My players are currently fighting a Dread Wraith.
The creature is incorporeal, and says only magical weapons can hit it.
One of my players has a crossbow +3 with the sonic (+1d6 sonic) affix on it, and a greater crystal of fire attached (+1d6 fire). If I'm understanding the descriptions of the affix and crystal correctly, they add elemental damage respectively, but not magical damage, such as with fireball. This says to me that the most the player with the crossbow can deal is 1d8 (crossbow damage) +3 per fired bolt.
Is this correct?
But then I got to thinking, and the actual damage from the bolt is physical. So technically, only +3 damage would be inflicted with each hit.
But then I got to thinking even more, and technically, the bolt itself is non-magical, only the crossbow...
Help! Not sure what to do!
Taem take a deep breath and stop over thinking. The damage is energy damage -- it comes from magic. The damage from the crossbow bolt is also magical damage -- it is enhanced by the crossbow when fired -- the rules state this.
So the player will roll his to hit roll, he'll hit, he'll roll all his damage then half it and apply that to the dread wraith.
However if anyone in the party is really smart they'll simply cast daylight or sunburst.
All of it counts. It is halved.
It takes all the damage and then halve it.
Incorporeal are damaged from all magical forms of attack, including spells... which could be doing Sonic damage. The only caveat is that if it is from a corporeal source then the damage is halved. The one exception is force damage, which does full damage.
Or an ectoplasmic spell.
Thanks guys. Life saver! We ended the session a little early. The dread wraith managed to spawn two additional normal wraiths from monsters the characters summoned to protect them from the wraiths - oh the irony!
Anyways, after a little research, I think you are all wrong and right at the same time!
From the Pathfinder SRD
Incorporeal (Ex)An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water affects incorporeal Undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature (except for channel energy). Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
From what I see here, any magical spell or magical attack that is based on corporeal means, such as elemental or physical damage, is reduced by half, but pure magic damage does full damage. This means his crossbow actually deals 1d8 (crossbow: physical) + 1d6 (sonic: elemental) + 1d6 (fire: elemental) +3 (crossbow mastery: gains +1/2 dex modifier to damage) and all of this damage is divided by two. THEN you add in the +3 magical damage from the crossbow itself because THIS is not divisible, since it is non-corporeal. Anyways, this is how we resolved combat for this.
As for elemental fire and sonic being magical, I think you are incorrect. The fireball spell specifically says it is "magical fire", whereas the fire from the greater crystal specifically says it is only "elemental fire". Not sure about the sonic, but I believe it is also elemental and not magical by nature, perhaps emanating from the elemental plane of energy to get its power?
Thanks guys. Life saver! We ended the session a little early. The dread wraith managed to spawn two additional normal wraiths from monsters the characters summoned to protect them from the wraiths - oh the irony!
Anyways, after a little research, I think you are all wrong and right at the same time!
From the Pathfinder SRD
Incorporeal (Ex)An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water affects incorporeal Undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature (except for channel energy). Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
From what I see here, any magical spell or magical attack that is based on corporeal means, such as elemental or physical damage, is reduced by half, but pure magic damage does full damage. This means his crossbow actually deals 1d8 (crossbow: physical) + 1d6 (sonic: elemental) + 1d6 (fire: elemental) +3 (crossbow mastery: gains +1/2 dex modifier to damage) and all of this damage is divided by two. THEN you add in the +3 magical damage from the crossbow itself because THIS is not divisible, since it is non-corporeal. Anyways, this is how we resolved combat for this.
As for elemental fire and sonic being magical, I think you are incorrect. The fireball spell specifically says it is "magical fire", whereas the fire from the greater crystal specifically says it is only "elemental fire". Not sure about the sonic, but I believe it is also elemental and not magical by nature, perhaps emanating from the elemental plane of energy to get its power?
Add up all the Non Sonic Damage and Half it It is all Magical because the Bow is magical. Then roll the Sonic Damage and half that (its magic energy damage) really if the Dread Wraith has no resistances you could add it all up and just half it.
But long story short is the +3 part of the bow makes everythig magical ntot just the +3 part
|
Summoned monsters don't hang around as corpses when they die so shouldn't really have spawned as wraiths. On "death" they are shunted back to wherever they were summoned from and in fact have not really died unless it was a calling spell. The player has done something like summon an aspect or avatar of the creature. It is incapable of truly dying while summoned.
Thanks guys. Life saver! We ended the session a little early. The dread wraith managed to spawn two additional normal wraiths from monsters the characters summoned to protect them from the wraiths - oh the irony!
Anyways, after a little research, I think you are all wrong and right at the same time!
