I have decided that Monks are, by far, the best class to use as a trap trigger.
*Warning* This is not a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of Monkhood.No, just a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of 3.X class design.
I checked the PRD. Ioun stone bonuses are untyped. So, yes, they stacked.Huh?
The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Wisdom of +2They have never stacked. . . ever.The PRD doesn't say anything about Ioun stones having a type of bonus
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/wondrousItems.html#ioun-stone s
Except for the text I quoted?
I find it funny when they say that monks are gear dependant... Flash news every class IS gear dependant!
Now take this example into consideration:
A level 10 monk with no gear whatsoever vs a level 10 fighter with no gear whatsoever....tell me who is gear dependant now XD.
I have decided that Monks are, by far, the best class to use as a trap trigger.
You would be absolutely right. And in virtually every game I've been in or GMed, the monk almost always goes first.
I checked the PRD. Ioun stone bonuses are untyped. So, yes, they stacked.The head band and belt would stack since they're bonuses to different attributes. The stone is the item you'd have to check if it's an enhancement bonus then it would overlapp but if it's a different type or untyped, then you're good.They cannot stack...ever...I'll take your word for it. The character I had had a maxed out belt (for Dex) and headband (for Wis) and an Ioun stone (which if I remember correctly gave a boost to Wis). I'm pretty sure they stacked.
But I would have to double check the character sheet. It's been awhile and I'm on prescription meds - I might be misremembering.
I don't know where in the PRD you look, where I look it says (regarding ioun stones):
+2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity
That definitely doesn't stack.
Just for the sake of clarity, the main thrust of my initial question was "what the Monk does FOR his fellow party members".
A Monk can heal himself, fight (and as some of the posts suggest is able to effectively neutralise any end of adventure Big Bad by himself), move himself through difficult terrain. He doesn't need weapons. I don't deny he's probably fun to play.
A Monk doesn't seem to need anyone else really either. So, given the examples of reaction to other character classes (given very tongue in cheek in the OP) what would provoke the other party members to say "Oh good now we can....." rather than "Great, a Monk, nice to meet you. Off you go lad and good luck."
So far, in my opinion, a mobile, stunning foil to the Rogue seems to be the best answer. Cartigan's trap trigger may be a little harsh, we usually just use animals when the druid's not looking ;)
I find it funny when they say that monks are gear dependant... Flash news every class IS gear dependant!
Now take this example into consideration:
A level 10 monk with no gear whatsoever vs a level 10 fighter with no gear whatsoever....tell me who is gear dependant now XD.
"No gear whatsoever" is a rare situation, but yeah, you've got a point. On the other hand, a 10th level sorcerer or druid with no gear whatsoever would kick their butt... Even if they cooperated.
Now I want to make a 10th level naked fighter. I'm thinking of doing one for the DPR olympics, just to see what can be done.
Just for the sake of clarity, the main thrust of my initial question was "what the Monk does FOR his fellow party members".
A Monk can heal himself, fight (and as some of the posts suggest is able to effectively neutralise any end of adventure Big Bad by himself), move himself through difficult terrain. He doesn't need weapons. I don't deny he's probably fun to play.
A Monk doesn't seem to need anyone else really either. So, given the examples of reaction to other character classes (given very tongue in cheek in the OP) what would provoke the other party members to say "Oh good now we can....." rather than "Great, a Monk, nice to meet you. Off you go lad and good luck."
So far, in my opinion, a mobile, stunning foil to the Rogue seems to be the best answer. Cartigan's trap trigger may be a little harsh, we usually just use animals when the druid's not looking ;)
The Monk can do the same for his fellows as a fighter does. He can be the "Meat Shield". Primary difference is that instead of taking every hit,he dodges more. Plus his personal healing adds to his resiliency. On a similar note,imagine that the party has just finished a battle. The cleric is making his rounds and healing everyone,but he can skip the monk because the monk can heal himself. So even though his healing is self only,it still helps the party by adding to the overall healing pool and allowing the cleric to save his for others. And @Cartigan,the Monk is an excellent trap trigger due to his awesome saves,spell resistance,and boosted AC.
