Hi there,
The party I DM in Shackled City (playing 3.5) just ended a night's gaming starting the encounter with Triel Eldurast in Ch.3, and I'm afraid that with one little act I've sentenced half the party to gruesome death. Here's the set-up: The party had inadvertently set off the alarm, so Triel was on alert and accompanied by Alleybashers. The party had charmed a hillfolk thug early on and gotten a rough idea where Triel was in the complex, and made a bee-line for her. They found her room, found the trap, accidentally set it off harmlessly while the door was closed so took no damage (but alerted Triel to their immediate presence outside and let her buff), disabled the trap, and opened the lock. 4 readied bow attacks from the Alleybashers greeted them when they opened the door, but none hit. 3 party members moved into the room (the scout, ranger, and cleric) and managed to take out one Alleybasher, while three others (the bard, wizard, druid, and the druid's dire badger) stayed in the hallway to buff. Triel charged the cleric but missed, ending the first round of combat. I finished the night with the first action of the next round: an Alleybasher ran across the room to the door, took damage from the scout's attack of opportunity in the process, closed the door, and locked it, effectively splitting the party in half. The scout had to take 20 on the lock to open it last time, and that's not going to be an option this time. I think it's quite possible that a fully buffed Triel might wipe out all three party members in the room with her before the other 3 can get in to help, if they can get in at all. (It's a stone door, I don't think they have any spells prepped that will help them get around/through it, and they aren't strong enough to break it down or destroy it quickly, even if the druid wildshapes.)
I'm not afraid to kill PC's, but I want to make sure I'm being fair, and because the door-locking was the last action of the session, I figure I can walk it back without much difficulty. I'm thinking this: if the Alleybasher could lock the door, it must have a locking mechanism that doesn't require a key, so if one of the players in the room can get to the mechanism, he should be able to unlock it and let the rest of the party in. Otherwise, only someone with the key (Triel) should have been able to lock the door, and I shouldn't have let the Alleybasher lock it at all. The text of the adventure doesn't describe the locking mechanism, so no help there. I guess my question is, if you were DM in this situation, would you leave the action as stands but let the door be unlockable easily from the inside? or make the players use Open Lock just like on the other side? Or rewind the tape a bit and leave the door open in the first place?
The door might have a regular lock. If so then unlocking it is pretty trivial since they just saw the bad guy lock it. Of course if the bad guy is in the doorway and guarding the lock then removing him is now a priority. The people that are trapped should be trying to use open lock to get out. Out of couriosity what is the DC on the lock?
If the lock is complicated then I don't think bad guy should have been able to run across the run, close the door and lock it. In which case he might take another AoO for trying to manipulate the lock, and I would give the PC's a chance to make an intelligence check to find out how to work the mechanism.
Edit: I still have the hardcover book. If I don't reply in about 5 minutes give me a page number if you can.
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Hi, I'm a former player of this AP, and I've been able to read it after we finished.
If it doesn't otherwise specify, I'd assume Triel would be the one with the key, and there probably wouldn't be many spares (if any).
She's unlikely to trust a spare key to an Alleybasher, who IIRC, are local hired muscle, who only recently became allies after being trounced by the Last Laugh.
So, unless the key was already in the lock (unlikely, if it just got picked) or on a nearby table, I wouldn't have the thug be able to lock the door in one action, not without having to make a rushed Open Lock check. Given the DC of this lock was enough to slow down the party rogue, who probably has better stats, and more ranks, I'd say that's out of the Alleybasher's league.
What he can do, is drop any latch, or slide a bar if one is described in the room. These can often be more difficult to defeat than a lock, and don't require any special training on his behalf.
If there's no latch, no bar, and no key, then he's limited to dragging some furniture in the way (may be too heavy or take too long), or bracing the door with his body, so the PCs will have to Bull Rush him aside (maybe with a bonus to his defence for the weight and cover of the door?).
Of course, you don't actually have to retcon if you don't want. If it was the last action of the session, and no-one's actually tried the door yet, you could always say the thug shouted that he'd locked the door, in an inspired attempt at psychological warfare...
The description of the doors in the ruins is on p. 112, and tells us that the stone kopru doors pivot on a central bar, and the cultists fitted some with locks. The description of the door in Triel's room (on p. 118) says only, "The door to this room is locked (DC 30); Triel has the key." In neither place does the book tell us whether the locks can only be operated with a key from both sides, or whether there's a way to lock them from the inside without a key, by turning a knob to shoot a deadbolt or something. Both kinds obviously exist in the real world, and without any determinate guidance from the book, I figure I can decide which it is by fiat. I guess my instinct is to let there be a knob the Alleybasher could easily turn to engage the lock from the inside, but if the party members inside the room can kill him or move him out of the way, they should be able to open the lock just as easily and without a key. I'd be surprised if they couldn't accomplish that in the next round since the Alleybashers aren't terribly difficult opponents.
