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So, last night one of my players came up with a very creative use of the "Create Pit" spell. I let him have it since it was a cool idea, but I'm wondering what the "correct" interpretation of this is.
Here's the scenario: the party needed to get up a cliff and didn't want to make the climb. So our Summoner cast Create Pit at the top of the cliff, lowering the top of the cliff to ground level. Everyone stepped into the pit, and when it wore off, they were raised up to the original top of the cliff!
I don't see anything in the spell description that would indicate that you cannot create a pit right at the edge of a surface. The spell merely states that the thing on which you are trying to create the pit must be a horizontal surface "of sufficient size."
Thoughts?
So, last night one of my players came up with a very creative use of the "Create Pit" spell. I let him have it since it was a cool idea, but I'm wondering what the "correct" interpretation of this is.
Here's the scenario: the party needed to get up a cliff and didn't want to make the climb. So our Summoner cast Create Pit at the top of the cliff, lowering the top of the cliff to ground level. Everyone stepped into the pit, and when it wore off, they were raised up to the original top of the cliff!
I don't see anything in the spell description that would indicate that you cannot create a pit right at the edge of a surface. The spell merely states that the thing on which you are trying to create the pit must be a horizontal surface "of sufficient size."
Thoughts?
Very creative use of a spell. I would definitely let that work.
Very creative use!
Does the spell state that it actually lowers and raises, or is there suddenly a pit, then suddenly not a pit when it expires? If the latter, they might experience shunting ...
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The only issue is that the "pit" is extradimensional. You can only enter it through the portal (that is the circular opening created on the surface). It doesn't actually alter the topography of the area around it, so thematically, your player's trick wouldn't work. It even specifically states you could open a 30' deep pit on the deck of a ship. The implication is that the people on the decks below it would never know and would not be affected (nor could they enter the pit and be "risen up" to the deck above).
Thats hilarious and I would allow it personally.
Course, nothing about how FAST the pit is made OR reverts (considering the pit appears in a single round.....)
Very ingenuitive, shame that for reasons other have talked about, it does not work like that.
if the spell did that, it would have to be a significantly higher level I'd think.
Well, likely they probably shouldn't have been able to do it as you need line of sight.
SRD[/url]]You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
They likely weren't able to see the top of the cliff (they can see the side but not the top). So this particular case is not legit. Also the pit would only lower the cliff by at most 30 ft so wouldn't necessarily bring a big cliff to ground level even if they got line of sight.
It doesn't work. The pit is extra dimensional. Similar to a portable hole. The inside of the pit is on another plane of existence.
You could probably use a counter-weight system, though...
Get something heavy on top of the cliff with a rope attached.
Create Pit under the item, which drops, and correspondingly lifts a member of the party.
Though, if you could do all that, you could probably just climb the rope...
Funny idea out of this for a high magic setting:
In an area where a major trade route could be significantly shortened if you could have your wagons scale a large cliff instead of going around. A cunning entrepreneur has hired a mage to Stone Shape a number of very sturdy 10x10 outcroppings on the cliff side at 10' intervals horizontally and 30' intervals vertically. He then built 10'x10'x30' scaffolds with 15'x20' platforms resting on top of each ledge, attached to the cliff by vertical rails that run from the ledge to the top of the platform. His final bit of preparation was to commission a pair of unlimited use, use-activated magic items: Create Pit(caster level 10ish), and Feather Fall (Caster level high enough for colossal).
He then opens up shop, ferrying wagons up and down the cliff by casting Create Pit on each ledge, and Feather Fall on each platform in sequence. As the pit appears the platform gently lowers down into it along its rails, and and when the pit vanishes the platforms gently rise up level with the next one, creating a sort of waterless lock.
After the initial investment labour is cheap, since anyone can use the magic items, security is the main cost, and the gold flows in.
the problem with the pit idea is it doesn't work. create pit creates an extra dimensional space. you can cast it on a boat the pit won't sink the ship. if you cast it at the top of a cliff it would simply create an extra dimensional space.
If you had one wall of the pit flush with the cliff edge, thereby creating the absence of a fourth wall, I would say that you attempted to cast it on an area that wasn't of the appropriate size (part of it is effectively going over the cliff) and the entire spell fails).
