Isn't worshipping concepts more of an Oracle thing?
It is now, but it has been an option for ages. I would like to see the godless priests go, as that role is now filled and has always been pointless to me.
Who said they worship the concepts? You can have faith in something and revere it without worshipping it.
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Thank you all for your thoughts and posts.
From my perusal of the posts, quite a few responses said that they would have a cleric worship a concept for the two domains they can pick.
A few others have brought up character concept, or that they didn’t like the choices the pantheon of that world offered, ( in terms of domains ).
Another poster brought up a good point, that in most campaign worlds, the gods are not indestructible and can be destroyed and die. A concept on the other hand is much more durable.
Again there are allot of good responses out there thank you.
I guess my own opinion is that cleric who worships a “concept” is a bit of an oxymoron to me.
my Rant
I prefer that there is at least some sort of personality or entity on the other end of the conduit of divine power whether it is a god, “mother nature”, the spirits, the ancestors, some octopus headed critter with an unpronounceable name what ever. Personally I find the “ I worship a concept- good or darkness or what ever- to be a bit boring and flavorless.
With a deity and a religion there is lots of room for creativity. Just look at the Faiths of purity books…or the “book of the righteous” by Green Ronin. There is lots of good stuff there.
With a god and a pantheon, there is the potential for childish petty spats (depending on the gods), with a religion there is the potential for politics, both within a church, and with its relation to the temporal powers such as a king or wizards guild etc.
There is also the chance to create religious “dogma” what is orthodox, and unorthodox.
How does the faith fit in to the culture, how do people practice their religion?
This is all background fluff that can be added to and made for a cleric character who worships a god or some sort of entity.
For example A little while ago I posted this question: How can Sarenrae’s faith, the goddess of redemption co exist in a land with slavery, namely Qadira.
I got this very interesting response from James Jacobs
James Jacobs (Creative Director), Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 04:16 PM
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Sarenrae herself, and her church, does not tolerate slavery, but nor do they preach "Kill the slavers!" They would certainly look for non-violent ways to seek a slave's freedom—purchasing the slave and setting the slave free is probably the preferred method.
Now that said, there's a wide range of individual variations among the specific worshipers of Sarenrae—as with ANY religion. There are some worshipers of Sarenrae who would, perhaps, seek to simply comfort slaves if possible, espcially if they see the alternative (living on your own with no support structure in a dangerous city) is more painfula nd dangerous than slavery itself. There's ABSOLUTELY some worshipers of Sarenrae who crusade against slavery and slavers themselves and DO use violence against the slavers.
Now, as for Qadira? It's important to keep two things in mind about Sarenrae's faith being the most widespread faith in Qadira:
1) It's not in charge. The government of Qadira is richer and more powerful than the church of Sarenrae in Qadira, and as a result, the government is the one that gets to say if slaves are legal or not. The church has to either go along with that or rebel, and in Qadira's case, the church has opted to go along with it.
2) The church of Sarenrae in Qadira is NOT the most faithful of all of Sarenrae's churches. In fact, it's one of the most corrupt of her churches, because they've more or less lost sight of the "redeem your enemies" and "peace is better than war." Over the course of many generations, the church of Sarenrae in Qadira has become militarized, basically, and they're a lot more pro-war than they should be—but not SO pro-war that the chruch is in immediate danger of losing all their clerical powers. This church's tolerance of slaves in Qadira is but one of many examples of how the church is straying from Sarenrae's path. It's also why there's a schism building among the church, as a growing number of worshipers are coming to realize that things have somehow gone sour in the faith here. But an outright rebellion would tear the church apart, cause massive unrest in the faith AND in the nation, and could even start a Qadiran civil war—which is exactly the type of thing the true worshiper of Sarenrae DOESN'T want. So the actual honest worshipers of Sarenrae in Qadira are sort of caught in a terrible spot—either stand up for the actual teachings of their goddess and risk tearing their church apart, or stay quiet and risk letting the church stray that one final bit that finally forces Sarenrae to take action against the church.
All of this is set up to give a really interesting political angle to the church, honestly—it'd be super easy to just paint Sarenrae's church as a "can do no wrong" set of do-gooders, but this is, in my opinion, a far more interesting and realistic portrayal of the corruption of power. And it's got built into it the seeds of a really interesting-sounding campaign!
Now I don’t think you can have such a rich canvas to paint on if you have a character who simply worships a concept.