In 3.5e, I'd say Move + Close Door is a full round of action for the Alleybasher. That is, locking the door is not a free action -- holding the door shut is a free action, but it's not locked yet and the people on the other side could attempt to Bull Rush him back (with a significant bonus for having the door in the way, at least +2, maybe even +5 since it's a heavy stone door).
I would assume (just spit balling here) the lock is a dead bolt -- not springloaded, but open or closed only with manual action. From the outside, operating the lock requires a key or Open Lock or Knock spell, etc.
From the inside, operating the lock means turning a knob.
It's a Move Equivalent action from either side.
Also, just to be clear though this seems obvious, I'd only allow someone to open/close the lock or door if they are occupy the square adjacent to the door -- no reaching around people. If people are struggling for control of that square/the door/the lock, I'd use grappling rules.
As for shooting out the lock, I'd make that difficult. Probably damage resistance for iron, AC5 if they are not adjacent to the door (adjacent = auto crit), and I dunno for HP for it -- that might be in the DMG, but I'd go with maybe 10 hp if it's a solid, well-made lock. I've heard "shooting out a lock" doesn't really work well in real life, often leaving the lock seriously jammed and unopenable!
If your groups level 4 or greater and the arcane caster doesn't have a scroll of knock, a chime of opening or the battering ram spell meme'd or scrolled he isn't very good at his job.
I play "old" school blaster caster mages so a web in the room instead of buffing the fighter type is more effective or even a stinking cloud as opposed to being a "buffer". Thats just my opinion.
We always think like that so maybe this will be helpfull in teaching them to be better prepared. You may "waste" money on a silver dagger until you need it against a werewolf.
The theif can't pick a locked chest, NP, break out the adamanitie hacksaw.
Money=better equipments/scrolls.
Allowing your players the easy way out isn't herklping them become better players and they will expect the villians to play by the rules and not be "really" evil. Book of Vile Darkness anyone?
I'm not saying TPK but the best sessions are the ones where the villians are actually played to their fullest capacity.
@Haakon, I was thinking exactly along your lines, except I was treating closing the door and locking it as a single move action, which seems reasonable to me if it's just a matter of twisting a knob to shoot a deadbolt. The Alleybasher used his whole turn getting to the door, closing it, and locking it, and took damage on an AoO in the process. But I was already thinking you had to be directly in front of the door to operate the lock, and I now intend that Alleybasher to go total defense and try to guard the lock.
@Steven, point well taken. They're almost all relatively new to the game, and I've been trying to warn them all along about the importance of preparing for a wide range of situations, but so far they've almost all focused on just dishing out damage as fast as possible. Maybe this will be the hard lesson they need to smarten up, and the good news is that only *half* of their team would get wiped out inside the room :/ If the first half gets wiped out, maybe I could have the Stormblades show up with a chime of opening, but only offer to help if they get to claim whatever wands are in the room with Triel; that seems a pleasantly evil thing to do to the party :)
@Roth, since the text underdetermines how the lock works, I guess my instinct is to say that I should choose whatever sort of lock allows for the most interesting and fun encounter. The question then is, which is more fun, having the Alleybasher lock the door and then have the players inside the room have to decide whether to focus on fighting Triel or opening the door? Or have the door merely closed and have the players outside trying to force the door back open? On the one hand, I think the situation would be more tense with the door actually locked, but then the players on the outside will really have nothing to do until the players on the inside get the door open, since they have no resources available to get it open from that side and no chance of picking the lock or breaking the door down. On the other hand, part of me thinks that's what they deserve for hanging back to buff. Either way, there's going to be an interesting struggle in front of the door.
@Roth. Oddly enough, I disagree with you on doing whatever seems fun at the time.
I think in running a game for the long term, consistency and not breaking the "suspension of disbelief" are very important. For example, if closing and locking a door is a move + free action in this campaign, it should always be that -- whether it's fun in a particular situation or not -- unless there's some really compelling and specific reason for it to be different in this case.
If you're consistent, the players can interact with their world in a predictable way, as if it were real.
If the laws of the universe change on the whim of the DM, it's harder for the player's choice of action to actually matter. And my Rule 0 is more "the world must make sense + what the player choose to do always matters" than "everything must always be fun" or the old-school "DM is always right".