I have decided that Monks are, by far, the best class to use as a trap trigger.You would be absolutely right. And in virtually every game I've been in or GMed, the monk almost always goes first.
Exactly. It's safest for the Monk. All good saves. High Wisdom and high Dex to augment reflex and will and no particular need for the other stats so they can pump Con as well. Also, Evasion.
Who needs a Rogue?
+2 enhancement bonus to DexterityThat definitely doesn't stack.
Oh, I think in Seekers of Secrets (or some other source) they have stacking ioun stones - but those stones only stack with themselves. The total cost of those ioun stones is worked out that if you have 3 of them (to get +6 to a stat) you pay the appropriate 72,000gp (that's 2x the normal cost for a belt/headband of +6, which is correct for a slotless item).
*Warning* This is not a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of Monkhood.No, just a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of 3.X class design.
The institution of the Monk harks all the way back to the late, great, E. Gary Gygax. Without him none of my favourite hobby would be available. I may, with tongue still firmly in cheek, take a sniff or two. I would, however, never even lick his lollipop, let alone "have a go".
Just for the sake of clarity, the main thrust of my initial question was "what the Monk does FOR his fellow party members".
A Monk can heal himself, fight (and as some of the posts suggest is able to effectively neutralise any end of adventure Big Bad by himself), move himself through difficult terrain. He doesn't need weapons. I don't deny he's probably fun to play.
A Monk doesn't seem to need anyone else really either. So, given the examples of reaction to other character classes (given very tongue in cheek in the OP) what would provoke the other party members to say "Oh good now we can....." rather than "Great, a Monk, nice to meet you. Off you go lad and good luck."
So far, in my opinion, a mobile, stunning foil to the Rogue seems to be the best answer. Cartigan's trap trigger may be a little harsh, we usually just use animals when the druid's not looking ;)
That healing is not enough to let you survive the next attack most of the time.
No the monk can not neutralize any Big Bad by himself. He can neutralize some, just like some other classes can.Most of the other stuff is possible.
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This was an old trick in the days of the Dark Age of Camelot MMO. "Hey look, it's a squishy wizard. Why is he beating the living tar out of me with a staff? Oh, he's a friar, oops.
Ooh, I miss that game so much...
Several of my guildmates would swap into robes at the beginning of a PVP session just to mess with people this way.
'Squishy!' <sudden replacement of robe with breastplate> 'Aiiee! Crossdressing Paladin!'
"A monk!? - awesome! less worries against enemy casters!"
A Monk doesn't seem to need anyone else really either. So, given the examples of reaction to other character classes (given very tongue in cheek in the OP) what would provoke the other party members to say "Oh good now we can....." rather than "Great, a Monk, nice to meet you. Off you go lad and good luck."
Monks can get by without others - but monks are the one class that benefits most from any (static) help. Such as inspire courage, flanking, good-hope, etc - monks potency scales fastest among all the classes for this.
Monks do contribute a lot to the party though. You might think "fighter - great, somebody to tank for me"; but the truth is that a monk is better at tanking, drawing aggro, withstanding damage, and-so-forth. Okay, a barbarian can tank damage amazingly well with a massive HP pool and high DR - but he also tends to cost healing resources to recover from the damage that he takes.
Fighters *can* have of the highest ACs in the game if they put effort into it and build for it. Monk's have of the highest AC even without going out of your way to build their AC.
Monks are your best defense against enemy spellcasters. You don't want your fighter or barbarian to go against a prepared spellcaster - they'll get SoS or dominated or charmed and will just get in the way. The monk get's down to business and takes care of it.
