The counterpoint, however, is that every time I read a post where someone says "Paizo should make an Epic sourcebook" I see wasted development resources and a material that I will not purchase. In 25 years of gaming, the # of campaigns I've run or played in that went above level 20 = ZERO.
Personally, I've never gotten the fascination with the whole oriental adventures thing. It left me flat in AD&D, and nothing's changed since. However, I do comprehend that there's a lot of support for it out there.
High level adventures are the same way. There's always someone out there who says "I'll never use that - it's a complete waste." Just like OA is for me.
The main difference is that I don't intend to spend any time saying that Paizo shouldn't make oriental support material. They should. It doesn't mean it's something I personally want, but heck, it's like movies. Just because I don't ever intend to watch The Notebook doesn't mean it shouldn't be made - it just means I'm not the audience.
And from what I see, there are a lot of people who desire high level material and are willing to pay for it. Possibly even more than are clamoring for psionics. Probably not as much as for far-eastern stuff, but who knows. Sure, there's a lot of people who say they'll never use it, but like I said before, how many people will use the cavalier class or the gunslinger class? There's a lot of niche material out there, and that's a good thing - the more variety there is in the Pathfinder rule set, the more likely it will contain what someone wants and the stronger it will be.
I think the mistake people make is thinking that just because something is published, they have to use it.
So you will not even bother trying to read it and see how they did it? The wotc epic rules were awful. So awful that after 3 campaigns that went to epic levels we stopped using those rules and just multiclassed.
You wouldn't even read the module and see how they did it? Maybe you would like it actualy, and would want to run it.
Maybe the AP would be awesome, and you and your players would have immense fun fighting very powerful creatures and changing the course of history, not for one country or world but for an entire plane? It could be crazy fun.
Honestly? Seriously? No.
As stated previously, I've never run or played in such a game in my entire time gaming.
While it's an unfair perception, the gamers I've encountered who have played in such campaigns and told me of those adventures/campaigns snuffd out evey a passing interest in such things. They pretty much come across as the worst kind of power-gaming, wish-fulfillment, and Monty Haul gaming (hey guys, I just b-slapped THOR with a critical hit!!! Yeah, I thought a guy like Odin would put up more of a fight..."). Reading the number of posts clamoring to be able to stat and slay gods hasn't improved the perception.
The war of time and money. If I was single, had no kids, and a less demanding job, sure I'd buy a book out of curiosity. Those days are gone. Today, I buy things I'm going to use. I run a campaign for a group of long time players and a couple of campaigns for my kids and their friends. I'm not going to run a one shot that will require me to A) read, understand, and absorb epic-level rules, B) prepare or read a module that would be required for such a one-shot, and C) take precious gaming time that's already hard to come by and spend it on a style and type of play that holds zero interest to me.
If I've got a spare $40 burning a hole in my wallet, I'll spend it on other Golarion/PF content, 3PP products, a video game or something else rather than an epic-themed product. Doing so would be a waste of money (in my personal situation) and runs counter to my efforts of teaching my kids to handle money responsibly.
So no, when I say I won't buy it, I'm not doing it to take my ball and go home. I'm doing it because I have no interest and can't justify it. Since I'd prefer to continue to spend that money with Paizo, I'm letting them know that's the case.
As stated previously, I've never run or played in such a game in my entire time gaming.
While it's an unfair perception, the gamers I've encountered who have played in such campaigns and told me of those adventures/campaigns snuffd out evey a passing interest in such things.
This all holds pretty true for me as well.
Even just descriptions of epic play rankle me — but then again, getting pinned into a long description of any had-to-be-there gaming exploits is excruciating.
Anyway, I really like the core rules micro-treatment of 20th+, and that's why what I want to see is a high-level guide that expands on this method instead of a whole book about epic-epic-epic.
So, despite my spiritual camaraderie with BPorter on the issue, I obviously think a different take is warranted. Instead of a book about levels I will never play, I want a book that removes obstacles to playing at those levels. My PCs are at 12th right now, and I could already use some more tools and advice. I would love a book that would GET me to 20th, and once I was there, give me about 20-30 pages of material for running beyond 20th.
BPorter, would you support a high-level play guide that had just one mid-sized chapter on post 20th play?
So, despite my spiritual camaraderie with BPorter on the issue, I obviously think a different take is warranted. Instead of a book about levels I will never play, I want a book that removes obstacles to playing at those levels. My PCs are at 12th right now, and I could already use some more tools and advice. I would love a book that would GET me to 20th, and once I was there, give me about 20-30 pages of material for running beyond 20th.BPorter, would you support a high-level play guide that had just one mid-sized chapter on post 20th play?
