Bare in mind, I have yet to actually run this (or HH) adventure.
HOWEVER, just reading through the Trial, I have noticed that the whole adventure is incredibly low on treasure. This is especially true if you take into consideration that the characters should conclude this adventure at approx. 7th level. Aside from many mundane household curiosities found towards the end of the adventure (curiosities that are bound to weigh a lot and incredibly hard to find a buyer for), the adventure is missing some well placed treasure.
Based on this, I have been thinking of placing additional treasure throughout the path.
(Including possibly some items near the manticore nest, ghast hole, and chymic works. I have also contemplated placing valuable gems as eyes for some of the constructed creatures.)
Am I one of the few who have noticed this? About how much do you think the Trial is short?
Im just playing it, but it does seem like to get a load of stuff "handed" to you in the Harrowstone portion of the adventure, and then there is the payoff of platinum at the beginning of part 2, so maybe the lack of hand outs in part 2 is due to the fact that you get a decent influx of cash, and sellable items from occurrences in part 1 and the beginning of part 2?
Do the math from part 1 and part 2, add everything up and see if they actually come up short, or it just 'seems' like it?
I think at the point we are in at harrowstone, we are probably ahead of the power curve, but we don't have a single magic weapon yet. If it werent for my judgements, I think we would have died already.
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Do the math from part 1 and part 2, add everything up and see if they actually come up short, or it just 'seems' like it?
This, I think this was to offset the first adventure going 'over budget'. If you are running the trial without the haunting, they'll be a little under, or if you penalize them on prices for selling the big clunky things. They're in a large enough city that they can find a shop willing to buy things at half retail, I wouldn't penalize them any more unless they are trying to move them quick.
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First, let's create the integral 4 characters.
Fighter MacBadfighter, half-orc male fighter.
Ima Goodperson, human female cleric.
Real Ultimatepower, human male wizard.
Iwishi Wazzareelclass, gnome female rogue.
GOLD! and LOOT THAT SELLS FOR GOLD!
50
2000
104
500
40
100
35
1265
300
120
dozen masterwork shurikens (?!)
4 pairs of mw chainmail (300gp)
5 pairs of mw studded leather (375gp)
mw punching dagger (150gp)
3 mw heavy maces (450gp)
3 mw longswords (450gp)
total
6181 / 4 = 1545 per PC
Utility Belt Pile
12 silver arrows
2 fully stocked healers kits
3 vials of antitoxin
2 vials of antiplague
3 doses of bloodblock
3 doses of smelling salts
2 vials of soothe syrup
4 sun rods
11 flasks of holy water
10 +1 arrows
10 +1 crossbow bolts
120 crossbow bolts
five +1 ghost touch arrows
two +1 undead bane arrows
9 potions of cure light wounds
5 potions of lesser restoration
scroll of lesser restoration
wand of cure light wounds (15 charges)
wand of lesser restoration (12 charges)
2 potions remove disease
8 potions cure moderate wounds
scroll of detect undead
2 scrolls of hide from undead
scroll of protection from evil
brass spirit planchette
6 haunt siphons
Seriously, wow. This is a huge amount of utility gear. Compare to other APs like Serpent's Skull or Council of Thieves, and you'd be lucky to even find rope.
fighter
+1 handaxe (2300gp)
+1 keen longsword (8300gp)
mw silver war razor (300gp)
mw longsword (300gp)
mw chainmail (150gp)
rogue
mw punching dagger (300gp)
+1 heavy mace (2300gp)
mw studded leather (150gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
rope of climbing (2000gp)
wizard
a ton of free spells (1265gp worth)
masterwork flute (300gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
ring of protection +1 (2000gp)
rod of ectoplasmic metamagic (3000gp)
cleric
smith's hammer (55gp)
stone of alarm (2700gp)
masterwork chainmail (150gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
mw heavy mace (300gp)
wand of hold person (11 charges) (990gp)
So, you have each PC with 1545gp.
The lowest is Ima Goodperson with 6040gp.
