Turin Bruinnen, Elf, Ranger 8, Kingmaker campaign
- HP: 63
Fort: +6
Ref: +10
Will: +4
- 25 Point-buy
STR: 18 (+2) / +1 pump @ 4th level, Belt of Giant Strength +4
DEX: 19 (+4) / +1 pump @ 8th level
CON: 10
INT: 16 (+3)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 10
- Feats
Improved Initiative (1st)
Precise Shot (3rd)
Deadly Aim (5th)
Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow (7th)
- Combat Style: Archery
Point Blank Shot (2nd)
Manyshot (6th)
My 8th level Ranger is half-way to 9th level and I'm pretty well sold on Vital Strike. I know it only works on a single attack, but when you couple it with something like Gravity Bow, it just seems like a natural choice. Having said that, my animal companion is a Large Thylacine and I'm considering using him as a mount. I wonder if Mounted Combat wouldn't be a bad choice. Turin is a Wood Elf and just the thought of him loping along, on the back of Brun, is really cool.
Basically, as you can see, my attributes aren't exactly optimized, so I'm a little worried about what the future may hold. I want to make the very best choice that I can.
Take neither of them and quickly grab Rapid Shot. It's a whole extra arrow you can put in the air every Full Attack.
Yes it stacks with Manyshot and yes you'll need the damage bump.
I looked at Rapid Shot early on and wasn't pleased with the -2 Attack Penalty, especially when used in conjunction with Deadly Aim. I'm not saying I'm opposed to it, just I'm not fond of negatives.
One note: I just acquired Skybolt, a Composite Longbow +2 (Mighty +4) of Shock and Thundering. This necessitated selling my DEX belt and getting a +4 STR belt (couldn't afford the Belt of Physical Might +4.) Long story short, because of this new now I'm thinking I'll stop utilizing Deadly Aim for the time being. Once I get my DEX back to a +5 mod (or better), I'll likely reinstate DA.
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If you do the math, it actually works out in favor of stacking + damage bonuses even at the expense of +hit bonuses.
The extra damage more than negates the increase in misses; basically, when you hit you'll wop a much bigger wallop. Including Rapid Shot means you'll have a lot of arrows in the air every time you full attack, and so on average you'll hit more often, even with the -2 to to hit and deadly aim.
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I decided to go ahead and do the math. Hope I haven't made any mistakes....
23 is the average AC for a CR 9 creature according to the bestiary (see table [link=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation]here[/link].
Without Rapid Shot:
+4 dex
+1 WF
+2 enhancement
+9 BAB
-3 Deadly Aim
+13/+8, means you have a 55%/30% chance to hit
Damage:
+4 strength
+6 Deadly Aim
+2 Enhancement
+4.5 average weapon damage (doubled on first attack due to Many Shot)
+3.5 shock
20 total, +4.5 on first attack of a full attack action
You hit for 19.475 damage per round on average with a full attack.
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With Rapid Shot and using Deadly Aim:
+4 dex
+1 WF
+2 enhancement
+9 BAB
-3 Deadly Aim
-2 Rapid Shot
+11/11/6 means you have a 45%/45%/20% chance to hit
Damage:
Same as without rapid shot, but one more arrow and a different bonus to hit.
24.5 average damage on first shot, 20 damage on other shots
You hit for 24.025 damage per round on average with a full attack.
This issue is going to be the case most enemies appropriate for your CR, though the numbers get weird in places where you need a natural 20 to hit or anything but a 1 to hit.
Enemies with DR that you can't bypass are favored even more by using Deadly Aim with Rapid Shot, which can punch through said DR to do some damage.
If you do the math, it actually works out in favor of stacking + damage bonuses even at the expense of +hit bonuses.
I remember running the numbers when I was choosing between Manyshot and Rapidshot. At the time, it was a wash (with Manyshot being slightly better.)
Right now, with PBR and DA, I get two attacks (+13/+8) and can fly 3 arrows for 1d8+13+1d6 each. At 9th level, with RS, that could increase to 3 attacks (+12/+12/+7). That is impressive math... I need to up my DEX! Argh, why did I go with a 16 INT?
While I was responding you were doing the math too. And yeah, you got the numbers right.
Okay...
- Vital Strike - I like it because it stacks so well with Manyshot.
Rapid Shot - proven to be very effective and helps with the whole "Legolas" attitude thing.
Mounted Combat - because it's this great flavor thing; bounding through the hills aback a Dire (Large) Thylacine is just awe inspiring.
Rapid Shot is looking really good.
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If you do the math, it actually works out in favor of stacking + damage bonuses even at the expense of +hit bonuses.I remember running the numbers when I was choosing between Manyshot and Rapidshot. At the time, it was a wash (with Manyshot being slightly better.)
Right now, with PBR and DA, I get two attacks (+13/+8) and can fly 3 arrows for 1d8+13+1d6 each. At 9th level, with RS, that could increase to 3 attacks (+12/+12/+7). That is impressive math... I need to up my DEX! Argh, why did I go with a 16 INT?