Where I do agree that it would be nice to see help/support for levels in the teens to 20th level, I would more like to see this as the 'mid-sized chapter' and the majority of the book dealing with post 20th level play.
As stated previously, I've never run or played in such a game in my entire time gaming.
While it's an unfair perception, the gamers I've encountered who have played in such campaigns and told me of those adventures/campaigns snuffd out evey a passing interest in such things.
This all holds pretty true for me as well.
Even just descriptions of epic play rankle me — but then again, getting pinned into a long description of any had-to-be-there gaming exploits is excruciating.
Anyway, I really like the core rules micro-treatment of 20th+, and that's why what I want to see is a high-level guide that expands on this method instead of a whole book about epic-epic-epic.
So, despite my spiritual camaraderie with BPorter on the issue, I obviously think a different take is warranted. Instead of a book about levels I will never play, I want a book that removes obstacles to playing at those levels. My PCs are at 12th right now, and I could already use some more tools and advice. I would love a book that would GET me to 20th, and once I was there, give me about 20-30 pages of material for running beyond 20th.
BPorter, would you support a high-level play guide that had just one mid-sized chapter on post 20th play?
A book that addresses 15-20th level play? Sure, because although I may rarely game there, the possibility at least exists. If a chapter is dedicated to epic/mythic level play, it wouldn't invalidate the purchase for me any more than the Gunslinger is going to for Ultimate Combat.
Where I do agree that it would be nice to see help/support for levels in the teens to 20th level, I would more like to see this as the 'mid-sized chapter' and the majority of the book dealing with post 20th level play.
...and now you've lost me. :)
Where I do agree that it would be nice to see help/support for levels in the teens to 20th level, I would more like to see this as the 'mid-sized chapter' and the majority of the book dealing with post 20th level play....and now you've lost me. :)
Me too.
Where I do agree that it would be nice to see help/support for levels in the teens to 20th level, I would more like to see this as the 'mid-sized chapter' and the majority of the book dealing with post 20th level play....and now you've lost me. :)
Sorry. :)
I was just saying I agree teen levels should get some help/support, but I would much rather see that be the mid-sized chapter and the majority of the book be post 20th level content/help.
I hope that was clearer. :)
How about 1/3 support and new options for players aimed at levels 13-20, 1/3 support for GMs crafting world shaking challenges for high-level PC's, and 1/3 new rules to take the game past 20th level for PCs and GMs?
Compromise? :)
Sounds pretty sweet to me!
I'm wary of going from what looks like a page at most in the CRB to an entire 200+ page volume on just post-20th play.
If a high level guide included a 30-100 page treatment on post-20th and those rules turned out to be awesome, then I think people would be more ready for a dedicated post-20th volume. Plus, by that point, they'd have been using the pre-20th high levels and demand for the latter book would increase!
I doubt they would ever spend 6 months on an epic adventure path, that's way too niche for their bread and butter line. On the other hand, supplements are called that for a reason: They are supplemental. Once UC comes out, the main game will have quite a lot of support for standard playing. Now the rules will start to drift into more specialized areas. You don't have to buy them all, it's ok. As long as enough people buy it, it will be worth doing.
If they make an epic module you don't like, that's ok. I doubt most people run every module in the modules line. It's just not feasible unless your gaming group just does lots of one shots.
Anyway, I would think it would be better to get the majority of the post 20 level content into one book so that those who didn't want it can avoid it easily. And those that do want it can pick it up.
Me too.
Where I do agree that it would be nice to see help/support for levels in the teens to 20th level, I would more like to see this as the 'mid-sized chapter' and the majority of the book dealing with post 20th level play....and now you've lost me. :)
I think that because you don't want and don't think you need high level content, that you're underestimating the size of the group that does want such content.
There's another factor, too.
I've had to face the realization that as Paizo publishes more and more material, the odds that I'll ever use every single thing they publish are pretty darn slim - I'd have to play through an adventure path a month, PLUS a module every other month or so (or whatever the publishing schedule is), and in addition write enough of my own material to use all of the stuff they're writing in bestiaries and NPC guides and location sourcebooks, etc.
Not gonna happen - definitely not for me and likely not for most people. So why all the fireworks about one book? Or, more realistically, one book plus a few modules and perhaps part of an adventure path?
Once they've got Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat under their belt, they'll still be publishing 2-3 books a year - and they'll likely be ever more niche publications.
I really have a hard time seeing any sort of problem here.
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I've had to face the realization that as Paizo publishes more and more material, the odds that I'll ever use every single thing they publish are pretty darn slim ...
