If I understand the process of a wizard using a touch attack spell it is this:
1. Take Move action as normal before/during/after casting the spell. However wizard must be within 5 ft of enemy during the touch portion.
2. Take standard action to cast the spell. Provokes normal AoO.
3. Make attack roll to touch the enemy. Failure means the spell may still be charged for another try next turn. Success means the enemy gets no saving throw to avoid.
Is this correct?
Almost. You have to look at the spell to see if a saving throw is allowed or not since some touch spells do allow saving throws.
1. Take Move action as normal before/during/after casting the spell. However wizard must be within 5 ft of enemy during the touch portion.
I take it by "during" you mean cast-move-touch, then it's ok.
Also take into account that the casting time can be longer than a standard action.
If I understand the process of a wizard using a touch attack spell it is this:
1. Take Move action as normal before/during/after casting the spell. However wizard must be within 5 ft of enemy during the touch portion.
2. Take standard action to cast the spell. Provokes normal AoO.
3. Make attack roll to touch the enemy. Failure means the spell may still be charged for another try next turn. Success means the enemy gets no saving throw to avoid.
Is this correct?
I just noticed the "during". What do you mean by that?
I see no reason to allow the "touch" to come in the middle of movement.
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I see no reason to allow the "touch" to come in the middle of movement.
I agree; that's kind of what spring attack is for. Of course, if you're running more of a narrative game, then it'd be fine. RAW, though; you make the touch attack [standard action] either before or after you move. Holding the charge simply allows you to cast the spell and still use it the next round if nobody presents themselves for magical death tag.
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
I've always read the second sentence as an exhaustive list of mutually exclusive options, and still do. I guess it might be interpreted otherwise.
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In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.I've always read the second sentence as an exhaustive list of mutually exclusive options, and still do. I guess it might be interpreted otherwise.
I agree. No move both before and after the touch.
James, I appreciate it is a free action in the round that the spell is cast. "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." Whether the word while here universally means "in the middle of" or "in addition to" is a matter of interpretation.
Regardless of which side anyone comes down on that interpretation, "However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM." And, frankly, the movement both prior to and after the attack is based upon employing a degree of deconstruction to accomplish that, based upon the context of the rest of the rules system I would be fine on saying that is outside the reasonable limits.
My understanding is that, by the RAW, you can't perform an action during another action unless you have an ability that specifically allows you to do so. So unless you had two move actions, or spring attack, you couldn't make a touch attack during a move action.
Also, note the comment at the end of the spring attack feat:
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
It does not say you cannot move before and after an attack ACTION. I'd say that at the very least it violates the spirit of spring attack.
Can I get a link on that? Never read that before o.O
It's in the Combat section of the core rules, so please search this PRD page for "Touch Spells in Combat".
The touch attack is performed as a part of the spell. If you don't use it right then then it is it's own attack action. In other words it becomes a standard action, and since you already used a standard action to cast the spell you have to wait until the next round.
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
edit:I stand corrected. I never knew about that.
edit2:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
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I agree. No move both before and after the touch.James, I appreciate it is a free action in the round that the spell is cast. "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." Whether the word while here universally means "in the middle of" or "in addition to" is a matter of interpretation.
I see nothing stopping one from taking a free action during a move. One could say that you can draw a weapon as a free action during a move, right? Certainly drawing ammunition is done in the middle of a full attack action, right?
I think there is ample evidence in the rules to support free actions being taken in the middle of other actions.
I acknowledged that there are various interpretations with this. I'm not going to debate it. Some will end their decision making there. Others won't; it's moot. I then continued:
Regardless of which side anyone comes down on that interpretation, "However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM." And, frankly, the movement both prior to and after the attack is based upon employing a degree of deconstruction to accomplish that, based upon the context of the rest of the rules system I would be fine on saying that is outside the reasonable limits.
You see it inside the reasonable limits to extend an explicit exception (drawing a weapon while moving), and what is an aggregation of other actions (drawing ammo in a full round attack sequence), to splitting movement with an attack. Go for it.