You wouldn't even get to the extra dimensional bit in my games under the proposed scenario.
Funny idea out of this for a high magic setting:
In an area where a major trade route could be significantly shortened if you could have your wagons scale a large cliff instead of going around. A cunning entrepreneur has hired a mage to Stone Shape a number of very sturdy 10x10 outcroppings on the cliff side at 10' intervals horizontally and 30' intervals vertically. He then built 10'x10'x30' scaffolds with 15'x20' platforms resting on top of each ledge, attached to the cliff by vertical rails that run from the ledge to the top of the platform. His final bit of preparation was to commission a pair of unlimited use, use-activated magic items: Create Pit(caster level 10ish), and Feather Fall (Caster level high enough for colossal).He then opens up shop, ferrying wagons up and down the cliff by casting Create Pit on each ledge, and Feather Fall on each platform in sequence. As the pit appears the platform gently lowers down into it along its rails, and and when the pit vanishes the platforms gently rise up level with the next one, creating a sort of waterless lock.
After the initial investment labour is cheap, since anyone can use the magic items, security is the main cost, and the gold flows in.
+1 for solving the extra-dimensional space problem. A genius solution in my opinion. I'll have to run that by my DM and see if he smacks me for it or not
+1 for solving the extra-dimensional space problem. A genius solution in my opinion. I'll have to run that by my DM and see if he smacks me for it or not
Stickiest rules point I could see was weather or not feather fall would work, I figured that the wagon on the platform should fall under the "plus carried equipment" restriction if you pay for caster levels up to gargantuan or colossal, but that would be subject to GM interpretation.
Funny idea out of this for a high magic setting:
In an area where a major trade route could be significantly shortened if you could have your wagons scale a large cliff instead of going around. A cunning entrepreneur has hired a mage to Stone Shape a number of very sturdy 10x10 outcroppings on the cliff side at 10' intervals horizontally and 30' intervals vertically. He then built 10'x10'x30' scaffolds with 15'x20' platforms resting on top of each ledge, attached to the cliff by vertical rails that run from the ledge to the top of the platform. His final bit of preparation was to commission a pair of unlimited use, use-activated magic items: Create Pit(caster level 10ish), and Feather Fall (Caster level high enough for colossal).He then opens up shop, ferrying wagons up and down the cliff by casting Create Pit on each ledge, and Feather Fall on each platform in sequence. As the pit appears the platform gently lowers down into it along its rails, and and when the pit vanishes the platforms gently rise up level with the next one, creating a sort of waterless lock.
After the initial investment labour is cheap, since anyone can use the magic items, security is the main cost, and the gold flows in.
Its a cute idea and you could create a unique spell to accomplish it, however it will not work with create pit. The pit is extra dimensional. You'll create a featherfalling platform into a hole to another dimension.
Of course an easier way to accomplish this is to have a levitate @ will item and attach it to a chain to keep the platform that it's levitating by the cliff wall.
Since Create pit is worded. You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extra-dimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size.
Could you make a cheap portable hole trick out of this that would only last rounds?
I am thinking you could cast create pit on a Blanket or Sheet of the correct size laid out on a horizontal surface and then fold it up and take it with you.
Or fly up in the sky and open it up upside down and make everyone inside fall out?
What do you guys think?
-Venom
Its a cute idea and you could create a unique spell to accomplish it, however it will not work with create pit. The pit is extra dimensional. You'll create a featherfalling platform into a hole to another dimension.Funny idea out of this for a high magic setting:
In an area where a major trade route could be significantly shortened if you could have your wagons scale a large cliff instead of going around. A cunning entrepreneur has hired a mage to Stone Shape a number of very sturdy 10x10 outcroppings on the cliff side at 10' intervals horizontally and 30' intervals vertically. He then built 10'x10'x30' scaffolds with 15'x20' platforms resting on top of each ledge, attached to the cliff by vertical rails that run from the ledge to the top of the platform. His final bit of preparation was to commission a pair of unlimited use, use-activated magic items: Create Pit(caster level 10ish), and Feather Fall (Caster level high enough for colossal).He then opens up shop, ferrying wagons up and down the cliff by casting Create Pit on each ledge, and Feather Fall on each platform in sequence. As the pit appears the platform gently lowers down into it along its rails, and and when the pit vanishes the platforms gently rise up level with the next one, creating a sort of waterless lock.