Once they've got Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat under their belt, they'll still be publishing 2-3 books a year - and they'll likely be ever more niche publications.
I really have a hard time seeing any sort of problem here.
I guess what keeps the high-level worthies at Paizo awake at night is planning what those 2-3 books in the RPG subscription should be to keep most folks subscribing, rather than just picking up one or none of them.
I guess what keeps the high-level worthies at Paizo awake at night is planning what those 2-3 books in the RPG subscription should be to keep most folks subscribing, rather than just picking up one or none of them.
I've had to face the realization that as Paizo publishes more and more material, the odds that I'll ever use every single thing they publish are pretty darn slim ...
Once they've got Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat under their belt, they'll still be publishing 2-3 books a year - and they'll likely be ever more niche publications.
I really have a hard time seeing any sort of problem here.
I'd also guess that the rulebooks aren't really their bread and butter - I believe I've heard that their bread and butter is the adventure paths.
They've got a big product line though - rulebooks are only a fraction of it, and at 3 rulebooks a year, I'd say it's a small fraction compared to the sum total of Adventure Paths, modules, GameMastery cards, flip mats, map packs, Pathfinder Tales and Planet Stories.
I think what would be really cool is if they could work with a board game designer to come out with a board game version of Pathfinder. Something dirt simple that has the flavor but is in no way an RPG. It's funny, there was an old TSR game called Fantasy Forest that is actually a pretty darn good game, and at its core it's really just a ramped up version of Candyland with D&D cartoon imagery.
The beginner set is awesome, but I think it's almost like preaching to the choir - once that's out I'd like to see something else that isn't trying to be actual Pathfinder rules, and is simpler than House on Haunted Hill or that sort of thing.
Anyways, all of this has nothing to do with an above-20th-level rulebook :)
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I think what would be really cool is if they could work with a board game designer to come out with a board game version of Pathfinder. Something dirt simple that has the flavor but is in no way an RPG. It's funny, there was an old TSR game called Fantasy Forest that is actually a pretty darn good game, and at its core it's really just a ramped up version of Candyland with D&D cartoon imagery.
Ooh, nice idea. Imagine if they could come up with something as cool as Warlock of Firetop Mountain, or Talisman...
Anyways, all of this has nothing to do with an above-20th-level rulebook :)
Yeah. We now return you to your scheduled programming.
A book focusing on high level and mythic level play is a must buy for me. My campaign is getting closer and closer to epic level, and I'd personally love to use official rules rather than something I have to make up.
15th level play and higher is a great point to start at, rather than immediately at level 21. A lot of assumptions start to change at or prior to that level, AC moving from a 'chance to negate hits' to a 'chance to negate power attack and iterative attacks', saves start to be passed with ease, etc.
I'd also like to see stats for gods. Paizo, in Dungeon magazine, made use of the terrible epic levels and wonky god rules to produce an incredible standoff with Kyuss in the Age of Worms, and an encounter with Demogorgon in the Savage Tide. James Jacobs wrote a really fun adventure with a sperm whale druid that 'unlocked' epic for characters.
Don't tell me that Paizo couldn't do even better with epic when they had the chance to create the ruleset they were using for the super high level stuff in the first place.
I'd also like to see stats for gods. Paizo, in Dungeon magazine, made use of the terrible epic levels and wonky god rules to produce an incredible standoff with Kyuss in the Age of Worms, and an encounter with Demogorgon in the Savage Tide. James Jacobs wrote a really fun adventure with a sperm whale druid that 'unlocked' epic for characters.
Don't tell me that Paizo couldn't do even better with epic when they had the chance to create the ruleset they were using for the super high level stuff in the first place.
Trust.
"Epic" is a trigger word for people that brings about memories of violated trust.
I trust Paizo, and specifically James Jacobs, to makes sure that the rules get used right. Everything he has said so far about post-20th play gives me good faith.
I trust Paizo, and specifically James Jacobs, to makes sure that the rules get used right. Everything he has said so far about post-20th play gives me good faith.
Definitely. He has a good track record, and Paizo doesn't have the same issues as WotC did with internal consistency. (Looking at you CR 19 Juiblex vs CR 20 'aspect of Bel')
Sorry. :)
I was just saying I agree teen levels should get some help/support, but I would much rather see that be the mid-sized chapter and the majority of the book be post 20th level content/help.
I hope that was clearer. :)
No, you were ok. I was unclear.
That format would put such a book back in the "not-buy" category for me. Sorry.