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Spring Attack (Combat)
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
Touch Spells in combat
"to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll"
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round
A touch attack is still an attack action; if you make one as part of casting a spell, it happens to be a free action. If it requires an attack roll and you are not making the touch attack as part of the spell [i.e. holding the charge], you *must* use a separate attack action to make the attack. In order to move-touch-move you *must* have spring attack.
Don't want to sound like a high-and-mighty rules lawyer, but there isn't much room for interpretation here. Everyone will run things the way they ultimately see fit, but from what I can tell, this is how the rules work.
I didnt think you could draw ammo AND take a move action other than a single 5 ft. step. I thought drawing ammo or weapons is done IN PLACE of your move action?
Touch Spells in combat
"to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll"Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round
A touch attack is still an attack action; if you make one as part of casting a spell, it happens to be a free action. If it requires an attack roll and you are not making the touch attack as part of the spell [i.e. holding the charge], you *must* use a separate attack action to make the attack. In order to move-touch-move you *must* have spring attack.
ok I am confused now. Does a wizard have to make an attack roll to use a touch spell? In all cases? What bonuses get added to his attack roll...what AC defense bonuses are part of the defenders armor class during the touch attack?
ok I am confused now. Does a wizard have to make an attack roll to use a touch spell? In all cases? What bonuses get added to his attack roll...what AC defense bonuses are part of the defenders armor class during the touch attack?Touch Spells in combat
"to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll"Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round
A touch attack is still an attack action; if you make one as part of casting a spell, it happens to be a free action. If it requires an attack roll and you are not making the touch attack as part of the spell [i.e. holding the charge], you *must* use a separate attack action to make the attack. In order to move-touch-move you *must* have spring attack.
You must make a touch attack which requires an attack roll to use a spell.
You add BAB+Strength modifier. If you have weapon finesse you get to add the dex modifier instead.Touch attacks target the touch AC which includes all bonuses except armor, shield, and natural armor).
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I didnt think you could draw ammo AND take a move action other than a single 5 ft. step. I thought drawing ammo or weapons is done IN PLACE of your move action?
Drawing ammunition is a free action, not a free action. (see ammunition description in equipment chapter and drawing weapon action in combat chapter.)
I didnt think you could draw ammo AND take a move action other than a single 5 ft. step. I thought drawing ammo or weapons is done IN PLACE of your move action?
Drawing ammo is done as a free action as part of the attack. Loading the ammo into the weapon varies by weapon. For bows it is a free action.
Drawing a weapon is a move action, but you are also allowed to to draw a weapon while you are moving as a part of that move action as long as you have a BAB of +1 or higher.
ok I am confused now. Does a wizard have to make an attack roll to use a touch spell? In all cases? What bonuses get added to his attack roll...what AC defense bonuses are part of the defenders armor class during the touch attack?Touch Spells in combat
"to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll"Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round
A touch attack is still an attack action; if you make one as part of casting a spell, it happens to be a free action. If it requires an attack roll and you are not making the touch attack as part of the spell [i.e. holding the charge], you *must* use a separate attack action to make the attack. In order to move-touch-move you *must* have spring attack.
You must make a touch attack which requires an attack roll to use a spell.
You add BAB+Strength modifier. If you have weapon finesse you get to add the dex modifier instead.Touch attacks target the touch AC which includes all bonuses except armor, shield, and natural armor).
A spellcaster makes an attack roll for a Touch Attack which goes against the targets touch AC.
If the target is not an enemy ie you are casting magearmor (or some other beneficial spell on yourself or ally) you are not making an attack so there is no attack roll.
Otherwise as stated above you add any of your appropriate melee bonuses to the attack roll, or range bonuses if it is a range touch attack.
I missed the "in all cases" part. good catch
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@James --> I only included the "holding the charge" bit for completion.
Nixda's post is at the core of what the OP is asking; you have 3 options-
move [base speed]--> cast --> touch
cast --> touch --> move [base speed]
cast --> move [base speed] --> touch
The rules do *not* say that you can -
cast --> move [1/2 speed] --> touch --> move [1/2 speed]
Sorry if I'm reading this from an absolute point of view, but the phraseology in the SRD ["may" instead of "might"] implies a very specific set of options available; it does not list suggestions or possibilities, just Option "A", Option "B", and Option "C."