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So now we're claiming a Dex buffed Alchemist is going to TPK a party by easily beating them on initiative and hitting them all with confusion bombs expending at a minimum four bombs to maybe TPK a party? That's how we're going to decide this ability?
What if the Cleric makes a single roll and casts Calm Emotion? The effect ends, the alchemist is out four bombs, his attack is rendered useless.
Balancing an ability based on an uncommon scenario doesn't change my mind. I don't think a single target no save confusion effect is very powerful. The changes of four characters all being confused missing their actions every round is fairly slim. When I play a cleric, I usually have a calm emotions memorized for such occasions.
You are missing the point: with a group as soon as a chain of attack start you don't have the possibility to roll to see what you do. You attack the last guy that attacked you.
So unless you:1) haven't been attacked
and
2) are the guy that get that 25% chance of acting normally
you have no chance to cast your calm emotion.
Then
3) Calm emotion is a second level spell and has a saving throw. If the Saving throw is successful it do nothing;
4) even if successful, it simply suppress the spell
While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime) it not dispel it
and
5)Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
1 successful saving throw with the still confused guy attacking the cleric as he has attacked him casting a offensive spell and your spell is canceled.
6) Even if you have calmed the whole party they can only act defensively so long as they are under the effect of calm emotion.
Guess what? I attack from the alchemist and Calm emotion is canceled.
So what is the more likely scenario: calming the whole party and some of the other party members having the right spell for remove the confusion effect permanently.
It is not a spell, so it can't be dispelled, so what is left to cure it? Heal, Nine lives, Greater Restoration, Cleanse. Hmm, all cleric spells, all fairly high level. And the cleric is casting calm emotion.
So your scenario seem even more unlikely. What is doing the alchemist while you keep your friends and yourself calmed? Nothing?
So now we're claiming a Dex buffed Alchemist is going to TPK a party by easily beating them on initiative and hitting them all with confusion bombs expending at a minimum four bombs to maybe TPK a party? That's how we're going to decide this ability?
What if the Cleric makes a single roll and casts Calm Emotion? The effect ends, the alchemist is out four bombs, his attack is rendered useless.
Balancing an ability based on an uncommon scenario doesn't change my mind. I don't think a single target no save confusion effect is very powerful. The changes of four characters all being confused missing their actions every round is fairly slim. When I play a cleric, I usually have a calm emotions memorized for such occasions.
You are missing the point: with a group as soon as a chain of attack start you don't have the possibility to roll to see what you do. You attack the last guy that attacked you.
So unless you:
1) haven't been attacked
and
2) are the guy that get that 25% chance of acting normally
you have no chance to cast your calm emotion.Then
3) Calm emotion is a second level spell and has a saving throw. If the Saving throw is successful it do nothing;4) even if successful, it simply suppress the spell
While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime) it not dispel itand
5)Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.1 successful saving throw with the still confused guy attacking the cleric as he has attacked him casting a offensive spell and your spell is canceled.
6) Even if you have calmed the whole party they can only act defensively so long as they are under the effect of calm emotion.
Guess what? I attack from the...
I'm not missing any point.
It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets
The save is only against the calming affect that causes everyone to take no violent actions.
It automatically (as in no save) suppresses fear and automatically removes the confused condition. One casting of calm emotions confusion is dispelled. Much like slow versus haste. There is no save. It is automatically successful.
At least that is how I read it and use it. It's a counter to confusion and other such effects with the side effect of suppressing positive spells as well.
If this was not the intent, then the spell should have been written with a more clear understanding of what it does. I've always used it at the counter to confusion in the same way remove fear removes fear and remove paralysis frees a creature from holds. Remove is a different word than suppresse and confusion is completely removed by calm emotions.
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"At least that is how I read it and use it."
but to read and use it that way you are dismissing part of the text of the spell and the rules about Saving throws.
It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
A creature that takes a direct hit from a confusion bomb takes damage from the bomb and is under the effect of a confusion spell for 1 round per caster level of the alchemist.
1) The bomb don't give the confused condition, if has the effect of the confusion spell. "When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again".
2) The saving throw line is: Saving Throw Will negates
Full stop.
Nothing in the spell description say that some of the effects work even if you make your saving throw.
Edit:
the definition of Condition isn't exceedingly clear in the rules, but as it is a spell effect I think it fall under the suppressed spell rule for Calm emotion, not under the removed condition rule.