Then, Real Ultimatepower with 6410gp.
Iwishi Wazzareelclass comes in second with 6790gp.
Finally, Fighter MacBadfighter rocks in with 11,350gp.
Level 4: 6000gp
Level 5: 10,500gp.
Add in utility belt stuff and the PCs are right on target, if not over-treasured, for where they should be-- everyone but the lucky jerk who gets the +1 keen longsword, who is a level ahead. Most of them will buy +1 armor with their gold.
I'll do trial in a moment.
First, let's create the integral 4 characters.
Fighter MacBadfighter, half-orc male fighter.
Ima Goodperson, human female cleric.
Real Ultimatepower, human male wizard.
Iwishi Wazzareelclass, gnome female rogue.
GOLD! and LOOT THAT SELLS FOR GOLD!
2000
100
300
30
332
15
85
100
750
200
1200
500
900
175
200
100
208
225
34
3000
"an iron bracelet with silver filigree work depicting a moon eating an owl worth 75 gp."
mw punching dagger (150gp)
thieves tools (15gp)
mw handaxe (150gp)
3 mw throwing axes (450gp)
mw shortsword (150gp)
mw heavy mace (150gp)
2 alchemist's labs (200gp)
Subotal
11794 / 4 = 2948
*It is at this point the PCs begin to rob the castle.
500
500
200
450
50
300
90
120
1200
300
100
150
20
50
400
600
800
2000
3000
2000
10 noble's outfits (750gp)
royal outfit (200gp)
figurines of wondrous power (ivory goats) (10,500gp)
Subtotal
24,280 / 4 = 6070
Total
9018
Utility Belt Pile
12 silver crossbow bolts
potion of fox's cunning
oil of keen edge
package of bodybalm
wand of ghost sound (22 charges)
12 vials of alchemist's fire
12 vials of liquid ice
10 smoke pellets
10 smokesticks
6 bottles of bleach
scroll of bull's strength
scroll of ice storm
scroll of phantom steed
14 vials of acid
9 vials of antitoxin
2 dusts of tracelessness
potion of bull's strength
potion of invisibility
12 vials of nushadir
5 tanglefoot bags
3 thunderstones
3 packets of flash powder
5 pots of alchemical grease
3 potions of cure light wounds
2 potions of spiderclimb
potion of water breathing
potion of displacement
potion of gaseous form
potion of nondetection
wand of charm monster (44 charges)
disguise kit
wand of gentle repose (31 charges)
Okay, seriously, I'm done with writing tiny alchemical supplies down. I stopped on page 35.
*It is at this point the PCs begin to rob the castle.
wand of speak with dead (31 charges)
fighter
+1 handaxe (2300gp)
+1 keen longsword (8300gp)
mw silver war razor (300gp)
mw longsword (300gp)
mw chainmail (150gp)
ring of the ram (8600gp)*
rogue
+1 humanoid (shapechanger) bane dagger (8300gp)
+1 heavy mace (2300gp)
mw studded leather (150gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
rope of climbing (2000gp)
spyglass (1000gp)
wizard
a ton of free spells (1265gp worth)
masterwork flute (300gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
ring of protection +1 (2000gp)
rod of ectoplasmic metamagic (3000gp)
wand of acid arrow (21 charges) (1890gp)
cleric
smith's hammer (55gp)
stone of alarm (2700gp)
masterwork chainmail (150gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
mw heavy mace (300gp)
rod of flame extinguishing (15000gp)*
wand of hold person (11 charges) (990gp)
Shared
cleric + wizard - staff of swarming insects (22,800gp)
Assume they both share it and use it for now, making the item add in half of it's cost to their WBL.
Level 7 - 23,500gp
Level 9 - 46,000gp
IF THE PCS ROB THE CASTLE
So, you have each PC with 9018gp.
Ima Goodperson with 41458gp.
Real Ultimatepower with 17318gp.
Iwishi Wazzareelclass comes in second with 15808gp.
Fighter MacBadfighter rocks in with 28,968gp.
