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I was looking through the new spells and saw this:
Terrible Remorse
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close
Target 1 living creature
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes
You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save of deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creaturee saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow, can take no actions, and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class
Presumably, if it fails its save it inflicts damage on itself as its action on its turn. It's not explicitly stated but if it still got its actions it would mean that the more hindering effect would occur with a successful save, which makes no sense.
Furthermore, if you compare it with the spell Overwhelming Grief, it seems to be superior in ever way:
Overwhelming Grief
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close
Target 1 creature
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes
You cause a single opponent to become profoundly stricken with intense grief. He can take no actions, takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, and loses his Dexterity bonus (if any). He can attempt a new save each round to break the spell's effect.
Is there something I'm missing? It seems to me that Terrible Remorse on a victim successful save includes the effects that Overwhelming Grief inflicts with a failed save.
What levels are the spells?
What levels are the spells?
Overwhelming Grief is a Bard 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 4
Terrible Remorse is a Bard 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 4, Cleric 4, Inquisitor 3
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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The former spell is a goof. The effect on a succesful save (which is similar to overwhelming grief, but lacks the "lose Dex bonus to AC" part) is only supposed to last for one round.
Considering that, I see no issue with the latter spell. It has a similar but more potent effect, and a longer duration. Sounds ok to me?
The former spell is a goof. The effect on a succesful save (which is similar to overwhelming grief, but lacks the "lose Dex bonus to AC" part) is only supposed to last for one round.
Considering that, I see no issue with the latter spell. It has a similar but more potent effect, and a longer duration. Sounds ok to me?
Thanks, that clears things up!
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If I make my saving throw against terrible remorse (page 243), do I become paralyzed for the duration of the spell?
No. The spell is a bit unclear here. When you are targeted by terrible remorse you do not make a saving throw until your turn. On your turn, you must make a Will saving throw. If you make the saving throw, you are frozen with sorrow and can take no actions, but this causes the spell to end. If you fail the saving throw, you deal damage to yourself, but can otherwise act normally.
Update: Page 243, in the description of the terrible remorse spell, change the final sentence to read as follows.
If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends.
—Jason Bulmahn, yesterday
So harming yourself is a free action (at least as this spell go)?
So harming yourself is a free action (at least as this spell go)?If I make my saving throw against terrible remorse (page 243), do I become paralyzed for the duration of the spell?
No. The spell is a bit unclear here. When you are targeted by terrible remorse you do not make a saving throw until your turn. On your turn, you must make a Will saving throw. If you make the saving throw, you are frozen with sorrow and can take no actions, but this causes the spell to end. If you fail the saving throw, you deal damage to yourself, but can otherwise act normally.
Update: Page 243, in the description of the terrible remorse spell, change the final sentence to read as follows.
If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends.
—Jason Bulmahn, yesterday
What? So it's worse to make the save than it is to fail it? (I'd much rather deal myself 1d8+Str damage each round than I would lose a round) Can you link to the thread where you found that post?
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What? So it's worse to make the save than it is to fail it? (I'd much rather deal myself 1d8+Str damage each round than I would lose a round) Can you link to the thread where you found that post?
It's in the FAQ. Link
And yes, in my opinion the spell is still rather broken.
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What? So it's worse to make the save than it is to fail it? (I'd much rather deal myself 1d8+Str damage each round than I would lose a round) Can you link to the thread where you found that post?It's in the FAQ. Link
And yes, in my opinion the spell is still rather broken.
Actually, with those changes, the spell isn't overpowered any more(in the face of someone with knowledge of the spell enough to realize how it works) because you can just voluntarily fail your will save every round. Now it's just goofy because the effect on a successful save is much worse than failing the save.
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Assuming someone voluntarily fails the save every round, it's doing pretty solid damage, but it's spread out over time (at level 11, we're looking at 11d8+11xStr over 11 rounds, compared to 18d6 for Empower Scorching Ray seems pretty fair). So we're looking at a spell that really says something like:
The target takes 1d8+their Str modifier damage per round. The target may choose to attempt to end this effect by rolling a Will save. Success means that they must spend a full-round action, ending the effect of the spell. Failure means that the target continues taking damage, but no action is lost.