But again this is mearly my opinion. Thank you everyone for sharing your ideas with me. I appreciate what you have had to say and there were quite a few things I hadn’t considered before, such as concepts outlasting deities.
Again thank you.
Actually in a world of magic, I can see clerics of *concept* making sense.
Think of certain comic book characters, and re-image them as clerics. Ghost Rider as a cleric of 'vengance' Cap as a cleric of 'Freedom' or 'America' Batman as a cleric of 'Justice'.
Also from Dr. Who 'Curse of Fenric' The one Russian soldier holds of the Haemovours with his faith in the Rodina. Would giving him cleric spells be so far out of order in a mystical world?
Though it does lead to an interesting situation. A Cleric of *deity* can lose their spells/powers by offending their deity. How does a cleric of *concept* handle such a crisis. If Cap is a cleric of 'America' How does he recover when he feels America's failed its ideals? If the Russian in Dr. Who is confronted with the mass graves and atrocities of Communist Russia, how does he recover that faith?
I don't think any of those characters come even close to cleric. Ghost Rider started out as being cursed, with his power coming directly from the Devil. Not a Marvel comics Devil stand-in like Mephisto, THE ONE AND ONLY DEVIL. The Vengeance thing developed over a looong period of time. He strikes me more as some kind of demon than a typical player class. Maybe he'd be a weird undead anti-cavalier. Or maybe just a high-level Hellknight with tailor-made magic weapons. Who's race is "Burning Skeleton". If you HAD to make Ghost Rider something divine, the Penance Stare comes more in line with the stern gaze of an Inquisitor.
Captain America is a high-level fighter with enormous physical stats. If he had to be something divine/magical, it would definitely be a Paladin. He even has a shield (which he's extremely proficient in) and has chain mail like a knight.
Batman is in no way a cleric. I'd call him a high level Rogue (Investigator archetype) with levels in Monk and maybe fighter (though non-lethal) and possibly alchemist. And no dump stats.
Worshipping a concept makes sense in non-Golarian games. In a homebrew world it makes sense to allow the players to select two domains that fit whatever god they want to worship.
In the first game I ever played, we had a cleric of Gozer the Gozarian from Ghostbusters. (Yes it was an evil game). Since Gozer obviously isn't a set god, allowing the player to grab two domains that make sense is a good way to handle that sort of situation.
A player trying to loop hole his way into evil is not what I meant. I am speaking of denial based on arbitrary GM decisions. Your example was not arbitrary.
Of course Robb Smith did not exactly say what he meant by valid either.
I can't define "valid" in my statement, because it's not up to me what to decide what a valid reason is for every GM on the planet.
I will offer myself for an example, not for what is right or wrong. I would consider a "valid" reason to be "my faith doesn't allow it." or "I feel uncomfortable making a character who worships a god of any kind." Amongst reasons I would consider "Invalid" are "I don't like the diety choices", "I want <x> domain and <y> domain, and no diety offers both", etc.
If it up to the GM to decide if they wish to allow players to make Clerics of a "concept" rather than a diety, and it is presented as an option that requires DM approval/collaboration. I still hold by that this is a holdover due to concerns over religion. In this regard, the hobby has been forever scarred by Patricia Pulling and the witchhunt of the 80's, and scars never fully heal.
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Sorry I wasn't clear.
I'm saying that the characters are devoted to a 'concept' Vengenance, America, Justice, etc. Putting those characters in a D&D setting, they could be examples of someone devoted to a concept enough to be a cleric.
I didn't mean to imply that they were clerics in their current incarnations.
Because gods can and will die. Remember the poor clerics of Maanzecorian when Orcus did him off? whatever becomes of clerics if their Big Guy drifts on the astral? They loose their cleric abilities, unless they jump ship. On the other hand not even the Lady of Pain can kill the concept of Valor or Disease, for example.
While I'm certainly no expert on Planescape, I've got a strong memory of some concept like "belief is reality", that if belief in something is strong enough, that it's real. I think it COULD be possible for the Lady to kill valor or disease, though maybe not easy, through getting people to unbelieve those things (or through believing their bodies can't be harmed by things such as diseases).
Maybe to cater to secular people who feel uncomfortable with playing a character that worships any god at all?This was my first reaction, and I think it makes some kind of weird sense from a marketing viewpoint. Like, "Let's let people who consider themselves spiritual but not religious play like characters."