It's actually 4 attacks (manyshot and rapid shot stack) and I'm betting you had some wacky idea of going Arcane Archer, which is cool. Just remember this Dex is nice but Str is better, keep your Bow up to whatever your str currently is and you will do insane damage.
Switch out the bow you currently have for a regular +2 composite bow for your Str rating (+7-8 right now?) and you'll be doing more damage on average then if you kept the proc. A LOT more damage on average (static damage bonuses are FARRRR more valuable then random procs).
While I was responding you were doing the math too. And yeah, you got the numbers right.
Okay...
Vital Strike - I like it because it stacks so well with Manyshot.
Rapid Shot - proven to be very effective and helps with the whole "Legolas" attitude thing.
Mounted Combat - because it's this great flavor thing; bounding through the hills aback a Dire (Large) Thylacine is just awe inspiring.Rapid Shot is looking really good.
Not to be a buzz kill here but I don't believe Vital Strike stacks with Manyshot. Many shot is part of a full-attack action.
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Not to be a buzz kill here but I don't believe Vital Strike stacks with Manyshot. Many shot is part of a full-attack action.While I was responding you were doing the math too. And yeah, you got the numbers right.
Okay...
Vital Strike - I like it because it stacks so well with Manyshot.
Rapid Shot - proven to be very effective and helps with the whole "Legolas" attitude thing.
Mounted Combat - because it's this great flavor thing; bounding through the hills aback a Dire (Large) Thylacine is just awe inspiring.Rapid Shot is looking really good.
Correct, Vital Strike is only used by itself and doesn't stack.
It's best used with attacks that have multiple dice of damage.
It's actually 4 attacks (manyshot and rapid shot stack)
What do you mean when you say that Manyshot and RS "stack"? As I understand it, Rapid Shot grants an additional attack, at my highest mod, so I go from a base +8/+3 to +8/+8/+3. That's 3 arrows, but with Manyshot it's actually 4 arrows (two on the first shot @ +8, and then another two @ +8 and +3.)
and I'm betting you had some wacky idea of going Arcane Archer
I hadn't considered it. However, just for grins and giggle I'm gonna look at it. I'm thinking I don't have the prereqs.
Edit: nope on the AA, I'm Divine, not Arcane.
Not to be a buzz kill here but I don't believe Vital Strike stacks with Manyshot. Many shot is part of a full-attack action.
I was given to understand that VS, when used in conjunction with MS, effected only the first shot/attack; all subsequent attacks would not gain VS effect. Is this part of an ongoing debate, or has there been an official ruling? Our DM practically murdered us last week with the Spriggen from Hell (who was utilizing VS as part of Full Attack.)
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I decided to go ahead and do the math. Hope I haven't made any mistakes....
23 is the average AC for a CR 9 creature according to the bestiary (see table [link=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation]here[/link].
Without Rapid Shot:
** spoiler omitted **You hit for 19.475 damage per round on average with a full attack.
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With Rapid Shot and using Deadly Aim:
** spoiler omitted **24.5 average damage on first shot, 20 damage on other shots
You hit for 24.025 damage per round on average with a full attack.
This issue is going to be the case most enemies appropriate for your CR, though the numbers get weird in places where you need a natural 20 to hit or anything but a 1 to hit.
Enemies with DR that you can't bypass are favored even more by using Deadly Aim with Rapid Shot, which can punch through said DR to do some damage.
Just found that I did make a major mistake, the second arrow from Many Shot gets full damage bonuses. Recalculated damage per round is 28 without rapid shot, 31 with, so the gap was closed somewhat but not entirely. It's still good to get Rapid Shot.
Just found that I did make a major mistake, the second arrow from Many Shot gets full damage bonuses. Recalculated damage per round is 28 without rapid shot, 31 with, so the gap was closed somewhat but not entirely. It's still good to get Rapid Shot.
Yeah, I see that now. I guess it hinges on how Vital Strike works. If VS is locked in as a Single Attack, then Rapid Shot seems to be the better choice. If VS can be used as part of MS (a Full Attack), then that's clearly the way to go.
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Not to be a buzz kill here but I don't believe Vital Strike stacks with Manyshot. Many shot is part of a full-attack action.I was given to understand that VS, when used in conjunction with MS, effected only the first shot/attack; all subsequent attacks would not gain VS effect. Is this part of an ongoing debate, or has there been an official ruling? Our DM practically murdered us last week with the Spriggen from Hell (who was utilizing VS as part of Full Attack.)
Vital Strike is a standard action meaning you cannot use it in the same round that you do any other standard action or a full action.
Here's the Link from Jason Buhlman declaring it.
Link
And here's the FAQ link about Vital Strike
And when I said 4 attacks it meant that each arrow is it's own separate instance of damage which matters depending on what, where and who you are fighting.
Mathwei - thanks for the clarification. With that in mind, you're suggestion of Rapid Shot is looking like the clear winner.