IF THE PCS DO NOT ROB THE CASTLE BECAUSE THE OWNER IS STILL ALIVE, THEY KNOW THIS, AND SERIOUSLY ARE THEY STEALING HIS CLOTHES?
So, you have each PC with 2948gp.
Ima Goodperson with 20388gp.
Real Ultimatepower with 11248gp.
Iwishi Wazzareelclass comes in second with 9738gp.
Fighter MacBadfighter rocks in with 14,298gp.
THE DIFFERENCE
If the PCs rob the castle, some of them are going to pick up some cool items-- mostly casters. You can see Ima and Real got a lot of nice stuff, but had to share. A druid could conceivably end up with the staff of swarming insects and the rod of flame extinguishing AND the ivory goats in some parties, especially since the rod and the goats are, in my opinion, throwaway items that are cool but many power-hungry parties will want to sell to buy the Big Six. This could leave the druid well-off (73,000gp wealth) with other party members rocking numbers like Iwishi's (15,000gp). Compared to these cool items, there's not a single cool thing in here for someone who refuses to ride around a ridiculous goat.
If they don't rob the castle, the PCs will lose a lot of income. Even then, according to the book, the PCs who rob the castle are still 6000 to 8000 behind, again, because there are two high cost magical items in the book-- the staff of swarming insects and the rod of flame extinguishing-- but there isn't anything comparable unless your rogue is evil and mugs the homunculus for his ring.
In total, if your PCs aren't going to rob the castle, I suggest creating some sort of ambiguous "I am obviously not from here" group of enemies and placing 24,000gp of wealth on them for your melee characters.
But, honestly though, if the PCs sell the staff (11,400gp) and the rod (7500gp) and loot the castle...
Total 10,743
So, you have each PC with 13,743gp.
The lowest is Ima Goodperson with 34131gp.
Then, Real Ultimatepower with 24991gp.
Iwishi Wazzareelclass comes in second with 23482gp.
Finally, Fighter MacBadfighter rocks in with 28,042gp.
They are actually right on track.
Great summary Ice Titan.
You really put the nail in coffin for a lot of the issues I was having, and I appreciate the time you spent doing so.
Taking your suggestion, I might expand the horde of trolls. (only if they dont loot the castle.)
wheres the ring of the ram and the humanoid bane shapechanger dagger comming from?
wheres the ring of the ram and the humanoid bane shapechanger dagger comming from?
You've posted on other threads that you are a player in this adventure path and you're asking for specifics about where loot is coming from? :) How do you keep your DM knowledge separate from player knowledge? I think that would be infinitely challenging to do.
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wheres the ring of the ram and the humanoid bane shapechanger dagger comming from?You've posted on other threads that you are a player in this adventure path and you're asking for specifics about where loot is coming from? :) How do you keep your DM knowledge separate from player knowledge? I think that would be infinitely challenging to do.
"Ooops."
wheres the ring of the ram and the humanoid bane shapechanger dagger comming from?You've posted on other threads that you are a player in this adventure path and you're asking for specifics about where loot is coming from? :) How do you keep your DM knowledge separate from player knowledge? I think that would be infinitely challenging to do.
no, his "list" above of what this and that is in what module did not include these items (the ram and that dagger) yet, there are listed as being in possession of the characters (like the fighter and the rogue) so, my question was, where did they come from? (I was thinking maybe he had 'bought them' with money...)
I don't personally care where the treasure is in the modules, I've already missed stuff as it is (the wardens badge was apparently a rod of lesser ectoplasmic metamagic? erm, we left that there!)
You could increase the reward from Caromarc to offset what the PCs did not loot from his castle. He seems to have abundant means at his disposal, and the reward amount is arbitrary, so that seems like a good fudge point. Plus they saved his life and all.
That would make sense, and it a very easy way to get the PCs the gold for those GMs who are blessed with a party full of people who are morally upright citizens.