I have to point out a few things, though. As an atheist, I have no real desire (at the moment) to play any kind of cleric. I'm perfectly fine with having my anti-deist, semi-marxist/anarchist characters be wizards and rogues and whatnot. I'm having a hard time picturing the atheist player who wants his character to be atheist but feels left out if he/she can't play a cleric. I'm currently running a 4e game with a player who wanted to play an invoker that "worships" the " of knowledge". It seemed weird (like an example of "what's wrong with 4e" weird) until he settled on Ioun, the god of knowledge, as a deity. With no prodding from me, I might add.
Also, even if you're secular and feel, as I do, that the whole "deity" thing is kind of silly (even though I play elves that live underground and wizards that shoot fireballs from their hands), there's nothing to prevent other people in your group from playing devoted clerics.
Seems more like if you have the burning desire to play a cleric, you should suspend whatever disbelief you have and just fake it (you know, roleplay). It's called fantasy, after all. I have no problem whatsoever with a fighter, rogue, wizard, bard, etc. not having a deity and "worshipping" an ideal. What makes me scratch my head is the notion of the "concept" granting that person magical powers. The deity should go with the territory, just like Paladins have to be Lawful Good.
I'm an atheist too, but I don't have a problem with divine spell casters, think about it, it's a fictional world, with fictional deities, it's make believe, for you and your group's amusement, when I play pathfinder, I often drop my suspension of disbelieve (unless there is a very good reason to apply real world logic into a fantasy game).
There are some duality options you can play with via Domains without simply grabbing the two best choices for your build. For example, you could play a Cleric of fire of ice, light and dark, life and death, all things rendered impossible by strict monotheism but with a definite yin-yang feel. In the same way that a Druid reveres "nature" you can find peace between the necessary clashing of two concepts. Some things, like good and evil or law and chaos might take some twisting to really justify and at most I'd think you'd have to be neutral to pull it off.
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I sort of skimmed this discussion so excuse me if this doesn't flow into it.
For the purposes of the game, it provides players with options should they find they don't like any of the gods available. Also, sometimes the concept of the character could restrict them from picking one of the main gods.
For purposes of my own, I give you a theological rant.
Faith is a principal of action and power. Now, I am aware that worship and faith are two different things, but they do go hand in hand. You can't truly worship something you do not have faith in. I know some people try to worship without faith, but we are talking about clerics, not people who only visit a church on holidays.
If someone were to find they did not have faith in any of the deities, they would be denying themselves the ability to worship them. However, if one of these doubters were to find they had an unusual amount of faith in a concept like valor, healing, or darkness then they would find that faith fueling them if they were clerics. This would be like having faith in yourself and that you can do great things. If you really believe that and act on that belief with all your might, you will do great things. Likewise, it is possible that you can believe in a concept, and act with great faith to follow that concept, and gain great power from the result of that faith.
Of course, this raises further theological issues. How is it that someone very religious in their own right, but not truly worshiping a god, have the power to cast divine spells? Where does that ability come from?
One possibility is that some being out there grants the power despite the lack of worship. For example, Iomedae might grant powers to righteous warrior priests even if they don't worship her. This would conflict with the more evil and selfish deities though. Why would someone like Asmodeus give power to those who refuse to worship him?
A second possibility is that power is not actually granted by the gods. The energy that powers divine spells is the faith of the believer. They believe they can perform the spells (miracles) and in setting out to do them their active faith brings out the energy needed for the desired result. But the problem with this is that it would make the gods pointless to worship.
I could go on forever with possibilities. I doubt there is a real "right" answer here.
Of course, this is a fantasy game. Such theological discussion and philosophical debate would only confuse us further as we try to understand in game reasoning for rules.
Worshipping a concept makes sense in non-Golarian games. In a homebrew world it makes sense to allow the players to select two domains that fit whatever god they want to worship.
In the first game I ever played, we had a cleric of Gozer the Gozarian from Ghostbusters. (Yes it was an evil game). Since Gozer obviously isn't a set god, allowing the player to grab two domains that make sense is a good way to handle that sort of situation.
I fail to see the logic that makes it any more sensible to take two domains in a homebrew than it does in Golarion. Are you saying that the player should just make up whatever god he wants the GM has to fit it into the world? Or that homebrew's are more logical for people to not worship gods than Golarion?
The reasons for using 'choose domains' in a homebrew are exactly the same ones as in Golarion.