Sometimes it's hard to predict what will turn out fun anyhow -- the disaster averted is fun sometimes, and the disaster realized can be just as much fun sometimes!
When I'm playing, two things annoy me.
(1) "You can't do that" responses, like it's a computer game and that option isn't programmed in. E.g.: Me: "I want to talk to the gate guards on the village wall (of a village whose boss we also work for) and ask him who came in and out since last night." DM: "Yeah, they're friendly and stuff, but they say just the usual people." Me: "I'm trying to figure out who might have carried in the scroll last night. Can they tell me who went in and out last night?" DM: "Just the usual people." (I realize this is needed sometimes, but I try to minimize it as a DM.)
(2) DM moving the goalposts. Making things easier or harder midfight to "make it more fun". Getting knocked down with -7 hp in every other fight in 3.5e gets a little suspicious that it might not be precisely dice-dictated outcomes. (Again, sometimes this stuff is a good idea for the story -- particularly if it's to save a PC that would otherwise die for no good reason -- but try not to "cheat" much, and never to be repetitive or obvious about it. Let the dice speak for themselves and roll in the open for the big rolls, most of the time.)
I agree with you in spirit, Haakon, and in saying that I would choose how to handle the door/lock on the basis of what's the most fun, I don't mean to sacrifice consistency. If I decide that in the Kopru ruins the lockable doors can be locked from the inside with the twist of a knob as a free action for someone in the right square, that will be true of all lockable doors in that dungeon. (and given that turning a knob is just a flick of the wrist, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that that be a free action, and it will of course be free for PCs as well.) On the other hand, things might be different in the next dungeon if it seems plausible that the locks there might operate differently.
Incidentally, I actually had to deal with the sort of situation you're describing at the town gate when my players were trying to track down Triel. One of their only leads was that the Alleybashers were involved, so reasonably enough, they started trying to find out what they could about the Alleybashers, and since one of the party is an urban ranger with Urban Tracking and a high Gather Information score, what do you know? they were doing pretty well tracking them down. But I didn't want to give them info like the location of Alleybashers HQ (since that's part of a later chapter, and I don't want them wiping it out ahead of time.) So I let them find out some things about Alleybashers whom they had either just killed at the Lucky Monkey or who were hiding out with Triel, but I decided that pretty much all the active Alleybashers were either dead or in the ruins, so they weren't able to find one to talk to. I was serving the interests of the larger story, but trying to not make their successes useless either. Tough line to walk sometimes!
@Cleanthes. Right, agree with you on that. My point was "Good for the goose is good for the gander" -- not about the particular rule issue on locking a door. As long as it works the same way for PC's and NPC's, it's fine to rule it either way.
Hmm, I haven't even started the AP yet -- about two sessions/half a year at our rate of play away -- but it's an interesting problem that PC's could try to "skip ahead". I wonder how others handle that?
Can SCAP be sandboxy, or only railroady? I'm guessing it can be in between (which is pretty much what most campaigns I've seen are).
Yeah, that's always a tricky thing to handle. There are clearly some things I need to not let drop too soon -- who's really calling the shots in Cauldron, what the role of the Last Laugh is and who runs it, the identities of the real bad guys and where to find them, etc., but I also need to do effective foreshadowing, and I need to let the players' information seeking skills be useful (and with the party wizard being a diviner, I have to be extra careful, although he hasn't shown himself very alert to the possibilities of divination spells yet. They're looking for the wands of control water, and so far as I know he hasn't brought any scrolls of locate object along o.O) I've tried to let the campaign be as sandboxy as possible, though, by giving them lots of NPC's to play with (beyond the ones listed in the campaign book) and letting them decide how to inhabit the city. I've also given the players a lot of opportunities to tell me what sorts of encounters and challenges they would like to see happen at some point, and I've tried to provide them or at least lay the foundations for them as often as possible -- though sometimes the players won't nibble at my leads. We did a ton of that sort of thing in the Flood Festival; I worked up a dozen different sorts of competitions and encounters between the ones in the book, ones other people have made up, and ones I made myself, and let people decide how and how much they wanted to be involved. The Flood Festival must have taken 2 months of playing, meeting once a week, but they loved it all. I have heard, however, of people doing totally sandboxy city campaigns; I seem to remember reading an editorial in Dungeon years ago, maybe by Eric Mona, saying that one of his favorite campaigns of all time had involved a city he created where there was no over-arching plot line he set out with; the players evolved the whole adventure as they went by choosing what to explore. Must be a ton of work for the DM, or he must have to be an incredible improviser, but it sounds like a lot of fun!
