is flying? or invisible? or both? (not being snarky)
That is actually the common response given when that comes up. I would save the monk for last since he is the most difficult to affect. Tie him up with minions. The new and improved paladins are given the same treatment.
My only real issue with the Monk is the list of highly setting-specific monk weapons. If that was fixed, I'd like the class much better.
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What if the wizard is flying? or invisible? or both? (not being snarky)
Core? Uses his excellent perception bonus to locate the general area of the caster, activates his item of flying, and spends a turn making an ungodly number of grapple attacks into various squares until one hits. Then he latches on.
Without flying? He pops a ki point and JUMPS at the wizard.
So, aside from the classes that can actually cast fly, he's more useful than anyone else because he's got a higher jumping range and more attacks/round to locate the occupied square.
Oh, he can also throw a stupid amount of rocks/use sling to the same effect.
APG?
zen archer monk
Ultimate Magic?
quiggong monk :p
If you focus on combat you can make a pretty good heavy hitting monk for melee attacks, especially with the right gear and feat selection.
Monks Robe: AC bonus and unarmed damaged treated as five levels higher
Supream Unarmed Strike Feat ( from the Book of Nine Swords ): Monks picking this feat treat their unarmed damage as if it was 4 levels higher
After BAB requirments for SUS and adding in for the Monk's Robe, you now have a monk that at 4th level can hit as hard as a greatsword ( adjusted Unarmed Damage by 9 levels from level 4 = unarmed damage of a 13th level monk, 2d6 )
Versatile Unarmed Strike Feat ( from PHB II ): as a swift action you can switch your damage from blugeoning, piercing or slashing ( Tiger Claw, Stone Fist and Knife Hand for flavor text )
Dex based of course will want Weapon Finess when they qualify, for the to hit boost, and an Amulet of Mighty Fists is pretty much a forgon conclusion ( though expensive compared to other items ) for either weapon abilities or the to hit and damage bonus.
Alot of people also forget about the Monks Purity of Body (True Story: Grappled a Mummy Lord in The Crimson Throne, "I'm gonna wash that Mummy Rot right out of my hair.." ). And for those less than savory Monks ( I've read of this but never seen it in play ) Diamond Body + Contact Poison + Unarmed Attack/Grapple/Trip = A very glistening fast moving poisoned weapon arcane caster seeking person ( this would be dependent on how long the poison would stay on the Monk )
I've always seen them as primarily the one that takes out Arcane caster's once they get a bead on em.
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If you dig into books like the nine swords and other splat material, you can make ANY class deal broken damage :p
Of course, the monks robe also costs, what, 13k?
WBL tells us that a monk could only afford the monks robe at 6th level at the earliest, and probably not until 7th or 8th considering some of that wealth will be allocated elsewhere.
Now, don't get me wrong. Monks can make great damage dealers. Check out the dpr olympics if you doubt :p However, once you move beyond the core material/ignore Wealth By Level restrictions, you're only proving that given unlimited resources, a character can do good damage. Which... isn't much of a point to prove :p
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Monks are one of two things from the GM's perspective: your worst nightmare as [insert combat maneuver of hosing here] machines...
I'll second that. During the climax of a home brew campaign we went up against a Storm Giant with Sorceror levels. I want to trip/grapple him. I rolled a natural 20. My greatest triumph. My greatest disappointment immediately followed when the GM said I couldnt do it, 'because he was too big'. The players were not happy about that ruling...
Let's not forget Disarm. If you Disarm when unarmed you can automatically pick up the disarmed weapon. So the monk takes your super-expensive sword off you... and runs away, waving it and calling out amusing insults... ;)
That's something players are loath to use, though: The GM could use it on them, after all, and the chances that the player who's playing the recently robbed fighter will start crying like a five-year-old who just had her candy taken away just after her cat died in front of her eyes is about one killion percent.
Monks are one of two things from the GM's perspective: your worst nightmare as [insert combat maneuver of hosing here] machines...I'll second that. During the climax of a home brew campaign we went up against a Storm Giant with Sorceror levels. I want to trip/grapple him. I rolled a natural 20. My greatest triumph. My greatest disappointment immediately followed when the GM said I couldnt do it, 'because he was too big'. The players were not happy about that ruling...
In 3.5 I believe that there were size limitations on what you could grapple.
In Pathfinder there aren't - although glomping onto a storm giant sorcerer could be vary bad for your well being. Campaign climax? Should've given the giant a ring of freedom of movement and been done with it ...
Nat 20 grapples are awesome - right up until it makes the "end boss" a total chump in round 1. Round 3 now, THAT would have rocked!
How are monks better defensively against physical attacks?No, against everything really.They cannot hit as hard as a fighter, but they are better defensively.Only against magic.
They can cram their AC's through the roof, that's how. It's one reason bracers of armour are limited to +8 ... they can't quiote beat a determined plate-armoured fighter (he can beat it by a point or two) but their touch AC will be way, way better.
Barely escaped by running along the shore just out of reach, and crossing a spit of land or sandbar (taking 1d12 damage in the process by drying out. Rolled an 8. Deathly close) that my tentacly friend would have to take the long way around. (Good thinking on my part, I'm very glad for my high perception skill.)
As for how I got here... Well, let's just say this monk has to learn to use his 240ft. a round run actions a little more wisely in future. Good things dont come from leaving one's party in the dust.
I've yet to have a proper experience to flesh out my role in the party. Our roster seems to change constantly (currently with a 3.5 warlock, a magus, and a fighterish statblock dmpc... a nice change from a mostly ranged party as I should be able to flank.)
I wield a dagger (which I can flurry with) and alternate that with unarmed strikes. Stunning fist is great for "cheap shot" flavour and being able to work in trip attacks to my flurries is great, though I'm a grappler at heart. What else would one do with 22 str?
And yes, I'm shamelessly minmaxed and a glass cannon. I know this won't be for everybody, but given his lack of any form of intellegence or charisma in his previous incarnation as a rogue, I felt perfectly justified in this.