The Monk can do the same for his fellows as a fighter does. He can be the "Meat Shield". Primary difference is that instead of taking every hit,he dodges more. Plus his personal healing adds to his resiliency. On a similar note,imagine that the party has just finished a battle. The cleric is making his rounds and healing everyone,but he can skip the monk because the monk can heal himself. So even though his healing is self only,it still helps the party by adding to the overall healing pool and allowing the cleric to save his for others. And @Cartigan,the Monk is an excellent trap trigger due to his awesome saves,spell resistance,and boosted AC.
Fighters tend to have good AC, and meatshield with low enough AC to get hit constantly are probably going to die so that idea is out the window.
The monk might not need the cleric's healing. IIRC the monk use ki point to activate his healing so it would really depend on resources and how bad the monk got hurt. It is not a given. Most clerics just channel anyway instead of using spells.
I am not antimonk here, but there is a difference between thing that normally happen, and things that might happen.
The institution of the Monk harks all the way back to the late, great, E. Gary Gygax. Without him none of my favourite hobby would be available. I may, with tongue firmly in cheek, take a sniff or two. I would, however, never even lick his lollipop, let alone "have a go".
Ew.
It's not the concept of monk that is the problem. It's the problem that the monk had to have a ton of special rules in order for it to fit into the concept of 3.X class design. By making all these special rules (like the flurry of blows mechanics), you get something that is notoriously hard to balance out. Sometimes the monk is too good at what he does. Sometimes the monk is pretty horrible at what he does. The extremes seem to be more extreme than other classes.
"A monk!? - awesome! less worries against enemy casters!"
A Monk doesn't seem to need anyone else really either. So, given the examples of reaction to other character classes (given very tongue in cheek in the OP) what would provoke the other party members to say "Oh good now we can....." rather than "Great, a Monk, nice to meet you. Off you go lad and good luck."Monks can get by without others - but monks are the one class that benefits most from any (static) help. Such as inspire courage, flanking, good-hope, etc - monks potency scales fastest among all the classes for this.
Monks do contribute a lot to the party though. You might think "fighter - great, somebody to tank for me"; but the truth is that a monk is better at tanking, drawing aggro, withstanding damage, and-so-forth. Okay, a barbarian can tank damage amazingly well with a massive HP pool and high DR - but he also tends to cost healing resources to recover from the damage that he takes.
Fighters *can* have of the highest ACs in the game if they put effort into it and build for it. Monk's have of the highest AC even without going out of your way to build their AC.
Monks are your best defense against enemy spellcasters. You don't want your fighter or barbarian to go against a prepared spellcaster - they'll get SoS or dominated or charmed and will just get in the way. The monk get's down to business and takes care of it.
Actually it is about even. A monk that cares more about AC will probably be dex based while one that wants to fight more will be str based.
Fighters and Barbarians can get decent will saves also, not like the monk, but enough to not make them easy targets.
A caster can deal with a monk also. He just can't approach him with spells targeting saves, just like he can't target a paladin's saves.
Pretty sure the Monk was Arneson, not Gygax.
Close. . .
Dungeons & Dragons (1974-1976)
The original monk character class was created by Brian Blume, inspired by the fictional martial arts of the Destroyer series of novels.[2] The monk was introduced in 1975's Blackmoor supplement.
Blackmoor is a supplementary rulebook for the original edition of the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game written by Dave Arneson (with a foreword by Gary Gygax). Its product designation is TSR 2004.
Pretty sure the Monk was Arneson, not Gygax.
Dave's candy treats are also sacred. *edit* Brian's too.
What DM was letting your belt stack with an ioun stone???
Close. . .
Dungeons & Dragons (1974-1976)
The original monk character class was created by Brian Blume, inspired by the fictional martial arts of the Destroyer series of novels.[2] The monk was introduced in 1975's Blackmoor supplement.
Blackmoor is a supplementary rulebook for the original edition of the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game written by Dave Arneson (with a foreword by Gary Gygax). Its product designation is TSR 2004.
Well Arneson was closer than Gygax.
"A monk!? - awesome! less worries against enemy casters!"
