The problem is that we have to deal with it.
The APs no longer only assume the core rulebooks.
Yes, these rules are available online. That isn't the point. the point is I don't want to have to look up this stuff every time some player brings it to my table. Particularly if its a playtest that hasn't been balanced and overwhelms everyone else in the party.At home, I can just say, "No, that isn't allowed." But in PFS, I have to hold the game to look up whatever the new rule is because some min-max player is trying to do something I think is over the top.
I like running PFS games. It has brought many new and returning players to Pathfinder. We grew so big in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex that we split into two locations, one in Dallas, one in Arlington.
Whatever. The application in PFS is my only complaint. I understand that some people want to play a fiendish half-dragon goblin gestalt warlock/rogue/weaponmaster with a 12-20 crit range, and that's fine. I just don't want that to become assumption in Paizo's other products.
Then talk to the people who run PFS. Organized play is a completely different can of worms then the base game. There is a reason it has its own additions to the rules, restrictions and a set of adventures designed specifically for it. It isnt the normal game, and the normal game's ruleset should not be based on organized play. Go to the PFS boards, send emails and letters indicating you want some means with which to restrict the options in PFS games. Deal with the problem where it is actually a problem. You dont cut off someones hand because your pinky is bleeding.
thats the issues, a number of us are not happy with the current pace. Just don't buy it does not work if a large number of people do that then you lose the line.
I have voted with my wallet, but if you do not hear people telling you they will stop buying if you do not slow down, and you don't slow down and they then stop.
Well it hurts everyone and you guys screaming just don't buy it are left wondering "why did they stop making that?"
Yep, if they want to publish something that will put them out of business in six months, I wan them to go ahead and do it. It means they've stopped caring about the system. I don't see any reason to want them to stay in business if they don't care.
Take the fork out of your own eye before you try to stick it in mine...
Who let the kids in here?
Thought someone was carding in this thread? If thats not the case.
Opens the rum
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I basically hit my limit with the APG. That's not to say that I have no interest whatsoever in Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic, but it's certainly diminishing returns for me at this point. I don't really care about fifty new spells or fifty new feats (maybe 10% of which I'll find interesting).
Yeah the APG was my last "option" purchase. I had my fill of the tidal wave of "cool" PC options years ago.
Yeah the APG was my last "option" purchase. I had my fill of the tidal wave of "cool" PC options years ago.
WHY DO YOU HATE PAIZO?!?
Ask the guy that let you in?
Forgive me, but when earnest responses are met with careless mockery, I give up. *shrug*
We (My fiance & I) don't allow most things from the APG in our home games and it is unbelievably frustrating to have to check everything that a player brings to a PFS game because it is "legal."
We may be canceling our RPG subscription after Ultimate Magic. We already gave away the the APG book as a gift, and will likely do the same to Ultimate Magic.
Please slow down the Player-Option RPGs!
We are DIE-HARD Paizo fans, and my fiance is a Paizo charter superscriber, for the time being. But even we can't keep up with all of the extra rules and options being put out there for the players. And that's a lot considering we are both rules lawyers.
I like the books, but they come out way too fast. These books are making me reconsider running PFS regularly (which I'm running at Texicon and Paizocon).
[Edit - changed RPGs to player-option RPGS, since I really really want epic rules]
I agree that PFS has a lot of rules, but most of us are not a part of PFS so we don't have all of those options to deal with. In your case I think it would be easier to not do PFS to cut back on options if possible.
thats the issues, a number of us are not happy with the current pace. Just don't buy it does not work if a large number of people do that then you lose the line.
I have voted with my wallet, but if you do not hear people telling you they will stop buying if you do not slow down, and you don't slow down and they then stop.
Well it hurts everyone and you guys screaming just don't buy it are left wondering "why did they stop making that?"
How is two books too much? If you are counting the various feats that are in the books such as Race of Golarion(not a real book) then ask to make those books all flavor so it is one less book to look for when checking for feats.
Having 50 feats spread out over 10 books might be an issue. Having them all in one place is not.@everyone who complains about PFS and the number of books: Would you feel better if all the feat were listed in one place so you would not have to wade through several books. I don't do PFS, but I don't allow the random feats that are in the "flavor" books because I don't want to look through every book that is published. It is not the amount of the options that is an issue for me, but the fact that they are all over the place.