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One of their only leads was that the Alleybashers were involved, so reasonably enough, they started trying to find out what they could about the Alleybashers, and since one of the party is an urban ranger with Urban Tracking and a high Gather Information score, what do you know? they were doing pretty well tracking them down. But I didn't want to give them info like the location of Alleybashers HQ (since that's part of a later chapter, and I don't want them wiping it out ahead of time.)...
I was serving the interests of the larger story, but trying to not make their successes useless either. Tough line to walk sometimes!
Trying to storm the Alleybashers HQ could get them killed, but it's true, if your PCs are focussed on information gathering, and capture some of the gang, it's a natural conclusion to go there.
They shouldn't get TPK'ed for following what they think is the obvious hook.If my players were to go there several levels early, I'd just have the place be packed to the rafters with revellers (it is Flood Festival, after all). They can't tell who's a gang member, and who's an innocent member of the public, so they can't just go 'kill'em all and let the gods sort'em out'.
Let Mr Detective know that his efforts have turned up the goods, but it's info that will be useful later. The player doesn't feel cheated, they can still follow one of the staff home after hours, and overhear a conversation that puts them back on track in the caves.
I advise AGAINST backing up and saying that the door isn't locked. I am against backing up in 99.9% of all cases.
Most locks in our world lock from one side only. This was true of those few doors in medieval times that had locks, too. So, yes, Triel has a key, but its for the side of the door facing the hallway. The side facing her room wouldn't have a key lock IMO.
As for it being a free action, that is easily explained by saying that it is a well greased lock. I have a dead bolt that takes a minor finger flick to completely engage, so I don't think it is unreasonable for Triel to have a similar door.
And it doesn't have to apply to every lock in her "dungeon." She's the boss, she gets a special door, it's got graphite in the mechanism.
But it should be just as easy to unlock from her side, too. If you want to avoid a TPK and not back up, just have Triel fall victim to the classic villian blunder of gloating. You can even work some of your foreshadowing into her cackling:
"All too easy. Perhaps you are not as powerful as the Eye believed."
Party kills Alleybasher, opens door. "Impressive . . . most impressive."
OR
"I was told you'd present a challenge. Hmph! Quite the disappointment. You aren't even worth my time. Alleybashers, destroy them!"
You get the idea. Once the party re-unites and wins the day, questions remains. Eye? Who's the Eye? What was she talking about?!?
Well, maybe if you let us interrogate her instead of hanging her by her own entrails, we might get some answers!!!
Wait for the foggy diviner to NOT think of Speak with Dead. Move on.
So here's how it went:
The Alleybashers tried to hold the door, but the party was able to get it open pretty quickly. They took out the guy standing in front of the lock in the next round. And meanwhile, out in the hallway the druid figured out that she could summon a thoqqua and have it burn through the wall, so there was suddenly a burning hot tunnel to crawl through as well. Once the door was open, the party opened up full bore on Triel, and she was only able to get in one full attack before they took her down with all the 3rd level spells they could muster. On the other hand, in that one full attack she hit the party cleric with both her attacks, including a smite, and left him with only a couple hit points. He was quaking in his boots, let me tell you! If the party scout hadn't managed to trip Triel with his spiked chain, forcing her to use a move to stand up and making it so she couldn't pursue the cleric, she might well have killed him. All things considered, though, the party made some good choices and worked well as a team. I sure wish I could have gotten in one more good attack, though!
So here's how it went:
The Alleybashers tried to hold the door, but the party was able to get it open pretty quickly. They took out the guy standing in front of the lock in the next round. And meanwhile, out in the hallway the druid figured out that she could summon a thoqqua and have it burn through the wall, so there was suddenly a burning hot tunnel to crawl through as well. Once the door was open, the party opened up full bore on Triel, and she was only able to get in one full attack before they took her down with all the 3rd level spells they could muster. On the other hand, in that one full attack she hit the party cleric with both her attacks, including a smite, and left him with only a couple hit points. He was quaking in his boots, let me tell you! If the party scout hadn't managed to trip Triel with his spiked chain, forcing her to use a move to stand up and making it so she couldn't pursue the cleric, she might well have killed him. All things considered, though, the party made some good choices and worked well as a team. I sure wish I could have gotten in one more good attack, though!
Sounds like they are well on their way to true team work. Heck a RP/team work exp award(minor but noticable) will reward the new players for something you as a DM would like to see more of.
The Thouqqua was a brilliant idea and the spiked chain equally so. Didn't go for damage instead saved a PC thats also a "good" hit on the alignemt scale as well in case anyones keeping track.