"At least that is how I read it and use it."
but to read and use it that way you are dismissing part of the text of the spell and the rules about Saving throws.
It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
A creature that takes a direct hit from a confusion bomb takes damage from the bomb and is under the effect of a confusion spell for 1 round per caster level of the alchemist.1) The bomb don't give the confused condition, if has the effect of the confusion spell. "When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again".
2) The saving throw line is: Saving Throw Will negates
Full stop.
Nothing in the spell description say that some of the effects work even if you make your saving throw.Edit:
the definition of Condition isn't exceedingly clear in the rules, but as it is a spell effect I think it fall under the suppressed spell rule for Calm emotion, not under the removed condition rule.
Will negates applies to the other aspects of the spell. "removed" is strong and precise language. It removes it.
If what youp're implying is the case, they should make it more clear. The confused condition comes from spells and effects like poison, gaze attacks, and similar monster special abilities.
The confusion spell says it causes "confusion" and states "A confused" character. It uses the same table as the confused condition. What else causes the confused condition but other sources like spells and other supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary abilities?
Does the confusion spell cause something other than confusion? Is that how I'm supposed to read it according to your interpretation?
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Remove can be as strong a world as you wish, but it a spell has a saving throw it has a saving throw.
If we remove the ST because Calm emotion as a strong word, we should remove it from Circle of death because kill is a strong word and it say "Circle of death snuffs out the life force of living creatures, killing them instantly." and that is simply the first spell that came to my mind.
Saving Throw
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Partial: The spell has an effect on its subject. A successful saving throw means that some lesser effect occurs.
Half: The spell deals damage, and a successful saving throw halves the damage taken (round down).
None: No saving throw is allowed.
Clam emotion has ST Negate. For your argument to work it should have ST Partial, with the text of the spell explaining what is negated by a successful save.
- * -
Condition and spell.
Calm emotion remove the confused condition, not the spell, so the spell can still be in effect at the end of calm emotion.
There are a few thing that give the condition without being a spell, like the gaze of some monster.
Remove can be as strong a world as you wish, but it a spell has a saving throw it has a saving throw.
If we remove the ST because Calm emotion as a strong word, we should remove it from Circle of death because kill is a strong word and it say "Circle of death snuffs out the life force of living creatures, killing them instantly." and that is simply the first spell that came to my mind.Saving Throw
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Partial: The spell has an effect on its subject. A successful saving throw means that some lesser effect occurs.
Half: The spell deals damage, and a successful saving throw halves the damage taken (round down).
None: No saving throw is allowed.
Clam emotion has ST Negate. For your argument to work it should have ST Partial, with the text of the spell explaining what is negated by a successful save.
- * -
Condition and spell.
Calm emotion remove the confused condition, not the spell, so the spell can still be in effect at the end of calm emotion.
There are a few thing that give the condition without being a spell, like the gaze of some monster.
Remove is remove. It isn't as "strong a word as I want it to be." Why use suppress and then use remove when they have very different meanings?
Almost every gaze attack that causes the confused condition goes off the spell. The confusion spell is the base, it always has been.
Your circle of death comparison is a perfect example showing how Save Negates isn't as important as what is written in the spell text. If you fail the save, you don't die instantly unless you are lower than 9 hit dice. It is well explained and very clear. The text of the spell overrides the Saving Throw: Fortitude Negates. So why wouldn't the text of calm emotions override the Saving Throw: Will Negates. With circle of death if I'm 9HD or over I don't even need to make a save for circle of death. If I'm confused or feared, I don't even need to make a save for Calm Emotions, it is "automatically suppressed" or "the confused condition removed."
No one wants to be confused or feared. So why would they choose to save against a spell that benefits them?
The only part I'll agree with is that calm emotions needs a rewrite and has for a long time. It's another one of those spells written in an unclear manner with multiple effects, some beneficial and some not.
As far as I'm concerned calm emotions removes confusion. If the player has to choose to fail the save, so be it. Once it is used, it is removed, not suppressed. Suppress and remove are very different words. Removed means gone. Not temporarily gone, but gone as in done. If the spell doesn't work that way, then they should have said suppressed for the entire spell.
What if the Cleric makes a single roll and casts Calm Emotion? The effect ends, the alchemist is out four bombs, his attack is rendered useless.
What if the Rogue goes before the Cleric (likely) and rolls to attack him? (25% chance same chance that the Cleric has to make the roll to act normally.