Unless you meant it's easier on the GM to just allow the cleric to pick domains and make up a god and have nothing else in the world really affected by the made up god. I suppose if a GM didn't want to be bothered that could be easier, but that whole concept makes my teeth hurt (The idea of a GM not being able to be bothered to figure out the gods of his homebrew world that is).
Fall From Grace - awesome cleric of a concept.
I'm not sure she/it was a cleric of anything. I haven't played Planescape: Torment recently, but did she actually preach anything?
Sorry I wasn't clear.
I'm saying that the characters are devoted to a 'concept' Vengenance, America, Justice, etc. Putting those characters in a D&D setting, they could be examples of someone devoted to a concept enough to be a cleric.
I didn't mean to imply that they were clerics in their current incarnations.
I understand, but what I'm saying is that bent devoted to those
concepts shouldn't translate into those concepts granting those characters magicpowers.
About the closest thing to a concept cleric in Marvel I can think of is Thanos, who worshipped Death (a semi-corporal deity int the Marvel universe). In DC I can think of the multicolored Lanterns, who are physically powered by Willpower, Fear, Love, etc.
Another remaining that I find kind of silly, btw.
I have no problem with suspending my disbelief in order to play with cleric/ priest characters, btw. To me this whole debate boils down to "where does the power come from?" clerics get power their gods, mages get their power by manipulating elemental forces in the world, Druids get it from the natural energy of the world (like The Force) and fighters/ rogues get it from their muscles. Where does this belief in a concept draw its power? If it comes from inside them,'you're really talking about psionics.
A druid is a divine caster as much of a cleric. He reveres and worships nature, though he is not necessarily bound to follow Gozreh, Mielliki or Obad-hai. He can simply be an adept of the Green Faith, in itself a concept, and way of life.
Whether or not a deity provides the Green Faith druid with powers, or a third party does, he gets power in the end, and he worships a concept.
Why wouldn't a cleric be able to follow a spiritual path the same way a druid does? With all the outer planes of elements and alignments and cosmic sources of power, I can't believe a cleric can't draw powers from those as part of his edicts.
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Regarding the favored weapon thingy... I think that clerics of established deities follow mentors of the same faith, and are brought into some sort of clerical training, which would give them proficiency with the sacred(and often symbolic) weapon of their deity. A cleric of a concept wouldn't necessarily get to train this way.
Then again, is it really gamebreaking to allow a chosen proficiency? It gives options for creativity. Let's not talk about munchkinism, there's already the greatsword and the falchion in the available favored weapons.
Fall From Grace - awesome cleric of a concept.I'm not sure she/it was a cleric of anything. I haven't played Planescape: Torment recently, but did she actually preach anything?
Sensation. To fullfil her duty, she ran the Brothel for Slating Intelectual Lusts. Not only was she a cleric, but she had followers to continue her teachings.
Sensation. To fullfil her duty, she ran the Brothel for Slating Intelectual Lusts. Not only was she a cleric, but she had followers to continue her teachings.Fall From Grace - awesome cleric of a concept.I'm not sure she/it was a cleric of anything. I haven't played Planescape: Torment recently, but did she actually preach anything?
I thought it was just something she/it wanted to do, maybe a bit of reconciliation to what she/it was. FFG was called a priestess, but that needn't mean she was one, effectively.
Then again, Planescape is the kind of place where strong belief in anything could give you powers. It's just I don't remember where she/it was doing any preaching or other religious ceremonies.
Sensation. To fullfil her duty, she ran the Brothel for Slating Intelectual Lusts. Not only was she a cleric, but she had followers to continue her teachings.Fall From Grace - awesome cleric of a concept.I'm not sure she/it was a cleric of anything. I haven't played Planescape: Torment recently, but did she actually preach anything?I thought it was just something she/it wanted to do, maybe a bit of reconciliation to what she/it was. FFG was called a priestess, but that needn't mean she was one, effectively.
Then again, Planescape is the kind of place where strong belief in anything could give you powers. It's just I don't remember where she/it was doing any preaching or other religious ceremonies.
Why does she have to preach anything, or perform religious ceremonies to be a cleric? She taught, she learned, she observed, and that was her religion - to experience and help others experience. Not every cleric has to go out preaching the word and their beliefs.
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Thank you all for your thoughts and posts.
From my perusal of the posts, quite a few responses said that they would have a cleric worship a concept for the two domains they can pick.