How I'm handling it:
I know there's a wand of Speak with Dead, and I'm handling it-- the Way's iconography of a gagged skeleton and their knowledge of Speak with Dead in addition to their dark and scary source material has led me to create a mook I can mix in to this module that I'm calling a "Speechless," a Whispering Way cultist that's removed their tongue and lower jaw so they can't be interrogated after death.
In the end, Caromarc is going to give the PCs "the key" to a safe that he has back in the castle-- one that the PCs will easily be able to identify as a safe that will flood with acid if it's tampered with heavily. Inside is going to be an absolute butt-ton worth of treasure, since I know my PCs won't rob the castle and none of them will be interested in the staff.
no, his "list" above of what this and that is in what module did not include these items (the ram and that dagger) yet, there are listed as being in possession of the characters (like the fighter and the rogue) so, my question was, where did they come from? (I was thinking maybe he had 'bought them' with money...)
The PCs "equip" the items that are most useful to them, and they're not sold. Instead, the things they may have equipped beforehand are sold, instead.
This happened a couple times throughout Harrowstone, but invisibly, since I didn't update it several times. I went back and changed the PCs gear to match any "upgrades" they found as they progressed through the adventure, selling their used gear.
no, his "list" above of what this and that is in what module did not include these items (the ram and that dagger) yet, there are listed as being in possession of the characters (like the fighter and the rogue) so, my question was, where did they come from? (I was thinking maybe he had 'bought them' with money...)
The PCs "equip" the items that are most useful to them, and they're not sold. Instead, the things they may have equipped beforehand are sold, instead.
This happened a couple times throughout Harrowstone, but invisibly, since I didn't update it several times. I went back and changed the PCs gear to match any "upgrades" they found as they progressed through the adventure, selling their used gear.
oh these are actual pcs? I thought this was all "hypothetical"?
oh these are actual pcs? I thought this was all "hypothetical"?
no, his "list" above of what this and that is in what module did not include these items (the ram and that dagger) yet, there are listed as being in possession of the characters (like the fighter and the rogue) so, my question was, where did they come from? (I was thinking maybe he had 'bought them' with money...)
The PCs "equip" the items that are most useful to them, and they're not sold. Instead, the things they may have equipped beforehand are sold, instead.
This happened a couple times throughout Harrowstone, but invisibly, since I didn't update it several times. I went back and changed the PCs gear to match any "upgrades" they found as they progressed through the adventure, selling their used gear.
Yes. The hypothetical PCs are equipping the items.
Yes. The hypothetical PCs are equipping the items.oh these are actual pcs? I thought this was all "hypothetical"?
no, his "list" above of what this and that is in what module did not include these items (the ram and that dagger) yet, there are listed as being in possession of the characters (like the fighter and the rogue) so, my question was, where did they come from? (I was thinking maybe he had 'bought them' with money...)
The PCs "equip" the items that are most useful to them, and they're not sold. Instead, the things they may have equipped beforehand are sold, instead.
This happened a couple times throughout Harrowstone, but invisibly, since I didn't update it several times. I went back and changed the PCs gear to match any "upgrades" they found as they progressed through the adventure, selling their used gear.
I know my pc's will not loot the Keep, so I'm redistributing it's content (or the equivalent of, changed a few items here and there to tailor to pcs a bit but without changing net value) between the reward from the Count,the Chymic Works, and the reward from Embreth at the conclusion.
Doing this for Broken Moon to see how it stands up.
First, let's create the integral 4 characters.
Fighter MacBadfighter, half-orc male fighter.
Ima Goodperson, human female cleric.
Real Ultimatepower, human male wizard.
Iwishi Wazzareelclass, gnome female rogue.
I'm going to be using the "perfect" version of Trial, where the PCs rob the castle and then sell the expensive items, bringing everyone close to WBL.
13,743gp -- from Trial of the Beast
1545gp -- from the Haunting of Harrowstone
Since Broken Moon is very high on "mundane" treasure-- +1 this, that and that over there-- I'm going to spend the PCs money to give a much better idea of what the PCs will buy or sell.