A Monk doesn't seem to need anyone else really either. So, given the examples of reaction to other character classes (given very tongue in cheek in the OP) what would provoke the other party members to say "Oh good now we can....." rather than "Great, a Monk, nice to meet you. Off you go lad and good luck."Monks can get by without others - but monks are the one class that benefits most from any (static) help. Such as inspire courage, flanking, good-hope, etc - monks potency scales fastest among all the classes for this.
Monks do contribute a lot to the party though. You might think "fighter - great, somebody to tank for me"; but the truth is that a monk is better at tanking, drawing aggro, withstanding damage, and-so-forth. Okay, a barbarian can tank damage amazingly well with a massive HP pool and high DR - but he also tends to cost healing resources to recover from the damage that he takes.
Fighters *can* have of the highest ACs in the game if they put effort into it and build for it. Monk's have of the highest AC even without going out of your way to build their AC.
Monks are your best defense against enemy spellcasters. You don't want your fighter or barbarian to go against a prepared spellcaster - they'll get SoS or dominated or charmed and will just get in the way. The monk get's down to business and takes care of it.
Monks can tank, but the fact they get missed so often because of their amazing AC means that the baddies are going to start trying to hit other people, and monks definitely do need to build towards AC if they want to contend with the fighter, it's a different build method, but nonetheless needs to be a focus of the build . Monks are super sweet but they are not a replacement for a spot in the Core4 imho
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I've played Monks often. Using Improved Grapple and Trip, I've taken down threats that I couldnt necessarily kill, but I kept them occupied long enough for someone else to do it. Plus I also acted as a scout if there wasnt a ranger or rogue available. Monks are also a Rogues best friend. Good for Flanking and Stunning Fist (Hello Sneak Attack!). Plus, why shouldnt you want someone who wont want most of the gear you guys find? (Except maybe the mage)
Inquisitor is a better Rogue's best friend, especially with teamwork feats.
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I like the Cross-Dressing-Wizard bit up above.
I also like the all monk party, that sounds wicked fun.
Trap springer, scout, and defenestrator are all roles our party's monks have taken in the past.
The endgame of Savage Tide wound up with a Huge Dwarf grapple-master and a Huge Dwarf Warblade murdering every single non-boss critter in one round. The BBEG's took longer, but only because of crazy DR or some specific defense.
Monks can tank, but the fact they get missed so often because of their amazing AC means that the baddies are going to start trying to hit other people, and monks definitely do need to build towards AC if they want to contend with the fighter, it's a different build method, but nonetheless needs to be a focus of the build.
Let's go ahead and combine this thread with the Antagonize feat thread. . .
Tanky, little-damage monk + Antagonize = ???
Just for the sake of clarity, the main thrust of my initial question was "what the Monk does FOR his fellow party members".
Well, what does a fighter do FOR his party members? Or a barbarian.
A Monk can heal himself, fight (and as some of the posts suggest is able to effectively neutralise any end of adventure Big Bad by himself), move himself through difficult terrain. He doesn't need weapons. I don't deny he's probably fun to play.
Fighters can fight.
I think the monk's winning out in that comparison.
A Monk doesn't seem to need anyone else really either.
So? Doesn't mean they can't work in a team.
There are hardly the only classes that can manage without anyone else.
On the other hand, their party interaction can be quite great:
And they not needing anyone?
Monks can be a party member just like everyone else.
"... a monk!"
Party response: "Whew, someone will live when our killer DM lays the smackdown", "Woo, maybe my rogue can actually snag some of the good weapons!", "Great, now I know someone will always be within reach if I get dropped".
Even if the BBEG breaks the grapple every turn (because a Monk's CMB is usually better than his CMD)
Are you including the monk's AC bonus from level and wisdom in his CMD? Because usually the CMD is much higher.
The extremes seem to be more extreme than other classes.
This is quite true. Monks need the most ability scores (maybe), but they definitely benefit from the most ability scores, as well as other bonuses (like any two-weapon fighter) to phenomenal extents.