A few others have brought up character concept, or that they didn’t like the choices the pantheon of that world offered, ( in terms of domains ).
Another poster brought up a good point, that in most campaign worlds, the gods are not indestructible and can be destroyed and die. A concept on the other hand is much more durable.
Again there are allot of good responses out there thank you.
I guess my own opinion is that cleric who worships a “concept” is a bit of an oxymoron to me.
my Rant
** spoiler omitted **...
If you have players who wish to play clerics who worship a concept, then perhaps you should ask them to provide a rough idea of why the concept deserves veneration. Once you have this rough idea, as GM, you could work to produce narrative and choices that force the cleric to engage and continually define and, maybe, redefine his concept.
For example, Darkness. Is Darkness good or bad? One player might take the easy path of saying "it's both." Great. Make the cleric face situations where such dualism is confronted by people who don't believe in that middle path. For people in a given city, darkness represents crime and death and the mere suggestion that the darkness is good is an insult to them. Or, better yet, another cleric who also worships the same concept but differently.
While the alignment system can be restrictive at times, it serves as a useful concept - degrees in a concept. How much Good is good? What degree of Good is good? What defines Good?
Any spats and fights between religions can also occur between worshipers of concepts. If you have one cleric who believes in a concept, chance are there are others. Arguably, your concept cleric could, after his death, become the basis of a religion. It's unclear to me if Cayden Cailean worshipped anyone before he became a God and gained followers and a portfolio of domains.
In _Faiths of Purity_, there is a specific text block devoted to how the faiths of purity relate to each other. As the gods represent the embodiment of concepts, the clashes between gods can be played out by clashes between clerics of concepts and clerics of gods.
Simple, because sometimes there isn't a deity that jives well with your character concept and making up a deity just for your character might feel disingenuous (though L. Ron Hubbard did it).
I thought I'd chime in a bit. I personally like the fact that you can choose your own spiritual path in 3.x/Pathfinder as far a clerics, paladins, or anything else goes. And for good reason too!
Firstly, forcing a specific deity vastly limits roleplaying. You might have a great concept for your character, but the game world you're in doesn't have a deity that you like or meshes with your character. This is a pretty big reason, I think.
Likewise, if you require deities, then you also lose the option for small religious cults (unless deities pop up on demand, in which case, why are you complaining?). You can't have fringe religions, because without backing of a deity, then they wouldn't be a religion at all. People could just see that they had no divine magic, and see they were false. Likewise, you can't pretend to be a spiritual leader with arcane magic or psionics for very long (at least in any mainstream campaign setting) because they all have certain traits that make it obvious to the people in these worlds.
Also, divine spells don't have to come from deities. That's factual. You can see it in the books. Adepts have divine magic, but don't even have to choose deities or domains, for example. Many outsiders have divine magic, which apparently comes from themselves, for example. Additionally, Paladins are not deity driven (never have been*) but instead focused on the greater forces of good and evil.
(*: I know paladins were limited by their deities in previous editions, but the fact is that Paladins were Lawful Good, which means that they were more closely tied to alignment than religion, as otherwise you'd have paladins of every alignment, matching their deities.)
What's so hard about believing that someone's own spiritual power was the force behind their power? Perhaps it is their soul that powers their magic, and as they themselves increase in power, so too does their magic. This works incredibly well for D&D/PF, as you don't see level 1 clerics calling on miracles, but a 7th level cleric can bring someone back from the dead. Also, I'd love to see someone argue (with a strait face) that the 7th level cleric is more pious and worthy of his deity's attention because he slew 20 orcs and a few ogres, while the 1st level cleric has spent all his time to teaching children the religious doctrines.
It makes pantheons easier to do. It makes dealing with more spiritually focused (as opposed to deity focused) faiths such as Buddhism, Shamanism, Taoism/Daoism, and Hinduism easier to emulate or use as a basis for a fictional religion in your campaign world. It's also less insulting to suggest that you must have a deity in order to follow a spiritual tradition (seriously, think about that for a moment - you're effectively saying you have to have a god or gods to have religious power).
It also allows players to create and develop their own characters, rather than some nameless pawn of a paragraph of text. Even in settings like the Forgotten Realms where you have to have a deity, most of the deities are not very fleshed out in the actual books (the FRCS has a lot of deities in the book, with a short paragraph of info for each). Instead, you could have someone who is more saintly.