Each PC is buying a +1 ring of protection (2000gp) except for the wizard, who is buying +1 bracers of armor (1000gp).
Each PC is buying a +1 cloak of resistance (1000gp).
Each PC is buying a belt or headband of their primary statistic (4000gp).
Each martial PC is buying a +2 weapon (6000gp upgrade).
Each caster PC is buying a metamagic rod of lesser extend (3000gp)
and a +1 amulet of natural armor (2000gp).
Each PC is buying +1 magical armor (1000gp upgrade) except for the Wizard, who is buying spells (2000gp worth).
So, this is what they look like before they go into Broken Moon, after they conquer the last book and spend some time dallying about ignoring plot hooks.
x
fighter
+2 handaxe (8300gp)
+1 keen longsword (8300gp)
+1 cloak of resistance (1000gp)
+1 fullplate (2650gp)
belt of giant strength (4000gp)
+1 ring of protection (2000gp)
ring of the ram (8600gp)
mw silver war razor (300gp)
mw longsword (300gp)
TOTAL 35450
x
rogue
+1 humanoid (shapechanger) bane dagger (8300gp)
+2 heavy mace (8300gp)
+1 mithral chain shirt (2150gp)
+1 cloak of resistance (1000gp)
belt of dexterity (4000)
rope of climbing (2000gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
spyglass (1000gp)
TOTAL 27050gp.
x
wizard
+1 cloak of resistance (1000gp)
ring of protection +1 (2000gp)
+1 bracers of armor (1000gp)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
rod of ectoplasmic metamagic, lesser (3000gp)
rod of extend metamagic, lesser (3000gp)
headband of intelligence (4000)
masterwork flute (300gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
spells (3265gp worth)
wand of acid arrow (21 charges) (1890gp)
TOTAL 21755 + 2000~ gp
x
cleric
+1 breastplate (1750gp)
+1 ring of protection (2000gp)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2000)
rod of extend metamagic, lesser (3000)
+1 cloak of resistance (1000gp)
headband of wisdom (4000gp)
stone of alarm (2700gp)
smith's hammer (55gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
mw heavy mace (300gp)
wand of hold person (11 charges) (990gp)
TOTAL 18095 + 1000~ gp
As an aside, someone should have checked my numbers. I did something catastrophically wrong, I think, and the final tally was horribly, horribly off.
So, on to the moneying.
GOLD! And loot that sells for GOLD!
721
ring of feather falling (2200)
Real's bracers of armor +1 (500)
mw weapons (3300)
1000
canopic stone (14,400)
ring of protection +1 (1000)
130
+1 mithral chain shirt (1225)
+1 weapons (5500)
163
cloak of resistance +1 (500)
+1 armors (3500)
235
158
1800
250
2000
Ima's +1 breastplate (500)
whispering way cultist package (1900) x2 (3800)
whispering way curate package (2500) x4 (10000)
TOTAL 75001 / 4 = 18,750gp per PC
Utility Belt Pile
potion of heroism
scroll of remove disease
wand of spider climb (34 charges)
potion of cat's grace
2 potions of cure moderate wounds
scroll of dimension door
wand of acid arrow (11 charges)
2 potions of cure serious wounds
potion of lesser restoration
scroll of summon nature's ally III
4 vials of silversheen
potion of barkskin
120 alchemical silver crossbow bolts
20 silver arrows
wand of command undead (6 charges) x4
wand of animate dead (10 charges)
scroll of control undead
1st level pearl of power x4
3.5 vials of acid
marvelous pigments
fighter
+2 handaxe (8300gp)
+1 keen longsword (8300gp)
+1 cloak of resistance (1000gp)
+1 fullplate (2650gp)
+1 ring of protection (2000gp)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
belt of giant strength (4000gp)
ring of the ram (8600gp)
+1 composite longbow (+2 str) (2600)
mw silver war razor (300gp)
+1 silver longsword (2390gp)
TOTAL 42,140 + 18,750 = 60,890
rogue
+1 humanoid (shapechanger) bane dagger (8300gp)
+2 heavy mace (8300gp)
+1 mithral chain shirt (2150gp)
+2 cloak of resistance (4000gp)
belt of dexterity (4000)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
