Overrun Specialist

[Stormfriend]

I’m putting together a PFS character who specialises in Overrun to mix up battlefield control and damage, rather than just power attacking all the time. The character will either be a human or a half-elf and will have stats of 18,14,14,10,10,10 for sake of argument.

I'm thinking of going with a fighter or barbarian at the moment, but any class that can overrun will do. The [human] builds I have so far are as follows:

Barbarian
1: Power Attack
1: Improved Overrun
2RP: Overbearing Advance
3: Combat Reflexes
4RP: Quick Reflexes
5: Charge Through
6RP: Overbearing Onslaught
7: Greater Overrun
8RP:
9:
10RP:
11:
12RP:

Fighter
1: Power Attack
1: Improved Overrun
1: Charge Through
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Step Up
4: Following Step
5: Improved Bullrush
6: Greater Overrun
7: Greater Bullrush
8: Step Up and Strike
9:
10:
11:
12:

Firstly, is there anything I’ve missed, such as feats, powers, traits or the like which will help this build (apart from the obvious such as Furious Focus, Weapon Focus etc)? By 6th or 7th level I’ll be forcing the enemies to grant me AoOs whilst performing manoeuvres due to the Greater feats, in case that suggests anything.

Secondly, have I figured out the following situation correctly for the barbarian at level 7:

Brb ABC Z

The barbarian is Brb, ABC are three mooks standing in the way, and Z is the caster I want to charge. Assume they're in a long 5' wide corridor.
I overrun A and if I succeed by 5 or more I knock him prone whilst moving through his square.
I deal Strength damage to A and get an AoO against A if he’s prone.
I then overrun B at -2, knocking him prone if I succeed by 5 or more.
I deal Strength damage to B and get an AoO against B if he’s prone.
Leaving B’s square to overrun C (or just complete the overrun against B if there is no C) provokes from A, who may be prone.
I then overrun C at -4, knocking him prone if I succeed by 5 or more.
I deal Strength damage to C and get an AoO against C if he’s prone.
Leaving C’s square to charge Z (or just complete the overrun against C if there’s no Z) provokes from B, who may be prone.
Leaving the next square whilst moving towards Z then provokes from C, who may be prone.
I hit Z at my normal charge bonus. If I can't charge through multiple opponents by combining Overbearing Onslaught and Charge Through then treat the details above as just overrunning multiple enemies and ignore Z at the end.

Think of it as a melee lightning bolt :-)

Questions:
1) Can I overrun Z, do strength damage and take an AoO against Z for the overrun if he's prone, and then make my charge attack against Z too from the right of Z? The description of Overrun in the Combat section makes me wonder this.
2) Where do I end up if I fail any of the overruns? If I knocked prone the previous target who’s square I’m now standing in? If I overran that target but didn’t knock him prone so we’re both standing in the same square?
3) If I replace mooks ABC with allies I’m assuming they can just stand aside (during the Overrun) and I charge Z normally. If my charge at Z is at penalties for doing the overruns earlier does this still apply if the overrun targets got out of the way? Or if I overrun Z during the charge is the overrun attack at -6 even if my allies stepped aside? Same question if I can't combine Overbearing Onslaught with Charge Through, just assume 1 ally or enemy in the way, with the Overrun attack on Z at -2 in that case.
4) If your brain hasn’t melted yet, can I build in Acrobatics checks during the movement that contains Overruns to avoid AoOs from ABC? Can I be using Acrobatics when leaving Bs square to avoid the AoO from A whilst simultaneously Overrunning C? If not, can I use Acrobatics whilst leaving the square to the right of C to avoid the AoO from C? Can I use Acrobatics whilst charging for that matter? The question still applies if not as I can do multiple Overruns even when not charging.
5) Do ABC provide cover against each other for purposes of preventing AoOs against me? What if they’re prone? Would that cover also affect my AoOs if I technically take them in the following square on completion of the Overrun rather than in the square they occupy whilst I’m Overrunning them?

At 6th level the fighter can do something similar, but only with a single target in the way so it’s a lot simpler. The fighter wouldn’t do strength damage on an Overrun but would still get the AoO if he knocks them prone. He makes up for it with the other tactical options such as Step Up and Bullrush. He lacks rage too, so his CMB will be lower.

Any other suggestions?

[Witch-Hunter]

Stormfriend wrote:

Barbarian
1: Power Attack
1: Improved Overrun
2RP: Overbearing Advance
3: Combat Reflexes
4RP: Quick Reflexes
5: Charge Through
6RP: Overbearing Onslaught
7: Greater Overrun

Well I run a barb that has a very similar build. In the end the barb is a much better at overrun and can use it far more situations and on more people in one turn. Note that you don't have to overrun in a straight line (if it is not a part of a charge, charging does though give you a +2 bonus on the overrun attempt). Because you can overrun multiple opponents and you have combat reflexes you will more often get way more attacks than if you took a normal full attack action.

Look at overrun carefully. When you meet or exceed their cmd you successfully move THROUGH their square w/o provoking attacks of opp. If your CMB check exceeds by 5 they fall prone. You are now on the opposite side of the target 1 or more squares and depending on how you read the rules you are not provoking any AoOs for the maneuver, even when you leave their threatened squares behind them.. that is the whole point of overrun, to get through to the other side w/o provoking AoOs if you are taking AoOs because you leave their threatened square it kind of defeats the whole purpose since overrun can be combined with movement. However, different judges have run it differently because it is not 100% clear. Most treat it like ride by attack but for the barb its multiple targets.