It creates interest and intrigue, because religions have to promote the agendas of their gods, because people could turn away from them. This would instantly create the kind of adventure-driving conflicts such as a powerful church trying to crush an uprising of a new fringe religion on the borders of the kingdom (probably quietly), smear campaigns, and religious conflict (which is bad in real life, but interesting in games) that can drive campaigns and motivations for characters.
It makes fringe cults that worship unusual things possible. For example, if you want to have a small cult that reveres a powerful hydra as some sort of divine being, but the cult leader is a 6th level cleric with the water and darkness domains; who has attracted the rest of the followers through his words and magics.
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From a mechanical perspective, this a good thing. It dodges the BSery that is the "no god, no religion" subtexts that I mentioned before, and it also makes certain critics happier. While, as a Christian, I have no problem with fictitious characters with fictitious faiths, I have met people who love playing D&D but don't like choosing deities, so I'm not going to force them just because they want to play the party healer.
Additionally, who the heck cares if you can choose your domains and/or focus? It's not like a free martial weapon and a few domain powers are going to screw anything up. Heck, the absolute nastiest combination I can think of is animal/death domain to make some sort of doom-knight (you get an animal companion horse, the ability to animate undead minions, maybe glaive/greatsword/maul proficiency), and it's not that bad. Seriously, if someone picking 2 unusual domains is throwing a monkey wrench into your game, you have a LOT more problems coming your way ("What do you mean your monkey has Use Magic Device?" - "What do you mean that you purchased a wand of cure light wounds?" - "You want to do what with your portable hole?" - "Wait, you're casting animate dead on the dragon's corpse?").
Just sayin'/askin'. I'm gonna go back to reading the threads now. ☺
I wouldn't go as far as to say that the gods in Eberron aren't real. (There definitely is SOMETHING behind the Silver Flame after all), it's more that they are removed from the concerns of mortals and that they don't directly supervise thier clergy. That's why a cleric of the Silver Flame can go completely off the rails alignment wise and still retain his powers.
The silver flame is not a god, it is the souls of most of the Couatl race, bound holding back some great demon, a demon we also know somethings whispers both to the speaker and to clerics who worship the flame.
Faith alone powers clerics, sometimes that faith is in a mythic god, sometimes its and idea and sometimes its a ball of energy left over from the souls of a mostly dead race.
Another reason for a cleric drawing magic from a concept instead of a god would be the idea that their magic isn't "theirs". It's just borrowed from a powerful entity that lives on the planes. If that god doesn't like what they've done or gets killed or changes alignment--poof, no clerical magic.
A concept worshiping cleric doesn't need to worry about that--its magic is as much "theirs" as it is for a arcane casting class.
I think it's the opposite. A man with divine power is playing at being a god, drawing his power from the same source. Clerics normally have access to the wisdom and protection of their patron, but a cleric of a concept has no such thing and can be victimized by any god.
ANY deity can decide to block a cleric of concepts if they are aware of them and they are a favorite target of divine beings, angels and demons.
I think they have to be very careful and respect all taboos.
Is there a quote for that?
Why does she have to preach anything, or perform religious ceremonies to be a cleric? She taught, she learned, she observed, and that was her religion - to experience and help others experience. Not every cleric has to go out preaching the word and their beliefs.
This is how I understand being a cleric. Almost everyone has faith in something, and things s/he/it believes in. Clerics by definition (as in, members of the clergy) not just have a faith - they exemplify and spread it. It is basically what I think the world means. A clerics isn't just a follower of a faith, but a leader of that faith. This is why imo FFG would more likely be an ardent than a cleric, and why ardents are better for the idea of "champion/cleric of a concept" - they believe in something so hard that they can alter reality even if that thing is simply a concept with no further power of its own.
a clerics power comes from thier devotion to thier ideals, not from thier god themselves.
the assumption it comes from thier god is a common misconception in my opinion.
it also explains why clerics can choose to venerate concepts.
also with the idea of worshipping concepts, we can have cults, and other religions, like the various religions of the world that worship spirits, or philosophy, or other highly powerful entities.
there should be other concepts than just zealous holy templar.
what would you prefer?
Option A
that the player just devote thier cleric to the ideals of the katana, choose a desired alignment, and mix and match domains accordingly with the katana as thier favored weapon?
Option B
that the player spend hours pouring through splatbooks to find some obscure god who, just happens to conveniently accomodate the desired alignment, favor the katana, and accomodate the desired domains?