PS:I really don't know how many books "all over the place" covers, but it seems like a lot.
The APs no longer only assume the core rulebooks.
Demonstrably false. Paizo has continually stated that APs will only have core content OR will print the entirety of the rules needed in the AP. So far, unless I'm mistaken, there has been one single NPC who was a witch and the whole of the rules printed in that module was like a couple paragraphs.
You're grasping at straws.
I'm sorry my helpful suggestion was viewed as careless mockery. I'm still trying to find the original post you responded to in order to better understand your complaint with mdt.
I think it started here...
Most of the people complaining about too many rulebooks aren't subscribed to the Pathfinder RPG line. But if you are a "Core and done" sort of player, you have already made yourself not a customer (at least of that line). There are hundreds (if not thousands, I doubt we'll see real numbers) of us who subscribed to Pathfinder RPG line. We are not only asking for 3 books per year, we've signed up in advance for them.
So the question is not, "Should Paizo stop making rulebooks?" The question is, "What should Paizo's next year or two of books should be?"
LOL,
Good point. :)!Rule Book Guy : "I refuse to buy anything from you Paizo, I've got enough! Now stop making rule books!"
Paizo : "Uh, ok, so, as a non customer, you want us to stop producing books, or you'll what?"
!Rule Book Guy : "I will cease spending my money with you."
Paizo : "I see, so, not only will you not buy anything we put out, but if we don't stop producing books, you'll also stop buying anything we put out?"
!Rule Book Guy : "Exactly!"
Paizo : "So, what 3 crunch books should we put out next year?"
!Rule Book Guy : "DOH!"
To which he replied, and then I replied...
It's not a ridiculous strawman, it's a legitimate point that's being made by using absurdity. It's directed at those that have posted "I'm not buying UM or UC or any other player option books past APG". If that is your choice, then you are already a non-customer. Paizo has to listen to the people actually spending money.Can we not use ridiculous strawmen? So far this thread has done well avoiding a fight, but here you're actually inviting one.
kthxbai.
He seemed to take exception to this and then it spiraled from there. I thought that it was pretty obvious that my original post was patently absurd, but the point it was making was fairly obvious. Apparently he disagreed.
thats the issues, a number of us are not happy with the current pace. Just don't buy it does not work if a large number of people do that then you lose the line.
I have voted with my wallet, but if you do not hear people telling you they will stop buying if you do not slow down, and you don't slow down and they then stop.
Well it hurts everyone and you guys screaming just don't buy it are left wondering "why did they stop making that?"
Many of us also had no problem with the old pace set by wizards of the coast. I have the full complete set and a bunch of their other products (and still use a fair amount of it). I think that paizo is striking a rather reasonable compromise of 3 books since the rpg started.
As for worrying about it dieing off, it wont, because option books sell better then any other book type short of the core rules. The people who are 'done with options books' arent going to bring option books sales bellow the sales of other rpg books unless there is a major drop off in the quality of those books.
I must say I couldn't disagree more. We get two splat books a year. Two. Personally, I would like to see more, but I've consoled myself to the fact that everyone else has 3.x exhaustion and I won't get them. But less? No, that's too much (in that it's too little). Paizo produces almost entirely fluff and background. We get lots of that, and I love it. But I want my crunch too.
I have been looking forward to Ultimate Magic for months, and I'm psyched for Ultimate Combat. I hope they keep it up.
Just want to make sure the other side's opinion is heard.
I think you're both trying to convince each other of your own opinions, and should just shut up about it.
You'll note I've ignored his last few posts, yes?
I'm sorry my helpful suggestion was viewed as careless mockery. I'm still trying to find the original post you responded to in order to better understand your complaint with mdt.
If you're honestly curious, it was the bit about those of us who want the flow of rules supplements to slow not being customers, and therefore not worthy of paying attention to. He later revised it to "rule-supplement customers," but that isn't how it started out.
As it happens, I think rules bloat is a constant temptation. Rules supplements sell well, and are very profitable in the short term. I'm not convinced that flooding the market with rules is healthy for the long term. Bloat exists. Are we there yet? I'm not sure, that is a matter of opinion, but it's a reasonable question. Mocking people for asking it is annoying and unproductive, especially in a thread created for the express purpose of asking if people think we're there yet!