rope of climbing (2000gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
spyglass (1000gp)
lens of detection (3500gp)
TOTAL 35,550 + 18,750 = 54,300
wizard
+1 cloak of resistance (1000gp)
ring of protection +1 (2000gp)
+2 bracers of armor (4000gp)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
rod of ectoplasmic metamagic, lesser (3000gp)
rod of extend metamagic, lesser (3000gp)
headband of intelligence (4000)
masterwork flute (300gp)
+1 light crossbow (2300gp)
spells (3265gp worth) + spellbook
wand of acid arrow (38 charges) (3420gp)
rod of silent metamagic, lesser (3000gp)
TOTAL 30285 + 18,750 + 2000 = 52,035
cleric
+2 breastplate (4750gp)
+1 light steel shield (1150)
+1 ring of protection (2000gp)
+1 cloak of resistance (1000gp)
headband of wisdom (4000)
stone of alarm (2700gp)
clear spindle ioun stone (4000gp)
smith's hammer (55gp)
mw heavy crossbow (300gp)
mw heavy mace (300gp)
mw darkwood club (300gp)
wand of hold person (11 charges) (990gp)
TOTAL 21545 + 18,750 + 1000 = 41,295
Summary
PCs are looking good. WBL for level 9 is 46,000.
The only problem, is, well... check out their items before the adventure, and after.
I'll put the PCs at 7 next to them at 9 for you.
+2 handaxe (8300gp) +2 handaxe
+1 keen longsword (8300gp) +1 keen longsword
+1 cloak of resistance (1000gp) +1 cloak of resistance
+1 fullplate (2650gp) +1 fullplate
+1 ring of protection (2000gp) +1 ring of protection
amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
belt of giant strength (4000gp) belt of giant strength
ring of the ram (8600gp) ring of the ram
+1 composite longbow (+2 str) (2600) [empty]
mw silver war razor (300gp) mw silver war razor
+1 silver longsword (2390gp) mw longsword
There's really nothing that powerful in the entire book, and everything is kind of bland, seen it before, bought it with my money kind of loot. That's fine, as adventures near the center of Paizo APs traditionally don't include many fantastic items but a multitude of lesser items so that the PCs can all have Big Six items so they're not underpowered, but it just takes the mystique out of the game a bit, here. At least the PCs are getting a lot of spreadable wealth so they can buy pretty much anything they want going into 10th level-- 18,000gp is a lot, and they should be able to upgrade up a lot of gear with that.
My one big thing is that there's no "Wow!" loot in the entire book, but I'm running 6 players anyways, so it'll be fine if I add in about 22,000 gold worth of hotness. On that note, here's the total wealth of every party member so you can see how much GP you need to add if you want to run more than 5 PCs.
The Haunting of Harrowstone
30,590. +6000gp per player.
The Trial of the Beast
105,350. +16,000gp per player.
Broken Moon
208,520. +22,000gp per player.
As a final note, I'm unsure if what happens at the Stairs of the Moon should be factored into WBL, but I didn't. A lot-- and I mean a lot of characters-- aren't going to get any benefit from it, and it'll be a couple levels before they can take advantage of it.
Doing this for Broken Moon to see how it stands up. . . .
IT, these are very useful. Would you consider breaking them out into a separate post instead of having all 3 of the (so far) released adventures as replies to a thread about the 2nd module being light on treasure?
I ask because I lost track of this post for a while until you reposted today - I hadn't looked at it since we're still on the Harrowing.
Maybe a thread about the breakdown of treasure in the entire adventure path, where you'll come back and continue to append as more modules are released? :)
Just an idea. I find this very helpful.
It occurs to me, that this thread is essentially giving us pregens for the AP. From a loot-side only, yes, but that was always the trickiest part, IMO.
Thanks!