Option C
or that the player hijack a bit of your control to create a homebrewed god who just happens to conveniently accomodate thier character's taste?
i like the option A best. saves a whole lot of time on both sides.
a clerics power comes from thier devotion to thier ideals, not from thier god themselves.
the assumption it comes from thier god is a common misconception in my opinion.
This is purely setting dependent really. In some settings the power clearly comes from Gods and you can not worship just concepts. In others ya can do both or the gods are not real just concepts themselves.
All in the setting.
a clerics power comes from thier devotion to thier ideals, not from thier god themselves.
the assumption it comes from thier god is a common misconception in my opinion.
it also explains why clerics can choose to venerate concepts.
As already said, that depends on the setting. The premise of divine magic, however, is heavily slanted towards the idea of something or someone - the "divine" giving you power to use, unlike arcane magic where you are somehow able to harness that power on your own (or psionics, where it is somehow your power). Overall, iirc in most setting power comes from gods who are giving it in return for service, and able to terminate the relationship if they want. I generally prefer this interpretation because it makes divine power actually different in concept than the rest, and leave power that is inherently yours to sorcerers or psions - or, as the case may be, ardents.
a clerics power comes from thier devotion to thier ideals, not from thier god themselves.
the assumption it comes from thier god is a common misconception in my opinion.
This is purely setting dependent really. In some settings the power clearly comes from Gods and you can not worship just concepts. In others ya can do both or the gods are not real just concepts themselves.
All in the setting.
Shuriken makes a good point either way. It's definitely the best way to go in terms of gameplay. Because choice A, as presented by Neko, would be the ideal and (should) likely cause the least amount of animosity between players and GMs (I'm not much for player vs GM play).
I think the default assumption is good. If you absolutely have to have it so that you gotta have a deity to have divine power (like with the Forgotten Realms, for example) then that should be a campaign specific thing and not inherent to the mechanics of the game (just like it explains key differences between the standard and FR campaigns).
On a side note, even in the Forgotten Realms, a lot of the deities were mortals, and mortals are apparently capable of becoming powerful enough that they can rival deities or at least hob-nob with them; so one has to wonder what the problem is (at least I do).
Eh to each his own, Gods are not just really powerful mortal. I do not Gm games where you can just worship the sword or the color green and gain power like a cleric. A god like being grants you that power or you do not have it.
Or like eberron gods are not real at all. Things like logic get in the way of me GMing worlds where both gods grant power and you can gain power gods can not take away just because you worship your self or the color blue. In such settings faith powers you not a being of some type.
I do not run type A games nor type B as I give a very small list of books you can use.
but you are not worshipping the katana itself. you are worshipping the ideals of the way of the katana. this could very much easily be a variant of the Bushido code. your 'cleric' could be a samurai who developed odd mystic powers after his years of devotion to the way of the Katana, following a variant of the bushido code, or how a warrior should live. thier domains could easily be darkness, to represent that one must empty thier mind of all doubts in combat (think void) and war, to represent thier life as a warrior. his power comes from no god, it comes from his years of devotion to the ways, ideals, and life of the Katana. though he did develop his own powers from these devotions and may as well be a cleric in all mechanical respects.
the way of the Katana and the way of the Samurai could easily be interpreted as one and the same.
Yeah yeah you worship the idea of the color green not the color green itself.
As i said to each his own I would never allow it as it makes no sense in world were Gods are real.
Eh to each his own, Gods are not just really powerful mortal. I do not Gm games where you can just worship the sword or the color green and gain power like a cleric. A god like being grants you that power or you do not have it.
Don't be ridiculous berk - the Powers are just regular bashers who've moved on further down the line to get closer to the Source. Admittingly it ain't entirely like the Athar claim it is - those cutters'll tell you there's nothing special about the Powers at all - but at the end of the day they come from the same stuff you and I do.
Hey, I think Gods are real in this world, but you don't see me saying Buddhism isn't legit. >.>
Also, it'd be cool if you didn't speak to Neko in such a condescending manner. What Neko was suggesting was a spiritual philosophy based on the tenets of Bushido (which is an interesting manual to life, I might add), not the color green.
Also, no, you don't need gods for divine magic. By default, Druids do not need gods, nor do Adepts. Unless you wanna say Nature is a god, but last I checked it wasn't (and it seems druidism has its own faith rules, since they forsake metal armors even though their clerical counterparts do not).