Bad behavior is bad behavior. I'm not holding my breath for so much as a "my bad," but there it is.
If you're honestly curious, it was the bit about those of us who want the flow of rules supplements to slow [/b]
It doesn't get any slower, really. At the end of this year we'll be looking at a whopping 3 books in 2 1/2 years. Calm down.
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Ok I have not read the thread yet, just replying to the OP.
To a point I agree but only to a point. Ideally for me it would break down like. 3 HB a year as follows.
1 Bestiary - till they run out of good idea's
1 Region - Like Inner Sea, but these can be things that cover other regions, planets or even planes type books.
1 Rule Book - This can be character options, new rules like haunts, or expanding on established rules, magic item and creation book, etc.
I would be personally happy with that. Especially if the last book varied from year to year on what it covered.
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The APs no longer only assume the core rulebooks.Demonstrably false. Paizo has continually stated that APs will only have core content OR will print the entirety of the rules needed in the AP. So far, unless I'm mistaken, there has been one single NPC who was a witch and the whole of the rules printed in that module was like a couple paragraphs.
You're grasping at straws.
It's happened in several PFS scenarios, which have repeatedly stated that the only assumptions are the Core rulebook, Bestiary, and Seeker of Secrets.
This response by James Jacobs may add to the thread.
I know they are not going to change. I'm just annoyed that waiting to get the books when we want means we don't get the discount or the free pdf from the subscription.
Well, I'm indifferent to the PFS stuff. It may very well be the case that having a gaggle of PFS-allowed stuff makes it hard for PFS judges, but I still can't imagine it's anywhere near as bad as Living Forgotten Realms was.
On the other hand, ignoring PFS - I just don't see an overwhelming pile of rules material being pushed out of Paizo's door. Lots of adventures (especially considering the Adventure Paths). Lots of campaign material.
But tons of rules? We've got, what, the Core Rulebook, the APG, and Ultimate Magic. And Ultimate Combat (which has been stated to be the last of those kind of books for a while). I don't see four books as some kind of overwhelming tidal wave of books.
(Especially considering the number of 3.5e books on my shelf. How many Complete books were there, not to mention Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, Players Handbook II, etc. etc.)
But I'm more curious what people DO want to see, rather than what they don't want to see.
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Ok I have not read the thread yet, just replying to the OP.
To a point I agree but only to a point. Ideally for me it would break down like. 3 HB a year as follows.
1 Bestiary - till they run out of good idea's
1 Region - Like Inner Sea, but these can be things that cover other regions, planets or even planes type books.
1 Rule Book - This can be character options, new rules like haunts, or expanding on established rules, magic item and creation book, etc.I would be personally happy with that. Especially if the last book varied from year to year on what it covered.
+1!
Well, as I said in my initial post, I pretty much reached my bloat point back when I canceled my subscriptions.
I had zero problem with your initial post; sorry if I gave that impression.
I'm edging closer to the point of cancellation. If/when referencing one of the Ultimate_____ books is required by an AP, then I'll likely regretfully drop my sub. Until then, I remain a customer, and will stubbornly continue to give my input when it is asked for. Presumptuous, I know. :P
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I'll be personally fine with Ultimate Combat and no big generic splats more. Focused world-specific stuff like Magic of Inner Sea is fine, from time to time.
Quoting this cause it helps show what I like in character options. I would like to see more Golarion specific character options like the new book mentioned in the quote. I like new character options I would just like them to be more setting tied.
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guild management, merchant princes, mercenary companies
I would love to see more like this too. The only bad thing is that it may not be useful for players. Maybe if half the book was devoted to guilds/merc companies etc that are generic enough for a player to say to their DM can I be a member of so and so. here is a write up.
Also interested in environment book. Again it might be tough for players, so maybe devoting half the book with equipment, tactics, skill uses on how to survive the environment. Maybe one book covering desert/arctic/aquatic or so on to maximize effect.
I would also like to see some book on creating other cultural themed lands, for those of us that use homebrew. Maybe a book on Asian themes, listing common govt type, tropes, characters, items, etc. That would probably be more GM though. (And I don't mean a book about an established Asian land, I mean a book that shows you how to put your own together.