One great thing about Pathfinder is that they have streamlined a lot of the monk's rules, particularly making flurry of blows equivalent (and non-stacking) with two-weapon fighting.
Basically, if the party sees an irresistible force bearing down on them, they can put their immovable monk in the way. They are the non-spell counter to whatever the DM throws at the group.
Monks can tank, but the fact they get missed so often because of their amazing AC means that the baddies are going to start trying to hit other people
Actually, they are going to start getting up and away from the monk without falling on their faces again.
Monks just don't buy into that "Can't keep a good man down" thing. That monk will be right next to you, daring you to attack him. You try, it's not easy, so you think "let's go for someone else". You move away, provoke an attack of opportunity (unless you waste actions and delay attacks), and that's when the monk trips you. So much for going away.
Or you do use withdraw. Double move away from the monk. He'll just use a single move action to move as far as you move with a double move, and trip you then.
Combat manoeuvres are a better way of "tanking" than anything else. This isn't WoW where the game forces computer-controlled "mobs" to act in a certain way. This game's monsters are controlled by an actual intelligence. Some GM's will play monsters or NPCs in a way that you can provoke them, but others will play by pure logic.
But physically preventing enemies from having a go at your friends still works.
Fighters and Barbarians can get decent will saves also, not like the monk, but enough to not make them easy targets.
Not easy. They need to go well out of their way to get half-decent will saves.
A caster can deal with a monk also. He just can't approach him with spells targeting saves, just like he can't target a paladin's saves.
So what else is there? Saves are out. So you go with touch spells. Doesn't work, either. While a caster's touch attacks are usually good enough to get the job done, their inferior BAB will hurt them against the class with the best touch AC around.
That leaves.... not much, really.
Even if the BBEG breaks the grapple every turn (because a Monk's CMB is usually better than his CMD)Are you including the monk's AC bonus from level and wisdom in his CMD? Because usually the CMD is much higher.
Plus, if they have a feat left, they'll get the one that ups their BAB to full for CMD. Defensive Manoeuvre Training it is, I think.
Fighters and Barbarians can get decent will saves also, not like the monk, but enough to not make them easy targets.Not easy. They need to go well out of their way to get half-decent will saves.
A caster can deal with a monk also. He just can't approach him with spells targeting saves, just like he can't target a paladin's saves.
So what else is there? Saves are out. So you go with touch spells. Doesn't work, either. While a caster's touch attacks are usually good enough to get the job done, their inferior BAB will hurt them against the class with the best touch AC around.
That leaves.... not much, really.
I would rather go well out of my way to get something done than have a gaping hole in my defense.
As to the second part are you really at a lost of how to deal with a monk with a caster, or are you trying to make a point that I am missing?
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The short answer is that if you sit down and ask the question "What is a monk going to do for ME?" you're probably going to answer yourself "not much." He's not great in social situations, can't heal you, probably won't be able to forge you a new sword, and won't mop up 15 gnolls in one round with a well-placed fireball. If you ask yourself "what can he do for the party?" the answer is "quite a lot."
Without getting deep into tactics, the monk is the most flexible at responding to a fight. He can grapple, trip, do non-lethal, move to flank, and doesn't need to worry about "uses per day" to keep up a steady stream (unlike a caster). At low levels the fighter in full-plate carrying a heavy shield is going to have more AC, but by level 4 the monk can at least match if not beat him for short bursts and by level 11 the monk easily has the AC of a fighter without having to give up striking potential.
A lot of the monk's other skills are highly situational- but so are everyone else's. Just know that NOONE is running away from your party if the monk doesn't want them to.
The short answer is that if you sit down and ask the question "What is a monk going to do for ME?" you're probably going to answer yourself "not much." He's not great in social situations, can't heal you, probably won't be able to forge you a new sword, and won't mop up 15 gnolls in one round with a well-placed fireball. If you ask yourself "what can he do for the party?" the answer is "quite a lot."
