Why do you think NPC's can't fall? They probably won't because they won't exist until the GM creates them, and the fall will just be background like most other NPC's, but having someone do something bad enough to lost their powers is not impossible. In my Eberron anyone can lose their power which leads us back to the openess issue again. Now if a GM is going to be inconsistent he may need a more concretely written setting to run.
See that is the thing, we are not talking about Your Eberron, but the printed setting. We do have NPC's in more then one official book who do not fallow their faith at all, except in public, who commit acts aginest their faith in the name of greed.
In the official Eberron setting they simply do not fall. So you are punishing players for something they are not punished for in the setting.
I agree it is your right to change the setting as you see fit {I always do so as well} but in the published setting they simply do not work they way you are saying. You can be a CE mass murdering psychopath of a LG god and even if found out and exiled from your church you keep your powers.
No actually we don't know, all we know are specific people who seem to have gotten away with it for now, just like the way Torm's clerics abused their power for a long period of time until the god got a major wakeup call and decided to implement some spot reforms right then and there.
Yes we do, we have seen enough, evil corrupt cleric NPC's to see they never fall. Show me one just one who fell and was stripped of their powers.
Every exsample we have shows they do not fall. Every one, and evil NPC clerics of a good faith who only give lip service to that faith seems to be common in eberron really.
So yeah punish the players for something the NPC's are allowed to do.
Why do you think NPC's can't fall? They probably won't because they won't exist until the GM creates them, and the fall will just be background like most other NPC's, but having someone do something bad enough to lost their powers is not impossible. In my Eberron anyone can lose their power which leads us back to the openess issue again. Now if a GM is going to be inconsistent he may need a more concretely written setting to run.See that is the thing, we are not talking about Your Eberron, but the printed setting. We do have NPC's in more then one official book who do not fallow their faith at all, except in public, who commit acts aginest their faith in the name of greed.
In the official Eberron setting they simply do not fall. So you are punishing players for something they are not punished for in the setting.
I agree it is your right to change the setting as you see fit {I always do so as well} but in the published setting they simply do not work they way you are saying. You can be a CE mass murdering psychopath of a LG god and even if found out and exiled from your church you keep your powers.
The printed setting leaves it open to GM about how to handle deities*, and I can understand why some people don't like more concrete rules, but it does help to cut down on canon lawyering.
*I understand they can get away with the alignment issue, but that does not excuse doing something else a deity may not like.
*I understand they can get away with the alignment issue, but that does not excuse doing something else a deity may not like.
But they in fact do, often Hell one of the speakers for the silver flame was corrupt as all hell enough that his church had to step in. His "god" didn't and it is right there physically.
Gods do not touch eberron the church put you down if they catch you, most never get caught it seems. They do get away with any thing and everything as long as no one who cares catches them.
If they are caught, they do not fall.
You are reading a very different setting then the one I have on my shelf.
*I understand they can get away with the alignment issue, but that does not excuse doing something else a deity may not like.
But they in fact do, often Hell one of the speakers for the silver flame was corrupt as all hell enough that his church had to step in. His "god" didn't and it is right there physically.
Gods do not touch eberron the church put you down if they catch you, most never get caught it seems. They do get away with any thing and everything as long as no one who cares catches them.
If they are caught, they do not fall.
You are reading a very different setting then the one I have on my shelf.
I don't recall that speaker. What book was that in?
I don't recall that speaker. What book was that in?
I think it is buried somewhere in the core book, but might be in one of the source books. Been a while since I been though em.
|
Are you intentionally trying to foster the impression to your players that in this setting Worshiping concepts is better? Because that's the impression that I got from two posts, you use civil and brutal to describe the two cultures instead of urban/developed and rural/agrarian/barbarianAs it is his setting what if he is? In that setting concepts are better { well by the core rules as well) you are not chained to some great being who can cut you off from power on a whim, but indoctrinated to a more orderly and world concept.
Not all worlds use the same rule, some do not allow concept clerics at all, while others only allow them. It makes since that if both are real in a world one or the other will become dominant and in time the other will be driven out. In his worlds the gods lost among the civilized races it seems.
did I in any way say it was a good or bad thing? No I was just asking if that was intentional. Now would I be curious to know if this reflects his personal real world ideology, kinda. Does that mean I'm implying it's a good or bad thing, no. I just wanted to know if it was intentional or just an unintended consequence of word choice.
heh fun tidbit I found looking though faiths of eberron
"The gods of Eberron do not actively involve themselves in the world as gods of other settings do. They are distant—if they exist at all. A commune spell contacts outsiders such as angels, not the gods themselves. Clerics gain their spells from their own faith, not from divine intervention. Pg.7
" The Silver Flame is a real, recent force active within Eberron. In that regard, it is different from other main-stream religions." Pg.60
Also the book pretty much backs me up. They can be defrocked but not fall, they are no longer part of the faith but still have all the power they did before. The silver flame however tends to put such folk to the question so to speak.
Anyhow here we go Melysse Miron Pg.70. Shes slumbering in dreadhold for now. I am pretty sure there is more info somewhere, but I can't recall where.
We also have both the blood of vol which is a concept but treated just like any other god and the deathless faith, also a concept treated just like every other faith.
So the traveler who is rumored to walk the planet is the only one that might have a physical body, but all he does is travel. I can just see th OOTS guys making fun of him if Eberron was not copyrighted.
The silver flame is an active force, and the only one capable of taking powers away.
Miron was not a keeper. She challenged the authority of the keeper, and was eventually locked away. I remember her, but I don't recall seeing her anywhere else.
It is strange how they made a rule on this issue, but left almost everything else open.
The only way to balance the concepts with deity worshipping clerics is to have codes for them. That way it would make sense for both to exist in a setting.
I am disappointed that he officially made a call about this, but not other things people asked about. The destruction of Xendrik and the nature of the invading Quori would have been great flavor. The nature of the "titans" would have been nice also, along with crunch of course.
Now would I be curious to know if this reflects his personal real world ideology, kinda.
Nope. In the real world I'm a Biblical literalist Christian.
The silver flame is an active force, and the only one capable of taking powers away.
That is just it, Faiths of ebrron shows they can't take them away. They can strip rank and boot you out of the faith but that is it. They have no ability to make you fall or strip powers.
They do tend to kill those that go to far from the faith and are found out, but they can't just take power away. They bust you in rank, boot you from the faith, in prison you or outright kill you. That is the options.
No one can ever strip away your cleric powers.
A few other things wraithstrike,
We don't know that the traveller is even real or ever was as any shapeshifter who makes deals could have been "the traveller" I am of the mind myself that he was "played" by different demons, dragons and other things over the ages as was needed.
You are right on the anti-keeper. She did split the church in a civil war type fashion. I know there is more info about this somewhere, I just wish I could recall where.
I am not sure what you mean about The destruction of Xendrik and the nature of the invading Quori. Care to elaborate on that?
The silver flame is an active force, and the only one capable of taking powers away.
That is just it, Faiths of ebrron shows they can't take them away. They can strip rank and boot you out of the faith but that is it. They have no ability to make you fall or strip powers.
They do tend to kill those that go to far from the faith and are found out, but they can't just take power away. They bust you in rank, boot you from the faith, in prison you or outright kill you. That is the options.
No one can ever strip away your cleric powers.
Eberron as written sucks then(at least in that aspect). Those of us arguing for concepts are not arguing for powers without consequences. We were just arguing for powers without committing to a deity since there may not be a deity that I agree with or like for a particular setting.
Time to make houserules for the next Eberron based game I run.