Quite powerful.
Its like a hold person with no save. You lose your actions either way, saving just makes you lose one round.
A pretty good way of taking down the bbg, keep him paralysed for the whole butchering ;)
Does the damage effect stack if someone casts it multiple times? Like a sorcerer spamming this thing 4 times in a row on a BBEG. So this means you either lose four rounds or after four rounds start taking 4d8 + 4 x str.
Target either loses all actions and gets damaged each round for the duration of the spell.
Or loses a round.So spamming a sole enemy, and they will be paralysed no matter what!
Target either loses all actions and gets damaged each round for the duration of the spell.
Or loses a round.So spamming a sole enemy, and they will be paralysed no matter what!
This is not the case. The spell has been errataed.
From d20pfsrd - Terrible Remorse:
If I make my saving throw against terrible remorse, do I become paralyzed for the duration of the spell?
No. The spell is a bit unclear here. When you are targeted by terrible remorse you do not make a saving throw until your turn. On your turn, you must make a Will saving throw. If you make the saving throw, you are frozen with sorrow and can take no actions, but this causes the spell to end. If you fail the saving throw, you deal damage to yourself, but can otherwise act normally.
[Source]
Official Update: In the description of the terrible remorse spell, change the final sentence to read as follows:
"If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends."
Certainly a poorly worded spell, however I think the intended operation is different (and I realize there has been errata):
Make a Will Save against the spell - if you fail, each round you must attempt a will save, or spend the round dealing 1d8+Str to yourself. If you succeed, you take no actions.
This would essentially be single target Confusion, with only "damage self" and "take no actions" as options, based on a Will save.
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This spell is way too overpowered, in my opinion. A 4th level spell that causes you to lose a round no matter what you do? I think I'll just have four 7th level clerics accompany all my high level encounters with nothing but this prepared for 4th level to take out every PC for a few rounds.
Seriously, I hate this spell, and house-ruled it in my own game (after a fight against a super strong wyvern became "Have the cleric cast that spell every round until we beat it." Ended up only taking 3 rounds, and the 13th level cleric had plenty of 4th level and higher slots against the CR 14 creature.) I'm pretty happy about most everything I see from Paizo's books, but this one is just dumb. Sorry Jason, I still <3 you :)
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Yes, this spell is too powerful. I have banned it in all my home games. We ran into this spell in PFS this weekend. It was in the Tier 12 campaign arc, Eyes of Ten. The party essentially ended a fight in one round against a 15th level barbarian because he made his save
When the party buys 5-6 scrolls of Terrible Remorse at (700 gp each), it negates everything the enemies can do if they aren't undead.
In part 3, they are in the arena with Skelg the Ripper, a 15th level barbarian. First round, Skelg goes 5th in initiative against a 7 character party.
They cast terrible remorse on him, he makes the save and now can't do anything for one round but stand there. Then, they take the Manacles of Cooperation from APG and the monk slaps it on him. There are still 3 more PCs with actions, including an alchemist that can do lots of goodness against the Behirs. Combat is now over.
And, since the priest is in the top of initiative order, every round he reads a new scroll or casts it from his prepared spells. My guy can MAKE 5 saves in a row but be unable to do anything for 5 rounds.
THIS IS PATHETIC for a 15th level barbarian is stupid broke.
Skelg MADE the save successfully. The way the spell reads, and the way the errata reads, if he MAKES the save he takes no action and has -2 to AC. Once they put on the Manacles of Cooperation in the first round, Skelg can't do anything else since the party isn't commanding him to do anything. He just becomes docile and stands there.
If I make a save, I shouldn't be rendered unable to do anything for a round. I don't know of any other spell off the top of my head where if I make the save, I am rendered ineffective. When a party can effectively take out a 15th level BBEG with a 4th level spell in the first round of combat when he MAKES his save, something just isn't right with the spell.
Luckily I was able to tie some of the party up with the 2 behirs to at least present a little combat encounter.
It is even more broken if the BBEG has no other mooks or other creatures on his side. But, I can see where a party can cast this and then all run up and stand around him while he is tripped and knocked prone. Next round when the spell wears off, if he tries to stand, he takes 5-6 attacks of opportunity.