Likewise, it makes tons of sense in worlds where gods are real. In the Forgotten Realms, three mortals ascended to become the god of War, Death, and Murder and they did it by fighting their way to the god who governed those portfolios, with the intention of killing him, but he gave them his godhood willingly (apparently FR gods can pass the baton) and went on vacation.
Also, countless real-life religions suggest humanity has access to divine powers. For example, Christianity (and Judaism) says people were created in the image of God, and (in Christian theology) Jesus said that people could preform miracles (his Disciples supposedly could even perform the miracles he did, as noted by him "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." MATTHEW 10:8 NKJ).
I really don't think that in a fictional game like D&D/Pathfinder, where a wizard can summon an angel into his living room to have a cup of tea with, that mortals can shape magic with their spiritual power.
Likewise, what do you do about more spirit based religions in your campaign worlds? Do you simply lack things like shamans?
Only if ya use planescape as your setting :)
Really at the end of the day I have to boggle at anyone who's adamantly against having a sense of mystery in their setting. I mean shoot, a person who has divine magic but uses it differently from much of the rest of the world? Where you see "LOGICAL PARADOX" I see "Incredible gold mine of narrative opportunity!"
Hey, I think Gods are real in this world, but you don't see me saying Buddhism isn't legit. >.>
Nor do I However as neither have cleric classes that cast spells its kinda a non issue.
Also, it'd be cool if you didn't speak to Neko in such a condescending manner. What Neko was suggesting was a spiritual philosophy based on the tenets of Bushido (which is an interesting manual to life, I might add), not the color green.
First off I did not speak condescending manner to anyone. And such philosophy are fine but they do not grant you the same power a divine being would. And no its not that much diff then belief the color green is the base of all life. You just think one is crackpot but under the idea that faith and belief in Bushido makes ya a cleric so the same belief and faith that green is the beginning of all life does the same.
Also, no, you don't need gods for divine magic.
The topic is not divine magic but the cleric class powered by ideas not gods.
Likewise, it makes tons of sense in worlds where gods are real. In the Forgotten Realms, three mortals ascended to become the god of War, Death, and Murder and they did it by fighting their way to the god who governed those portfolios, with the intention of killing him, but he gave them his godhood willingly (apparently FR gods can pass the baton) and went on vacation.
No it does not in FR Gods are powered by faith evil gods would hunt down upstarts trying to ascend to godhood by self faith and the crusades to whip out your corruption would be huge. the same the godless end badly upon death. Besides the fact you MUSt have a god in FR
Also, countless real-life religions suggest humanity has access to divine powers. For example, Christianity (and Judaism) says people were created in the image of God, and (in Christian theology) Jesus said that people could preform miracles (his Disciples supposedly could even perform the miracles he did, as noted by him "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." MATTHEW 10:8 NKJ).
Again point to the one with a real spell casting cleric, also ya know evein with spells to back them up wars have been fault over "those people" wrong teaching and heresy.
Likewise, what do you do about more spirit based religions in your campaign worlds? Do you simply lack things like shamans?
Once more this is solely about the cleric class, and shamans would gin power from something anyhow.
Really at the end of the day I have to boggle at anyone who's adamantly against having a sense of mystery in their setting. I mean shoot, a person who has divine magic but uses it differently from much of the rest of the world? Where you see "LOGICAL PARADOX" I see "Incredible gold mine of narrative opportunity!"
To each his owns for me it is simple clerics need a god or do not. Not both.
you can have both the God worshipping cleric and the Concept venerating cleric in the same world.
there are many myths about humans ascending to the realm of the divine.
why can't a 'samurai' gain divine powers from his faith and devotion to the tenets of the bushido code?
i know, the idea of worshipping the color 'green' as the source of all life sounds ridiculous, but i'm sure Ashiel (or anyone else on these boards who wishes to do so) can turn it into a working concept.
you can have both the God worshipping cleric and the Concept venerating cleric in the same world.
there are many myths about humans ascending to the realm of the divine.
why can't a 'samurai' gain divine powers from his faith and devotion to the tenets of the bushido code?
i know, the idea of worshipping the color 'green' as the source of all life sounds ridiculous, but i'm sure Ashiel (or anyone else on these boards who wishes to do so) can turn it into a working concept.
I do not think you can without endless conflict between the two.
Also a human ascending pretty much becomes a god to his worshipers an d is not a concept. I have no issue with your devote samurai but he would not be of the cleric class.