Without getting deep into tactics, the monk is the most flexible at responding to a fight. He can grapple, trip, do non-lethal, move to flank, and doesn't need to worry about "uses per day" to keep up a steady stream (unlike a caster). At low levels the fighter in full-plate carrying a heavy shield is going to have more AC, but by level 4 the monk can at least match if not beat him for short bursts and by level 11 the monk easily has the AC of a fighter without having to give up striking potential.
A lot of the monk's other skills are highly situational- but so are everyone else's. Just know that NOONE is running away from your party if the monk doesn't want them to.
Much of this is true. The monk is versatile so you have to be able to pick your spots. If you wanted to be dedicated to activity X then the monk is not for you. If you are a good player, and like to be the fill in the blank guy, then play a monk.
So, if anyone can tell me (other than his obvious sense of humour and good looks) what the Monk does for his fellow party members I believe there is space below...
Fastest with the mostest.
Monks can make scouts as good as a ranger or rogue.
They cannot hit as hard as a fighter, but they are better defensively.
They have some cool abilities.
The monk makes a great 'mobile reserve' in a party.
As to the second part are you really at a lost of how to deal with a monk with a caster, or are you trying to make a point that I am missing?
Oh, enlighten me!
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... They can use their mastery of combat manoeuvres to take someone out. Try to cast spells or swing your superexpensive sword you're super-specialised in when the monk keeps tripping or grappling you...
Let's not forget Disarm. If you Disarm when unarmed you can automatically pick up the disarmed weapon. So the monk takes your super-expensive sword off you... and runs away, waving it and calling out amusing insults... ;)
They cannot hit as hard as a fighter, but they are better defensively.
Only against magic.
They cannot hit as hard as a fighter, but they are better defensively.Only against magic.
No, against everything really.
Ehhhh... I'll admit I've never really looked at other people's characters and asked 'what good are they?'
I prefer looking at their character concept/personality and seeing how they'll mesh in the group rather than what their 'role' will be.
I WILL say that in 2E I just got finished with my favoritest character EVER, and if I made him in PF, he'd have been a monk.
I've never been fond of the whole 'ki' mental power crapfest associated with Monks... but my guy was basically an unarmed fighter/martial artist ala Jackie Chan/Jet li/Bruce lee/ chuck Norris... he'd use weapons if he needed the +s to hit something... but mostly just specialized in MASSIVE defense, and multiple attacks.
As our Minotaur warrior had to work a lot... He quickly became the primary warrior of the group.
he was AWESOME.
Sadly... as he was SO awesome, it's kind of ruined the chances of me ever playing a monk again.... And I REALLY liked some of the stuff they did with them in PF....
Monks are one of two things from the GM's perspective: your worst nightmare as [insert combat maneuver of hosing here] machines, or they are self-propelled field rations waitng to get eaten.
If the former, they are often a tactical lynchpin for the players "locking" the baddies up so that the players can easily rain death upon them.
No, against everything really.They cannot hit as hard as a fighter, but they are better defensively.Only against magic.
How are monks better defensively against physical attacks?
No, against everything really.They cannot hit as hard as a fighter, but they are better defensively.Only against magic.
Monks are the best non-magical defensive class if you never bother to make yourself capable of fighting.
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I have decided that Monks are, by far, the best class to use as a trap trigger.
Monks are scouts. They have some of the best (if not the best) survivability and escapability, and they can generally look like a normal unarmed person.
In combat, they are mobile enough to be a flanking buddy while also being sturdy enough to protect the casters.
They can self heal, have the highest saves, and get the AC right up there with any other class.
Add in ki stuff, and they are a nice jack of all trades class.
Their healing is one of those joke abilities.
And they can be a jack of everything but respectable offense.
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Their healing is one of those joke abilities.
And they can be a jack of everything but respectable offense.
With all the monk hate you seem to be spreading i am just wondering if you are only looking at it from a numbers angle and not from personal experience playing one. IMHO they are one of the funnest if not the funnest class to play.