Sorry. :)
I was just saying I agree teen levels should get some help/support, but I would much rather see that be the mid-sized chapter and the majority of the book be post 20th level content/help.
I hope that was clearer. :)
No, you were ok. I was unclear.
That format would put such a book back in the "not-buy" category for me. Sorry.
Which is fine. It is usually more important from a business standpoint to judge how many people would buy a book than would not.
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I think there is a misunderstanding here.
How I read what BPorter, Evil Lincoln et al are saying, and how I feel as well, is that a book that focuses on more than post-20th play is much more likely to get us to buy it. I don't think that anyone is saying "Don't publish a certain kind of book". More like "I would prefer a book that focuses on... "
And feedback that talks about ways to increase sales is a great way to increase the likelihood of it getting published, and maybe even shorten the timeframe.
While I personally have no interest in playing 20+ (or even 10 or 6+) Pathfinder I'd still gobble the rules up just to see how Paizo handles it.
Assuming that the Beginner Box is the foundation of a EL5 game (with simplified rules as well) I'd rather see that built upon for L6+ EL5 play -- but I know that's not likely.
So, anyway, while not into high-level play I'm still very curious. That is assuming, of course, that it doesn't delay yummy Golarion books for Vudra, Arcadia, etc. as well.
While I personally have no interest in playing 20+ (or even 10 or 6+) Pathfinder I'd still gobble the rules up just to see how Paizo handles it.
That's pretty much where I was when the ELH came out. It was damn cool, and everyone in my group bought it, yet we had absolutely no use for it, other than the enjoyment of reading it.
But then again, isn't that true of every single piece of fiction in the world? It has no use, it's just for the enjoyment of reading. Kind of like all the Star Wars d6 material I have.
Assuming that the Beginner Box is the foundation of a EL5 game (with simplified rules as well) I'd rather see that built upon for L6+ EL5 play -- but I know that's not likely.
My guess is that this is wishful thinking - I can't see them desiring to split the rule set in two. I'm betting that it's closer to "we'll only include the rules necessary for L1-5 play, and even then we'll gloss over a few."
So, anyway, while not into high-level play I'm still very curious. That is assuming, of course, that it doesn't delay yummy Golarion books for Vudra, Arcadia, etc. as well.
I may be mistaken, but the schedules for hardcover rulebooks (which this is likely to fall under) are separate from the player companion and setting books, and it's unlikely to have much impact.
I do and will support a Mythic Adventures book.
I think there is a misunderstanding here.
How I read what BPorter, Evil Lincoln et al are saying, and how I feel as well, is that a book that focuses on more than post-20th play is much more likely to get us to buy it. I don't think that anyone is saying "Don't publish a certain kind of book". More like "I would prefer a book that focuses on... "
And feedback that talks about ways to increase sales is a great way to increase the likelihood of it getting published, and maybe even shorten the timeframe.
A good point, and something to keep in mind is that "'mythic" 21+ play really beings as early as 18th when it comes it NPCs and challenges. An Epic encounter for 18+ characters means CRs of 21 or higher, which in turn could mean classed NPCs above 20 levels. True the actually challenges at such high levels get more difficult to call but it stands that at the exteam end of Core play you can already glimps into Epic, like standing at the event horizon of black hole.
=====
Epic games played: 2 (from 1st to around 25th, meat grinder fashion from 1-20)
Epic games run: 1 (starting at 25th as a 4 session going away game for a group member)
I would like to see some kind of past 20 play, preferably with demi-god level ending. I enjoyed the 2e take on High-Level games and used to plot plots at that level as the DM back in that edition.
I'm going to make two seemingly contradictory statements in support of an ELH, so bear with me if I sound like I haven't thought this through.
1) The ONLY high-level games I've ever played were in the bad old days of youthful exuberance in the 70s, and every campaign I've tried to play in subsequent systems has fallen apart over player schedules and politics long before we reached epic levels and had to start from square one every couple of years resulting in zero actual Epic level playing experience.
2) I'm late to the whole Pathfinder party partly BECAUSE of the whole Adventure Path structure of modules in which you are intended to play 'just these six modules' (bordering on linear play, I thought, until I started reading them) in which you go from 1st to 15th level and are supposed to just 'stop' that campaign and pick up all over again with another for the next path? That always sounded like more of what was frustrating me year-after-year with the groups I've been in.