PLEASE FIX THIS NOW.
I think you are misinterpretating the spell. You get one save when the spell is cast. If you pass that one you are good. No harm, no lost actions. If you fail the first save, then, on your following turns, you then take saves to either deal damage to yourself or do nothing.
This spell Isn't really much more powerful than a sleep spell.
I think you are misinterpretating the spell. You get one save when the spell is cast. If you pass that one you are good. No harm, no lost actions. If you fail the first save, then, on your following turns, you then take saves to either deal damage to yourself or do nothing.
This spell Isn't really much more powerful than a sleep spell.
No, that isn't true. Read again. Will save (partial), not (negates). There's no save to negate it. Each turn, you must either take 1d8+Str damage (if you fail) or lose your actions. If you fail the save you take damage but can move, if you succeed you're effectively dazed with -2 AC and the spell ends (according to Jason's errata).
It's a too strong spell. If someone in my game would want it, I'd allow it on a full-round casting, nothing less.
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I think you are misinterpretating the spell. You get one save when the spell is cast. If you pass that one you are good. No harm, no lost actions. If you fail the first save, then, on your following turns, you then take saves to either deal damage to yourself or do nothing.
This spell Isn't really much more powerful than a sleep spell.
As far as I can tell from the spell text and recent FAQ update, here's how it works.
Enemy caster's turn: Casts terrible remorse. You do not make a save against the spell at this time, as per Jason's FAQ explanation, though now would be the time to check SR.
Your next turn: You must make a Will saving throw against terrible remorse. If you pass, you can take no actions for 1 round and suffer -2 AC for one round, and the spell ends. If you fail, you deal 1d8+Str damage to yourself and can act normally - you DO NOT lose your turn in this case, as per the FAQ clarification. Since it doesn't say 'as a standard action you deal damage to yourself', you don't even lose that part of your turn - it's apparently a free action (as written, it's not even this; more of a 'non-action') to smack yourself about. The spell is still in effect on you.
Your future turns: If the spell is still in effect on you, you must save at the start of each of your turns. If you make a save, you end the spell, with the same loss of 1 turn as above. Each failed save is another 1d8+Str damage, and the spell continues.
Does this make failing saves against the spell better for certain foes? Yes. People with low Str or high hp can fail the save all day long and worry about the damage later.
However, a creature would need a Spellcraft check when this spell was cast upon them to recognise it and know its effects, it's not like a dire tiger would be able to know that failing the save is better than passing for them.
It's silly to have a spell with a greater game effect on a fail than on a pass, but it's certainly less overpowered than the previous, pre-FAQ readings.
BTW, now I want to make an emo bard.
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I agree, while it is now better, it is still broken. A perfect spell for PC's to use against ~50% of the BBEG's (being enchantment and all + SR). And any spell that is worse when you make the save is just wrong.
It isn't even too bad against the party as they usually have 3+ others to help out.
Losing a round of actions on a successful save vs. a party is pretty much doom.
I saw some people say you can choose to fail, and I know that rule, but does the victim know the consequences before the save? I have never had my GM tell me you can choose not to make this will save. It's make a save. And you pray you make it. And then you are cursing and wish you didn't? So wrong.
I feel bad for the example that was posted. I feel for you BBEG!
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I agree, while it is now better, it is still broken. A perfect spell for PC's to use against ~50% of the BBEG's (being enchantment and all + SR). And any spell that is worse when you make the save is just wrong.
It isn't even too bad against the party as they usually have 3+ others to help out.
Losing a round of actions on a successful save vs. a party is pretty much doom.
I saw some people say you can choose to fail, and I know that rule, but does the victim know the consequences before the save? I have never had my GM tell me you can choose not to make this will save. It's make a save. And you pray you make it. And then you are cursing and wish you didn't? So wrong.
I feel bad for the example that was posted. I feel for you BBEG!
As I mentioned upthread, the default assumption is that you're taking your save against any spells cast by hostile targets. However, a Spellcraft check can tell you what spell it is they are casting. At that point, if you succeed in identifying the spell, you're totally within your rights to voluntarily fail your save against it. Good wizard tactic, not so hot for iron-thewed fighter types.