After the initial investment labour is cheap, since anyone can use the magic items, security is the main cost, and the gold flows in.
Cast Gate at the bottom of each level, between the outside and inside of the pit.
Funny idea out of this for a high magic setting:
In an area where a major trade route could be significantly shortened if you could have your wagons scale a large cliff instead of going around. A cunning entrepreneur has hired a mage to Stone Shape a number of very sturdy 10x10 outcroppings on the cliff side at 10' intervals horizontally and 30' intervals vertically. He then built 10'x10'x30' scaffolds with 15'x20' platforms resting on top of each ledge, attached to the cliff by vertical rails that run from the ledge to the top of the platform. His final bit of preparation was to commission a pair of unlimited use, use-activated magic items: Create Pit(caster level 10ish), and Feather Fall (Caster level high enough for colossal).He then opens up shop, ferrying wagons up and down the cliff by casting Create Pit on each ledge, and Feather Fall on each platform in sequence. As the pit appears the platform gently lowers down into it along its rails, and and when the pit vanishes the platforms gently rise up level with the next one, creating a sort of waterless lock.
After the initial investment labour is cheap, since anyone can use the magic items, security is the main cost, and the gold flows in.
Its a cute idea and you could create a unique spell to accomplish it, however it will not work with create pit. The pit is extra dimensional. You'll create a featherfalling platform into a hole to another dimension.
Of course an easier way to accomplish this is to have a levitate @ will item and attach it to a chain to keep the platform that it's levitating by the cliff wall.
Do it with counterweights. Set things up so that you have a heavy weight on each stone ledge, attached by thick ropes/cables to a platform on the next ledge down. Cast create pit under the counterweight - it will disappear into the extra dimensional space, lifting the platform.
Its a cute idea and you could create a unique spell to accomplish it, however it will not work with create pit. The pit is extra dimensional. You'll create a featherfalling platform into a hole to another dimension.Of course an easier way to accomplish this is to have a levitate @ will item and attach it to a chain to keep the platform that it's levitating by the cliff wall.
Why wouldn't it work? Yes the pit is extra dimensional, which means that the interior occupies no physical space on the material plane. I n all other ways the pit acts as a 10'x10' 30' deep pit. Each platform has a scaffold tower just wide enough to fit into the pit, and just tall enough to stick out a couple inches. The platform is wider than the mouth of the pit and sit just above the opening. The feather fall is there so that the tower floats gently to the bottom instead of crashing down, then the spell states that when the spell ends everything inside rises gently back to the surface.
TL:DR version: Yes the platform is feather falling into a pit into another dimension that has set physical walls and floor.
Anyway I know that this probably isn't the most practical solution to the problem, it's just a fun thought exercise based on the OPs idea, and no you couldn't just do it with levitate. A CL20 Levitate can lift 2000 pounds... not enough for a well laden trader's wagon. Assuming that you could get a load on an object (a base assumption that I've stated is central to this all along), starting from 0 the size adjustments, and minimum size load multiplier(bipedal) for colossal net you a max load of 33,280 pounds.
I am thinking you could cast create pit on a Blanket or Sheet of the correct size laid out on a horizontal surface and then fold it up and take it with you. Or fly up in the sky and open it up upside down and make everyone inside fall out?
It's an interesting idea and I don't see why one couldn't cast the spell atop a blanket or tarp if it were stretched out so as to be a horizontal surface of sufficient size to accommodate the spell's parameters. The blanket, along with its extra-dimensional pit could even be picked up and moved so long as it's kept horizontal. The only hiccup would come when trying to fold or flip the blanket; once the surface is anything other than horizontal it ceases to be viable for the spell to continue functioning. At least, that's the way I read it.
It brings up an interesting question however; could a create pit spell be cast upside-down on a horizontal ceiling? Admittedly, I'm hard pressed to think of a reason why it'd be desirable to do so. Perhaps to create a space indoors or underground into which a reverse gravity spell could be cast. Bonus points for casting a second pit on the floor beneath the upside-down one so as to make a target fall twice as far once the reverse gravity effect has ended.