The fact that Pathfinder not only had no modules above 20th level, but no FRAMEWORK above 20th in case I wanted to work-up my own stuff to continue play, scared me off for the longest time because it felt like if I didn't want to "hit it and quit" (as James Brown would've put it) like their adventure paths were doing, the system itself would eventually let me down. I get everyone's arguments about a lack of interest in playing those levels, but when I play I'm always hoping to hit one past the bleachers and just keep running, and when I know in advance that's not really going to be possible, it discourages me as it has done for the whole Pathfinder line until just this year (okay, I was wrong, and I'm buying up all the stuff I missed out on, but I can't be the only one who didn't want to sign-up for a closed-ended game). An ELH would clear a hurdle for people like me ... even if our games STILL fall apart long before we can take advantage of those rules. You don't need to ever reach the North Star to steer by it.
Secondly, I agree that a major failing of most Epic Level modules I've seen elsewhere is that they shoehorn-in epic threats previously undiscovered. This is hard to swallow and undercuts the credibility of a threat that should have been unimaginable to oppose in your earlier career. (Personally, I think Epic quests should shift to only occasional combat and present skill challenges of the impossible, but then I'm into skills more than most). But to design for a good epic level challenge means institutionalizing a threat from day one and presenting it as a fact of life that everyone has to work around throughout their careers, which means having a an ELH framework whether or not you are actually playing at an epic level so that the challenges aren't shoehorned in. If I did it my way, I'd saddle 21st level players with rulership of the world's largest kingdom embroiled in 2 1/2 wars and a spiraling economy and tell them to have at it, kill whoever they like, but their problems aren't going to be embodied by any archetypal foe whose death makes their problems go away, so no need for bigger monsters. What would help is a company like Paizo stepping up to give both me and players a little juice to tackle challenges suitable to a level of play where it takes more than killing monsters to carry the day. That would be the kind of ELH I want whether I get beyond 15th-20th level or not.
I think that everybody who runs around saying "Yes! Epic rules! Please!" should answer two questions:
a) how many epic games did you play in?
b) how many epic games did you GM?Also, you could reflect on what level is the game most balanced at (hint: that's not the later levels), why does PFS cap out at level 12 and take a look at "AP deaths" thread and observe how many more deaths are reported for early levels than late ones.
All this could help you reach the conclusion I have: high level play is something everyone gets easily excited about, but in the end there's very little of it happening.
My answer to both questions would be, "No, but I would like to."
And to me, that is the relevant answer.
I'm not trying to put Paizo on the spot, but beyond that, it's the designer's responsibility to make that happen. If they want to sell the product that is.
I see what you're getting at, and it's not a completely invalid point, but you're somewhat (gently) attacking people for having the desire for mythic rules. That is misplaced energy.
The way I take it, you're suggesting it shouldn't be done because it hasn't been done successfully in the past. No argument. I would just counter that is no rationale for not trying. Except if you're concerned that Paizo will divert energy and resources on a project that you can't imagine actually working. That I can understand, but respectfully, you need to let them make that call. Paizo's Design and Editorial Departments are pretty disciplined. If they don't think they can do it, they won't. But that won't be because you're going to talk anybody out of not wanting the rules in the first place.
No offense. Honest.
I have run a couple games up to 16th level. So I have some experience related to the topic. Yes, even the Pathfinder rules begin to get shakey. I'm running Serpents Skull right now, and I hope to have a clearer idea of what works and what doesn't. What I'm finding right now is that the game works better if the GM is firm, fair, and disciplined. But that's an entirely different topic...
I do *think* that Mythic Rules will require something of an entirely new system, and that CR 20+ characters would need to be converted to it. The existing game was designed to be backwards compatible, and Mythic Rules would need to step away from 3.5. However that's merely my "armchair designer" opinion. However, I wouldn't be adverse to converting CR 20 characters to a new system.
Just to recap my point though, it's not for me to curb my desire for a product. I should be able to wish for anything kinda cool game I want. It's upon Paizo to create that game, or sensibly decide that they can't, or that there isn't enough interest.
So I remain interested in Mythic Adventures.
And I encourage folks going to PaizoCon to speak up to that effect.
And I encourage folks going to PaizoCon to speak up to that effect.
Oh, how ye twist the knife, ye knave.
Gbone,
No intention of derailing the thread here, but:
Is the Immortals Handbook worth the investment, if I intend to play some "post-20th" that has only a hint of divinity in it?
The campaign that I would like to finish involves a world being pulled into the Abyss by a "Godhand"-type group of entities. The meat and drink is forcing the PCs to right this unimaginable wrong, fighting a constant uphill battle against the (rightfully) paranoid population of their world, steadily being subverted into an Abyssal wasteland of demon hordes and undead, and keeping them so busy with damage control that they will be hard-pressed (through many levels of adventure) to reach the parties that are responsible for the atrocity.