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it is just a very poorly written and balanced spell, paizo goofed here and the errata doesn't make me unban the spell from my games
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** spoiler **
The spell is broken, but "f the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends." don't make him helpless.
So you can't put the manacles on him.Note that the definition of helpless is quite different:
"Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets."
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** spoiler **
The spell is broken, but "f the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends." don't make him helpless.
So you can't put the manacles on him.Note that the definition of helpless is quite different:
"Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets."
Yeah, I was so flustered over Terrible Remorse that I misread the manacles. However, they could still put manacles if they wish. He would not have been affected by the magic but still have to spend a round to try and break them in a prone position and still be screwed. The spell is seriously out of whack power-wise.
I think you are misinterpretating the spell. You get one save when the spell is cast. If you pass that one you are good. No harm, no lost actions. If you fail the first save, then, on your following turns, you then take saves to either deal damage to yourself or do nothing.
This is how I believe the spell was intended. [Thanks for wording it clearer.]
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Party used the un-errata'd version on a purple worm last night. It was the first time I'd ever seen it, so I interpreted it that you save every round to see whether you hurt yourself (as a free action) or do nothing.
We all thought it was hilarious that it was better to fail the save than succeed on it.
The purple worm with his +4 Will save failed most of the time, and we also loved the idea that a massive worm, filled with remorse, was self-harming at 1d8+12 per round whilst trying to pound the party to pieces.
Is there anything in the RAW to suggest purple worms are immune to [emotion] spells? In my opinion the only emotions they feel are "hungry" and "not-quite-so-hungry".
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It's still not as powerful as Bestow Curse, where you permanently suffer a 50% chance to do nothing at all every single round. Also, doing nothing doesn't mean you are helpless, so there isn't any coup de grace, and you o not lose your dex bonus, so no sneak attacks or precision damage bonuses that rely on it.
If you make your save against Bestow Curse, what negative effects does your character suffer?
If I make my save vs. Terrible Remorse, I lose my entire round of actions. So, then I am able to be surrounded by three or four damage dealers who can deal out 60+ damage because of the party level, one trips me, and then the rest can either hit my worse AC or pummel me when I stand, or can go straight for the pin and tied up condition so I am done for combat. Should I be pinned and tied up, and then coup de graced because I MADE a save? There are even some monk abilities that allow you to go for the pin as a secondary action if you make a grapple. So, I could make my save, be grappled, pinned and tied up all in the same round. Even if I have feats that would allow me to attempt to reverse the grapple if the attacker fails, I can't use it.
Also, if the party repeats Terrible Remorse for four rounds, and I save all four rounds, then I have 100% chance to do nothing at all every single round. What happened to you when the party repeats Bestow Curse for four rounds and you made your save every time? That's right, you get to act normally all four of those rounds.
Is there any other spell you can think of, where if a character makes a save, they become useless?
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I did find it a bit entertaining that succeeding in the saving throw for Terrible Remorse is actually worse than failing it. I'd much rather take a bit of damage here and there than not be able to act for a round on a successful save.
Example of brokenness, even with the FAQ: Four member party, each is able to cast terrible remorse. Fighting a creature such as a Kraken (CR 18), the party cycles through with one member casting terrible remorse each round, shutting the creature down, while the rest of the party wails on it. This still works just fine even if the party is around 10th level.
Honestly, I see no reason why a typical CR 20 creature cannot be killed by a 7th level party when *someone* in the party can penetrate its DR/regen if the party uses multiple castings of Terrible Remorse. At least as long as it doesn't have SR and is not immune to mind effects.
Yeah, Terrible Remorse still needs to be fixed - maybe making the target *staggered* rather than unable to act if they succeed in the save, hmmm Jason?
Now to get enough scrolls of it to keep the tarrasque busy hating itself until it goes back to sleep.
NNNNOOOOO my village will now be destroyed.
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I have a question. Where does it say that hurting yourself (1D8 + ST) on failed will save does not take any actions. All actions usually take some time (complex, std, free whatever....).
My understanding is that hitting yourself would be a std action ?
EDIT : OK i've seen the FAQ ... But well what a terribly written spell.
Anyhow i've never seen a spell where passing the ST is worse than failing...