Its a cute idea and you could create a unique spell to accomplish it, however it will not work with create pit. The pit is extra dimensional. You'll create a featherfalling platform into a hole to another dimension.Of course an easier way to accomplish this is to have a levitate @ will item and attach it to a chain to keep the platform that it's levitating by the cliff wall.
Why wouldn't it work? Yes the pit is extra dimensional, which means that the interior occupies no physical space on the material plane. I n all other ways the pit acts as a 10'x10' 30' deep pit. Each platform has a scaffold tower just wide enough to fit into the pit, and just tall enough to stick out a couple inches. The platform is wider than the mouth of the pit and sit just above the opening. The feather fall is there so that the tower floats gently to the bottom instead of crashing down, then the spell states that when the spell ends everything inside rises gently back to the surface.
TL:DR version: Yes the platform is feather falling into a pit into another dimension that has set physical walls and floor.
Anyway I know that this probably isn't the most practical solution to the problem, it's just a fun thought exercise based on the OPs idea, and no you couldn't just do it with levitate. A CL20 Levitate can lift 2000 pounds... not enough for a well laden trader's wagon. Assuming that you could get a load on an object (a base assumption that I've stated is central to this all along), starting from 0 the size adjustments, and minimum size load multiplier(bipedal) for colossal net you a max load of 33,280 pounds.
I wasn't understanding the visual. I get it now. It's be feasible, but overly complex. I suppose it would vary greatly depending on the campaign specific cost/benefit ratio.
I am thinking you could cast create pit on a Blanket or Sheet of the correct size laid out on a horizontal surface and then fold it up and take it with you. Or fly up in the sky and open it up upside down and make everyone inside fall out?It's an interesting idea and I don't see why one couldn't cast the spell atop a blanket or tarp if it were stretched out so as to be a horizontal surface of sufficient size to accommodate the spell's parameters. The blanket, along with its extra-dimensional pit could even be picked up and moved so long as it's kept horizontal. The only hiccup would come when trying to fold or flip the blanket; once the surface is anything other than horizontal it ceases to be viable for the spell to continue functioning. At least, that's the way I read it.
It brings up an interesting question however; could a create pit spell be cast upside-down on a horizontal ceiling? Admittedly, I'm hard pressed to think of a reason why it'd be desirable to do so. Perhaps to create a space indoors or underground into which a reverse gravity spell could be cast. Bonus points for casting a second pit on the floor beneath the upside-down one so as to make a target fall twice as far once the reverse gravity effect has ended.
I like the create pit on the ceiling idea. I think ti might require a spell craft check but still might be loads of fun.
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I am thinking you could cast create pit on a Blanket or Sheet of the correct size laid out on a horizontal surface and then fold it up and take it with you. Or fly up in the sky and open it up upside down and make everyone inside fall out?It's an interesting idea and I don't see why one couldn't cast the spell atop a blanket or tarp if it were stretched out so as to be a horizontal surface of sufficient size to accommodate the spell's parameters. The blanket, along with its extra-dimensional pit could even be picked up and moved so long as it's kept horizontal. The only hiccup would come when trying to fold or flip the blanket; once the surface is anything other than horizontal it ceases to be viable for the spell to continue functioning. At least, that's the way I read it.
It brings up an interesting question however; could a create pit spell be cast upside-down on a horizontal ceiling? Admittedly, I'm hard pressed to think of a reason why it'd be desirable to do so. Perhaps to create a space indoors or underground into which a reverse gravity spell could be cast. Bonus points for casting a second pit on the floor beneath the upside-down one so as to make a target fall twice as far once the reverse gravity effect has ended.
Set up a series of Contingencies:
Step on that spot on the floor, Create Pit beneath you.
Land at the bottom of the pit, Create Pit on the ceiling and Reverse Gravity at the bottom of the floor pit.
Land at the "bottom" of the ceiling pit, Reverse Gravity at the "bottom" of ceiling pit.
Lather, rinse, repeat. Bonus points for a Wall of Stone around the pits in the original room.
It brings up an interesting question however; could a create pit spell be cast upside-down on a horizontal ceiling? Admittedly, I'm hard pressed to think of a reason why it'd be desirable to do so.
This would be a good way to buy yourself several rounds if you get caught in a crushing ceiling trap. If you're lucky, the trap is set to raise the ceiling again long before your upside down pit spell spell's duration ceases.