The enemies may have a spark of divinity, but there will be little in the way of "god-slaying", and the PCs will never get to be part of the pantheon (unless they fail utterly and become part of the demonic pantheon, a la 'Griffisu').
Thanks in advance.
Of course this wouldn't be an issue if Paizo already had rules available for me to finish my campaign. (See, I made it topical again. Hee.)
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I have a question for those who want an "Mythic Adventures Handbook"...lets say it gets released. It places a hard cap on level advancement at level 36. How long until this same discussion comes up asking for an "Uber-Mythic Adventures Handbook" covering levels 37+? If we're going to have a hard cap, and actually keep it, 20th levels seems to be pretty good, since that's about the level that nascent demon lords hang out out, and full demon lords are listed as being not that much higher.
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I have a question for those who want an "Mythic Adventures Handbook"...lets say it gets released. It places a hard cap on level advancement at level 36. How long until this same discussion comes up asking for an "Uber-Mythic Adventures Handbook" covering levels 37+? If we're going to have a hard cap, and actually keep it, 20th levels seems to be pretty good, since that's about the level that nascent demon lords hang out out, and full demon lords are listed as being not that much higher.
If we assume that the transition from normal adventures to mythic adventures occurs at level 20, then I would suggest that the hard cap on mythic-level play should be set at level 40. Divine level entities could then exist in between levels 40 to 60 - which is close to the power level implied in the 3e "Deities and Demigods" book. This would create three distinct tiers of power - heroic, mythic, and divine - each of which contains 20 levels. Even if you don't ever intend to let characters reach such power levels, having such a conceptual model helps when thinking about the kind of things that players might face in the crowning moment of awesome at the end of a 'heroic' (level 1-20) campaign.
Personally, I would emphasize that mythic level play should be qualitatively different from normal heroic adventuring - as characters push past levels 15-17 they start to move beyond the limits of normal human achievement and into the realm of myth. The transition to a mythic style of play shouldn't be based on a sudden leap in power that occurs at level 20, but should be a gradual process that occurs between levels 15 and 25. At this power level, there should be a law of diminishing returns for advancement - characters must push back the frontiers of what is possible for mortals, venturing where only a few of the mightiest heroes and villains of legend have passed before them. I would welcome the introduction of an exponential experience progression beyond level 20 to highlight this fact. Perhaps there is a need to undertake mythic quests to unlock certain advances - a system similar to the Prestige Award system outlined in the Faction Guide might work. This would make continued advancement contingent upon story-related factors rather than the mere accumulation of experience points.
In any case, I feel that any set of Mythic Adventures rules published by Paizo should be subject to a full public playtest, as it is one of those areas where game balance will be extremely difficult to maintain. Although it won't be possible to please everybody, I think that one of the problems with the old ELH was that it did not receive sufficient scrutiny from playtesters before publication.
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Is the Immortals Handbook worth the investment, if I intend to play some "post-20th" that has only a hint of divinity in it?
The Immortals Handbook is decent, provided that you accept the author's slant on divine-level advancement. For my money, the best treatment of divine-level entities is still The Primal Order - a generic book published by WoTC way back before they hit the big time. That book got them into a fair bit of legal trouble and it can be hard to find a copy nowadays, but it's worth hunting it down if you are interested in the subject matter.
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For my money, the best treatment of divine-level entities is still The Primal Order - a generic book published by WoTC way back before they hit the big time. That book got them into a fair bit of legal trouble and it can be hard to find a copy nowadays, but it's worth hunting it down if you are interested in the subject matter.
TRUTH.
I hunted down all of the books. They're awesome.
Is the Immortals Handbook worth the investment, if I intend to play some "post-20th" that has only a hint of divinity in it?The Immortals Handbook is decent, provided that you accept the author's slant on divine-level advancement. For my money, the best treatment of divine-level entities is still The Primal Order - a generic book published by WoTC way back before they hit the big time. That book got them into a fair bit of legal trouble and it can be hard to find a copy nowadays, but it's worth hunting it down if you are interested in the subject matter.
Well, the Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary Volume 1 is the specific book that I'm referring to, which really doesn't have much to do with advancement to divinity. It's more epic monsters with some additional rules content.
The creatures in that book make the stuff in ELH look like kindergarten. However, for me it was fully worth the price due for some of the rules - things like additional meterials and sizes beyond colossal, etc. It also has a generic golem template in case, for example, you want an adamantine colossus or a lead golem.