If you use the charge as part of an overrun its complicated in your scenario with the barb and target Z you would run over abc (taking Attacks of opportunity if you knock them prone) then you would resolve your charge attack on Z and then your overrun on him. It then functions a lot of ways as ride by attack because you continue your movement after the charge and it does not provoke from the target or targets of your over run. Depending on the judge I guess but this is how I have seen it resolved most often.

As a strategy I suggest a traveling partner that also has combat reflexes, cleave (or other multi attack as a standard action) and a decent AC aka Bait. Let Bait move up and have the bad guys surround him or her (delay if you need to) ideally he will have readied a cleave attack for 2 adjacent opponents. Bait cleaves. Then when it is your turn overrun as many of the bad guys as you can that are threatened by the bait. Both you and the bait will get AoO's vastly increasing the number of attacks you would both get and often killing the bad guys even before the issue of if they can attack you after you leave their square even comes up.

Obviously a belt +6 strength is fantastic for this build... Since you are getting 4 AoOs currently at 4th level and you don't really need dex for more.. though a +2 dex ioune stone may help a little for a 5th AoO though I have never needed more than 4 and I'm up to 10th level.

Also consider if you have a buddy to take paired opportunist with at 9th level. Then you will get the +4 for prone and +4 for paired opportunist.. it’s nice :)

[Dal Selpher]

This... this is brilliant! I had not considered the Combat Reflexes angle here. I have a big brute of a barbarian who is built similarly who hasn't seen play yet - I'll have to tweak his feats to get Combat Reflexes.

What a great idea!

[Thunder_Child]

I would drop this whole thing on top of a level one cleric with the travel domain for the extra +10 move. So as a base move you would have 50 move speed. Then if you really want to have fun get the Exploration sub-domain and now you can have 80 ft. of single action movement for 1 min per day via expeditious retreat.

Though as a free action your opponent can drop prone, denying you your AoO....sadly.

[Brotato]

It seems to me like so much of the character is invested in building off a move that as far as I can tell, can be bested simply by not resisting the overrun. Am I missing something?

[Thunder_Child]

Brotato wrote:

It seems to me like so much of the character is invested in building off a move that as far as I can tell, can be bested simply by not resisting the overrun. Am I missing something?

From improved overrun "Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."

[Brotato]

Thunder_Child wrote:

Brotato wrote:

It seems to me like so much of the character is invested in building off a move that as far as I can tell, can be bested simply by not resisting the overrun. Am I missing something?

From improved overrun "Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."

I somehow completely missed that while reading the damn feat like 3 times. Thank you. =)

[Thunder_Child]

After looking over Overrun and Charge Through, this would not be possible as Charge Through specifies 'one' creature. So you could do
'Brb A Z'
but that would be all.

The barbarian ability Overbearing Onslaught allows you to make multiple overrun's but it does not say 'during a charge'.

So as far as I can tell RAW says no.

[Quantum Steve]

Thunder_Child wrote:

Though as a free action your opponent can drop prone, denying you your AoO....sadly.

How? You can only take immediate action when it's not your turn. Dropping prone is a free action that you can only perform on your turn. Unless I'm missing something.

[Thunder_Child]

Quantum Steve wrote:

Thunder_Child wrote:

Though as a free action your opponent can drop prone, denying you your AoO....sadly.

How? You can only take immediate action when it's not your turn. Dropping prone is a free action that you can only perform on your turn. Unless I'm missing something.

You are correct. I have always played that you can take a free action when it is not your turn as it specifically says it is less than an immediate action, however it does not state you can, with the exception of speaking.

[Stormfriend]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I re-read Overbearing Onslaught after creating the test case and then realised I needed Charge Through as well so that bit was rather tacked on the end... :-)

I like the idea of letting Bait get himself surrounded and then running around him in a little circle knocking them all prone, that's just sweet!

Has the question about provoking whilst moving away from an overrun target been FAQ'd? The movement from left of target to target's square would normally provoke, as would movement from the target's square to right of target, but Improved Overrun negates those. Negating onwards movement from there is getting another benefit, but then you only roll Acrobatics once in movement, so there is precedent. It would make the scenario listed above a lot simpler if it doesn't. I'll FAQ it if it's not already done.

I hadn't considered making a charge attack and then completing the overrun on the same target afterwards. Does your go not end with a charge? Or is that just 4e? The Charge rules say you must move before the attack, not after, but Ride by Atack might be precedent again. I need to FAQ this too. Too many grey areas!

I'd love to m/c into Cleric but boots of Striding and Springing give me a similar benefit. Likewise I'd expect Haste by 6th level, and although it won't stack with the boots it still gets me a 70' move, so not too shabby...

[Stormfriend]

Stormfriend wrote:

I hadn't considered making a charge attack and then completing the overrun on the same target afterwards.

I'm being an idiot, when using an overrun as a charge attack (standard overrun - ignoring feats and powers) then the overrun *is* the charge attack, it's not a free overrun followed by a standard attack that deals damage. It makes a lot more sense now.

But does the free overrun from Charge Through also get the +2 from charging, and do I need to move at least 10' before the free overrun?

Also if I use Charge Through, overrun the free target and then use overrun as my charge attack (instead of dealing damage) on the real target, do I get any penalties for making a second overrun attempt that round, like I would if using Overbearing Assault?

[Kaiyanwang]

A player of mine has combat reflexes, power attack, improved and greater overrun, charge through, overbearing assault, overbearing onlsaught, CaGM, reckless abandon, strenght surge and the beast totem tier right now (level 15).

Add in EWP: falcata.

trust me - SCARY