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I had zero problem with your initial post; sorry if I gave that impression.I'm edging closer to the point of cancellation. If/when referencing one of the Ultimate_____ books is required by an AP, then I'll probably drop the sub.
No, finally skimming through your arguments let me figure things out. I just thought you and mdt were being a couple of rams. :)
I honestly think I would cancel my RPG sub before the APG if I could go back. It's a nice shiny book that I don't think I will get any use out of. But dang my collector habit and need of symmetry, now that I have UM, I have to get UC. Arg blarg, curse myself, yadda yadda. XD
I will probably have had my fill by Ultimate Combat.
What I'd like to see are books that expand on existing content, like more usages for skills, how to handle mass combat (yes, yes, I know there's some adventure path that covers this), new haunts, new monsters, natural hazard encounters, exotic technology, monster tactics and so forth.
+1
I`d LOVE to see more info on skills... No new character building options,just more detailed DC tables, more inventive ways of using them,
maybe `special usages` if you have certain other Pre-Reqs, etc, etc.
That can really enrich the game without adding a whole new level of rules that only SOME characters who build around that can take advantage of. Skills really seem to be the most over-looked/ignored mechanical system of the PRPG system IMHO.
I'll be personally fine with Ultimate Combat and no big generic splats more. Focused world-specific stuff like Magic of Inner Sea is fine, from time to time.Quoting this cause it helps show what I like in character options. I would like to see more Golarion specific character options like the new book mentioned in the quote. I like new character options I would just like them to be more setting tied.
+1
I really hope that `Non Magical Warriors, Scoundrels, and Self-Promoters of the Inner Sea` (...Casmaron, Garund, etc) sees the light of day as well. There`s already waaaay more spells and magical feats/class abilities than weapons and combat feats/class abilities combined, so I really don`t understand why Paizo keeps favoring putting out the Magic stuff first. I am on the side of `we probably have to much rules bloat already`, but Ult. Combat seems almost necessary just to keep up with Magic, not to mention flesh out stuff in APG that wasn`t given justice (e.g. Cavaliers).
For me it's like volume 3 of AP #12 "Wrath of the Paizonian Beast Witch of the Underdark Crypt". Then turning to page 58 and finding her henchman is a Magus Ninja Gunslinger Rodeo Clown with heatseeking lightning abilities from the Tome of Ultimate Suppositories...... Of which none of this is from the core or apg.
Now I feel like I have to buy the PDF at least.
1apg-like book a year is ok save the others for other things like planar manuals, monster books, rules expansions like seaborne/undersea adventuring, etc
Right now the books are making money. When the market is rules saturated sales will drop.
For those of you insisting the rules books stop. It may work for your group, but Paizo is just doing stuff for your group. They have to look at everyone as a whole. Tell your players no more books after book X will be allowed. That will stop the pressure. If they buy the book anyway that is on them.
If Paizo is still pulling the money in then as a whole they are doing the best thing.
As for the AP issue. I am sure someone out there does not have a convenient internet connection. That is most likely less than 5% of the customers though. That does not mean those 5% don't matter. It means that as a business catering to the majority is the way to stay in business.
convenient=your own, a friend, nearby library, etc
PS:I probably won't buy the magic book. I don't know if I will buy ultimate combat, but I won't suggest others be deprived of more rules if they want them.
For me it's like volume 3 of AP #12 "Wrath of the Paizonian Beast Witch of the Underdark Crypt". Then turning to page 58 and finding her henchman is a Magus Ninja Gunslinger Rodeo Clown with heatseeking lightning abilities from the Tome of Ultimate Suppositories...... Of which none if this is from the core or apg.
Now I feel like I have to buy the PDF at least.1apg-like book a year is ok save the others for other things like planar manuals, monster books, rules expansions like seaborne/undersea adventuring, etc
Why do you need the pdf? click me
No, finally skimming through your arguments let me figure things out. I just thought you and mdt were being a couple of rams. :)
I had zero problem with your initial post; sorry if I gave that impression.I'm edging closer to the point of cancellation. If/when referencing one of the Ultimate_____ books is required by an AP, then I'll probably drop the sub.
For my part, I was being as ass. They say stick with what you know. ;-)
Quit the `Haters want Rules Books to stop` bit.
The whole thread is about what other focus Rules books can have BESDIES new classes, feats, archetypes, class options.