Most of the creatures are too powerful for my campaign - but not all of them as the players will be finding out. If I were to choose between Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary, Mongoose's Expert Player's Guide Volume III Epic Monsters and Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary, I'd get Advanced Bestiary first (I *love* the horsemen of the apocalypse template), then the Immortals Handbook, then Epic Monsters, which is mostly a reprint of the OGL ELH stuff, but with some new stuff.
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Heh...I'd forgotten about the Mongoose book. There's some decent stuff in there.
I thought that you were referring to the Immortals Handbook: Ascension, which was published by the same company who did the "Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary Volume 1" (Eternity Publishing).
The Green Ronin Advanced Bestiary is a great book, but most of the contents are designed for non-epic play.
I still think that the Primal Order books are better than any of the above though. It would be awesome if Paizo could produce a Pathfinder adaptation of these works at some point - I believe that the rights reverted to Peter Adkison when he parted company with WoTC. Unfortunately it's not very likely to happen though :(
Heh...I'd forgotten about the Mongoose book. There's some decent stuff in there.
Yeah, they did add a few things, and I really like some of the feats - for example Planar Harbinger, which I've been using on advanced Mothers of Oblivion to create some really cool effects.
I thought that you were referring to the Immortals Handbook: Ascension, which was published by the same company who did the "Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary Volume 1" (Eternity Publishing).
The Green Ronin Advanced Bestiary is a great book, but most of the contents are designed for non-epic play.
Absolutely designed for non-epic play - but since there's few epic monsters that I really want to use as-is (virtually none these days), I make heavy use of templates, often for flavor.
I still think that the Primal Order books are better than any of the above though. It would be awesome if Paizo could produce a Pathfinder adaptation of these works at some point - I believe that the rights reverted to Peter Adkison when he parted company with WoTC. Unfortunately it's not very likely to happen though :(
I'll have to see if I can find 'em. Sounds like they're for a different kind of campaign than mine, however - the PCs in my campaign aren't intended to ascend to divinity; it's more of a "really powerful, but mortal" campaign than a "join the gods" kind of campaign, which is what it sounds like Primal Order is aimed at.
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It seems the ELH handbook is always a year away; meanwhile, we get "Goblins of Golarion". Never mind that the book is going to rock and that I love the little critters, and that it is only one of the Companion books, I think players would still get more mileage out of a ELH.
I seriously think more groups are going to be using the material in GOG than any pending ELH. Most GMs will be wanting to spice up encounters with such a common and iconic foe.
I also think more players will use GOG; I've played far more goblins, as PCs or henchmen, than PCs of any race over level 20.
The 'let's all have a blast playing critters' campaign is far more common than the 'let's all build level 21 PCs!' campaign, and far, far easier to set up, as an ongoing game, or one-shot.
Or maybe I just know a lot of sociopaths, but it's far easier to round up players for a game of 'burn down the town' than a typical allegedly-serious game.
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as characters push past levels 15-17 they start to move beyond the limits of normal human achievement and into the realm of myth.
Sorry, but I'd push that back to about levels 5-8. At 5th level a human fighter can face off against a dozen orcs.
I do agree with you about the law of diminishing returns for advancement. Too may suggestions I've seen for post-20th level play seem to think that at 21st levels and beyond your power level should absolutely skyrocket. Were I in charge, it would instead become 20th level as the hard cap, and you would gain an additional feat for every additional ____ XP earned beyond 20th level. (Basically E20). The benefits of this system are that the game is already pretty well set up for character advancement to 20th level.
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Immortals Handbook: Ascension is useful if you meet someone who absolutely insists that gods have stats, since even the lower-powered immortals generated by that book are pretty well beyond anything that WotC's ELH could deal with. Just show the player what a "Time Lord" can do, and he suddenly has less desire to go kicking in the doors of a god's house.
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as characters push past levels 15-17 they start to move beyond the limits of normal human achievement and into the realm of myth.Sorry, but I'd push that back to about levels 5-8. At 5th level a human fighter can face off against a dozen orcs.
I do agree with you about the law of diminishing returns for advancement. Too may suggestions I've seen for post-20th level play seem to think that at 21st levels and beyond your power level should absolutely skyrocket. Were I in charge, it would instead become 20th level as the hard cap, and you would gain an additional feat for every additional ____ XP earned beyond 20th level. (Basically E20). The benefits of this system are that the game is already pretty well set up for character advancement to 20th level.
PCs are still considered normal untill level 6...level 6 and up is superhuman..things that no normal person on earth today could accomplish. Levels 14 and up, the PCs are essentialy demigods without divine rank...
as characters push past levels 15-17 they start to move beyond the limits of normal human achievement and into the realm of myth.Sorry, but I'd push that back to about levels 5-8. At 5th level a human fighter can face off against a dozen orcs.