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Just in case you're interested, if you wanted to do Arcane Archer, all you'd need to do is pick up 1 level of Wizard at this point... or Sorcerer... or Magus... or Witch... really, anything would do. I'm not saying it's optimal, but Arcane Archer is a REALLY good prestige class, and if you wanna do nothing but archery, it can really help (hint: Sorcerers and Wizards get Gravity Bow, too. Oh, and the awesome "Arrow Eruption" spell, which allows you to, if timed correctly, let loose an enormous volley of arrows all containing the high-damage aoe spell of your choice. :D)
Also, yes, Rapid Shot is the clear winner.
Just in case you're interested, if you wanted to do Arcane Archer, all you'd need to do is pick up 1 level of Wizard at this point... or Sorcerer... or Magus... or Witch... really, anything would do. I'm not saying it's optimal, but Arcane Archer is a REALLY good prestige class, and if you wanna do nothing but archery, it can really help (hint: Sorcerers and Wizards get Gravity Bow, too. Oh, and the awesome "Arrow Eruption" spell, which allows you to, if timed correctly, let loose an enormous volley of arrows all containing the high-damage aoe spell of your choice. :D)
Also, yes, Rapid Shot is the clear winner.
Gravity Bow is a personal favorite of mine and I am aware of Arrow Eruption (that's a neat speel.) There are some really good Ranger spell choices, if not too many slots. Arcane Archer is cool and you'd think that a Elven Ranger would just naturally fit. Darn that silly Arcane requirement. As much as I think it would rock, I think I'm better off sticking with Ranger.
Well, I could dip into Rogue. Thoughts on that?
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Just in case you're interested, if you wanted to do Arcane Archer, all you'd need to do is pick up 1 level of Wizard at this point... or Sorcerer... or Magus... or Witch... really, anything would do. I'm not saying it's optimal, but Arcane Archer is a REALLY good prestige class, and if you wanna do nothing but archery, it can really help (hint: Sorcerers and Wizards get Gravity Bow, too. Oh, and the awesome "Arrow Eruption" spell, which allows you to, if timed correctly, let loose an enormous volley of arrows all containing the high-damage aoe spell of your choice. :D)
Also, yes, Rapid Shot is the clear winner.
Gravity Bow is a personal favorite of mine and I am aware of Arrow Eruption (that's a neat speel.) There are some really good Ranger spell choices, if not too many slots. Arcane Archer is cool and you'd think that a Elven Ranger would just naturally fit. Darn that silly Arcane requirement. As much as I think it would rock, I think I'm better off sticking with Ranger.
Well, I could dip into Rogue. Thoughts on that?
Aw, c'mon. It's just a one level Arcane dip :P
Seriously, though, don't go Rogue. It's nigh impossible to maintain ranged sneak attacks without extensive magic use.
Seriously, though, don't go Rogue. It's nigh impossible to maintain ranged sneak attacks without extensive magic use.
Okay, so here's why, err, going Rogue, could be kinda cool; Stag Lord's magic hat. Because I am a devotee of Erastil, when we snuffed the Stag Lord back at Level 2, I got his hat. Being able to catch an enemy off-guard, 3x a day, is just plain a nice trick. One little 'ol level of Roguery and I get to add 1d6 to those 3 attacks.
I mean, c'mon, it's just kinda cool.
Seriously, though, don't go Rogue. It's nigh impossible to maintain ranged sneak attacks without extensive magic use.
Actually, this is Kingmaker so that means the Stag Lord's Helm could be up for grabs. So don't write him out of the book yet.
In my Kingmaker game our Ranger took a dip into Rogue, mainly so to pick up magical disable device (since no one else in our party could). And as a worshiper of Erastil, he could make opponents flat-footed against his ranged full-attack 3 times a day, letting him add the sneak attack damage. Combine that with Kingmaker's relatively short work days, and you got yourself a pretty decent combination.
Edit: Completely beaten to the punch
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Good points, but I'm not a big fan of X/day items. Also, you're slowing down Ranger spells, companion progression, BAB, and other cool ranger goods for...
Trapfinding and an extra small damage boost 3/day. I CAN see the appeal... but not for a 1 level dip. Maybe if you took 5 levels or so in Rogue for a decent sneak attack boost.
Good points, but I'm not a big fan of X/day items. Also, you're slowing down Ranger spells, companion progression, BAB, and other cool ranger goods for...
Trapfinding and an extra small damage boost 3/day. I CAN see the appeal... but not for a 1 level dip. Maybe if you took 5 levels or so in Rogue for a decent sneak attack boost.
9th Level Ranger is a +1 Will save (need that) and Evasion and a +1 BAB... That's all great stuff in comparison to what 1st Level Rogue offers. And that's why I think PF succeeded when they revamped the classes. I mean, as much I think a level of Rogue would be neat, I just can't bring myself to deviate from Ranger.
Okay - I'm convinced - going Ranger 9 and more than likely taking Rapid Shot. At 10th, we'll just throw in Shield Surfing...