Balancing an ability based on an uncommon scenario doesn't change my mind.
NPC Alchemists will likely be far more common than PC Alchemists (by virtue of there being far more NPCs than PCs) so this is exactly the yardstick by which we should measure.
The changes of four characters all being confused missing their actions every round is fairly slim.
Not all four of them have to miss their actions. Statistically one is going to roll to act normally, two are going to lose their actions, and one is going to hit his ally.
That means, unless the one that got to go normally (only 25% chance of being the cleric) has a way to heal confusion, 1st round, 2 PCs are down for the encounter.That's a 75% chance of a TPK for an EL -2 encounter.
When I play a cleric, I usually have a calm emotions memorized for such occasions.
What if the party has a non cleric healer? Do you usually take Calm Emotions as one of your few spells known as an Oracle or Bard?
Also, you can't choose to fail a save while confused, you can't tell friend from foe. And, since targeted spells are attacks (at least as Invisibility defines them), any target that makes their save will immediately attack the Cleric.
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Cover don't negate splash damage unless you have total cover.
If you hit the already confused guys with splash damage you become their target and they will stop rolling to see how they act.
and:
Alchemist, Confusion Bomb: Should this discovery require a saving throw?
Yes. The target of the bomb may attempt at a save against the confusion effect (Will negates, using the bomb's DC).
This will be corrected in the next printing of Ultimate Magic.
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Hurray, we now have another worthless bomb discovery.
(-_-)
I would like to point out, it specifically says "..under the effects of a confusion SPELL"..
The confusion spell header contains:
CONFUSION
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
So, it would have to beat their spell resistance first, and then they get a will save to avoid the confusion effect.
So you have to hit (not difficult), overcome SR (if they even have it) and then make they get a will save.
Hurray, we now have another worthless bomb discovery.
(-_-)
Once I read the fine print in Confusion ("Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes") the spell pretty much became dead to me regardless. The martial enemies (i.e. the only ones who will fail the will save) are forced to full attack one of my allies on their turn! I'm glad I put this amazing debuff on them that will MAKE THEM DO WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO ANYWAY.
That said, it was still kinda cool if you could do it without a save, depending on the circumstances (and on whether or not your interpretation of attack allowed the use of spells from confused casters). Oh well... Now onto the heap next to Crane Wing you go, Confusion Bomb!
@Crazy Elf
Confusion Bomb is a supernatural ability and supernatural abilities are not subject to SR.
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Hurray, we now have another worthless bomb discovery.
(-_-)
Once I read the fine print in Confusion ("Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes") the spell pretty much became dead to me regardless. The martial enemies (i.e. the only ones who will fail the will save) are forced to full attack one of my allies on their turn! I'm glad I put this amazing debuff on them that will MAKE THEM DO WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO ANYWAY.
That said, it was still kinda cool if you could do it without a save, depending on the circumstances (and on whether or not your interpretation of attack allowed the use of spells from confused casters). Oh well... Now onto the heap next to Crane Wing you go, Confusion Bomb!
@Crazy Elf
Confusion Bomb is a supernatural ability and supernatural abilities are not subject to SR.
It all depend on how you use it. You usually throw the bomb or cast the spell on a group of enemies and let them kill each other.
Even if your allies like to attack the confused characters normally only one of the confused characters is the target of your attacks, so only one will automatically attack one of your allies. The other will attack the closet target, regardless of him being your ally or their ally.Only if your allies are spreading their attacks around so that every confused character has been attacked by some of them the debuff effect is lessened, and even in that instance the target is forced to attack. No buffing himself, no healing, no retreat.
Removing options from the enemies is still useful.
Yeah, I overstated Confusions uselessness. It can be interesting, especially if your party is willing to stand around and let it happen in peace. The act of one confused enemy hitting another confused enemy and chain looping themselves into fighting to the death is highly amusing after all. Would have been much more interesting if it could be inflicted without a save though.
Confusion, due to how it works, is exponentially better when it hits multiple foes nearby, as they will likely start killing each other. On one enemy, it's much less effective.
Confusion bomb used to trade needing to hit touch AC and being single target for not having a save. While as the spell hits a radius. Now, you need to hit *and* have them fail a save, and you still have to toss out a bunch of them before you match the effect of the actual spell.
Yeah, I'll pass.
Don't forget to use a lesser rod of Bouncing Spell in case the initial Murderous Command target saves. ;)