I do agree with you about the law of diminishing returns for advancement. Too may suggestions I've seen for post-20th level play seem to think that at 21st levels and beyond your power level should absolutely skyrocket. Were I in charge, it would instead become 20th level as the hard cap, and you would gain an additional feat for every additional ____ XP earned beyond 20th level. (Basically E20). The benefits of this system are that the game is already pretty well set up for character advancement to 20th level.
Isn't that pretty much how the ELH is structured? After all, there're really not much in the way of new powers - every character merely gets there's+1/2 on all saves and BAB per level after 10 and a feat every 3 (or ever 2 if you're using Pathfinder rules).
I guess some class features such as sneak attack, etc., still advance, and there are epic prestige classes - but the base classes gain no new powers after 20. Did you mean *nothing* advances after level 20?
In reality, I've found advancement to be pretty tame once you're at the high levels - it's nothing like the mad dash for additional powers that happens between levels 11-20.
Immortals Handbook: Ascension is useful if you meet someone who absolutely insists that gods have stats, since even the lower-powered immortals generated by that book are pretty well beyond anything that WotC's ELH could deal with. Just show the player what a "Time Lord" can do, and he suddenly has less desire to go kicking in the doors of a god's house.
Hm. Suddenly this is a lot more interesting for me. Though frankly they haven't yet expressed interest in that. And I think it's off their radar now, they've got other fish to fry.
PCs are still considered normal until level 6...level 6 and up is superhuman..things that no normal person on earth today could accomplish. Levels 14 and up, the PCs are essentialy demigods without divine rank...
Depends on how you make your demigods :)
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Immortals Handbook: Ascension is useful if you meet someone who absolutely insists that gods have stats, since even the lower-powered immortals generated by that book are pretty well beyond anything that WotC's ELH could deal with. Just show the player what a "Time Lord" can do, and he suddenly has less desire to go kicking in the doors of a god's house.Hm. Suddenly this is a lot more interesting for me. Though frankly they haven't yet expressed interest in that. And I think it's off their radar now, they've got other fish to fry.
I don't have it in front of my, so I'm working from memory, but overgods are on the low-middle side of their scale. Yeah, FR's Ao is low-powered in this book.
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It should also be noted that by "epic" I don't mean "highly dramatic." I mean "of a scope that sub-epic levels can't do justice." That's the sort of feeling you get from such things as...
Fighting gods
Becoming a god (and having a mortal religion to oversee...a divine version of Kingmaker, perhaps?)
Battling entire armies by yourself
Having spells/powers that cause huge collateral damage (e.g. a city or more)Fighting a group of orcs at lower levels can be made to feel dramatic. But taking on an army of orcs one million strong, led into battle by their god...and actually being able to win? That's EPIC!
Did anyone ever convert 2E Birthright to 3.0/3.5?
I never played, as it was in my 'checking out other games' years, but from what I saw, it covered that ground, with a Highlander-style, "There Can Be Only One!" method of absorbing the bloodlines of defeated enemy rulers.
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I was rewatching Gurren Lagann again and was struck by the parallel between Pathfinder (D&D) and how the show continues to up the stakes at absurd rates with even bigger and more giant robots. Even to the point where they go fight in an imaginary universe, in a galaxy sized robot, against the equally sized robot that is the manifestation of the power of an entire race.
In total I think that's what those of us looking for Epic game play are expecting. The series can be broken in two halves "Against the Spiral King" and "Against the Anti-Spirals". AtSK is more like a Paizo AP, with protecting the world or freeing, or the like of equal grandeur. AtAS is post Paizo AP where you now go against a greater cosmic force and eventually challenge it in it's house. This could be a Demi-god, immortal wizard, a arch elemental or demon, but it's something clearly bigger then mortal. I'd call it something very Meta.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurren_Lagann
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Immortals Handbook: Ascension is useful if you meet someone who absolutely insists that gods have stats, since even the lower-powered immortals generated by that book are pretty well beyond anything that WotC's ELH could deal with. Just show the player what a "Time Lord" can do, and he suddenly has less desire to go kicking in the doors of a god's house.
With or without a malfunctioning TARDIS?
Did anyone ever convert 2E Birthright to 3.0/3.5?
Okay normally I don't post again like this if I can help but... ... because Birthright was/is my favorite set of rules in a setting over all.
Yes, yes they did. And it was even acknowledged as a FanSite (rare for Wizards to do). They are still up
You can find the 3.5 conversion here.