There`s plenty of stuff besides that, that still is rules, and still may sell well. Really.
The `controversy` is pretty silly, given that James Jacobs already stated that after Ult. Combat,
they probably won`t be doing `Class Option` Rules Books for the immediate future.
Why do you need the pdf? click meFor me it's like volume 3 of AP #12 "Wrath of the Paizonian Beast Witch of the Underdark Crypt". Then turning to page 58 and finding her henchman is a Magus Ninja Gunslinger Rodeo Clown with heatseeking lightning abilities from the Tome of Ultimate Suppositories...... Of which none if this is from the core or apg.
Now I feel like I have to buy the PDF at least.1apg-like book a year is ok save the others for other things like planar manuals, monster books, rules expansions like seaborne/undersea adventuring, etc
Right. The Paizo PRD isn't the only place to look; the volunteer team maintaining d20pfsrd.com gets things up within days. I'd be surprised if parts of Ultimate Magic weren't up there already.
Not only that, but if memory serves, there's an option to export all or some of the d20pfsrd.com site as a PDF.
I have to add to my last post....
If Paizo does put NPCs like Gunslingers into an AP, I would like to see a Sidebar with an equivalent stat block for a similar Ranger, etc
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I skimmed the OP, then jumped here to say that I agree with our esteemed evil head of state. I love UM, I anticipate UA being equally awesome, and I could see maybe, just maybe, finding some love and shelf space for Ultimate Skillmonkey, but that's probably still pushing things a bit.
I'd like to see more of the type of stuff that's in the Mastering Magic chapter of UM. Advanced golem building rules, better magic item creation rules, etc.
Also, an expanded set of mass combat/kingdom rules based on Kingmaker would be cool.
Quit the `Haters want Rules Books to stop` bit.
The whole thread is about what other focus Rules books can have BESDIES new classes, feats, archetypes, class options.
There`s plenty of stuff besides that, that still is rules, and still may sell well. Really.
The `controvery` is pretty silly, given that James Jacobs already stated that after Ult. Combat,
they probably won`t be doing `Class Option` Rules Books for the immediate future.
There are people making reasonable arguments in this thread. Such as, 2 player option books in the span of a year is probably too much. This I would probably agree with, if it weren't for my desire for symmetry and not wanting to give magic users a leg up for more than a couple months here.
There are other people saying just plain stop releasing things. Those people are haters and they're gonna hate and it doesn't affect my enjoyment of Paizo's, thus far, singularly fantastic releases.
To be honest, I don't NEED anything more because APG was just that good. I would eventually like more of the options it showed us, without the new spells or magic items or classes. Just archetypes, feats, and PrCs.
Thing is, that's all I'll buy. I don't buy golarion books, and when I have run APs/modules it has been shoehorned into an existing campaign setting or my own.
But then I'm not starting threads telling Paizo to slow down on fluff releases :)
The APs no longer only assume the core rulebooks.Demonstrably false. Paizo has continually stated that APs will only have core content OR will print the entirety of the rules needed in the AP. So far, unless I'm mistaken, there has been one single NPC who was a witch and the whole of the rules printed in that module was like a couple paragraphs.
You're grasping at straws.
Sadly she is not incorrect. As of carrion Crown they do indeed include non core items without reprinting. Something they never announced but snuck in.
So far it has been limited to monsters {something they had always reprinted before, yes even open content} But they have started not reprinting non core items.
I honestly think I would cancel my RPG sub before the APG if I could go back. It's a nice shiny book that I don't think I will get any use out of. But dang my collector habit and need of symmetry, now that I have UM, I have to get UC. Arg blarg, curse myself, yadda yadda. XD
I dunno, if you're serious about wanting to get into my game when you get back to the states, you'll probably get some use out of APG, and UM and UC as well.
I am not exactly jumping with joy because of the new option books but I don't see a problem with them either.
Just tell your players that you don't plan on using option books in your campaigns and thats it.
A lot of people actually like option books and If that's earning money for Paizo, so be it.
So far it has been limited to monsters {something they had always reprinted before, yes even open content} But they have started not reprinting non core items.
That is a legitimate complaint, and should be brought up in the AP/PFS forums.
Quit the `Haters want Rules Books to stop` bit.