From the Pathfinder SRD
Incorporeal (Ex)An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water affects incorporeal Undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature (except for channel energy). Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
From what I see here, any magical spell or magical attack that is based on corporeal means, such as elemental or physical damage, is reduced by half, but pure magic damage does full damage. This means his crossbow actually deals 1d8 (crossbow: physical) + 1d6 (sonic: elemental) + 1d6 (fire: elemental) +3 (crossbow mastery: gains +1/2 dex modifier to damage) and all of this damage is divided by two. THEN you add in the +3 magical damage from the crossbow itself because THIS is not divisible, since it is non-corporeal. Anyways, this is how we resolved combat for this.
As for elemental fire and sonic being magical, I think you are incorrect. The fireball spell specifically says it is "magical fire", whereas the fire from the greater crystal specifically says it is only "elemental fire". Not sure about the sonic, but I believe it is also elemental and not magical by nature, perhaps emanating from the elemental plane of energy to get its power?
I don't see how you draw that ruling from the bolded line. It specifically says that spells and magic weapons do half damage. Your interpretation halves the non-magical and elemental damage, while leaving the enhancement bonus unhalved.
The way it works (and you're free to house-rule it differently), is that anything that would bypass DR/magic does half damage, and anything that wouldn't does no damage. Shooting a crossbow bolt from magical crossbow makes the bolt with all the non-elemental damage it does a magic weapon, and it'll do it's full damage to a monster with DR/magic (it doesn't do 1d8+3(crossbow mastery), subtract the amount of DR, then add +3 from the magic). Likewise, it'll do it's full damage (halved) to an incorporeal monster. The elemental damage (which bypasses DR/magic because it's elemental damage) is delivered separately, and is also halved unless it's force damage, the same way spells are.
I don't see how you draw that ruling from the bolded line. It specifically says that spells and magic weapons do half damage. Your interpretation halves the non-magical and elemental damage, while leaving the enhancement bonus unhalved.
The way it works (and you're free to house-rule it differently), is that anything that would bypass DR/magic does half damage, and anything that wouldn't does no damage. Shooting a crossbow bolt from magical crossbow makes the bolt with all the non-elemental damage it does a magic weapon, and it'll do it's full damage to a monster with DR/magic (it doesn't do 1d8+3(crossbow mastery), subtract the amount of DR, then add +3 from the magic). Likewise, it'll do it's full damage (halved) to an incorporeal monster. The elemental damage (which bypasses DR/magic because it's elemental damage) is delivered separately, and is also halved unless it's force damage, the same way spells are.
Right, I actually ruled that way initially because I figured, "if the weapon has a "+" on it, it's a magical weapon... so all damage from it is magical." And then I halved the elemental damage. But then I started over-thinking it and realized that the elemental damage was not magical like a fireball is, but elemental as per its own description, and also realized that the physical attack of the weapon is physical, not magical. The "+" from the magic supposedly helps you hit better by aiming more true, thus the +attack/damage, so the weapon itself does not do magical damage, but physical damage enhanced by a better strike from the magic itself. Thus the only real magical damage is from the "+" itself! Anyways, I think your deciphering is correct to the letter of the law, but I think mine makes more sense in the game... and anyways, it's making the battle last a bit longer also :D .
One more question:
The Dread Wraith was taking a bit of damage, so the DW and it's spawn, being above average intelligence, went down into the earth waiting for the wizards multiple Ball Lightening spells duration to end, then both of them came up from the ground and attacked another summon, but this time I ruled since they are incorporeal, they occupied the same space as said creature with the intention of giving themselves 50% cover, so if they were attacked, there would be a 50% chance to hit them, and a 50% chance to hit the summon.
I see nothing in the rules that says incorporeal creatures can't occupy the same space as corporeal creatures, so do you think I did this right?
I think it was allowed in 3.5 though, and the definition has not changed since then. If the wording is the game the ability should work the same.
Since Incorporeal creatures can pass through things there is nothing stating that it can't stay there(inside of a creature). The animal should be smart enough to move though. The incorporeal monster should also provoke an attack of opportunity for trying to enter the summon creature's square.
One note: incorporeality is also bypassed by channel energy. See the Bestiary errata.
Well, I guess I had already made up my mind before I even wrote that post, so I'm a bit jaded. The monster they are fighting is this one from the d20 pathfinder srd: Link . I was not about to let them fight a CR 11 monster and defeat it so easily! One attack a round for a CR 11 monster seems a bit low. They are making short work of it [the dread wraith] without using these type of tactics, so I had to improvise.
Thanks for all the input guys!
Given how wraiths work, a swarm of ordinary wraiths can be much more dangerous than a single wraith of the equivalent CR.
It really depends on that fort save, though. 1d6 con drain can be really painful - moreso than any ordinary attack. An average roll can deal 20 unhealable damage to an 10th level character (at least unhealable in combat). To a fighter with 100 health (which is on the high end for a 10th level character), that's an average of 1/5 of their maximum hp gone per failed fort save, and each failed save makes the next one harder. Target someone squishy with a low fort save (which is easy to do with spring attack from inside the wall), and they'll go down fast. Giving them more than one attack would be extremely deadly, at DC 25.