Controlling summoned monsters, link, Druid / Paladin / Ranger / Summoner

[Elias Darrowphayne]

Ok well here is my question as i have to ask it for a developer or other official persons to answer as my DM would only trust the word of one such person.

Here is the problem: My DM rules that since classes alike Druid and summoner have the Link ability which allows them to handle there animal companion/edilon as a free action. my Dm sees this as precedent and uses it to justify that you have to use a standard action, each round that you have a summoned creature to control that creature. if you have multiple summoned creatures you can handle them all as a standard action but you still have to use a standard action because summoning does not give you the link ability.

Now i think this is stupid and not how the rules are suppose to work at all. But my DM will not listen to me because "Well if the designers wanted it to work that way they would of given you the link ability with what you summon"

as currently you have to give up your standard to allow your summon to attack each round or it does nothing. taking you out of the combat for a lower lvl creature. He says that this is what separates a summoner from a sorcerer because otherwise "why ever play a summoner?"

can anyone official help me out here?

[wraithstrike]

I am official. :) Ok not really, but you do have to have a way to communicate with your summoned monster. Since these are animals you need to be able to direct them.

The link ability is a class ability, and can not just be given out to everyone just for a spell.

How do you direct animals, with the handle animal skill if your GM insist on using RAW. What action is the handle animal skill?

prd wrote:

Action: Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while “pushing” an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle an animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.) For tasks with specific time frames noted above, you must spend half this time (at the rate of 3 hours per day per animal being handled) working toward completion of the task before you attempt the Handle Animal check. If the check fails, your attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal fails and you need not complete the teaching, rearing, or training time. If the check succeeds, you must invest the remainder of the time to complete the teaching, rearing, or training. If the time is interrupted or the task is not followed through to completion, the attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal automatically fails.

Now since the animals are coming from a spell that is made for them to attack it would follow logic that they have the attack trick, but since that is not stated he may force you to use a full round action which I don't think any other GM would do.

As for summons from the summon monster list you still need to be able to communicate with them. By the book speaking is a free action so as long as you can speak their language or they know your it should not be an issue.

Unless he is going to houserule their ears don't work, and in that case none of use can help you.

As for the asking for an official response it always summons me instead of a developer, but in all seriousness asking for one never helps any more than not asking for one. Your best bet is to ask this in the "Ask James Jacobs thread, and hope that he answers it. He is pretty lenient with the rules sometimes, and may give you a better option than my RAW interpretation of handling animals.

The Ask James Jacobs thread is a real thread.

I hope James can help you even if I can not.

[Dangleberry Tagnut]

Elias Darrowphayne wrote:

But my DM will not listen to me because "Well if the designers wanted it to work that way they would of given you the link ability with what you summon".

He says that this is what separates a summoner from a sorcerer because otherwise "why ever play a summoner?".

You mean, apart from a fully customisable at every level bodyguard/utility pet?

[Dangleberry Tagnut]

On a more serious note;

Looking at the summoning spells RAW, they start as level 1 spells, castable from character level 1, and lasting a minimum of 1 round.

Therefore, they are spells that are expected to be useful at level 1 onwards, and see frequent use by low-level PCs.

If a level 1 caster had to spend a full round summoning, telegraphing that they are casting a long spell that can be disrupted, deal with incoming attacks/damage, and the resultant Concentration checks, wait for the creature to arrive, then spend his first standard action in the next round to give the creature an order, via the Handle Animal skill, which is not guaranteed to be understood, then that's a lot of time spent moving slowly, making themselves a target, for very little gain.
The creature still has to roll to hit, breach Prot from Alignment, beat DR, and do how much damage? At SM1, you're looking at d4, d6. Then it disappears.
Why go through all that? Why not just cast Magic Missile, for an auto hit and run?

The spell already has multiple downsides to offset its large variety, and scaling duration, without adding further limitations above.

I do agree with wraithstrike that a means of communication is a good idea, and should be required for any complex plans, but that should not apply to the default 'Bite him!' application. Most animals have some kind of instinct which makes them effectively more cunning than their Int score would dictate (hence pack tactics, trip, etc are standard M.O.). They should probably also follow the last command given, without needing constant pushing, unless the balance of the battlefield radically changes.

There are also many creatures on the low-level lists that cannot be communicated with at all until much higher level, such as mindless vermin. Is it the intent of the OP's GM that such creatures as spiders and scorpions should be off-limits unless cast by a higher level caster?

I usually, when playing PCs or NPCs who intend to make use of summoning spells, try to ensure the character has a wide variety of languages, since this makes ordering the troops into complex situations much easier, but I don't believe it should be essential for basic usage.

[Papa-DRB]

The PRD says nothing about having to handle the summoned creature.

PRD wrote:

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Only if you want it to do something other than attack the "nearest" opponent, would you have to "handle" it.

Handle Animal skill does not even come into play with the summoning spells.

-- david
Papa.DRB

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[reefwood]

Summon Monster says:

Quote:

It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Summon Nature's Ally says:

Quote:

The summoned ally appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions as you command.

Both say that the summoned creature attacks your opponents. If you want it to do something other than attack (or attack someone in particular), then you have to direct in some manner. How to direct the creature could depend on multiple factors, including language and intelligence, but I think verbal orders should work fine if you share a language. Although, an animal would probably require a Handle Animal check, and even though most summoned animal probably know how to attack other creatures and do other things too, they don't have the Attack trick (i.e. you don't know how to tell them to attack), so I could see how it would be necessary to "push" an animal as a full-round action but only to direct it to do something other than attack, or maybe to attack a specific enemy.

But the default is that the summoned creature attacks opponents, so you shouldn't need to make any effort for it to attack opponents. How does it know who is your opponent? I don't know, but hey, it's magic. I suppose part of the summon is that it learns who is friend or foe. Maybe that's why the spell takes so long to cast? ;) Also, I would add that a summoned creature it probably goes for the nearest opponent (unless directed otherwise), and when that opponent goes down, it moves to the next nearest one.