Actually I thought the main point was "New player options are not intrinsically a bad thing, but I would rather get them spread out in smaller books so that I can process them into my campaign. With these huge player option tomes, it really amounts to having another 300 page pile of rules to familiarize."
Other people like myself don't like them spread out because they are harder to track that way.
Some don't want them at all.
PS:I did not copy the entire post, but the quoted section seems to be the main point to me.
Will Jade Regent have ninjas? samurai?
Seems likely to me. Not too keen on Ultimate Combat though. On the other hand, I would have LOVED to see ninjas and samurai saved for a yearly themed book like Oriental Adventures in AD£D. Gunslingers have no place for me.
I know I've already chimed in on this in past months, but I've already told my players that Ultimate Magic won't be used in the campaign until its up on the PRD so I can look over it and feel confident that I'm okay with its options.
As to what I would buy instead of player's option books:
1. A planar book that dealt with planes more "generically" than the Great Beyond, i.e. a book that is more about planar hazards, planar conditions, and alternate planes that may still work as being connected to Golarion, but aren't Golarion specific.
Not that I don't like Golarion, but I think a book like this, divorced of specific campaign setting tie ins, is still a useful product, especially with the non-Golarion planar names that Paizo was careful to include in the Gamemastery Guide.
2. A big book of useful NPCs. In fact, I could handle more than one of these. One with humans of various classes and levels, one that has various humanoid races at different classes and levels, with lots of campaign niches covered.
And even though I really am not a fan of expanded what gets fully stated out and what doesn't in the APs, in a product like this, I'd be fine with a 15th level cavalier that just has his stats and not full explanations of his abilities.
3. Bestiaries. Honestly, I don't think the game has ever suffered from having too many monsters, so long as the monsters are well thought out and useful, and not just one trick ponies with horrible names or excuses to play with the rules rather than come up with an evocative encounter.
4. Epic rules. I'd love something that finds a nice balance between the old Immortals rules for BECMI D&D and 3.5's epic level handbook. Something that doesn't try to scale infinitely, and doesn't just feel like the same thing with bigger numbers, but doesn't quite feel as alien as the Immmortals rules did either.
5. Kingdom building and warfare. Large scale campaigns built around the themes of building castles, kingdoms, and armies. Expand and refine the rules from Kingmaker, and add all of the bells and whistles that an AP can't shove into an article, and on top of that, give us some rules for owning shops and just normal buildings that make some sense and don't seem to make it impossible from some lower class merchant to have ever afforded his shop on the corner, since it must have cost him 2,000 gp to build.
6. Psychic abilities. While it may seem like a player option, its a very niche player option, like epic level rules. Its different, and it would be the whole theme of the book. Make psychic abilities feel like psychic abilities, throw in some stuff that doesn't feel quite as divorced from "normal" campaigning, but still all revolves around people born with second site, or the ability to heal with a touch, or read minds, that aren't spellcasters.
Heck, you can tie in a bunch of dream related material as well.
7. The wilderness! How to make encounters that feel like they make sense for people traveling across the wild. How to make traveling across the wild an adventure in itself. Rules for weather and outdoor hazards for all sorts of terrain, from hot sandy deserts to underseas, to mountains and forests, etc. The terrain books in 3.5 were actually a lot of fun, but I think there was some filler that padded them out that could have been cut to make one big wilderness, um . . . survival guide work.
8. The high seas! How do ships work? How does ship combat work? How many more ships can you give stats too that will matter in the campaign? What about encounters where the ship has to escape a whirlpool or a storm? I'll grant you, it may turn out that you can do the all of this in the above wilderness book, but I also think it might be worth its own supplement.
I've said this before, but I would have gotten a lot less concerned about burnout/bloat, what have you if this year's hardcover line up had been a player's book, a campaign hardcover for something like Tien Xia, and another bestiary or NPC book.
Erik Mona had also asked in other venues what pace people would like to see Hardcovers come out. I'm actually not too bad with three hardcovers, but I'd rather have two rules oriented books, with no more than one player focused, and one hardcover dedicated to the campaign setting.
But that's just my two cents. Paizo doesn't have to cater to me, and it's possible that my opinions are not representational, but if I never point them out, then they aren't represented at all. I'm not trying to win anyone over to my side, I'm just saying what I would buy and what would make me happy.
And also, I do want to give Paizo my money, if they want to make what I want to buy.